wow_ladies: An open letter, posted in a forum where the intended audience probably won't ever see it.

three! four! (

itsyspy70) wrote in

wow_ladies,
@ 2007-06-25 12:03:00

Current mood:	disappointed
Entry tags:	guilds

An open letter, posted in a forum where the intended audience probably won't ever see it.

Dear Young Male Guildies:

Please, please stop using the word "rape" in-game. It's not funny. It's not appropriate. It's not "no biggie". Myself and several other members find it incredibly offensive, tasteless and hurtful. It doesn't matter that your other young male buddies see no problem with it. It doesn't matter that you don't realize you said it. It doesn't matter that you're joking. Be mindful of what you're saying, and your audience.

Realize there are a lot of women in guild, as well as a lot of married members and members with children. Realize that 1 in 6 women are raped in the US. Realize that each person in the guild is either female themselves, and/or has multiple loved ones and friends that are female. Realize that rape is a deeply traumatic experience, for the victim and their loved ones.

I will continue to immediately ask whoever uses the word "rape" in a casual context in-game to please be mindful of what exactly they are saying, either in vent or in whispered replies, as well as to refrain from using it in the future. I'm not going to yell at you, berate you or try to humiliate you. I will ask you calmly and politely to consider what exactly you are saying, and how offensive it is, and to reconsider the use of the word regarding your PvP or raid bosses. You don't need to apologize to me, or apologize in guild chat like you've just been whipped. I'm not trying to make you feel bad. I'm trying to make you realize that what you're saying is tasteless and potentially hurtful to a great many people. The best possible thing for you to take away from this is to modify your language, your thoughts. Realize that it's not something to joke about when you're pwning face, or when you get pwned.

I don't bring it up because I've had the horror of experiencing rape myself*; as I have not , but because I have multiple friends who have. Because I have friends who work at rape crisis centers. Because I am a woman, and it is something that matters, personally to me and my loved ones and on a societal level. I bring it up because I know others won't, either because they don't care or they can't bring themselves to be as confrontational as I am, through no fault of their own.

That said, I love playing with each and every one of you, really and truly. You're great players and great people, which I suppose makes it even worse when you act/speak like this. I hate losing respect for you, and I don't want any of you to feel like you can't be candid with me, this is just the one thing that I can't and won't sit by and tolerate without saying anything. Above all, I'm not mad, just dissapointed and a little hurt by your thoughtlessness.

Respectfully,

*(EDIT: I suppose I didn't word this clearly enough, not that it matters one whit to my argument, but I have not personally been a victim/survivor of rape. I apologize to all if they read it as such.)

***************************************************************************************************************************

*Sigh*

Anyone else out there had issues with this sort of thing? Am I being far too reactionary/sensitive about it? I know for a fact that the GL and several officers share my viewpoint, in that using the word "rape" in a casual context is not appropriate, though I am not sure how forward they are in talking to people/calling them out on it.

It's happened 3 times in the past week, and it just puts such a damper on my mood that it makes me want to screen gchat out of my chatbox and mute vent. One of my good friends in guild has said that he doesn't even realize he's saying it, and has to actually think to *not* say it, which is sort of disheartening.

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juliamarcela
2007-06-25 07:41 pm UTC (link)

I know exactly what you mean, and I completely agree. I don't know why this has become into such rampant use. I, myself, haven't sent any tells, because of the indignant and insulting replies I'm bound to get in return. I'm always called the stuck up one, because I say that it's inappropriate to use that, and other such words. I ought to make more of an effort to address it, random player or not.

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)

	nerglish 2007-06-25 07:47 pm UTC (link)
	I know why, because crude humor has been around for generations. Unless rules are set in place that prohibit that behavior and are enforced, some people will happily use offensive humor because they have the freedom to do so. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

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itsyspy70, 2007-06-25 08:05 pm UTC (Expand)

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nerglish, 2007-06-25 08:10 pm UTC (Expand)

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itsyspy70, 2007-06-25 08:22 pm UTC (Expand)

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itsyspy70, 2007-06-25 07:47 pm UTC (Expand)

	nerglish 2007-06-25 07:45 pm UTC (link)
	Unless your guild leadership gets tough on language in guildchat, these players probably won't change. You probably also don't feel like telling everyone that uses the word about your past. Other than that, good luck trying to get the wow populace to not be offensive. (Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)

itsyspy70
2007-06-25 07:50 pm UTC (link)

I don't bring up my own past/personal experiences or those of my friends and loved ones into the conversation. The fact that nearly every single person alive has someone they love and care about that is female (not to say that male rape isn't serious, it is, just not as common) should be reason enough.

