Peyote Solidities ([info]obstruce) wrote in [info]worldofwarcraft,
@ 2008-04-22 16:08:00
Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Current mood: curious
Current music:"Gronlandic Edit" Of Montreal

Fight! Fight!
So recently, one of my best friends in the world--and the woman who introduced me to WoW (damn her!)--was having a "discussion" with me, about healer gear. This turned very quickly into a barely-constrained argument (read: catfight), and after having thought over it for several days, I would love to hear how others feel about this topic.

Sorry, in advance, if this has been discussed previously.

Also, in advance, I do not want a genuine fight to break out over this. I am more interested in hearing opposing viewpoints--the reason being, I am considering changing my opinion (outwardly, at least). :P

The discussion started over the mention of druids, shaman, and paladins, wearing armor with good stats and +healing, that was less than their maximum armor proficiency. (That is, druid wearing cloth; shaman wearing cloth or leather; paladin wearing cloth, leather, or mail; etc.) In my opinion, this is totally acceptable; while I think that one should try to find gear of your expected armor proficiency, I also see no problem upgrading to a piece that is below that maximum. There are a few times I have seen this happen, especially in gearing up new 70s in Kara and heroics--yes, there are good pieces out there for you, with a higher armor value, but it could take you a long time to get it and we need your healing to be better NOW!

(Side note: This would be invalid to me, however, in the following scenario: Cloth healing gear drops; three healers need it; one is a priest, one a druid, one a paladin; if the cloth-only wearer needs it, then IMO, the druid and paladin should in no instance be rolling, because they can get better, but the priest cannot.)

My aunt--the woman with whom I was arguing--does not agree, however. She says that, considering that there are good leather/mail/plate healing pieces, there should in no occasion whatsoever, be a druid/shaman/paladin wearing cloth/leather/mail gear. Her main argument is that they do not have the aggro management capabilities of a priest, and therefore need all the armor they can get--she argues their main selling point, as a healer, is the increased armor, and therefore, increased chance of surviving loose aggro.

This is a valid point, in my opinion, but once you hit Kara and onwards, I think it becomes increasingly invalid. Why? Because in Kara and beyond, if you have a mob on your healer--especially, a boss--the shit has pretty much hit the fan, regardless; a mob will tear through a healer pretty quickly--whether it tears through the priest in one hit, or the paladin in five, is usually irrelevant (in my experience). Not to mention the fact that if a healer catches aggro in a raid, it is 80% of the time because the tank is dead, not because the tank failed to hold aggro. And while there are fights with random aggro/attacks, or AoE attacks, most of these are magic (please correct me if I am wrong--it has been a while since I raided!) and therefore armor does not much help.

I would love to hear more opinions on this, however! I'll be eagerly awaiting e-mail notifications. :P




(Post a new comment)


[info]redarius
2008-04-22 09:03 pm UTC (link)
armor value is the least important stat on any piece of gear for a healer. it is so irrelevant that it doesn't even need to be mentioned in a discussion about healer gear.

blizzard's done so much work improving itemization even before, but especially since TBC that it's not much of a topic. will i gladly equip a piece of epic healer cloth or leather on a resto shaman? shit yes! do i have to anymore? nope.

personally, i wouldn't try to win it unless it was defaulted to the raid (that is, no one limited to that gear type needed it), but that's a preference thing, and anyone stressed about the class of armor another character is using should back away from the game slowly and try getting some sunshine. ;)

Edited at 2008-04-22 09:05 pm UTC

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]pope_guilty
2008-04-22 09:05 pm UTC (link)
If I were a plate/mail/leather healer and a cloth healing piece dropped, I would definitely give the holy priest first dibs.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]redarius, 2008-04-22 09:25 pm UTC

[info]pope_guilty
2008-04-22 09:04 pm UTC (link)
I'm gonna have to say that she's absolutely wrong. Armour on a priest is as useless as, if I can mangle Gloria Steinem's quote, a bicycle to a fish. +Int, +Spirit, + Healing, +mp5; these are the only things a raiding priest should be thinking of.

