Kim ([info]kimbrchick) wrote in [info]wow_ladies,
@ 2008-05-01 08:11:00
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Gruul's
This is a simple question and I feel silly for asking it but how often does Gruul's Lair reset? There seems to be confusion on that in my guild.

On a related note, my guild can get High King Mulgar down now but we wipe on Gruul when he's at about 50% :/

We've only attempted him about 4 times so I'm sure we need a lot of practice. I don't know how fast other guilds get him down but we are not that coordinated yet.

Oh and does anyone else have major issues with buffs during 25 man raids? We spend WAY too long getting people fully buffed the way they want. It's always "I need salv!", "I need might pls", "I can't buff you if you are too far away!", etc. Mostly it's pally buffs which are so beneficial, just so dang hard to organize in a timely manner.

Anyway, thanks for any input.

ETA: Thanks for all the great info and suggestions. I have a few things I'm going to be mentioning in our next attempt. Also thanks for settling the discrepancy in how often it resets. I tried to tell them it was weekly but they kept saying no that it was every 3 days.

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[info]backstreet01
2008-05-01 03:28 pm UTC (link)
I believe it's every 3 days.

The way we do it, make sure you get on the butt of the brute's. They charge, and make sure dps is behind them, but on him.

Everyone that is buffing should know in advance what's being buffed. As soon as everyone is up and together, do buffs, shouldn't take longer than 1 minute, then go.

As far as gruul, the group just needs to get a good sync down together. We usually get him down in 5 minutes.
When the debris starts to fall, it's best for any range dps to get against the wall, and you won't get hit with as much, and then the healers can start topping people off. If anyone goes down, get a battle rez on them. Once he reaches grow 13-14, you may not have a chance if hes not below 10%.

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[info]miniluv
2008-05-01 03:33 pm UTC (link)
Wow, 5 minutes is a pretty geared group as that's grow 10...11 at most.

Our first kill was 10 seconds into grow 15, 4 kills later this past week we had him 15 seconds into grow 13.

No one should ever take more than 1 tick of cave in, if they are they need to learn to move. Chronic cave in death is a sign of a raider who will not succeed in later content.

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[info]hap
2008-05-01 04:33 pm UTC (link)
We still do Gruul when we can't get a solid group for learning content, and because we've only seen maybe two DSTs drop the whole time we've been killing him. We have killed him pre-growth 10 before, but then again, for us most of the gear either goes to d/e, to sell off the unused tokens, or alts. :-/

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[info]miniluv
2008-05-01 04:35 pm UTC (link)
Damn those DSTs. I have a feeling people will be farming him at 80 that trinket is so damn good.

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[info]littlekfru
2008-05-01 04:45 pm UTC (link)
Sigh. Probably. Our guild has three now. I'm still really annoyed that I lost by five to a DPS warrior who hasn't bothered to show up to raid since.

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[info]miniluv
2008-05-01 04:56 pm UTC (link)
Situations like that drive me insane.

There are more casual people in my guild actively fighting a DKP implementation for tier5 raiding who actually see situations like someone showing up to 1 gruul raid, getting a DST and then never raiding again as totally acceptable.

Drives me insane when I'm trying to get things organized for people who want real progression to start getting that appetite satisfied and the less focused people don't understand (or choose not to agree) that raiding is a long term effort and gearing the raid up is part of that process so every piece of gear diverted outside of the people who show up is effectively lost and holds us up.

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[info]littlekfru
2008-05-01 05:17 pm UTC (link)
Our Gruul runs are now Loot Council with priority going to progression raiders on things like this. Had it been opened for a completely open roll someone would have been dead. I could have made a better argument to me getting it versus the two of us (and we were the only ones allowed to roll) rolling on it but I was so shocked to see it drop that I completely forgot to throw my weight around as a senior raider LOL. I'm inline for the next one though. Should it ever drop again.

It's funny, had it been DKP he still would have won but I think I'd have felt better about him actually winning it through DKP versus a random roll. I like DKP it's something I can control. If I didn't have enough DKP then 9 chances out of 10 it was because I had just gotten something. I'm okay with that. Random rolls...even when loot council is involved just seem to screw people over.

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[info]miniluv
2008-05-01 05:27 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, I hate losing rolls no matter who it is who wins. I'm happy they got an upgrade, I still hate losing. I never once felt anything negative about being outbid with DKP.

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[info]heinous_bitca
2008-05-01 05:36 pm UTC (link)
God, I WISH it was 3 days!! A week, Tuesday maintenance, that's the reset for all 25-mans (and Karazhan).

