Vahn Malice ([info]vahnm) wrote in [info]yaoi,
@ 2007-01-08 15:49:00
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Current mood: angry

A cure? What the...?
Since it holds some relevence to the yaoi community, I decided that I'd post it here.

A friend of mine sent this link to me, and I was actually really disturbed and shocked when I read it. I was outraged, and I figured... Well, there might be people who promote forms of homosexuality out there that haven't read or heard of this yet.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/printFriendly/0,,1-210-2524408-523,00.html
"Science told: hands off gay sheep"

In short: scientists think they've discovered how to "cure" homosexuality.

Sad, isn't it? Maybe someone needs to remind them that there's nothing to cure.

From the article: "Peter Tatchell, the gay rights campaigner, said: “These experiments echo Nazi research in the early 1940s which aimed at eradicating homosexuality. They stink of eugenics. There is a danger that extreme homophobic regimes may try to use these experimental results to change the orientation of gay people.”"

EDIT: Here's my point of view in full.
I like men. I always have. I'd rather be gay than straight, even though there's so much prejudice. I found the thought that my breathren of science would even attempt this quite appauling. In fact, while I was reading this, I was actually reminded of the 3rd X-Men movie, which I found akward. However, I found it far more disturbing that they believe it's rightous. Yes, there are some who don't want to be gay, but I hate the idea of a "cure." You can scientifically cure a lot of things. However, many things that might not be a medical condition or problem are "curable," which I find quite disturbing, that, rather than going after something terrible, such as fixing the mind of a rapist or a pedophile, they'd go after funtional homosexual humans.




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[info]raetehytan
2007-01-08 09:04 pm UTC (link)
Being a biologist, I'm all for the research and finding out how things work- it's quite interesting, really. But the data found could be horribly abused. Choosing the sexuality of your child? That's just sick to me...

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[info]ashleyvsdestiny
2007-01-08 09:16 pm UTC (link)
You state that there is nothing to cure. If that is true, than no cure will be found. If they find a cure, then I guess there was something to cure, wasn't there?

Also, there are homosexuals out there who probably wouldn't mind being cured.

On a side note, it's funny, no one would complain of someone was looking at a cure for heterosexuality.

Though it seems silly to me that you would even appeal to the yaoi community on the topic of gay rights when yaoi has very little to do with gay rights or homosexaulity at all. It's just heterosexuality played out with two boys. Somehow, I doubt in the general gay community, standard operating procedure is not either. 1) Rape the uke untill he loves the seme. 2) Have the uke seduce the seme with his feminine wiles untill the seme is gay.

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[info]nekokatechan
2007-01-08 09:25 pm UTC (link)
Er, your argument about the 'cure' doesn't really stand up. Does that mean that Hitler's "cure" for being a homosexual was right? Oh, it worked, did it not? No man or woman was openly gay in Germany. But, goddamn, he cured all those homosexuals, didn't he? I'm a little offended that you think like that.

And as for homosexuals wanting to be cured, there are, but there are support groups to help them. Do you not agree that refunds for research should be spent on perhaps stem cell research that would help people dying from Parkinsons or MS? Finding a new way to cure cancer? AIDs?

And gay rights do matter in a 'yaoi' community. Surprisingly, you may find that not everyone in this community is a raving fangirl who couldn't tell the difference between a gay guy and a woman.

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[info]ashleyvsdestiny
2007-01-08 09:38 pm UTC (link)
Hitler never implimented a cure for homosexuality. He just got rid of them, there's a pretty big difference.

As for research... No, not really. I mean there are millions of dollars being spent on everythin from how to make the better tasting donut and all the way to making the longer lasting breast implant. In terms of frivolousness, you'll find a lot worse than trying to cure homosexuality at the bottom of the scientific research barrel.

And my point that gay rights doesn't matter in yaoi still stands. There's a good reason we'll never see a yaoi manga where the characters are marching in a gay rights parade. And if I ever do see that, I'll set that manga on fire.