Furthermore, Priests don't really have aggro management capabilities; we have a very, very weak aggro dump that lasts very briefly, and we GET IT ALL BACK the instant we pick up any aggro once it wears off. It's not even an aggro dump, more of a temporary aggro suppressor. Druids can shift to cat (I think) and cower and pallies can bubble; I dunno about Shamans.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]critus
2008-04-22 09:11 pm UTC (link)
Perhaps I'm mistaken, but the argument was not that Priests needed armor. It was that other classes who can wear the higher armor items do.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]pope_guilty, 2008-04-22 09:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]critus, 2008-04-22 09:17 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pope_guilty, 2008-04-22 09:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]critus, 2008-04-22 09:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jsciv, 2008-04-23 01:22 am UTC

[info]arwenoid
2008-04-22 09:12 pm UTC (link)
shaman's can reincarnate. ;)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]hiredg00n, 2008-04-22 09:56 pm UTC

[info]stanleytweedle
2008-04-22 09:26 pm UTC (link)
Shammys can die. Then they reincarnate (hopefully) and kick some more ass :)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]critus, 2008-04-22 09:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]stanleytweedle, 2008-04-22 11:48 pm UTC

[info]jsciv
2008-04-23 01:20 am UTC (link)
First thing, I must address a myth. Druids cannot shift to cat and cower in any reasonable way as a healer. Yes, the keypresses are available, but a) it's single target so you have to stop what you're doing to target the mob assuming... b) it's single target so there can only be one thing on you. c) You're unable to heal (others or yourself), use potions, or otherwise do anything related to your job. d) You have to spend time and/or mana to get back to where you CAN do your job. e) Since shifting to cat invokes the GCD you still have 1.5 secons to wait before it even provides that meager benefit. Cower was designed to be a cat analogue to rogue abilities, NOT to be a healing tool. Honestly, if I get aggro I just pop Barkskin and run toward someone of a tank-ish persuasion.

To weigh in on the actual question: I do believe that armor matters. In ZA and in T5/T6 instances it's quite frequent that you get stray aggro from an add (hello eagle boss I'm looking at you, you too Tidewalker murlocs and Hyjal trash!) or from a boss designed spread the love. More than once I've lived just fine and dandy from a hit by an add that one-shotted a priest. Sure I lose a few seconds healing myself, but I live a lot longer than the angel of failure over there, even if I'd have had 5 more +healing from that pretty dress.

There's no such thing as a perfect aggro dump for anyone with heal spells. Pallies have it easiest, but priests are next. Druids and shaman mostly just have "deal with it" as their recourse, but that is IMO part of what the armor is for. I DO look at the armor on pieces, although as others point out it is less important to me than some other stats.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]democritus
2008-04-22 09:12 pm UTC (link)
The cloth should go to cloth-only people first, bottom line. Every armor level class above cloth has that many more opportunities to pick up gear. Anyone that doesn't understand that has never played a clothie.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]critus
2008-04-22 09:15 pm UTC (link)
Agreed.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]hythloday, 2008-04-22 09:46 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]democritus, 2008-04-22 10:07 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]hythloday, 2008-04-22 10:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]democritus, 2008-04-23 01:02 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]hythloday, 2008-04-23 01:53 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]democritus, 2008-04-23 05:20 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]amib, 2008-04-24 08:54 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]democritus, 2008-04-24 04:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]amib, 2008-04-25 02:00 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]amib, 2008-04-24 08:58 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]democritus, 2008-04-24 04:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]amib, 2008-04-25 02:06 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]democritus, 2008-04-25 03:16 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]amib, 2008-04-25 07:33 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]democritus, 2008-04-25 03:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]iwanttobeasleep, 2008-04-24 11:56 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]democritus, 2008-04-25 03:11 am UTC

[info]critus
2008-04-22 09:13 pm UTC (link)
Cloth is for girly healers.