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[info]backstreet01
2008-05-01 05:37 pm UTC (link)
Doh! That tells you how much we do gruul's now. :P Yeah it would be nice. It can easily be 20 man'd. (Maybe!) Good badges for basically no work! =)

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[info]j_pook
2008-05-01 03:29 pm UTC (link)
Gruuls resets weekly. On the EU serversit is reset for Wednesday, but I don't know if it's different for the US servers.

As for buffing I'd recomend PallyPower for buffing. I know some ladies here don't like it, but when I raidied on a Paladin, it was a Godsend. We'd get everyone buffed up in no time.

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[info]zenkitty
2008-05-01 05:53 pm UTC (link)
PallyPower ftw! Greatly helps me keep them organized and watch their seconds tick by.

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[info]miniluv
2008-05-01 03:31 pm UTC (link)
Gruul's is on the weekly reset like Kara and all the other 25mans, so Tuesday maintenance.

We tend to waste time after buffs but before people realize its time for a ready check and then the pull. Our raid leader calls out its time for buffs, everyone clumps up on them and people walk through their buffs. If pally buffs in particular are being missed then your paladins need to get on the ball. Recommend PallyPower to them and then designate the best one of them to coordinate the buffs through the addon. Its a lightweight addon and really improves the speed and accuracy of buffing so making it required wouldn't be much of a stretch.

Make sure you're buffing Amp Magic before Gruul, its time consuming but really worth it since it boosts healing efficiency a lot with zero downside.

What grow was he at at 50% do you recall?

Practice is really the key to people not dying during shatter. This week we implemented a zone based strategy for initial group placement and it seemed to help with the chronic shatter chainers. We also sacrified a bit of group synergy to ensure a bad shatter person was grouped with good people as much as we could to avoid 5-7 bad people grouping up and annihilating themselves.

To make learning pulls more palatable if you call a wipe have everyone group up by the door and shatter each other to death as it doesn't cause durability loss due to it counting as pvp damage.

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[info]littlekfru
2008-05-01 03:32 pm UTC (link)
Guild leader brought out an egg timer several months ago. If after wipe was called you didn't die, release/run or be rez in five minutes you weren't buffed beyond Salvation. Period. It's broken a lot of the veteran raiders of bad habits. The other thing we did is made the mod Pally Power mandatory. We often have more than five pallies in a raid and we'd be spending 10 or 15 minutes deciding who had what and who was buffing what. Pally Power has fixed that.

On Gruul, I think it's coordinating the shatters that really gets people first starting out. If you guys aren't using a mod like DBM I recommended it. I don't know about Bigwigs but DBM has a range finder for shatters. It saves my life.

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[info]miniluv
2008-05-01 03:34 pm UTC (link)
That is an awesome idea on the egg timer.

Stuff like that is what turns slow arduous raids into fast, efficient ones.

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[info]littlekfru
2008-05-01 03:47 pm UTC (link)
Yeah. We still occasionally have issues with efficiency but they're now limited to overly long sessions of theorycrafting boss encounters while progression raiding and woodpecker tryout sessions (the farming sessions we do with people we've picked up from open recruiting).

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[info]hap
2008-05-01 04:52 pm UTC (link)
Oh, and even with killing him almost every week for months since...last August or before? (We stopped for a while to focus on other things, but it was still every week for months and months before that.) We got our FIRST EVER caster weapon to drop recently. Luckily for that there are comparable or better items elsewhere.

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[info]miniluv
2008-05-01 04:57 pm UTC (link)
So you'd hate me if I said the caster sword AND the shield dropped Sunday? ;p

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[info]meringuert
2008-05-01 03:40 pm UTC (link)
Have all your paladins install PallyPower and promote one of them to raid assistant. You can read about it on the site, it is Ace2 if you are a wowace updater person, and it is quite glorious.

http://www.wowinterface.com/downloads/info6370-PallyPower.html

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[info]hap
2008-05-01 03:42 pm UTC (link)
As others have said, reset is once per week, on maintenance day (even if there's only rolling restarts that day.)

A few tips for Gruul: assign ranged groups to a "side" of the cave, and remind them to spread out. I put healers on the north side, since that's closer to the fightin', so they're not out of range of the tanks while being closer to the wall to avoid getting punted too far. Get a mod with a range finder, like DBM, which will tell you if you're too close to someone for a shatter. Assign three healers to the OT, the rest to the MT. After 10-12 growths, spam big heals on them both, overhealing be damned. Remind melee to bandage after shatter and keep pots handy. Remind the two tanks to charge back in when they get punted (if it's not a pally tank, I guess) and NO ONE ELSE. Misdirect the tanks in rotation as needed. Ferals make great OTs and shouldn't need them, a warrior tank (MT or OT) will.

