I ought, therefore I can. ([info]malathion) wrote in [info]wurds,
@ 2008-05-12 23:18:00
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"Evil requires the sanction of the victim."

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[info]malathion
2008-05-13 03:18 am UTC (link)
-- Ayn Rand.

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[info]limegreenzer
2008-05-13 03:20 am UTC (link)
This quote, this book = LOVE

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[info]ox_erin_xo
2008-05-13 03:31 am UTC (link)
Well doesn't every label(and I'm using that loosely) require the observing person to sanction their opinion?

Or am I looking at this quote the wrong way?

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[info]mrdeconstructor
2008-05-13 03:51 am UTC (link)
The wrong way...

The victim corresponds to the entity which is labelled in your experience. In your example, it would be saying that the entity being labelled or objectified sanctions the label that is imposed upon them.

Having been labelled in all manner of ways throughout my life, I can assure you that I've rejected quite a lot of them - Not that that has prevented the labellers continuing to use said label.

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[info]mrdeconstructor
2008-05-13 03:48 am UTC (link)
I'm not sure that I agree with this.

For example, if we define, say the cold blooded murder of children in their sleep as 'evil', then this could be perpetrated without the child knowing.

The evil would have been done, yet the victim would not be awake and aware to give sanction. Another take on this is the community from which the child comes is also a victim of this crime (think about the pain that communities experience when one of their number is murdered, or even dies accidentially). The community could be completely unaware that the evil was to take place, or (at least for a while) that it had taken place. The community gave no sanction for the evil to be committed either upon it or one of its number.

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[info]nerdcorehiphop
2008-05-13 04:32 am UTC (link)
Children are always the problem with Ayn Rand's ideas. In my opinion, she should have given a general disclaimer saying that her ideas are only for interaction with other adults.

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[info]mrdeconstructor
2008-05-13 04:49 am UTC (link)
Children are always the problem with Ayn Rand's ideas. In my opinion, she should have given a general disclaimer saying that her ideas are only for interaction with other adults.

It's not very hard to translate the argument used above to incorporate adults instead. Say, the violent gang rape of a young woman, or a home invasion and slaying of a pensioner, or even just the random killing of a normal, healthy individual.

I'll say at this point that I've not read anything of her's... but I suspect that her point here is that in some sense, the weak (upon whom evil is quite often visited) sanction that evil precisely by being weak. I could be wrong of course - but either way, I am sure that one can dig into history to find countless counter-examples.

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(no subject) - [info]nerdcorehiphop, 2008-05-13 05:03 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]mrdeconstructor, 2008-05-13 05:15 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]nerdcorehiphop, 2008-05-13 05:23 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]juiceboy, 2008-05-13 05:57 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]mrdeconstructor, 2008-05-13 06:06 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]peccare, 2008-06-08 03:49 am UTC (Expand)

[info]taryndaani
2008-05-13 04:07 am UTC (link)
I disagree. I can't think of a single instance, aside from self-sacrifice, when someone actually sanctioned an evil deed being done to them or on them, and yet evil still happens.

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[info]nerdcorehiphop
2008-05-13 04:30 am UTC (link)
Did you see what that girl was wearing? She was asking for it.

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[info]parabolabear
2008-05-13 04:35 am UTC (link)
ugh. most ridiculous argument ever.

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(no subject) - [info]nerdcorehiphop, 2008-05-13 05:04 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]parabolabear, 2008-05-13 05:21 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]taryndaani, 2008-05-13 05:09 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]nerdcorehiphop, 2008-05-13 05:11 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]taryndaani, 2008-05-13 05:12 am UTC (Expand)

[info]wierdauntie
2008-05-13 04:26 am UTC (link)
This quote is a load of crap. Think of all the evil done to others in the world every day... by those who simply have guns or machetes when others don't.

*DELETE* is my vote for this one.

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[info]nerdcorehiphop
2008-05-13 04:30 am UTC (link)
The point of the quote is that those people being victimized are sanctioning there victimization by not fighting back effectively. It's more of an encouragement to find that way to fight back effectively than it is a condemnation.

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(no subject) - [info]taryndaani, 2008-05-13 05:07 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]nerdcorehiphop, 2008-05-13 05:09 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]taryndaani, 2008-05-13 05:12 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]nerdcorehiphop, 2008-05-13 05:18 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]taryndaani, 2008-05-13 05:25 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]nerdcorehiphop, 2008-05-13 05:30 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]taryndaani, 2008-05-13 05:36 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]cantinalaughter, 2008-05-14 01:34 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]taryndaani, 2008-05-14 04:12 am UTC (Expand)

[info]daisy_fields
2008-05-13 04:47 am UTC (link)
...no.

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[info]taryndaani
2008-05-13 05:09 am UTC (link)
Agreed.

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[info]spreadonlylove
2008-05-13 05:13 am UTC (link)
False.

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[info]iluvthecheat
2008-05-13 10:30 am UTC (link)
I would probably have to say that the exact opposite is true. :/

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[info]cantinalaughter
2008-05-13 10:47 am UTC (link)
I'm glad that a lot of people disagree with this quotation, but at the same time I can't help but inwardly laugh at everyone's vehemence. How many times have we secretly thought this? It's not PC to say out loud, but that doesn't stop us from blaming victims for letting (or even encouraging) bad things happen to them. How naive and trusting would we have to be as a society for the opposite to be true?

