sanikleen ([info]sanikleen) wrote in [info]zombie_survival,
@ 2008-12-19 10:19:00
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One of the most common assumptions (I think) of the post-apocalypse genre is that there will be a substantial percentage of survivors who will become practicing psychopaths. I'm talking about individuals whose violent methods go beyond understandable (though not necessarily condonable) practices, such as looting, stealing, and robbery, required for survival under such grim conditions. People who engage in violence for the sake of violence.

Do you think this is simply a convention of the genre, or an accurate portrayal of what would likely happen? A recent example would be the Raiders in Fallout 3. There are also a few good ones in The Road (highly recommended, and no worries, the "oprah's book club" sticker peals off!)

The phalanx following carried spears or lances tasseled in ribbons, the long blades hammered out of trucksprings in some crude forge up-country. Behind them came wagons drawn by slaves in harness and piled with goods of war and after that the women, perhaps a dozen in number, some of them pregnant, and lastly a supplementary consort of catamites illclothed against the cold and fitted in dogcollars and yoked each to each."

And later, describing humans kept as livestock:

Huddled against the back wall were naked people, male and female, all trying to hide, shielding their faces with their hands. On the mattress lay a man with his legs gone to the hip and the stumps of them blackened and burnt. The smell was hideous

The motorcycle gang in Dawn of the Dead is a good example of who I wouldn't include in this group. Honestly, they did nothing that your average person wouldn't be compelled to do if the dead would happen to rise. They're no more morally questionable than our heroes, who even fired the first shot.

So, do you believe that a lot of 'normal' people would be driven to atrocity for pleasure, or would a sense of decency and civility prevail in most of us?



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[info]theperipheral
2008-12-19 05:56 pm UTC (link)
I heard this story this morning. http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090105/thompson
So I have no doubt that complete lawlessness is going to break out.

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[info]silverthorne
2008-12-19 06:01 pm UTC (link)
I think that what will happen is that those already predisposed to such things will feel less constrained and won't be likely to hide it, since the usual social restraints (police, the courts, etc) will likely not be in place anymore. It's not that 'good people will go bad' so much as 'bad people' won't feel a need to hide what they are and what they'd normally do in a given situation, because there'd be virtually no repercussions for indulging.

So it would seem like there were more people like that in a post-apocalyptic situation...but not really. It's just that they'd quit wearing their social masks because they don't need to do so.

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[info]oniaka
2008-12-19 06:20 pm UTC (link)
One can never truely know until that day comes. But, take a page from Nazi Germany. Look what was done there. It might be less organized. And it wont have the technology. But it will be just as, if not more, atrocious. It will probably even be MORE brutal. After all, "normal" soldiers, and civies, did horrible and unspeakable things to others then, and there was STILL law and some accountability. What would it be like if there were NO law, no accoutability, and anyone/everyone were "fair game"?

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[info]sanikleen
2008-12-19 06:38 pm UTC (link)
You know I did have an argument about how war atrocities are allowed to happen as a result of very ordered circumstances (a strict chain of command, diminishing anybody's sense of accountability and whatnot) but meh, you're probably right.

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[info]holyhour
2008-12-19 06:36 pm UTC (link)
imho, all humanity is inheritantly evil. Without society's forced morals/expectations, and mandatory education [domestication] we would be no better then wild animals.
As is, wild animals don't have the urge to murder/rape without reason/need.

It'd be inevitable for humanity to divide after said apocalypse.
Those who wish to fix the world, and those who wish to destroy it without consequence.

As for said brutalities, we did not need an apocalypse to witness such.
The concentration camps of WWII showed the entire world that without law and morality, man will do whatever he pleases to another for any reason.

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[info]sanikleen
2008-12-19 06:44 pm UTC (link)
The thing is, though, is that the holocaust happened in a world of very strict laws and morals (not the correct ones obviously). It couldn't have happened without method and order. Regardless though, you're probably right.

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[info]boundfate
2008-12-19 07:52 pm UTC (link)
I agree with you. WWII is a horrible example of what people will do when given the chance because of the way the atrocities were committed. The nazi's whole goal was to reduce each individual's personal sense of responsibility until they felt that they were simply a cog in an unbreakable machine.