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[info]littlekfru
2008-05-01 03:50 pm UTC (link)
/agree with all of the suggestions. I think I may be a tiny bit biased because we once had one of our ferals DC and still manage to stay second on the threat meters while taking gruul but I think they're the best tank class for the position. They keep the threat ceiling nice and high.

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[info]backstreet01
2008-05-01 03:49 pm UTC (link)
We'll, we raid SSC/TK. Gruul is on farm status, has been for a while. We don't really do him anymore. Once you get the hang of him, it goes really easily. Easy badges, t4 loot, not to bad to start out =)

And that is true. We do have this one rogue. He always dies. It doesn't matter what it is. sometimes i just have to /facepalm because it gets so annoying. Like, how many times do you have to do the same instance before you understand what NOT to do? lol

There's one in every guild..

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[info]littlekfru
2008-05-01 03:52 pm UTC (link)
o.O How does a rogue die in Shatters? (I'm assuming it's shatters that he's dying in?) Seriously. We CoS out of the slowing debuff and then can sprint to a clear spot in the cave. After you get the rhythm of the fight it's not difficult.

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[info]backstreet01
2008-05-01 03:54 pm UTC (link)
That's a GREAT question. rofl. He gets cleaved or something, I don't know. Or either a piece of ceiling falls on him. It's funny though, usually we lose maybe 2 people from stupidness, but it doesnt cost a wipe in gruul.

We've got Tidewalker on farm now, he's almost as easy as gruul. :x but, that same rogue, just always dies. lol

Also for the Maulgar fight, we misdirect one of them. We usually have a mage tank the priest.

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[info]miniluv
2008-05-01 03:59 pm UTC (link)
If Gruul is that fast unless everyone who wants a DST has one I'd say its worth 35-40 minutes to go bang out two bosses for badges. DST really is THAT good for rogues, hunters, enhance shaman, fury warriors, arms warriors. I'm not sure if druids like it but I can imagine melee ones would provided it wlil proc for them.

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[info]kanmude
2008-05-01 03:52 pm UTC (link)
The biggest problem we had when learning was the melee not being behind Gruul or moving when he turned to hateful strike the OT.

Make sure they understand that if they are in front of him and Gruul parries their attack the tank dies. Tell them to be opposite the Main Tank, ignore when he turns and that will potentially solve one of the reasons you're all dying at 50%. Have the tank keep Gruul in the center of the room as best he/she can. If he's positioned way off in a corner it 1) squishes the people behind Gruul closer, and it's harder to move for a cave-in, and the people on the other side of the room have to move in more to the center making it harder to scatter for shatter.

After 8 or 9 growths we instruct the dps that they are on their own for healing because most healers are focused on the tanks.

Also, third, 4th, whatever, on Pally Power. I even have it on my warlock (granted my alt is a paladin...) to check who has what so I can tell who to buff if some are missing. And to see who I need to demand salv from. :)

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[info]littlekfru
2008-05-01 04:13 pm UTC (link)
Why would Gruul be turning? Our MT and OT stand on top of each other. If melee are where they're suppose to be he doesn't turn around and there shouldn't be any risk of a parry or a cleave.

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[info]kanmude
2008-05-01 04:36 pm UTC (link)
We've always have the OT behind him, so he can't cause Gruul to parry.

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[info]littlekfru
2008-05-01 04:48 pm UTC (link)
Odd. We've never had an issue with having the two tanks up front and center.

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[info]hap
2008-05-01 04:53 pm UTC (link)
Same here, we always mark the MT and OT so they can more easily stay on top of each other.

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[info]miniluv
2008-05-01 04:58 pm UTC (link)
If just two people are attacking from the front parries will remain relatively infrequent and thus not a big deal. If your tank is squishy enough that they are a big deal then suggest reitemizing for extra expertise to cut heavily into that parry percentage.

But yeah, if most of your melee is up front parries will be fast and frequent and tanks will start dying.

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[info]kanmude
2008-05-01 05:03 pm UTC (link)
Makes sense, I think we just do it that way so it's an extra visual cue that he's doing hurtful strike and because we had lots of melee who need to be told several times to get behind him (they like to follow the OT for some reason...).

