Lane ([info]lane) wrote in [info]worldofwarcraft,
@ 2007-11-15 09:21:00
Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
How are your heroic PUGs?
Ours are awful. :D It almost seems like the people who argued against heroic keys at honored were right, although I still don't believe running the same dungeon dozens of times is going to make you skilled/geared for other heroics. Regardless!

The past two days my boyfriend's been trying to take advantage of the heroic daily quests. Unfortunately, this has resulted in groups comprised of players in no epics, mediocre blues, and some greens. Last night I believe his heroic Mana Tombs took ~4 hours, involved multiple wipes, and a couple of replacements due to people bailing. Needless to say, it's made him wish that you didn't get saved to a heroic dungeon so if your group isn't competent you can just find another. All in all, the 25g & 2 badges weren't really worth it when it took over 4 hours and 13g in repairs. :(

He managed to PUG a ZA group as well, which wasn't much better. Healers in blues and greens not able to keep up with the amount of damage the epic geared tanks were taking. I suppose that one you can write off as a curiosity run, but in combination with the heroics it's made us wonder if people are really that naive as to how much of an impact their sub-par gear has on their performance. At any rate, he says he's going to start Armory'ing players before joining their groups now. :P

How's it going for ya'll?

(Post a new comment)


[info]yisca
2007-11-15 02:39 pm UTC (link)
Random silly moment of realizing you're missing a lot of the game: Heroics get saved??

I've been so busy getting mats and getting spellstrike + frozen shadoweave made the last few weeks (months actually) I haven't been in a heroic ever... although I am revered with a number of factions and have the keys.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]theantipoet
2007-11-15 03:38 pm UTC (link)
indeed.

heroics all have a 24-hour timer that you get saved to (resets at 2 am server time I think?).

the god news is that there are no respawns till the timer resets, so you could theoretically take all day to clear an instance (I've done it before, mostly because of raids... clear half an instance before the raid, go back after the raid with the same people to finish it up).

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
(no subject) - [info]lane, 2007-11-15 04:04 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]basiecrazy, 2007-11-15 04:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bryneshrimp, 2007-11-15 05:08 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]basiecrazy, 2007-11-15 08:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bryneshrimp, 2007-11-15 09:35 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]theantipoet, 2007-11-16 03:09 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]manicdee, 2007-11-16 05:31 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]olanthe, 2007-11-16 04:51 am UTC

[info]adranta
2007-11-15 02:42 pm UTC (link)
Yeah I'm really not looking forward to heroics now. Thank god badges drop in KZ, so at least I'll only have to put up with the PUGs til loot drops (LC mace repgrind has been abandoned in favour of the Glad's honor grind now in order to save my sanity). One of my friends armorys everyone pre-PUG and while I've mocked him for it in the past, I'm really considering doing it myself now.

(Reply to this)


[info]scaary_kitty
2007-11-15 02:46 pm UTC (link)
To be honest, it's always been that way in my experience. :( Just because people farmed one instance to death to get to Revered didn't mean they had any better gear.

But yeah, it is a new factor to consider. My mage was Honoured with CE at 62. If her or someone like her hit 70, five minutes later could be in a heroic, not even getting used to the new 70 spells and such. It is encouraging freshly-dinged 70s, or even those in the late 60s, to try to join Heroics, and then whine if they get kicked from the group.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]phoenix_singing
2007-11-15 03:00 pm UTC (link)
Honored is ridiculously easy - all you have to do is normal gameplay with a few instance runs here and there. I was honored with HH after clearing the zone (this included instance quests). Same with CE and Lower City. By the time I hit 70 I was honored with everyone but KoT and the Sha'tar. Durnholde and the Kara key quest got me honored with KoT, and a couple of TK instances got me my Sha'tar rep. So I'm on my first 70, with very little experiences in the Outland instances and all my heroic keys - I fully expect my first run or two of each heroic to be like OMG SUCK. >.>

On the other hand, I'll probably be running mostly with guildies, and I've been raiding Kara and Gruul's Lair, so I do have at least some gear to balance out my lack of experience. I also know how to use my 70 skills (for the most part :P). But to go in with all blues and greens and unfamiliar spells and a pug? Scary thought. :(

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]betsy_bobbin
2007-11-15 02:52 pm UTC (link)
I've been very against the idea of honored for heroic keys for some time. Knowing my luck with regular PUGs, at least with heroic PUGs, people had a bit of a clue prior to this patch. My rogue is honored with CE and HH. She's level 62. I'm ready for heroics, right?