If people want a good example of how humanity acts with no rules there are plenty, but Nazi Germany is not one of them. Just look at the current human slave trade that is in every major city, or dog fighting, or the genocides in africa. Hell, look at the rioting during katrina.

I think that humans are inherently lazy and selfish. Societies succeed by making it easier and in human's best interest to be good. Remove that drive and the vast majority of humans will rationalize whatever they need to in order to make their lives easier.

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[info]epic_life_fail
2008-12-19 06:57 pm UTC (link)
How many people in the city have actual skills that can be applied without technology? Can most people you know make bread from scratch? Cook a meal using cast iron cookware over a fire? Build a fire that will withstand wind? Build a shelter out of a tarp, sticks, & string? Churn butter? Use a map, compass, and a ruler to figure out which way to travel? Diagnose and treat minor illnesses with herbs? Make lye soap from ashes and water? Fish and trap game for food? Harvest crops successfully? The list goes on and on. If people enmass cannot support themselves then they will band together and survive by taking what other people have. It's going to happen. Perfect example: any hurricane that devistated the southern states, ever.

If you or your friends don't know any of these skills please learn them now. I would suggest the e-novel "Lights Out" on everyone's reading list. A guy I know wrote that ebook that was published online and is free to download via PDF. It's a great look at how people act when they don't know how to produce things themselves and there's no technology.

Edited at 2008-12-19 06:58 pm UTC

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[info]yo_ghurt
2008-12-19 07:29 pm UTC (link)
What's the author of Lights Out's name? I just googled it but don't really know where to start :)

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[info]hippypaul
2008-12-19 07:49 pm UTC (link)
Are we talking about this

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=W5JUiovtA1QC&dq=Lights+Out&printsec=frontcover&source=bll&ots=-fYzAbbA4s&sig=TMlTOuXXDCXAiRI0_PwsCFcBJ00&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=13&ct=result#PPP1,M1

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try this link!!
[info]epic_life_fail
2008-12-19 08:25 pm UTC (link)
http://www.survivalmonkey.com/Lights%20Out.htm

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Re: try this link!!
[info]hippypaul
2008-12-19 08:32 pm UTC (link)
Better link than mine use this one

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Re: try this link!!
[info]epic_life_fail
2008-12-19 08:42 pm UTC (link)
what you linked is a book about 'what if the lights went out' but I linked the novel about a texas community. Two different things! =D

Both are great examples, but the novel is a fun read.

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Re: try this link!!
[info]hippypaul
2008-12-19 09:20 pm UTC (link)
Thanks!

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Re: try this link!!
[info]yo_ghurt
2008-12-20 01:46 am UTC (link)
thank you!

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[info]hekidanjo
2008-12-19 08:44 pm UTC (link)
Here is a lot of your answer.
First, we remove all the normal restraints on sociopathic behavior, then you add a whole bunch of people who KNOW they are dead if they don't steal what they need. You'll then see all manner of psychological adaptations so people can manage to continue living at the expense of others. At that point expect to see theft, murder and rape become a form of entertainment.

Hopefully the kind of people who have no skills to adapt to a world with much less technology will be the same kind of people who aren't very clever nor very good at organization. Figure some will be and that first year is really gonna suck.

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[info]orochiyamazaki
2008-12-19 07:39 pm UTC (link)
One has only to look at the past and present turmoil in depressed nations, in which power struggles leave most ordinary citizens to fend for themselves or at the mercy of criminals and rebels, to get an idea of plausible worst-case scenarios. In such scenarios, a majority of people would likely get caught up under the violence - either recruited, forced to retreat, or killed - of the more brazen individuals seeking to gain power over the area. A modest sized militia, facing little resistance, can overtake decent sized area, and force its population to comply or die. I guess it's a matter of where such militias would likely form, and how far they can spread their influence.

Generally speaking, whoever has the strongest force makes the rules. An area with a high density of criminals or would-be criminals may be in for a rough time. An area with sparse population of generally-moral people, who can defend themselves relatively well, may remain pretty civil.