I'm not even trying for the general WoW populace, just my guildies that I play with. :-p

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

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nerglish, 2007-06-25 07:52 pm UTC (Expand)

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itsyspy70, 2007-06-25 08:07 pm UTC (Expand)

	ktknievel 2007-06-25 07:45 pm UTC (link)
	This topic comes up every couple of weeks and I think you will find an overwhelming response of agreement from both our male and female members. No, you aren't being over-sensitive. Some of us have had the word used in almost every single story that was told about a boss or fight or PvP. The fact that your GM and some officers agree means that something should be done about this. (Reply to this)

exploding_candy
2007-06-25 07:46 pm UTC (link)

:( I for one don't think you're being too sensitive at all. It makes me wince a little when people throw that word around, too. Have you tried speaking to your guildies individually about this? If you have an otherwise good relationship with him, sending them a whisper and explaining to them exactly what it is they say that bothers you and why (generally, if details are too personal), and just ask them to say "owned" or "wrecked" or something instead of "raped". Young males can be astoundingly oblivious creatures, especially if they've led fairly sheltered lives and/or haven't had much interaction with women. You may have to really spell it out for them, and remind them repeatedly if they fall back into old habits. My guess would be that they're a little naive and honestly don't understand how deeply this bothers you and why. You'll have to (politely) take them to task about it. I really hope that they value you enough to respect your simple request.

I can sympathise; last night in Alterac Valley /bg chat got so mysogynistic and hateful toward women (discussion of "baby machines", "bitches", and "fish markets" were some of the nicer, more repeatable things) that I actually /afk'ed out of the game. I understand that WoW is a total sausagefest, but whatever happened to basic respect for other human beings?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

itsyspy70
2007-06-25 07:57 pm UTC (link)

I have. If the person is not on vent I usually whisper them right away, and tell them that first of all I'm not mad or trying to make them feel bad, but to ask that they please realize that using the word "rape" in a casual context is hurtful and rude, and to please refrain from using it in that manner in the future. A few times I'll mention that 1 in 6 women in the US have been victims/survivors of rape, and that there is a good chance that someone they know has had it happen to them.

It's all the younger guys, they don't even realize what they're saying and why/how it's offensive to so many people. Every single one I've talked to about it personally has been mortified when I explained things to them, apologized and said sincerely that they are trying/will try to be more mindful in the future, so I guess I shouldn't get so discouraged, it's just disheartening to have 3 different guys do this in the past week alone. Maybe I should reply in guild chat or make a post on guild forums rather than whisper reply? I've no idea. I don't want to throw a huge hissyfit about it, or shame people into behaving themselves, I just want everyone to be respectful of *everyone* in the guild, and casual use of the word rape is disrespectful to everyone, male or female.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

sister_b
2007-06-25 07:51 pm UTC (link)

I don't think you're being too sensitive about it, especially considering your reasons. I would think that it should definitely be brought up somehow in a guild that it's hurtful to use the word "rape" so casually. You're supposed to feel comfortable around guildmates, right? It wouldn't kill them to make an effort to keep the group a fun place to be without killing other people's enjoyment with their language.

Also, I know that you're mainly addressing guildmates with your letter; but a lot of female players will use the word in such a context as well. It's not just the young males.

(Reply to this)

katdakiwi
2007-06-25 07:51 pm UTC (link)

argh, I definately know how you feel about this. You're not overreacting at all, you have a right not to put up with that kind of language, you're a valid guild member just like them and the leadership of the guild should stand up and tell them this isn't appropriate behaviour.

I had some problems with an old guild who used the term "rape" a lot, not to mention talking about spousal abuse. It got to the point one night where I was so angry I was shaking and unable to type that the guys were joking about beating wives (Its a very sore topic for me), when I asked them to stop because it 1)bothered me and 2) we were in a raid and that wasn't the place for those kinds of comments, THEY ripped into ME. This was just the last straw in a number of weeks of immature behaviour and inappropriate comments being made without consequence. I had held my tongue until then, talked to other members in the guild who I knew weren't so happy with it either and we knew something needed to change. Its not right to alienate members of your guild.

I ended up having a talk to the GM about it, my hubby talked to the gm and told him that It would take a miracle for me to want to raid again. I had had it with them getting away with this talk when our number 1 guild rule was respect for your other guild mates. It showed me that I had a lot of friends who were willing to stuck up for me, and made me greatful for them being there and making me come back to raiding. I also started standing up for myself more.