As is spirit. :)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]jsciv
2008-04-23 01:24 am UTC (link)
Spirit is for some male cow healers too. :)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]manicdee, 2008-04-23 02:22 am UTC

[info]cultureofdoubt
2008-04-22 09:17 pm UTC (link)
Armour's obviously not without value but...

There are more times that extra +heal or mana regen would have kept the tank up than there are times the extra armour would have kept the healer up. Simple as that.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]pope_guilty
2008-04-22 09:19 pm UTC (link)
Exactly.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]critus, 2008-04-22 09:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cultureofdoubt, 2008-04-22 09:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kikassassassin, 2008-04-22 09:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]critus, 2008-04-22 09:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kikassassassin, 2008-04-22 11:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]democritus, 2008-04-22 10:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cultureofdoubt, 2008-04-22 11:20 pm UTC

[info]pointy111
2008-04-22 09:22 pm UTC (link)
You're right, she's wrong. End of discussion :).

The only argument for her position is that the specific armor gear is generally itemized in favor of that particular class - so you'll find leather and cloth to mostly have spirit, and mail and plate to have mp5. But regardless, her argument is entirely garbage(paladins have DS, hello...).

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]wyntarvox
2008-04-23 01:21 pm UTC (link)
The only argument for her position is that the specific armor gear is generally itemized in favor of that particular class...

This is exactly what I was going to say. I have no problem with Paladins/Druids/Shaman "downgrading" their armour classes for upgrades (so long as the armour-appropriate classes get first priority etc.). However, if a Paladin/Shaman starts to rack up a lot of cloth/leather pieces, they're going to be gimping themselves not just in terms of armour value, but in terms of the stats their particular style of healing requires. Very little (if any) cloth or leather healing pieces have spell crit on them for Paladins, and a lot of it is too spirit-heavy (rather than mp5) for both Shaman and Paladins.

Having said that, it's a personal gripe of mine to see Shaman (ele or resto) using staves rather than 1-handers and swords. I have no real reason, and I won't begrudge a Shaman a piece of loot because of it, I just think it looks odd. The ele shaman I'm levelling through Outlands at the moment will never wield a staff!

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]ktknievel
2008-04-22 09:33 pm UTC (link)
I'm a resto druid and can absolutely see both points. So, this is just a ramble on my opinion.

I rarely raid but I do a *lot* of heroics on my druid. Because of this, I do prefer having more leather then cloth. BUT, I'm more then happy to roll on a cloth upgrade (if and only if no cloth wearers need it) because the +heal aspect of the upgrade is more important to me then the armor.

It comes down to balance between the cloth and leather for me. It's not uncommon for me to get hit once or twice whilst in a heroic so I definitely want SOME armor and because of that and my semi-low (but not terrible) stamina, I will never wear more cloth then leather.

As of this moment, I'm only wearing one cloth piece Boots of the Pious, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't equip another if the time came.

But again, this is for a semi-raider (maybe 1 raid a week) so I don't think it holds as much weight as other peoples opinions.

(Reply to this)


[info]kyidyl
2008-04-22 10:00 pm UTC (link)
As others have said, you're right she's wrong. =D

I can't think of a single occation where I would say "If I'd JUST had a little more armor we wouldn't have wiped". However, there are MANY occations where I've been like "#@$%#@$^% I wish I had more +heal/int/mp5."

As a druid, I do wear cloth if it was an upgrade for what I had, but I've never beaten out a clothie for it (I started running Kara w/ my guild after most of them had gotten what they wanted from it.). Most were drops, but some were quest rewards. *shrugs* Armor is the least important thing to me about a piece of gear, I honestly don't even look at it when choosing, cause I couldn't care less about it.