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[info]hippypaul
2008-12-19 07:46 pm UTC (link)
We have a lot of people in our society that feel powerless for one reason or another. A firearm will give you a very real sense of power. It is very easy to get yourself into a situation with a firearm were you have to use it or lose it. Some people will find pleasure in having used a firearm most will not. The people who find pleasure will want that good feeling to continue.
I think it was Jeff Cooper who remarked that since you can not take guns from bad people you should ensure that as many people as possible had guns and count on the fact that there are more good people than bad people.
If we have a general breakdown in society the good will try to be good. Those who are not good will act in as bad a way as they think they can get away with.

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[info]maeths
2008-12-19 08:20 pm UTC (link)
Having read enough about what has happened in places like Bosnia and Cambodia, I have very little doubt that things are going to get pretty terrible before we get our shit together.
Oh, hell. One account from the San Fransisco earthquake (1906) where they had helped a young lady to a hospital who had three of her fingers cut off and her ear lobes torn when a looter had gotten impatient in stealing her jewelry.

We can all try to behave as civil as possible, but we can't take for granted that common moral beliefs are at all universal.

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[info]azuresorrow
2008-12-20 02:33 am UTC (link)
I do think people tend to make this kind of stuff way over the top than it would realistically be.

Yeah, there'll be looters, psychos, etc...

But I think overall most people will at least be decent human beings to each other.

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[info]madcap72
2008-12-21 12:15 pm UTC (link)
Those decent human beings are the one who will be controlled by the first to organize, or killed by the first to turn violent.

There will be a middle ground, but not for long.

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[info]azuresorrow
2008-12-21 04:22 pm UTC (link)
That implies that the "first to organize" won't be decent humans beings as well?

I disagree, I think times of calamity and strife causes people to "come together," especially in the face of an outside threat/enemy.

It has been hypothesized that the only thing that could end all war among humans would be such a threat; like alien invasion, or in this case, zombie attack.

I think *most* people who would become looters/psychos would be those who have a criminal bent to begin with; and that's a small percentage of the population.

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[info]madcap72
2008-12-22 02:13 pm UTC (link)
Here's the thing, at least here in the states, if something like a zombie attack, even major civil unrest, pandemic virus, anything that knocks out the Government and state services, people won't know what to do. It happens ALL the time on small scales, people wait around for the State or Gov. To help. Look at Hurricane Katrina, perfect example. People use to being spoon fed, couldn't deal with an emergency. From the State leaders, down to joe blow sitting on the rooftop.

The quickest groups to organize, will be the people who band together knowing the Government can't, or won't help (or that "help" would be a hindrance). Not saying they won't be "decent" people, but they'll be people who know what they need, how fast they need it, and that their survival is more important than a person who has what they need, but won't hand it over.

It won't be like movies, if a small group of people are sitting on a gold mine of equipment, people aren't going to spend time bartering with them, making pacts or agreements. It'll be volly fire from concealed positions, or knives in the middle of the night.

Survivors will keep on surviving, doing what they have to, everyone else won't.

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[info]azuresorrow
2008-12-22 10:25 pm UTC (link)
Katrina is actually a perfect example of the opposite thing; many people turned to looting,etc. But what percentage of the population was that? Most people didn't. And even the looters almost always only looted shops and stores, not other survivors.

Yeah, there was a lot of chaos and confusion during Katrina, but how may reports of people attacking other survivors were there? It's also not like anyone started a fiefdom in the superdome and enslaved the refugees taking shelter there.

Think about yourself and most people you know. Would you attack and kill other people and take their stuff? Would most people you know be capable of murder? I'm not talking about killing, like in self defense or something, but actually intentionally killing someone who means you no harm. Would you, for example, choke an old lady to death with your bare hands to take her cigarettes and prescription meds?

Well, some some people would be capable of these things, but that's a small number compared to the number of people who wouldn't. And if you and most people you know are the type of people described above... I sure as hell don't want to meet you psychos.