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(no subject) - [info]nekokatechan, 2007-01-08 09:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ashleyvsdestiny, 2007-01-08 10:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]nekokatechan, 2007-01-08 10:08 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ashleyvsdestiny, 2007-01-08 10:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]nekokatechan, 2007-01-08 10:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ashleyvsdestiny, 2007-01-08 10:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]solitaryjane, 2007-01-09 05:59 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ashleyvsdestiny, 2007-01-09 06:01 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]fenm, 2007-01-08 10:17 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]fenm, 2007-01-08 10:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ashleyvsdestiny, 2007-01-08 10:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]nekokatechan, 2007-01-08 10:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ashleyvsdestiny, 2007-01-08 10:38 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]fenm, 2007-01-08 11:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ashleyvsdestiny, 2007-01-08 11:51 pm UTC

[info]fenm
2007-01-08 10:13 pm UTC (link)
You state that there is nothing to cure. If that is true, than no cure will be found. If they find a cure, then I guess there was something to cure, wasn't there?

There are also "cures" for blonde hair and left-handed-ness, I'll bet

On a side note, it's funny, no one would complain of someone was looking at a cure for heterosexuality.

You can't be serious.

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[info]iwanttobeasleep
2007-01-08 09:16 pm UTC (link)
Man, I have to agree with the article. While I don't want to bring in the politics about the "right" to be gay, fucking with an animal's hormones to cure something completely naturally occuring is just cruel. It's one thing to experiment on animals to save lives, or make lives better, it's another thing to do it for what's essentially cosmetics. Fuckers. Even worse that they want to bring it over to humans. Fetal development is very chemically fragile, shame on any parent who would even consider doing that on the offchance that their child might be gay.

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[info]4ti3k4t35
2007-01-08 11:12 pm UTC (link)
While I don't want to bring in the politics about the "right" to be gay, fucking with an animal's hormones to cure something completely naturally occurring is just cruel.

Erm. Cancer is naturally occurring. So are seizures. And heart and respiratory and brain attacks. Naturally occurring doesn't always mean healthy.

I'm not attacking you, I just felt that sentence was very strange. You clearly don't mean that we shouldn't give anti-seizure drugs to dogs with springer rage, but they way you stated it poked me in the brain and made me comment.

I also didn't see a problem with the farmers wanting their rams to be more fertile. It's either hormone therapy for the rams or artificially breeding the ewes. Since we have no evidence that shows sheep have sex for fun...or really any other reason except for breeding, I don't see why the farmers shouldn't go for this.

If it was a study on getting homosexual dolphins (an animal which does have recreational sex) to act heterosexual, I would be flabbergasted at it's very existence.

Serious shame on any parent who would breed for heterosexuality in their children. GATTACA, anyone?

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]nekokatechan
2007-01-08 09:18 pm UTC (link)
Being one of those people who 'needs to be cured', I find it a little offensive that they use those terms, though I understand researching the differences between straight and gay people, I find it amusing that studies mainly focus on male homosexuality and there is little to none on female homosexuality.

Although I support research, it reeks of the christian fundamentalist bollocks about "de-gaying" people.

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[info]shiva_chan
2007-01-09 01:10 am UTC (link)
Stuff like that, about how everyone focuses on male homosexuality and little on females, reminds me about how people still see female homosexuality as nothing but something for the guys.

You know?

Guys enjoy lesbians. And apparently, while girls can still have their fun, they're still also supposed to spread their legs for men as well. Because female homosexuality isn't taken very seriously.

It's kinda like all of those 'harem' type animes and stuff, one boy surrounded by who knows how many women? Obviously the women go and do their own thing, but sooner or later, as soon as the men appear, we flock to them.

*rolls eyes*

But this is my view on our stereotyped American world. And really I have nothing what-so-ever to back this up with. So... um... yeah.

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[info]topaz_kat
2007-01-08 09:41 pm UTC (link)
As another person who would need to be "cured", when I first read this article, I thought I was going to throw up. I mean, sure it might be interesting to see what differences thre are in terms of the mind and hormones an such between straight and gay people, but the fact of the matter is, is that SHEEP are SHEEP and are not HUMANS, I fail to see how this research could be reasonably provide and sort of data could even feasibly relate to how the human mind works.

Incidentaly, I agree with nekokatechan about the curiousness of the study focusing only on male homosexuality, but there are some ways in which that makes sense as females are generally thought of as being sexual objects only, as in the object of desire, not that they can be subjects of desire. Classically, female sexuality doesn't matter so long as they're breeding and as many lesbian couples are trying to have a family, they're being ignored because they are still "proper" even if they are with another woman. You only have to look at history to know that socieity has always had a bigger problem with male-male homosexual contact than with women doing it.