I'll also be honest and say most of the time I don't even look to see if something is cloth or leather. This is a (bad, now) habit I picked up pre-BC raiding when the best gear I could get (MC, ony, and ZG were what I was running most, and back then the druid tiered sets sucked SO HARD, as did most of our itemization.) was most times cloth. Because of this there really was no taboo about rolling against a clothie for it, a healer was a healer (I also play Alliance, we didn't have Shaman then.) and if it was an upgrade in everything that mattered, it was an upgrade. Now, I don't really HAVE to wear cloth, it's just happened that the upgrades I've come across have been cloth. When the leather counterparts for them drop, I'll roll on those if the stats on them is an upgrade. *shrugs* :) I don't know any healers who could even tell you what their armor IS, let alone who choose gear for it.

(Reply to this)


[info]tridus
2008-04-22 10:13 pm UTC (link)
I can't really disagree with people, for the most part. I think they undervalue armor though. I had a Magisters Terrace group that only lived on the third boss because of the Resto Shaman's ability to take hits. On my Holy Priest, staying alive in that fight is a constant "pray to god I don't get stunned while my trinket is on cooldown" type of thing.

But when your primary job is healing output and mana regeneration (to keep up the healing output), those are the stats you go for. If its on cloth and the Priests don't need it, go nuts. "Clothadin" is a well known term for just this reason, there's a stretch where the best Paladin healing gear is not plate (no longer true for the most part, plate healing itemization has improved drastically since BC).

I think its the first boss in Black Temple that drops a leather healing hat with no Spirit and tons of MP5. Its crap for Tree Druids. Its awesome for Shaman. Who cares if its leather?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]iwanttobeasleep
2008-04-25 12:21 am UTC (link)
I agree! Armor isn't useless at all for healers. Obviously you want to take an awesome cloth piece over a good plate one, but being able to take hits means you can start healing sooner without worrying about pulling aggro, and if you do pull the tank has more than a split second to get it off you. Especially if you're pugging, and you don't know the tank's style or how they take damage, or pulls with ads. Obviously int, mp5, and +healing are more important stats, but armor isn't a completely useless stat.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Caution: Rambling ahead... Beware of falling justifications.
[info]swampers
2008-04-22 10:25 pm UTC (link)
Armour means nothing to a healer. Unless it's a plate-wearing healer with the armour saying 'this'll stop 55% of physical damage - don't you feel like a king?' Palas are scary like that.

There's a healing class for every armour type. That much is a given. The important part is that there are 'regen' stats that tend to come on different armour types: spirit for the cloth (priest) and leather (druid/brocolli); MP5 for the shammy and pala (mail and plate respectively.)

If a priest/druid takes too much MP5, they gimp their healing - because spirit (so long as the player hasn't constructed some kind of randomly-talented chimera!) adds to their +healing. Also, they have the kind of casting style that lets them sit outside the 5 second rule and actually gain some mana from it. Woohoo for spirit-based regen.

A shammy and a pala work on a different principle: MP5 works inside that 5 second rule, and they would be wasting their time trying to sit outside of it. There's really no point in trying to gain a few precious more mana from not casting - the difference tends to be minor. Of course, you can dress a pala (for example) up in clothie gear and heal like a priest, but that would be missing the point again: Shaman/Paladin healing talents encourage them to SPAM their heals, after all. :P

So cloth/leather (itemised for spirit) is appropriate for priest/druid. Only the druid can wear both, so I'd not be surprised to see them doing so with the occasional item. Mail/plate for the MP5 is best for shamans and palas, and only the pala can wear both, so again I'd not be surprised to see them doing so either. A shaman might wear a few pieces of leather, but I'd recommend against it unless (somehow) it has MP5. Why? Because, apart from the regen stat (and armour) nothing else really differs. So you're min-maxing between regen and all other healing stats. Don't do that if you can just max-max! :P

So, although the Druid can wear cloth and not be (by regen) disadvantaged, and the Pala can wear mail, what do I think about them rolling on cloth and mail respectively? Well, I think it's ok... unless you're rolling against the healing class it was meant for. And then you should step back and let them have it, because they can't have leather/plate and you'd be a git to go for it otherwise.