(Reply to this)


[info]tridus
2007-11-15 02:52 pm UTC (link)
Heroic PUGs were often terrible before. Now you just have more people trying to do them due to the daily quest.

Really with badges in ZA and Karazhan, I find heroics pretty much pointless now.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]methedras
2007-11-15 04:07 pm UTC (link)
Still handy for those poor bastards like me who haven't been able to get their foot in the door to Kara yet... though this should soon change.

(Reply to this) (Parent)
(no subject) - [info]earth_soul, 2007-11-15 07:56 pm UTC

[info]insaint
2007-11-15 02:53 pm UTC (link)
At the same time, you can't expect people who've never done heroics before to be awesome at them right off the bat. I suspect there will be an adjustment period. Some people will realize that they need better gear/practice. Some will just think they are entitled to free crap and will get kicked from groups. (Or they'll whine to Blizzard and get heroics nerfed. Heh.)

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]atomic645
2007-11-15 03:58 pm UTC (link)
yeah, agreed.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]tokudama
2007-11-15 03:19 pm UTC (link)
I had the same discussion with a guildie sometime in the last couple weeks before the patch. He was saying that PUGs for heroics were going to be worse, and I wasn't necessarily disagreeing with him, my point was just: don't group with people with gear that can't stand up to the difficulty of a heroic. Yeah, it's kind of a pain to alt-tab and look up an armory profile, but if it saves you time and money it would be well worth it IMO.

And I remember situations like this from keying up for Kara months and months ago. Someone hits 70, manages to get keyed (with 20 failed BM attempts in there) and thinks they're ready for Kara just because they have the key.

(Reply to this)


[info]amurderofcrows
2007-11-15 03:31 pm UTC (link)
So, okay.

I dinged 70 oni my Hunter three weeks ago. I've been running Shattered Halls and Sethekk Halls and Black Morass, going to run Shadow Labs...blah blah blah, working on TK and Kara despite that my guild will never run the latter-- point is I'm TRYING To gear, but guess what? On my server, the non-Heroic end of things is dead, so getting geared is going to be slow going if not impossible at all. On the other hand, I HAVE swapped out several pieces of greens for blues, and I'm not a Huntard.

But attitudes like this are going to ensure that I never see the inside of a Heroic.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]lane
2007-11-15 04:10 pm UTC (link)
You have a little more leeway as a DPS class, but when your tanks and healers are trying to do heroics in blues and greens it gets very ugly, very quickly. I'm not saying it can't be done, but your odds of ending up with instance runs like I described increase substantially.

Honestly, unless you loathe PvP with every fiber of your being I'd just queue for a couple AVs a day and start getting an epic or two a week. It is really that easy.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
(no subject) - [info]earth_soul, 2007-11-15 08:00 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]amurderofcrows, 2007-11-16 01:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lane, 2007-11-16 04:11 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]amurderofcrows, 2007-11-16 04:19 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]bryneshrimp, 2007-11-16 09:07 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]leopardeternal, 2007-11-15 04:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lane, 2007-11-15 04:49 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]leopardeternal, 2007-11-15 05:30 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lane, 2007-11-15 05:41 pm UTC

[info]spartonian
2007-11-15 03:33 pm UTC (link)
I wouldn't set foot near Zul'Aman without at the minimum Karazhan and SSC/The Eye/Season 1(weapons) loot. Given the item level of drops in there(and reading up on the boss fights), it would simply be too difficult with any green gear.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]anycah
2007-11-15 07:26 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, people on my server were pugging for, expecting it to be another Karazhan... and it isn't. The loot's equivalent to SSC more or less, and so's the difficulty.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]partywhipple
2007-11-15 03:39 pm UTC (link)
I went into BM last night with my Palitank. The server froze up for about a minute and when it unlocked all my gear was yellow. I had definitely repaired before the run so it was really annoying. about 7 bosses in my weapon broke. i tanked the rest with a Balcksmith Hammer. it was pretty sweet. I have not tried a heroic yet with her. She has 490+ defense, 11k health and 60% damage mit but I still feel uncomfortable going into heroics and trying to keep others from dying. It seems rather rude to me that people waste not only their own time but others because they are too impatient to properly gear their toon.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]lane
2007-11-16 04:12 am UTC (link)
How's tanking been for you so far? I'm a little nervous because the past two times we've grouped with a paladin tank it's been horrible. I don't want to suck with mine. ;_;