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[info]guntar
2008-05-13 01:58 pm UTC (link)
I have much the same reaction--I feel that the opposite being true is just as misguided as Ayn Rand's statement.

I know many people who are too afraid to do things because of the potential of someone being evil, and will never take up arms against said potential.

Example: A friend of mine is afraid to walk after dark, despite the fact that this hampers her life significantly (it gets dark early in winter up here). I offered to train her in jo and hand-to-hand combat, so that she would be more than a match for any single attacker (the jo is the best weapon for walking, as it doubles as a walking stick). Her response: "But why should I have to work to be safe?"

She wanted the world to cater to her without any effort, wanting the world to protect her weakness, instead of becoming strong.

The truth is that anyone who's evil (generally) only has access to the exact same resources you do--if they are stronger, it's because you allowed them to become so.

But, of course, often this is not true. A person who was born into $1 billion could buy weapons capable of easily killing a single person who was born into poverty. A gang of people can almost always overcome a single person, no matter how strong. Though that single person could walk with a group, this ends up just like an arms race, each group trying to get the largest number of people, and would result in very little positive work being done. Trying to never have evil done to you means being able to beat every single person on the planet alone. And that's just impossible.

And the fact is that evil does not require a victim, as Ayn Rand says it does. A person who wants to kill and rape you, but is opposed and beaten by you, is still evil, even though you won. There is no victim in that situation, but there is still evil. Was Hitler not evil because he was beaten? That's what the quotation seems to imply.

Evil exists, but victims may not. To never be a victim, despite what evil things are done to you, to always do what you can to best it, even in defeat--that is true strength.

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[info]taryndaani
2008-05-13 03:00 pm UTC (link)
Not all people are as naive or self-assured (secretly thinking a victim deserved it) as you might think. If you'll notice, all of one person said the exact opposite is true (sorry iluvthecheat).

By comparison, your way of thinking is pretty damn convenient. If it's bound to happen anyway, and the victim is just asking for it, why try to do anything to stop it?

The fact that the victim was a victim does not excuse the evil doer. But excusing them is exactly what you do when you say or think something like "They were asking for it." Some (not me) might argue that makes you an accessory to the crime, because you had the knowledge or the ability to stop it and didn't.

I'm not saying that the opposite of the quote is true. I'm saying that, though it is sometimes given by people who refuse to or are too afraid to stop being a victim, evil does not require a sanction by any means. And the lack of one does not stop it from being committed. Is that a more reasonable argument for you?

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(no subject) - [info]cantinalaughter, 2008-05-13 08:58 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]taryndaani, 2008-05-14 04:19 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]cantinalaughter, 2008-05-14 04:29 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]taryndaani, 2008-05-14 04:32 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]deinera, 2008-05-13 10:26 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]taryndaani, 2008-05-14 04:23 am UTC (Expand)

[info]ground0messiah
2008-05-13 03:32 pm UTC (link)
ugh. ayn rand and her hollow headed vices creep into the community once again.

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[info]nikhedonia
2008-05-13 06:38 pm UTC (link)
Ayn Rand = <3

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[info]deinera
2008-05-13 10:17 pm UTC (link)
I think some people may not be paying as much attention to the quote than is necessary. It's not a blanket statement saying "Victims ask for it." Actually, with a little bit of logical reasoning you might find that [info]guntar makes a very valid point. When offered, those who are more likely to be victims of something "evil" (this term alone being a broad term depending on an individual's definition) are generally those who spend their lives living in supposed bubble. No, the child being molested by their father/uncle don't fall into this category. Sure, there are evil people regardless of background, ethnicity, culture or geographic location.

Wanna know the difference? Those evil person's spend far too much time learning how best to be evil and how best to execute their evil deeds while the innocents run around pretending that bad things just don't happen to them.

In no way am I saying that someone is asking for it. Of course not. But if the "victim" bothered to invest even a fraction of the effort to arm themselves with knowledge, education or even self-defense as the evil psycho doing, then I guess we'd have less victims now wouldn't we?? At least in certain situations.

Edited at 2008-05-13 10:19 pm UTC

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[info]taryndaani
2008-05-14 04:27 am UTC (link)
To an extent, I agree. There is logic in what you say.

As to the last hypothetical part, though, what would that ultimately lead to? As you said, evil doers spend a lot of time learning how to be evil. If the victim becomes more difficult to overcome, they'll learn of new ways to overcome them. In the long term this could turn into an endless arm's race.

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(no subject) - [info]malathion, 2008-05-16 03:38 am UTC (Expand)

[info]flancis
2008-05-13 11:14 pm UTC (link)
well, in some ways I agree with this

me and my AK-74 don't sanction very much evil

but there are certainly a ton of situations where this could be disproved

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[info]entreaty
2008-06-06 01:38 pm UTC (link)
Having seen other quotes with a similar message, I am certain this quote does not mean "bad deeds are the fault of the victim". To me it reads "there is no evil unless someone perceives that evil has been done to them". It is about personal strength. No matter how terrible, nothing that happens to you is bad if you allow it to make you stronger instead of making you a victim. Said Socrates:

"You can kill me, but you cannot harm me."

I like it, personally.

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