As for a pala/shammy wearing cloth? So long as 1) there are no priests at all (I'd pass it over to a shadow priest for off-spec) and 2) you realise it's a stopgap (I don't care how pretty it is) ...well, then, I guess it's ok. After all, it's better than seeing it DE'd if it has any use at all.

EDIT: too many mentions of cloth

Edited at 2008-04-22 10:28 pm UTC

(Reply to this)


[info]teniblue
2008-04-22 10:28 pm UTC (link)
Your aunt is being close-minded. All my 70s are clothies, but I will be the first to let another non-priest healer roll on a cloth heal item... AS LONG AS IT'S NOT AN UG FOR ME.

I think it's wrong for a druid/shaman/pally to roll on a cloth +heal item against my healing priest.

But if the item is not an UG for me, then I would actually prefer that the non-clothie healer get the item, over a cloth dps caster (even with the +damage that the heal items now have).

I've seen druids wearing the tailored BoP Primal Mooncloth set and I don't have an issue with that, either (other than that seeing a big bull wearing a white and purple robe caused a double-take).

(Reply to this)


[info]metao
2008-04-22 11:42 pm UTC (link)
IMO youre right.

Healers all have great aggro management (read: limited threat generation) these days. I will never rip, but sometimes Ill pull something that is untanked. Thats not my problem, its the tanks problem.

The main selling point of Druids/Shamans/Paladins vs Priests are, in order:

HoTs, group healing abilities, MoTW for resists.
Blessings, Resistance Auras, durability, doesn't go OOM fast.
Bloodlust, Windfury/Grace and other totems.

It is most definitely NOT how durable a healer is, since if a healer takes a non-AoE hit, your group has already failed.

The best healing shoulders in the game pre-Kara are cloth (I forget their name, they drop in Mech - Vestias something?). They look ridiculous on a Shaman, but when it is that or Tidefury, the choice is fairly clear.

But yeah, its pretty rare that you'd need to "downrank" gear these days.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]iwanttobeasleep
2008-04-25 12:25 am UTC (link)
Why is not going OOM fast rated under durability? I'd say my ability, as a healadin, spam my heal for four minutes straight is far more important than my ability to take four more hits than a priest.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]metao, 2008-04-25 12:49 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]iwanttobeasleep, 2008-04-25 12:51 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]metao, 2008-04-25 01:05 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]metao, 2008-04-25 01:08 am UTC

[info]itslily
2008-04-23 12:03 am UTC (link)
As a shaman, my haste set is comprised of 2 pieces of leather, because they happen to be better suited for me as a shaman than the mail equivalents. That said, I would never take a piece of leather over a druid, since they are unable to get my mail pieces, and leather is all they can get(well, and cloth, but then you're taking it from priests).

Usually, armor within your highest proficiency is best suited for your class. IE, shaman stats will be found on mail, while paladin stats will be found on plate. Yes, if a piece is good for you of a lower proficiency, go for it, but I wouldn't take it OVER the person that it is technically made for. Just me personally.

(Reply to this)


[info]tuftears
2008-04-23 12:21 am UTC (link)
My two cents... No matter how much you emphasize the stats are what matters, it still feels 'ghetto' to me if you have cloth on a druid, let alone a paladin. I have a druid for that matter and I healed all the way through Classic WoW raiding, and some of TBC raiding. This is not really rational, it's a 'feel' thing, but if you're auditioning for a guild then feel does matter.

There is a limited value for having correct armor class gear however. For druids, leather is much better than cloth for when you need to pop into bear to survive until your tank can wrestle the mob(s) off of you. Armor class disparity has somewhat less impact on shamans for using leather, because they get to wear the big fat shield which has as much armor as a druid's whole kit...

There are some encounters where it pays to wear better armor. Nightbane's Bone Blast (used when he's flying and thus untankable) is actually mitigated by armor, and his aggro is drawn to healers by default here, so you want those hits to be going onto the paladin, who can use Righteous Fury to draw his fire.