Long story short, the guys ended up being reprimanded and eventually left the guild. Unfortunately the guild kinda died about 2 months later, and while my new guild still has some of the old people from that guild, the troublemakers and less mature members have moved on to places where they don't mind that stuff.

I really hope things work out for you in your situation :) sometimes people just don't think before they type or open their mouths which really sucks.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

itsyspy70
2007-06-25 08:16 pm UTC (link)

Yeah, the biggest issue in my guild is not malice or ill-will, it's simple thoughtlessness, and that's hard to change.

*So* sorry to hear about that level of BS in your old guild, such a negative and demeaning verbal environment is hard to deal with, in-game or out. Kudos to you for working to rectify the situation, though it should have never escalated to that point.

If it happens again I will be asking the Guild Leader to make a post/announcement in gchat about it, as well as ask the officers to be more proactive about reminding/reprimanding this sort of thing. I just don't want to be the watchdog for it, yanno?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

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katdakiwi, 2007-06-26 03:10 pm UTC (Expand)

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	dahlea 2007-06-26 01:46 am UTC (link)
	Sadly enough, I've seen girls in this group thinking that guild name is "funny" (Reply to this) (Parent)

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leiamanda, 2007-06-26 05:57 am UTC (Expand)

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dahlea, 2007-06-26 02:23 pm UTC (Expand)

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leiamanda, 2007-06-26 03:12 pm UTC (Expand)

	moober 2007-06-25 08:00 pm UTC (link)
	I agree. Sadly, I think it needs to be addressed to males and females. IRL and in WoW, I hear that word used casually by just as many women as men (not in my guild, but in general). It's disturbing. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	itsyspy70 2007-06-25 08:11 pm UTC (link)
	Thankfully I have not personally seen/heard any of the ladies in my guild speak like this, though I wouldn't really be surprised that others have not had the same experience. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

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moober, 2007-06-25 08:17 pm UTC (Expand)

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itsyspy70, 2007-06-25 08:25 pm UTC (Expand)

	noabsolutes 2007-06-25 08:04 pm UTC (link)
	Interestingly, in my guild the people who throw that word around most are the girls. Talk with your GM/officers, tell him/her/them that the use of this word really bothers you. The best thing they can do is bring it up (on the forums, in vent, in gchat) OUT OF NOWHERE, so the offenders don't feel targeted. (Reply to this)

__amelioration
2007-06-25 08:12 pm UTC (link)

I could't really control what the server said, however I spoke privately with my GM at the time and confronted the issue.

I don't think you're overreacting or being overly sensative. I've unfortnantly been personally affected (or effected...not sure which) by rape and I don't need A GAME to remind me of it. I'm playing the game because I enjoy it and I like to have fun. I wince everytime I see the word.

I also agree in that it's an issue that needs to addressed not only in WoW but in real life and I also agree that just as many women say it as men.

I think it has to do with the fact that our current societal status has "hardened" the younger generations to issues such as these. I know, at least, when I've been dragged to some horror film I don't wince anymore when someone gets their finger chopped off.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

itsyspy70
2007-06-25 08:31 pm UTC (link)

See, I'd like to think that by me being proactive about it I'm slowly making a small difference, however slight it may be, about how people think and speak about rape. I'm very sorry that you've experienced it yourself, no one should joke about it, precisely because there are so many things that can trigger painful/stressful memories, no one needs any "help" from thoughtless conversation to induce more.

It might be that society is "hardened" to all forms of violence; physcial, verbal, sexual, but I think at it's core, this is an issue of lack of respect for fellow human beings.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

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__amelioration, 2007-06-26 02:14 am UTC (Expand)

	gamer_gal 2007-06-25 08:33 pm UTC (link)
	I agree with you. I can't stand seeing people using "rape" in the description of things. Like I __ that town or I was ____ by that mob. I hate it. I want to scream when I see it. (Reply to this)

	cammyd 2007-06-25 08:47 pm UTC (link)
	/signed (Reply to this)

tamchronin
2007-06-25 08:56 pm UTC (link)

Wow. I really AM the only girl in the guild who doesn't agree with you.

I've been raped. I use the term all the time in game, and have the ability to remove the association with the horribly traumatic events in my life from the playful "Yeah, we totally raped that boss" or "Damn, that mob totally raped me."

I can choose to be offended by every little thing that I come across in my life, or I can get on with my life and take back my power. I'm not a victim. I'm a survivor. And part of surviving is acknowledging that the world is not going to change and pussy foot around me and treat me as special just because something bad happened to me.