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
(no subject) - [info]partywhipple, 2007-11-16 12:02 pm UTC

[info]neo_foxx000
2007-11-15 03:43 pm UTC (link)

I restrict all my heroics to guild runs. That way, if we wipe, we actually make fun of ourselves instead of yelling at each other. XD

For instance, a few days ago the daily heroic was Hellfire Ramparts. Truth be told, I've never even done regular Ramparts since all I did from Lv60 to Lv70 was quests, quests, and more quests.

Sometimes, if/when we wipe and I'm the last man standing, I pop Evasion for cheap laughs.

(Reply to this)


[info]theantipoet
2007-11-15 03:47 pm UTC (link)
I haven't run any heroic PUGs

but in defense of the lowered requirements, I will say that I ran a flawless heroic blood furnace yesterday with an all-alt all-guild run. most of our alts would not have had the heroic key if it required revered.

(Reply to this)


[info]leroy_brown242
2007-11-15 03:56 pm UTC (link)
Heroic Ramparts made me respec. (I'm revered, been keyed a whole just didn't have guildies to go with until Tuesday.)

I was prot, now I'm holy. (Paladin)

I'm better geared holy, but with our group of friends I fell into a tanking role. I was comfortable with that. But 4 wipes in two pulls in, I told them enough was enough and I went to respec.

I might have been fine with a group that was better geared. But I had all the pre-heroic gear I could muster and still got curb stomped in a heroic.

(Reply to this)


[info]lettres_mortes
2007-11-15 03:58 pm UTC (link)
"although I still don't believe running the same dungeon dozens of times is going to make you skilled/geared for other heroics. Regardless!

The past two days my boyfriend's been trying to take advantage of the heroic daily quests. Unfortunately, this has resulted in groups comprised of players in no epics, mediocre blues, and some greens.

Contradict yourself much?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]lane
2007-11-15 04:21 pm UTC (link)
Not really. Running Shattered Halls for the dozenth time didn't produce any gear I could use any more than the first time I ran it. I could say the same about basically every other instance except Shadow Labyrinth and even then I had almost every piece I could use within my 3rd run or so.

I'm not advocating not running instances, but I am against having to run the same instances ad nauseum long past having obtained anything even remotely useable. Most everyone I know ran those instances so many times they ended up with off-spec sets. Hell, the last time I did SL a warrior rolled and won the Greatsword of Horrid Dreams because literally everyone else in the party already had it. I think I have a screenshot somewhere of us all standing together with the same sword. :P

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
(no subject) - [info]lettres_mortes, 2007-11-15 04:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]noabsolutes, 2007-11-15 08:30 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lettres_mortes, 2007-11-15 08:44 pm UTC

[info]methedras
2007-11-15 04:04 pm UTC (link)
Friends dont let friends PUG heroics. Hell, it's bad enough PUGging normal instances.

Plus, it always boggles my mind when people don't have their crafted epics. First thing I did at 70 was crack out the Frozen Shadoweave Set.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]lane
2007-11-15 04:24 pm UTC (link)
Alas, all of our friends are PvP junkies and completely disinterested in PvE of any kind.

I don't have the Frozen Shadoweave set (as a warlock) because I really dislike trade skills, but I'm in almost all epics from PvP, so eh. I pass. :P

(Reply to this) (Parent)
(no subject) - [info]amib, 2007-11-16 02:55 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]methedras, 2007-11-16 09:28 am UTC

[info]dmaster
2007-11-15 06:00 pm UTC (link)
Heroics are really based on two things: The gear and spec of the tank, and the quality of the healing. The other three spots don't necessarily have to be well geared, it just makes it better the more geared (especially stam) they happen to be.

