Lane ([info]lane) wrote in [info]worldofwarcraft,
@ 2008-04-17 10:50:00
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So, I'm a scrub...
A friend linked me an article, Playing to Win, that's been on my mind ever since I read it. It doesn't specifically refer to WoW, but it is commentary on competitive gaming using PvP in Street Fighter as an example. It's an old article, so perhaps many of you have read it already.

Regardless, according to this article I'm a "scrub", which probably explains a lot of the mentality I've received from hardcore arena players even though I consider myself a career PvPer. I don't take offense to that fact and I have no problems admitting the playstyle I find enjoyable does not include high end competition, which I find stressful and not fun. I don't pay $15/mo. to not have at least some form of contentment with what I'm doing.

I admit, I do find a lot of things in PvP "cheap" mainly because not every class has a counter to it. As we all know, WoW is not balanced around 1v1 PvP and the term "anti-class" exists for a reason. It's for this reason I don't put much stock in arenas, especially 2v2s and to a slightly lesser extent 3v3s. They're mostly based around the overpowered classes du jour and their subsequent cookie cutter teams.

According to the article you're a scrub if you play for fun, which I find interesting. I played arenas with my friends and I think we actually got down to about a 1300 rating or thereabouts because we had one of the worst composed 5v5s known to man with a full 10 man roster we switched around based on whoever happened to be online. Now, in WoW terms that means I suck at PvP because the 'thing to do' is armory someone and then ridicule their gear, team and rating, which doesn't always do much to reflect actual skill. It's kind of frustrating that's become the bar by which to measure someone's PvP prowess, but regardless...

Then there are the mods. A friend and I were discussing the fact that some of the current mods, including ones that allow you to queue dodge and even see what classes/specs (and their gear) you're facing before you even have visual of the players, doesn't seem fair. The article would suggest these are self-constructed mental rules we've put in place, which is fine. I am very mod light because I've had bad experiences with game performance and multiple mods in the past, so I try to run as 'cleanly' as possible to avoid any issues. This puts me at a severe disadvantage and I accept that. It doesn't change the fact that I don't believe fights are particularly fair if each party isn't equal in their advantages but, yes, that's my fault for not utilizing every resource available to me by choice and makes me a scrub.

All in all, yeah, I PvP mostly for fun so I'm a scrub. Every PvP goal I've ever had has either been superficial (mount) or gear related (as a feral druid in particular it's been necessary to PvP for gear). I just kind of resent when people treat me like a n00b PvPer (after 3 years of it, heh) based almost predominantly on the facts that I'm not hardcore into arena (playing arena unfriendly specs and bad class combos hasn't helped cultivate any interest in them) and prefer 60s PvP before gear discrepancies become such an issue.

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[info]abazoe
2008-04-17 02:52 pm UTC (link)
I arena heavily and I'm still a scrub ;) I'm also a scrub in pve, since I'm in a casualol guild that's just barely moving into 25s. I've long ago accepted that to many other players, that's all I am -- a scrub.

But damn, I have fun playing, so the rest of it doesn't really matter to me.

Oh, and fwiw, queue dodging is le lame and proximo no longer tells you specs of the opposing players -- a good change imo. I use it for easier targeting since I switch targets in 2s approximately eight bazillion times.

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[info]usekh
2008-04-17 02:57 pm UTC (link)
I only skimmed it but I have a suspicion there was a guy who got beaten up a lot at high school :P (of course so did I, but I didn;t channel it into some overly agressive attitudes about A FREAKIN GAME)

Eesh games are to have fun with.

Also he has no idea about military tactics or history :P

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[info]amarafox
2008-04-17 03:06 pm UTC (link)
Man. I just thought the same thing. I want to find the guy and poke him in the eyeballs.

OH NOES I PLAY TO WIN AND I HAVE FUN SCREW YOU, BUDDY.

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[info]usekh
2008-04-17 03:14 pm UTC (link)
One of my old guilds had a joke about players like that "Fun? bah fun is for women and noobs" :P

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[info]lane
2008-04-17 03:26 pm UTC (link)
Bother, I forgot to add that into my post. I do play to win, always, and I use the skills given my class(es), but I don't go much beyond that. I don't run 15+ different mods, I don't have a plethora of macros (probably should just to make overall life easier), I don't look for bugs to exploit, etc. to try and one-up the competition.