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)

tamchronin
2007-06-25 09:02 pm UTC (link)

ON THE OTHER HAND, I have to add something.

I'm not a complete bitch, honestly. ^_^ That was just my kneejerk reaction to this topic. If you've told the people involved that it bothers you, and why it bothers you, they're being pretty jerky to keep doing it. Insensitive, crude, and immature.

They're probably not going to change without some huge reason to do so. You have choices. Don't sit in guild chat and victimize yourself. You can educate them, or you can accept that they're not going to change. Weigh the importance of the issue to you. If you can't get over it, you should leave. If you're not comfortable with their behavior and they refuse to change, find a group of people who share your point of view.

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itsyspy70, 2007-06-25 09:21 pm UTC (Expand)

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tamchronin, 2007-06-25 09:45 pm UTC (Expand)

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equiraptor, 2007-06-26 01:20 pm UTC (Expand)

	hoodxornament 2007-06-25 09:01 pm UTC (link)
	/applaud you (Reply to this)

	bestdaywelived 2007-06-25 09:15 pm UTC (link)
	UGH do not get me started. My FH was "asked to leave" our guild for questioning a policy in chat ... while some asshole who make crude comments about OMG MY FRIEND WAS TOTALLY RAPED IN THE ASS, CAN U IMAGINE?> wasn't even warned. Luckily for us, we left, the guild crumbled (like you fab ladies said it would), and some of our core group is starting a new one. (Reply to this)

	watersoluble 2007-06-25 09:33 pm UTC (link)
	I hate that word too... I've encountered several characters with the word rape in their names... things like "irapeyou" and "fagrape"... I don't even understand how these characters made it past level ten without being reported. So offensive. (Reply to this)

gaederon
2007-06-25 10:01 pm UTC (link)

I do nothing to hide the fact that I am a male who plays female characters. You will find that anyone who reads a forum intended for females will tend to agree with them more than they would with "the boys". That is what I do, agree with you.

The use of words like "Gay", "Rape" and other terms is considered crude, offensive and is sufficient cause to have people fired from jobs, relieved from duty and subjected to a number of social and political alternatives to "elimination". They get kicked out, refused entrance and written up as "unacceptable".

I take offense at the use of this kind of empty language, because that is what it is. The use of a term to mean something completely different than it's definition is a common social disorder among adolescents. It is an attempt to take power, segregate themselves from others, and especially distinguish themselves from parents, teachers and other persons in positions of authority and responsibility.

There is little more to be said about this other than to emphasize that no matter what you do, you are going to have a bunch of teen age boys playing a game marketed to teen age boys. And when those boys get together, they will follow their classic herd instinct, and act like a bunch of feral beasts, breathing out their social epithets, exhaling words of which they have no understanding and generally acting like the bad little children they actually are.

If they use a word like "Rape" to mean "Take power, dominate and plunder" then they are actually close, but not accurate. Kids tend to use words they don't understand and laugh about it because they make other people upset, thus proving that they are "powerful" and can "get to you".

On the other hand, good luck getting a GM to do anything about a bunch of adolescent boys playing a game their parents bought for them, and their parents pay monthly fee to keep playing, cause the company would go out of business if they actually banned that kind of behaviour and did anything about it. They'd have only 10-20% of the customer base they have now.

Should we stoop to the level of thes imbecilles? No. Should we pander to their remarks? No. Should we let the guild officers and leader make the decision about what to do about these losers? No.

Take charge of the situation. Report it to the leader and his officers, in a forum if necessary, and make sure that they understand you consider the words and behaviour offensive, hostile and will put any members of the guild on ignore if they persist. If the leaders don't like that, then you need a new guild. Preferably one with mature adults in it, who sometimes act like kids, but understand the difference between "Rape" and "Win".

(Reply to this)

gigglerawr
2007-06-25 10:19 pm UTC (link)

Rape is defined as an act of plunder, violent seizure, or abuse; despoliation; violation; any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person.

Rape gets used a lot in my guild chat. Like as in, "Damn son! We raped Loot Reaver last night!"