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[info]zimarra
2007-01-08 09:59 pm UTC (link)
An interesting discussion going on here. I can understand why people would want to see if there were changes in human brains due to sexual preferences. But I have always been an advocate against animal testing in any way. That comes down to makeup,medicines and even this. If anything this example of 'gay sheep' shows a few key points in the argument that gayness is natural:

1) According to the article, 1/10 rams are gay. This shows that gayness occurs naturally in populations, 10% is pretty low, but it's still there.

2) There have been reports of Bonobo Male monkeys being not only sexually promiscious but some prefer to have same sex couples (male and female)

3) in mice studies, it has shown that when species become overpopulated, more mice become more attracted to the same sex for there is no longer a compelling need to breed.

Science in this case, seems to be a double edged sword- with more knowledge there comes the responsibilty of taking personal responsiblity of what to do about it. Ignorance is not an excuse. There will always those people who will think gayness is a disease. This is a simliar debate to the Human Genome Project where we have learned some of our coding, yet it opens up a whole slew of ethical debate.

Of course, we are forgetting that ours is a culture based on heterosexual male priviledge. If anything needs to be 'cured' it should be our sick society. :)

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(no subject) - [info]shiva_chan, 2007-01-09 01:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]morbidsatan, 2007-01-09 06:40 am UTC

[info]nekokatechan
2007-01-08 09:59 pm UTC (link)
We were discussing that at college. Female on female relationships have been vastly overlooked. For a start it was never illegal as male homosexuality was in England. Queen Victoria couldn't understand how two women could have sex together so she didn't pass the law on women as well.

In the whole article on homosexuality on wikipedia, only the lesbian poet on Lesbos is mentioned. I mean, surely there are more cases of lesbianism than that!! And there are thousands of different branches off for male homosexuality and pederasty.

The reason lesbians are less studied is apparently because we don't have some kind of genetic difference in our brain. Or at least, as far as research so far has shown. Sex object or not, I wish some lesbian or female researches would do something. I'm curious about the nature vs nurture aspect. So much has been done on male homosexuals, but I'm still curious as to 'why' even if I don't want to change anything about myself.

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(no subject) - [info]solitaryjane, 2007-01-09 06:34 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]solitaryjane, 2007-01-09 06:56 am UTC

[info]kirin45
2007-01-08 10:03 pm UTC (link)
curing homosexuality, chosing your child's sexuality?

This just shows again how humans will never stop trying to play god over life. My only thought is, heck just do it with more important life threatening issues, Aids, Cancer and many other unresolved cases spreading in the world. So what if it's hereditary or orientational choice, homosexuality is not even an issue compare to those deadly cases. In my own words: A waste of time and money and slaughtering of poor animals for any scientist to even research on.

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[info]rosesablaze
2007-01-08 10:20 pm UTC (link)
Imma get shot for this, but I think that it could be a lot worse.

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[info]4ti3k4t35
2007-01-08 11:14 pm UTC (link)
I found the article thought-provoking and interesting right up until they used PETA as a source.

Way to go, Time. That's what they would say to ANY animal testing. WTF. Were you out of space or something?

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[info]4ti3k4t35
2007-01-08 11:15 pm UTC (link)
Er, 'out of space' should be something like 'needed more words to finish the article'. My brain is all melty today.

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(no subject) - [info]fenm, 2007-01-08 11:46 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]4ti3k4t35, 2007-01-08 11:49 pm UTC

[info]vahnm
2007-01-09 12:18 am UTC (link)
I think most of the world hates PETA. They suck, and the world knows it.

The only reason I'm alarmed is because... you know how it goes. First, it's animal testing, next it's humans.

Scary crap.

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(no subject) - [info]4ti3k4t35, 2007-01-09 12:24 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]vahnm, 2007-01-09 02:21 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]4ti3k4t35, 2007-01-09 02:47 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]solitaryjane, 2007-01-09 06:04 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]4ti3k4t35, 2007-01-09 06:07 am UTC

[info]genkischuldich
2007-01-09 04:35 am UTC (link)
If I'm reading the article right, then the scientist have no plans to use this technique on anyone other than sheep and the campaigners are the ones that are saying 'Yes, you are! Slippery slope!'. Well, I do believe that's one of the most common arguments against gay marriage, isn't it? You know, 'If you allow THIS, then THIS will follow for sure.' Which none of us have ever put much stock in, right...?

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[info]solitaryjane
2007-01-09 05:37 am UTC (link)
I think people here are protesting more on the thought that gayness should have a cure than the actual possibility of sexual orientation prevention in humans.