I'm fairly content with what I do and how I do it, although it could be a bit more streamlined, I admit. :P

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[info]hythloday
2008-04-17 03:33 pm UTC (link)
(of course so did I, but I didn;t channel it into some overly agressive attitudes about A FREAKIN GAME)

Not trying to be provocative, but do you have the same opinion about chess Grandmasters? What about Olympic-class sportsmen?

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[info]usekh
2008-04-17 03:37 pm UTC (link)
Not trying to be provocative
Yes you are. But anyway. I do, it is insane how much people get worked up over games.

Although lets also get real, there is a lot more at stake there than there is in street fighter or WoW. Realisticaly the examples you gave are professionals, they are doing it for their livelihood as well so it is a little beyond just a game.

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[info]hythloday
2008-04-17 03:53 pm UTC (link)
Attempting to provoke debate, perhaps. :)

The definition of a game is pretty fungible: I'm sure that quite a few executives who treat their jobs in the same way professional game-players treat theirs. Classing one pursuit as a game and the other one not is just a judgement value, really.

It's entirely possible to make a living playing Counter-strike, Starcraft and even WoW.

No doubt the game that you and I play when we log into WoW is (or should be) simply that, and I agree with you that it's silly to get worked up about it if you're treating it as a hobby. However, there are lots of people who log into WoW and don't play it as a game in the same way. I don't necessarily think their aggressive attitude is more misplaced than it would be in an executive job.

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[info]usekh
2008-04-17 03:59 pm UTC (link)
Lets be realistic here. As much as I want to jump on the "Computer games should be treated seriously" they just aren't. And honestly I hope they never are.

You cannot in a meaningful way compare them to a business executive, or a chess grand master or an Olympic Athlete. Whilst I think we pay -way- too much attention to professional athletes their collective performance is worth untold billions of dollars.

Whilst WoW certainly rakes in a LOT of money, it really doesn't matter how much of a nub most of us are in PVP. And as much money as WoW makes, you cannot compare it to Professional Soccer.

Not to mention as an example I played amatuer hockey for years, and whilst we certainly played out best, no we didn't play with the win at all costs mentality of pro atheletes. Because we were playing it as a game, not for out livelihoods.

Or to put it more simply. WoW is not a professional activity. The other things are.

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[info]hythloday
2008-04-17 04:07 pm UTC (link)
To me a professional sporting activity is one that's done to make a living from. What do you define it as?

(If you define it as "one that doesn't involve doing something that I think of as a game", I respect your definition but I don't think we'll get very far discussing this and we should probably end the discussion on good terms.)

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[info]usekh
2008-04-17 04:09 pm UTC (link)
In essence yes. And I am sure there are some gamers who make a living out of it. But realisticaly it is not really a profession. And honestly I hope it never gets to that level. Because then it becomes a whole lot less fun.

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[info]ghostlight
2008-04-17 08:19 pm UTC (link)
Although lets also get real, there is a lot more at stake there than there is in street fighter or WoW. Realisticaly the examples you gave are professionals, they are doing it for their livelihood as well so it is a little beyond just a game.

Okay, now let's re-examine Street Fighter, which people travel across countries to play in $10,000 prize tournaments.

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[info]usekh
2008-04-17 08:24 pm UTC (link)
Which is about a match payment for a soccer player. Now just look at how many professional atheletes there are in the world and compare it to how many professional street-fighter players.

And lastly lets look at if when playing something for a social activity, for fun, you want to play it as cutthroat and ruthless? if so I guess you don't get invited back very often.

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[info]ghostlight
2008-04-18 06:55 am UTC (link)
That's pretty low for a soccer player. But all professional 'sports' have to start at a level where they're being played for fun. Baseball players didn't start off on million dollar salaries, they started off as people taking a children's game way too seriously.
That's exactly what competitive Street Fighter is.

The point was that you were arbitrarily saying that there was nothing at stake, so taking it seriously was stupid. There are people who would identify themselves as professional Street Fighter, just as there was a time when you could play Quake professionally. The article is about the game as a competition, and from this angle there is nobody who shouldn't be playing to win. Even if you play for fun, you should still play to win - that doesn't mean sit at home and spend five hours practicing kick juggling, it means don't whine about rules that can be bent, learn how to use them or how to avoid them.