Now, I'm sure it's probably used the same way your guild and in many other guilds. I don't think those boys mean it in the way that's upsetting you. But since it is, say something. I hate when they use the word cunt or pussy in guild chat or on Vent, so when they do, I tell him to cut it out. Unless you're in a guild full of assholes, I'm pretty sure you'll get them to stop using the term.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	stealingbabies 2007-06-26 09:02 pm UTC (link)
	Totally agreed on this. While I can understand people are more easily to offend than myself, the context people are using "rape" in is valid. Just because it means one thing, doesn't make it ONLY mean that one thing. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	imaginary_guilt 2007-06-25 10:23 pm UTC (link)
	Don’t forget “raep.” (Reply to this)

amiyuy
2007-06-25 10:41 pm UTC (link)

Anyone saying something horribly offensive gets thrown in the Penalty Box where they can't chat in guild. One of our newer members spent almost a week in there (at least 3 days straight) because of some stuff he said. He was still on his trial period, but a great player and guy, he just had to have some sense kicked into him by his RL friends before he realized that his language he was using in gchat was NOT acceptable.

We're a guild of adults, some of their children play sometimes. Sometimes the conversation can get "raunchy" but once it goes too far, it's stopped.

I went with a RL friend/guildee and some of our former guild members on a raid of Silvermoon the other night. She and I were the only ones from our guild and the only females. At least one of the guys in vent was being very offensive, kind of appologized for it, but by the end I just tuned him out. My mic wasn't working so I couldn't say anything, and I was too intimidated to say anything in raid, but...bleh. I'm not sad that group of guys left the guild, they took the worst of the worst with them. Weeded ours out without us having to do anything, lol.

(Reply to this)

snowflakelike
2007-06-25 10:44 pm UTC (link)

I saw this in general chat on my pvp server. I haven't seen it in general on my pve server, but I have had general turned off for a very long time (now that I have a guild whose chat is entertaining - go dota and doth!)

I hate that use, too, and I've totally seen women who say that they know what it means is different and therefore they don't care, and I just don't understand that point of view. For a long time it was known as "a fate worse than death" and just because we see it on the news and in movies, etc., so much doesn't mean we should become desensitized.

(Reply to this)

soapygirl
2007-06-25 10:54 pm UTC (link)

Amen.

And I would be a gadfly and add that men can be the victims of rape and abuse as well.

When people are being offensive we should all try and speak up for ourselves. I was in vent with a younger member of my guild and she kept saying "queer this" and "queer that" and I finally said "Look please stop using queer as an adjective like that becuase I find it offensive." And she stopped for the time being.

(Reply to this)

	the_violet_star 2007-06-25 11:04 pm UTC (link)
	It doesn't offend me personally, for whatever reason, but I could definitely see why it bothers you. Quite frankly, I'd report them if they do it again (assuming Blizzard gives a shit, that is). (Reply to this)

zhoulien
2007-06-25 11:53 pm UTC (link)

I dislike the frequent use of that word too... However note this isn't something that only happens to women. This post isn't privacy locked so I wont say my personal experience with it other than a family member also dealt with it. I was raped during a relationship, went to the police and their hands were tied on doing much... I had a doctor that was stupid and asked infront of the party that did it when I nearly lost my baby while early in pregnancy at the time. So I am perhaps a bit more sensitive to the term "rape"

I also personally get bugged by the "N" word usage. My children are bi racial(celt/asian) so that is part of it but I have always hated racism. I have heard some claim it is a group reclaiming the word or whatever... still bottom line is it is a derrogatory thing and I don't like insults hurled at any group. One person on the server I'm on in the forums has posted some video from some site repeatedly using that term or poking at the disabled. Aside from that they seemed alright but I don't think they get quite how offensive it is. They are lucky I'm not a confrontational person or I'd of flamed their ass big time. Because I also happen to be multiply handicaped with a child with stuff. We don't fit a stereotype and while we can joke about how we are and some stereotypes... some material just goes a bit too far and is blatantly offensive. I don't like overly political correctness stuff but neither do I like the flip side that goes the other way and then when you do point out they went to far/were an idiot they try to use "anti political correctness" as a justification for their behaviour.

If you wouldn't talk like that in a coffee shop with friends, over a nice dinner with someone, or at a family gathering/dinner why is it acceptable? If they had lived it they might not find it so great.(I have experienced racism, so has one of my kids, I have experienced biggotry for being different to the point of people trying to seriously hurt me, and I have been assulted... such things aren't cool or funny)

(Reply to this)

	bom_deucey 2007-06-26 01:25 am UTC (link)
	I'm a male and I used to volunteer as a sexual assault counselor for many years. I'm also an officer in a guild. I'm sensitive to the word "rape" being used casually. I haven't brought it up on our forums because I know I'm overly sensitive to it. After reading this post, I've copied your post on our forums for discussion. (Reply to this)

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