But yeah, to get you 'up to speed', nothing wrong with downgrading; it's just that you will have to overcome people's prejudice on the subject.

(Reply to this)


[info]entj
2008-04-23 12:28 am UTC (link)
I understand both points. While I agree that you are technically correct, I never like seeing mail and plate wearers in cloth ... not because I have a problem with them wearing gear with stats appropriate to their spec, but because I'd rather see more token-based turn ins (it's good that Blizz seems to be going this direction), so that those folks could have good stats within their maximum armor proficiency. Best of both worlds, as it were.

(Reply to this)


[info]ladyjestyr
2008-04-23 12:59 am UTC (link)
If Blizzard didn't want people to be able to 'downrank' armor, all those cloth healing pieces would say "Class: Priest" on them. They mostly don't.

That said, I don't like downranking my armor too far (I'm a pally) because I like being able to take a few hits before going splat; in fact, I'll sometimes taunt off a lower-armor healer to save them (eg in Magtheridon, I'll taunt infernals off the priests to buy some time while waiting for a warlock to fear. So I'll wear mail in the "smaller" slots (belt, bracers, maybe boots or gloves) if I have to, but I prefer to stick with plate.

I also think that in a _raiding_ situation, it's important not to crowd too many people into one loot pool - there are plate and mail and leather equivalents of pretty much all the cloth healing pieces, just sitting on a different boss. The clothies can /only/ roll on the cloth. It's like dealing with fury warriors, survival hunters and enhancement shammies who want to roll on melee DPS leather - that's fine, it might be better than the mail/plate equivalents for them, but it really crowds out the rogues and feral druids who can't fall back on the mail and plate, for whom leather is the _only_ option.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]hythloday
2008-04-23 02:05 am UTC (link)
Actually the rogues and druids have the option of sticking with what they have (say, t4), which is often better for them than the plate pieces in t5 would be for warriors.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]manicdee
2008-04-23 03:01 am UTC (link)
There is no hard and fast rule that can apply to all situations.

Say you're in Karazhan, attending the opera. It's Romulo and Julianne. You have a tree druid and a disc/holy priest in the raid. Resto druid is in pretty good pre-Kara blues, on about +900 healing, 300 spirit. The disc/holy priest is in Primal Mooncloth belt and shoulders, 2/2 whitemend. The disc/holy priest is a casual, and expects to farm up the mats for the Primal Mooncloth robe in the next three weeks (this priest tends to log in for occasional raids during the week, then farms like mad on Saturdays while working at the video store). The druid attends raids religiously and still heals guild runs through Shadow Labs and Steamvaults even though he's exalted with both factions and would prefer to be doing Sunstrider Isle dailies.

When Julianne drops the Masquerade Ball Gown, do you give it to the druid because it's a huge upgrade, let both healers roll on it, or give it to the priest because the druid can wear leather too? What other factors influence your decision?

In many cases, cloth healing gear is itemised for holy priests. IMO paladins and shamans shouldn't even be thinking about taking cloth healing gear that has a large chunk of its budget spent on spirit. If the cloth gives the character an upgrade, with no better non-cloth item available within the next two bosses, go for it.

If healers are pulling aggro, get better tanks :P

(Reply to this)


[info]alexia
2008-04-23 03:44 am UTC (link)
Eh my only healer is a Priest and I have to say I don't really care if I have to roll against people from other armor classes for stuff. What's good for them is good for them and provided they can argue out why they need the stats on the gear then the armor class is really irrelevant. I'd be skeptical about something like a Pally taking a bunch of Spirit stacked cloth, but that's an issue with stats, not the item piece.