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(no subject) - [info]genkischuldich, 2007-01-09 07:03 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]solitaryjane, 2007-01-09 08:57 pm UTC

[info]morbidsatan
2007-01-09 06:48 am UTC (link)
I'm not gay, so I can't really say why people are gay. The fact is, I don't know, don't plan to know, and can't possibly know. My personal feeling is that being homosexual is a choice and a preference, not a biological disposition. There are lots of people who would disagree with me, I'm sure.

However, when it comes to animals, they don't necessarily have the greater intelligence or the mental capacity to understand the idea of sexual preference. In nature, those that reproduce live on. Those that can't, die, and fail to pass on their dna. That's the natural order of things. Therefore, in nature and in the wild, I view homosexuality as an abnormality. In the instances of rams, perhaps it really is a hormonal imbalance.

I can't really form a solid opinion on this, though, mainly because I find the article to be full of half truths and hardly any actual evidence towards the experiments. Are the rams in their natural environment, or are they in a controlled instance? Are they given the chance to carry on their normal relationships (alpha male has control of the females and all the other males get slim pickins?) or is the male to female ration completely unnatural to the rams' usual population?
Anyway, if I knew more about it perhaps I could make a greater decision. Right now, however, I'm sort of living in the land of apathy.

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[info]yaoi_slut
2007-01-09 08:28 am UTC (link)
I've heard about this sort of thing for years. Not the tests, but we've all heard about the magical straight inducers.

One of the earlier posters said something utterly ridiculous, along the lines of, "If it's cured, there was something to cure".

Well, just because something is altered, doesn't mean it was "cured". What the hell is there to cure? And curing heterosexuality? Obviously that's going to be a big mover, considering how the POPULATION WOULD DISAPPEAR.

Anyhow, something can be altered without being a disease or anything of the sort. Hair color, eye color, skin color. It's bad enough that they've worked on allowing a parent to choose the looks and sex of their child. That's just weird to me. But this line really got me:

“Allowing parents to select their children's sexual orientation would further a parent's freedom to raise the sort of children they want to raise.”


To raise the sort of children they want? Yes, because children are toys. Come on, honey. Let's pick the color we want. Will this one go with that lamp your mother bought us?

That has to be the most disgusting thing I've ever heard, and any "parent" that agrees with such a statement should be sterilized. IMMEDIATELY.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]toxictattoo
2007-01-09 01:39 pm UTC (link)
To raise the sort of children they want? Yes, because children are toys. Come on, honey. Let's pick the color we want. Will this one go with that lamp your mother bought us?

When I was in high school (waaaay back when) I remember reading a short story about genetic modification to get the perfect child you want. The heroine of the story was a girl who hadn't been genetically modified/enhanced and how she was looked upon as being lesser.

The scare that was raging around her were the 'genetically perfect' children were exploding and dying with no warning and no reason...I wish I could remember that story now...

Anyway...had no point except your comment made me think of that.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]tochirooyama
2007-01-09 09:59 am UTC (link)
I'd really like to know more about the rams' environment too. I know that binobos are generally bisexual (sexuality helps them to form cohesive groups, we studied them in anthropology) but it doesn't say anything about the rams. Do the "gay" rams only want to mount other rams, or will they sometimes mount ewes. Also, what are the ewes doing? We really can't just look at half the population to make any observations...

As for choosing a child preferences, generally I think that would be one of the worst things possible. Although a small part of me would think that deliberatly making your child homosexual would be a good thing from a parents' point of view. If your child is only interested in the same sex, you wouldn't have to worry about unplanned pregnancies.

(And for the record, I like girls and guys, and I don't want children)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]solitaryjane
2007-01-09 09:02 pm UTC (link)
hahahaa.

I'm sorry, that's just, the bit about unplanned pregnancies. Wow, the parents are so inept these days that they have to resort to genetic engineering to keep their child from having unprotected sex. Whatever happened to teaching your children right and wrong (or safe and unsafe) because that's part of the responsibilities of raising them?

I'm not laughing at you. I'm laughing at the idea because it's too sad.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]tochirooyama, 2007-01-10 04:43 am UTC

[info]bat_girl34
2007-01-29 10:04 am UTC (link)
That's really quite disturbing, not only the fact that they're so bothered by the sexuality of a sheep but some mothers-to-be would actually want to change their unborn child. Doesn't that ring a little bit of designer babies? Even worse in fact, since the child will grow up and one day discover that their choice of sexuality was more or less destroyed inside them.

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