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[info]madcap72
2008-12-22 11:47 pm UTC (link)
Yes they did set up their little fiefdom, The Governor allowed both police, and worse, private contractors; to raid private citizens both to force them out of their homes, and confiscate their legally owned weapons. Constitutional Amendments violated? 1st, 2nd, and 4th. I was down there for Katrina, and Rita. During the evacuation from Rita, I had 3-4 instances where people attempted to steal my spare gas tanks (even though they were empty). The only reason they didn't was my use of persuasion.

The only reason things didn't get really nasty, is the fact that it was a localized, short lived event, with lots of media attention.

What would you do, if you and a group had been on the run for months, little food, water or sleep with a bunch of monsters chasing you, and you came across a group of refugees with everything you need, and yet they look like they'll just kill you and take your stuff instead of share?

As far as myself and my friends? They have my back, I have theirs. They know if anything crazy ever happens, everyone heads to my folks house. We all have CB's from when we were young, and couldn't afford cell phones, and we all still have them ready to set back up. Although my time spent in Marine Corps Infantry does not carry over well to most civilian jobs, it does for situations involving keeping me and mine alive.

There is a point of diminishing returns in regard to helping people.

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[info]azuresorrow
2008-12-23 12:02 am UTC (link)
The Governor allowed both police, and worse, private contractors; to raid private citizens both to force them out of their homes, and confiscate their legally owned weapons

How is that a fiefdom, exactly?

And just to be clear, I'm not saying that Katrina wasn't a bad situation or that the government handled it perfect peachy keen, as obviously wasn't the case, but I am pointing out this - what actual percentage of people turned into murderous take-what-I-want-kill-who-gets-in my-way desociliazed barbaric marauders? I guarantee there much more non-marauders than marauders.


  • What would you do, if you and a group had been on the run for months, little food, water or sleep with a bunch of monsters chasing you, and you came across a group of refugees with everything you need, and yet they look like they'll just kill you and take your stuff instead of share?


  • Well, first, I'll thank God that most of people aren't like these psychos, next, we'll defend ourselves and our resources to the best of our ability. Like I said, killing like in self defense and stuff like that is not the same as intentional murder.

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    [info]maggiebloome
    2008-12-20 07:12 am UTC (link)
    Disaster and social collapse do weird things to people. A really large percentage of the scaffolding that keeps us sane normally is pretty much being surrounded by people in some semblance of order. Losing the entire structure of society casts you adrift, you have to jettison bits and pieces of your personality right and left, it's easy to lose something crucial by accident. And then there's the people who were ALWAYS kinda sociopathic but never really had the opportunity to do anything harmful because of it, the people whose grip on sanity was tenuous in the first place and just needed a last straw, the kind of people who keep eighteen different kinds of guns and an axe collection and believe in applied survival of the fittest...

    And speaking of the latter group, I'm sad to say that the psychopaths are just plain more likely to survive a zombie apocalypse than most pacifists, philosophers and just plain nice people. So the ratio of crazy in post-Z-day society is going to be somewhat higher than normal.

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    [info]faceless_bride
    2008-12-21 02:07 am UTC (link)
    I read this post to my husband and he felt a major issue was not being addressed yet by commenters.

    What happens when someone gets a hit of acid that really fucks with their head? Some of them have hallucinations that can last in their pillow lined cells forever. These people tend to act irrationally, go beserk when a stray hair falls into their eye, and generally nice people turn into very unpleasant ones all because of seeing something that could be unreal.

    James has just gone to his best friend Carl's funeral. The whole service felt unreal. Carl's fiancee sobbing, the family huddled in tears, and the sudden scream of the officiant being gnawed on. Can you say PCP?

    People go insane while on drugs because they see flying pigs while tripping. Imagine waking up one day and the dead are not just walking, but running and eating Bob the neighbor. Most people would lose their minds after Z-Day... it'd just be too much to handle.

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    [info]ericana
    2008-12-23 11:11 pm UTC (link)
    i think those people will be the first to die, they'll wander into an area where they'll be vulnerable and get gnawed by bob the neighbor.

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