DPS classes have this problem as well. 80% of the 'best in game' quality items for enhancement shaman are leather. Boomkin can often find more and better upgrades in cloth gear and so on. I tend to think it's largely irrelevant provided the item is a genuine and serious upgrade. Honestly, whether I'm in mail or leather if I pull aggro I'm dead, so the real issue is what has the best stats to let me perform at my best. Beyond that Blizz has said that they expect certain classes, particularly hybrids, to fill out their gear with items that may have been initially intended for other classes, and it's fairly clear that that's something they have in mind when they design gear.

(Reply to this)


[info]lady_alien
2008-04-23 02:09 pm UTC (link)
But..but the stats are totally different.. Plate armor tends to have spellcrit on it, mail - mp5, cloth and leather - spirit, which is useless to both shammies and pallies.. The only real problem here is since 2.4 when spirit suddenly became so much more useful to druids, and there's a ton of leather with mp5 instead of spirit on it (yes, Guise of the Tidal Lurker, I'm looking at you, you should be mail item). Then again, I'd pass on any cloth item to a priest, because they're more limited in their choices than I am as a resto druid.

(Reply to this)


[info]xella
2008-04-23 04:26 pm UTC (link)
In a raiding situation, the only time AC becomes important is a) if you're a tank or b) if you're a tank. I say there are two "tank" situations because there's a) the warrior/druid/paladin tank and b) the strange fight mechanics, like on Gurtogg Bloodboil, where every minute and a half or so, the boss will cast a debuff called "fel rage" on a random person in the raid, which increases their health and armor and they essentially "tank" the mob for the duration of the debuff.

Armor scales; that is, the more of it you have, the more useful it is (up to a certain point). In caster form, my druid (dreamstate healing specced, in her DPS gear which admittedly is mostly cloth) has 2080 armor (w/MotW). 2080 armor will reduce the physical damage I take by 16.46%. In bear form, that goes up to 7820 AC, or 42.55% reduction.

Let's say then that Stupid Mob A does a physical attack that does 1000 damage against a target with 0 armor. In caster form, my druid would mitigate 165 of that, meaning that SMA will do 835 damage to her. If my druid was in bear form when that mob hit her, it would only do 574 damage. IIRC, you can only mitigate up to 75% of damage with armor though, so once you hit the armor "cap" the diminishing returns on how powerful it is starts making it not worth it to stack.

That being said though, if a raid boss gets loose and starts going after healers, the only ones that MIGHT survive are paladins; priests, druids, and shaman are all basically equally fucked (and the paladin isn't going to last very long anyway, because even though he's in plate with a shield, healing gear is generally not itemized for armor, he has no real avoidance numbers for things like dodge or parry, and if he's spam healing himself, he can't block). Obviously it depends on the encounter, but meh.

In my opinion, it doesn't matter a whole lot in a raid what the armor class on someone's gear is (enhancement shaman are usually in 75%+ leather due to poor mail itemization), so long as their stats are correct. It used to matter a lot more; I played a druid pre-TBC when a resto druid in resto leather could offtank a loose trash mob in Blackwing Lair (and often did) but nowadays mobs simply hit too hard, too fast, and with too much crushing ability (the reasons tanks don't die when others will is because they're at the defense cap so the mob can't crit them, they have a lot of avoidance like parry and dodge, and they can mitigate a lot of the damage coming in with block or armor, so the mobs can't crush them. Healers are not going to have any of that extra stuff and are liable to get both crushed AND crit).

Also, true story: a long time ago, my mother was running Durnholde as a resto shaman. Her group was consistiently wiping because she would get healing aggro and die, so she tried swapping out some of her healing gear for her enhancement gear because it had more armor on it. Her group got CONSIDERABLY worse from that point onwards, because now not only was she pulling healing aggro, but her heals weren't enough to keep her and the rest of the group up because she had lost so many vital healing stats for armor.

Long story short, if you're getting healing aggro as a healer often enough for armor to become a big issue, you need to make your tank re-look their tanking strategy, or CC better, or SOMETHING.

(Reply to this)


Create an Account
Forgot your login or password?
Login w/ OpenID
English • Español • Deutsch • Русский…