I've played Street Fighter competitively and I play soccer socially. Both of them were fun - and I still play to win in soccer even though the house rules mean that one side can be up 8 goals and still lose a game. ¿Why? Because playing to win doesn't just mean being a dick, it means playing by the rules and doing the best you can. I don't ram down the 8 year olds, but I also don't let them have free tackles on me just because they're 8. If I did, ¿how would they ever get better?

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[info]extraneousrooot
2008-04-17 03:55 pm UTC (link)
I don't mean to derail this at all, but when I saw your user icon I almost had a stroke. You look exactly like my ex-boyfriend, to the point where I checked your info to see if you were him.

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[info]hythloday
2008-04-17 04:10 pm UTC (link)
:)

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[info]amarafox
2008-04-17 04:04 pm UTC (link)
I do have a similar opinion to olympic class athletes to a point. I think if anything makes you competitive to the point of cheating, being an asshole and being underhanded then it's a problem.

We have Ironman Canada where I live, and some of those athletes make me want to smack them for their disregard for us 'little people'. Some keep the competitive nature and are still in good spirits and do well.

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[info]hythloday
2008-04-17 04:10 pm UTC (link)
If you read the original article (or perhaps one of the spin-off articles) it specifically deals with cheating and sportsmanship, and the author is as against them as you are.

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[info]amib
2008-04-17 05:05 pm UTC (link)
Pretty sure Sirlin isn't against sportsmanship. XD

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[info]hythloday
2008-04-17 05:56 pm UTC (link)
Uh..."and the author has the same opinions as you".

(Technically I didn't *quite* say he was, I guess.)

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[info]pointy111
2008-04-17 03:09 pm UTC (link)
I agree mostly with the OP here. I'm a huge Street Fighter fan myself, and playing "to win" with my friends is entirely not fun - not everyone wants to pour hours of time into the game to become better. So while most of us know the cheap, sorry, WINNING, tactics, we don't use them unless it's to purposefully rile up the other competition.

I'd say it's like Monopoly - you can make it fun for everyone to play, or you can be a hardass and make it a competition and leave someone in tears.

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[info]tnec_niv
2008-04-17 03:21 pm UTC (link)
Hah, my 5v5 was so bad we went below 1000 for a week. We're back up to around 1100, but yeah, we suck. And I'm a scrub because I call any sort of fearing cheap.

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[info]lane
2008-04-17 03:36 pm UTC (link)
We probably could have gone down that far if we'd kept playing, but most of them ended up splintering off into 2v2s and 3v3s and didn't bother with the 5v5 anymore.

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[info]hythloday
2008-04-17 03:39 pm UTC (link)
I quite like Play to Win as an article, because it lays out quite a lot of attitudes that some WoW players are afraid to articulate. I wouldn't class myself as anything other than a scrub in any of the games that I play, purely out of laziness.

It's worth pointing out that the meaning of the word wasn't initially pejorative, despite the fact that it's 100% used that way in the context of WoW.

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[info]lizzab
2008-04-17 03:39 pm UTC (link)
While I think the use of the word "scrub" in this article is a little inflammatory (and probably purposefully so) it touches on some of the realities of the division between casual and competitive players.

I think the article makes a poor assumption in lumping "casual" players with "bad" players. Does being casual make you bad? No. Are most casual players "bad?" Yes. Most people assume this connection because "skill" in this game typically requires more practice and dedication than one commits to at a "casual" pace. However, there are people who do play casually in terms of time commitment who succeed on a competitive level. But - these players have typically previously committed themselves to gaining knowledge and a certain amount of expertise about the game.

It's interesting to many casual players criticize the nature of playing competitively. They claim they cannot see how committing such a large amount of time and effort to a game for the sole purpose of success could be fun - but this is merely just a difference of perspective. As someone who PVPs and Raids on a competitive level, I find it fun strive to be the best player, have the best gear, the best teams, etc. Simply, competitive players find the nature of competition enjoyable. If the nature of being strongly competitive appealed to casual players - that would defeat the purpose of playing casually.

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[info]amib
2008-04-17 05:08 pm UTC (link)
Remember that the context is competitive play of a zero-sum game. In that context, casual players who do not make the decision to improve their gameplay because such-and-such tactic is "cheap" are bad.

The article does not make allowances for playing the game casually because you do not go to a Street Fighter Alpha 3 tournament to play the game casually; you play it in the local arcade or on your console.