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[info]miniluv
2008-05-01 05:08 pm UTC (link)
Nothing wrong with the way you guys do it as long as melee doesn't react to the animation of him turning. My understanding of these mechanics is that while the animation turns the hit box does not and so even if a swing lands during the hurtful strike it will not be a parry risk.

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[info]the__ivorytower
2008-05-01 03:55 pm UTC (link)
People have talked about Pally Power, but I personally dislike it, to be honest. I don't find it that difficult to organize buffs if you know the people in the raid, and I prefer it to having yet-another-mod cluttering up my screen.

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[info]meringuert
2008-05-01 03:59 pm UTC (link)
I'm sure your group is doing fine, but she specifically mentioned her raid is having trouble organizing pally buffs and it's hard to argue with PallyPower for that. ;)

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[info]the__ivorytower
2008-05-01 04:05 pm UTC (link)
Unfortunately I never got to see it be useful. I guess it's one of those 'everyone has to have the mod for it to be useful' mods.

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[info]alina_cantha
2008-05-01 04:01 pm UTC (link)
Ugh, yeah - my raid can spend up to 20 minutes (?!) figuring out pally buffs. We made Pally Power mandatory as of last night, so we'll see how it goes, but -man-, is it frustrating.

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[info]power_puffs_lab
2008-05-01 04:20 pm UTC (link)
As far as how long gruul takes my old guild would go into 14 growths (and I would be nearly in tears because by the end it was just trying desperately to keep enough people up to kill him) once you hit 10 it starts to get really tough on the healers. Use amp magic. If you are having trouble because of threat bring more hunters for MD's. If your dps just aren't putting out enough dps but they aren't threat capped tell them to do everything they can food buffs oils etc etc. IMO this is really a dps race.

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[info]power_puffs_lab
2008-05-01 04:28 pm UTC (link)
I can't edit to add so I'm just going to add add.

If you wipe and he's at 50% on growth 10, you need more dps. If you are on growth 4? You need better heals. Do you have a couple healers assigned to just focus on the soaker? Does your soaker have the armor to take it? Does a rogue get over eager and end up taking the hits and soaking your healers mana? The first 50% shouldn't be too bad, it's the last half that hurts. Are you wiping because the healers are oom? They shouldn't be healing the dps who take shatter dmg. Are you wiping because people aren't getting out of shatter and they are dying so you are working with much less people?

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[info]zenkitty
2008-05-01 06:01 pm UTC (link)
Another thing I'd like to add is that my guild has its own separate channel for paladins; since our guild's initials are FS, our channel is 'fspaladins', or at least something like it. We put all the paladins in the raid in there, and our class leader/officer, or at least the pally with the highest seniority, then goes, "Okay, PallyA, you do Wis/Might. PallyB, you do Salv/Sanc. PallyC, you do Kings." And so on and so forth.

It might be overkill for some raids, but our rchat is kinda talkative and our GL/RL is very much a "okay, go! go! go!" type of person. With all that, I set my pally channel in a bright yellow so I can see it in the chaos. ; )

And, since I adore PallyPower, all I do when he assigns me, is that I go in, set my PallyPower up with said buffs for said classes, and then just click down the list. (You'll know what I mean if you see the addon.) It tells me immediately that, at least with the Greater blessings, they have 29:29 left on their buff; and, another thing I like, it shows the time in green, orange, or red depending on how much time they have left. So, if I glance over, and I notice the druids' Kings is in red, I just click it and BAM! they're rebuffed and it's back in the green. I swear by the thing, lol.

This is probably a very long comment, and I'm sorry. ^_^;

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[info]heinous_bitca
2008-05-01 08:40 pm UTC (link)
So say you're assigned to do Might to druids, and the lone resto druid wants Wisdom (obviously). Can PallyPower do anything about offspec buffs, or do you have to remember to do that manually?

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[info]zenkitty
2008-05-02 05:03 am UTC (link)
I do believe there's a way for it to show a non-Greater Blessing's time beneath the Greater's time, but I've been too lazy to look for the setting to fix it that way. :< I'm sorry I can't be of more help, lol. I'll look into it a little more tonight and see if I can figure that out.

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[info]daenarys
2008-05-01 11:52 pm UTC (link)
Personally, the raid leaders sort out pally power and if someone whines I'm very much of the 'You'll eat your salvation and like it' attitude, even to the point of telling one of the raiders to kiss my arse when he asked for a last minute buff change.

So in short. We are the pallies, we will be buffing you today, suck it up unless you want no buffs.

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