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[info]lane
2008-04-17 05:15 pm UTC (link)
I know jack all about Street Fighter tournaments. :) A friend just linked me the article after I'd made some commentary about PvP in WoW.

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[info]iwanttobeasleep
2008-04-17 03:52 pm UTC (link)
Holy strawman, Batman! If the topic matter isn't insulting, the way it's written certainly is.

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[info]lizzab
2008-04-17 03:54 pm UTC (link)
Also, while the armory and arena ratings aren't always an accurate gauge of someone's skill, I don't think you can blame people from making that connection.

This isn't meant to be insulting, but I think a lot of people who play more casually use the excuse that "well, my arena ratings aren't very good because I don't really care and I just play with friends." This can certainly can play into it, but it's unlikely in my mind that if someone who plays casually suddenly decides they are going to play on a more competitive level (ie, finding a team/comp that works, keybinding their abilities, researching their class a bit more)they will be on the fast track to success. There are plenty of people who play "competitively" who are bad. To a certain extent, reflexes, awareness, and a good sense of anticipation will determine your success more than general knowledge will.

I don't think its wrong to play casually at all. I think people should play the game in the manner they enjoy the most. But, I think people should have reasonable expectations about what they get out of the game in regards to what they put into it. Playing casually will generally equate you with a lower rung on the "WoW social ladder" and leave you with less achievements and rewards, and I think that's something people should accept. However, your commitment to this game should never relate to how people treat you as a person.

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[info]tnec_niv
2008-04-17 04:02 pm UTC (link)
Here's me being a bit dense perhaps, but if you don't keybind abilities what exactly do you do?

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[info]kyidyl
2008-04-17 04:15 pm UTC (link)
Click them...

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[info]lane
2008-04-17 04:14 pm UTC (link)
This can certainly can play into it, but it's unlikely in my mind that if someone who plays casually suddenly decides they are going to play on a more competitive level (ie, finding a team/comp that works, keybinding their abilities, researching their class a bit more)they will be on the fast track to success.

Well, it depends. However, as a side note it's only been recently I've turned into a casual due to drastically reduced playtime, so you may not consider that I factor into this equation since for about 3 years I was not playing on a casual level.

Regardless, when I ended up reluctantly respeccing my 70s properly for PvP and grouping with adequate partners we didn't have much trouble winning or hitting a somewhat acceptable rating for the few games we played. I'm not saying we hit 2000 or even 1800, but for for the brief amount of time we played I felt the progress was commendable, especially given that I was new to my specs and we were playing opponents who outgeared us. Probably if we'd kept going we would have run into some issues, but even those we probably could have counteracted over time.

My difficulty with arenas is because of my work schedule now my play times are very erratic, which has basically meant the only partner I can count on is my boyfriend and none of our classes mesh well in arenas. We used to just play for points per week, win or lose, but even that become too frustrating so we decided to drop it. (Not to mention that I recently went back to playing Alliance where I don't know anyone anymore.)

So, yeah, in some cases I have poor arena ratings or no arena ratings and that's used against me when it doesn't really reflect anything relevant.

Regardless, I don't have a problem with people who play competitively and take pride in their accomplishments. I just don't appreciate people jumping to false conclusions about my skill based on my characters' armory profile and then being condescending to me about my skill, which they know nothing of whatsoever.

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[info]iwanttobeasleep
2008-04-17 04:29 pm UTC (link)
This isn't meant to be insulting, but I think a lot of people who play more casually use the excuse that "well, my arena ratings aren't very good because I don't really care and I just play with friends."

If you don't want to be insulting you should probably say "Reason" instead of "Excuse". Because that's what it is. As a casual PVPer I don't have to excuse my bad PVP ratings.

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[info]liloldman
2008-04-17 06:25 pm UTC (link)
The article is interesting enough, but one thing I don't think I saw in the skim of comments here is that sort of attitude doesn't really translate well into an MMORPG - especially the RPG part. I'll also point out that the author doesn't mention RPGs at all, much less WoW. Win at ALL costs? Thats the kind of attitude that will convince people to exploit terrain because "it's a creative usage of the environment." No. It isn't. It's an exploit. You can't kill C'Thun without skipping the other 4 bosses. Grats on getting your guild banned, etc.

Now, a very healthy competitive drive, on the other hand, means you might want to be in a guild that strives for world/region/server firsts. You can be a very hardcore, competitive player and not be a "win at all costs" person - there's a difference.

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[info]ghostlight
2008-04-17 08:26 pm UTC (link)
Thats the kind of attitude that will convince people to exploit terrain because "it's a creative usage of the environment." No. It isn't. It's an exploit. You can't kill C'Thun without skipping the other 4 bosses. Grats on getting your guild banned, etc.

Within the context of Street Fighter, there is no patching of issues and there is nobody banning you. Exploits are common, in Marvel vs Capcom 2 there were several characters who had infinite chains - that is, a moveset that they could theoretically continue doing until the other character was entirely dead. In others, there's slightly misplaced hitboxes that make certain moves much more powerful than they should be, there's unbalanced dragon punches, the list goes on.
The single greatest reason to use them is not just that everybody else will because there's nothing stopping them, but because for the large part they still take skill. My friend knows the infinite for Ironman, but even after three years he can't do it perfectly because the timing is that fiddly.

But, overall, the fact that Street Fighter is played and developed in an entirely different environment, where Capcom doesn't have the ability to fix bugs that creep into the system, makes it entirely different to competitive WoW playing in the 'win at all costs' perspective.

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[info]bink
2008-04-17 09:17 pm UTC (link)
Mods are, in my opinion, fair game unless you have exclusive access to a mod that is gamebreaking, but not publicly available. But even then, you could technically, with time and effort, duplicate or create a mod that will likely perform some desired function--assuming Blizzard allows it.

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[info]adrich
2008-04-17 10:21 pm UTC (link)
In my opinion, the author of that article is missing one major point: all rules to all games are arbitrary.

Video games are kind of unique in this regard because the game can be hard-wired with a set of unbreakable rules, but if I play Monopoly or baseball or poker there's nothing to stop me from changing the rules however I want at any time. The real issue is whether the people participating in the game agree on the rules or not; if two people can't agree to play by the same rules I can't imagine they're going to have much fun together since they're basically each playing a separate game.

As far as WoW goes, the type of attitude presented in that article might work for some people who PvP, but it's also the type of mindset that tends to ruin PvE. In PvP you can rely on other people to challenge you, but in PvE you really have to challenge yourself. Most people I've met who really enjoy PvE tend to be ones who are setting their own goals, even if they don't realize it. "Playing to win" tends to confine you in this regard.

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[info]donnyman
2008-04-17 11:10 pm UTC (link)
what is the point of winning or losing if you can not do it with class or honor?

i am also a scrub. so be it. i would rather be a scrub than someone who gets off on pvp.

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[info]leopardeternal
2008-04-17 11:17 pm UTC (link)
I don't have a problem with competition and win at all costs. What I have a problem with is the attitude that comes with it. Tea bagging, /mocking, and all the rest of that crap that happens when someone wants to rub their win in my face is absolute bullshit.

And the problem with street fighter and connecting it with WoW, is that street fighter is a pretty straight forward game with only one way to play it. There are a multitude of ways to play WoW, with more ways tried every time someone new logs on. Just because I'm not in full S3 gear or in a guild that has wiped the BT clean does not mean I'm playing this game wrong. I am simply playing this game as I want to play it. You want to play it differently or more competitively than me, good for you. You still don't have the right to belittle me because I'm not playing your way. (and I mean this "you" as a general anyone who would treat me this way, not "you the OP specifically")

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[info]ghostlight
2008-04-18 07:11 am UTC (link)
There are a multitude of ways to play WoW, with more ways tried every time someone new logs on. Just because I'm not in full S3 gear or in a guild that has wiped the BT clean does not mean I'm playing this game wrong.

This is possibly the most salient point - Street Fighter has one set of rules that are basically impossible to avoid while playing the game. You both get X HP, with Y rounds, and perform Z moves - X=0=Loss, 2/3Y=Game Win.

Wow on the other hand not only has two clear sets of rules for PvE and PvP, but the rules for PvE often change - this mob is immune to fear, that one to stuns, that one can see stealth... Not only that, but it has an environment that is far more broad, meaning that you can sit and type messages to each other, co-ordindate a group effort against the computer or other players, socialize within the game's context, and many other things. Street Fighter is like chess, you can do whatever you want within the rules, but the game itself cannot play in any other manner other than a direct competition between sides - which is very much unlike WoW, which shares more similarities with a children's party.

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