If you have a tank with greens of any kind, it's not going to work unless they happen to have wasted money enchanting those greens and are also prot spec. You can get away with a lesser geared tank if they're prot than if they're arms. If they're fury, stay far far away. In fact, i'd steer away from non-prot Warrior tanks in general in favor of Druids and Paladins since they're much better at handling multiple mobs. Warriors are at a slight disadvantage, since most good warrior tanks aren't going to waste time with a heroic PUG to say the least. (and the ones that will, in my experience have no idea how to stance dance, usually don't have anywhere near the cap on defense and generally are crappy tanks.)

Assuming you can find a worthwhile tank, they're not really that bad.

I think that the lowered requirements are actually a good thing. it'll make people realize that their gear and spec is an important decision to keep in mind, and it'll increase the overall pool of people available to do them. They're not that hard, but you can't half-ass it like you can the 5-man normals and get away with it. They're harder (most of them at least) than a lot of raid encounters, since you're only packing 5 people and the trash is just as hard as a raid, and harder in some spots.

My stupid rule, is 2 wipes on trash before the first boss unless it's just a really badly timed mistake, and that's it. Usually you can tell when the tank doesn't have it or your healers can't heal through the damage and you need to quit or find a replacement.

Be honest with people. Let them know it's their gear, their spec or their attitude for heroics that they can't handle and they'll get the picture soon enough. The difference in honored -> revered isn't really that significant, since some people like running some instances more than others. I hate the Hellfire stuff, but now I can run them. I'm in great gear, but I just didn't ever really want to run Shattered halls 10 times to get the rep to do heroic Ramparts.

PUGs aren't terrible, but most people's attitudes going into them suck and that's ultimately what defeats most people.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]pyrokinesis
2007-11-15 08:26 pm UTC (link)
The warriors that will can't stance dance. No one on my server takes tactical mastery anymore.

(Reply to this) (Parent)
(no subject) - [info]basiecrazy, 2007-11-15 09:29 pm UTC

[info]teniblue
2007-11-15 06:02 pm UTC (link)
While we were running Kara last night, one of our other guildies who didn't go in decided to do the heroic daily quest in Slave Pens last night. Apparently it was pretty rough going, and the group wound up disbanding before he got to the last boss. Since we were finishing up in Kara, four of us decided to go help him. Everything went totally smoothly and we got the last boss down with no problems.

350 rep for both Consortium and Cenarion Expedition -- not to mention TWO badges of justice and 24 gold. Sweet!

But yeah... if you go with a regular group and you have adequate cc (in our case, a rogue, a mage, and a feral druid to OT), it makes life so much easier.

I think the tank went in originally with a PuG, though I'm not 100% sure.

We do have a healing pally who just got Kara-keyed over the weekend and is now learning to heal 5-mans and gearing up, and he's been all over us trying to do the heroics, and I'm like, "Uh dude, you JUST got your driver's license. You aren't ready to drive the freeways of L.A."

(Reply to this)


[info]vulps
2007-11-15 06:37 pm UTC (link)
I finally got fed up with raiding about a month after TBC came out, rerolled Horde in a guild with some good friends, and started all over again. We're a small guild of PvP junkies and pretty casual for the most part, so every heroic I've ever run is at least partially, if not all, pickup.

That being said, I've never experienced any of the horror stories people complain about in heroics. My worst PUGs have always been non-heroics, with people having awful specs, inappropriate gear for their role, and the like. I think by the time people have their heroic keys they have a pretty good idea of what they're doing and have gathered up the best gear they could have at that point.

I haven't run a heroic since the the requirement was lowered yesterday, but really I'm only worried about people being undergeared rather than inexperienced. We'll see. :)

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]earth_soul
2007-11-16 01:17 am UTC (link)
what you said reminded me of the attitude some people have, so it isn't really directed at you, but...

i keep seeing people mention the undergeared thing. they're afraid all these poorly geared scrubs are going to come out of the woodwork and devour their souls, or something. but nobody stops to think, hey, remember when you were undergeared? how much of a struggle it was to tank or heal? or not being able to keep up with the other damage dealers? it isn't fun. at all. you all know this. there will be like warlocks in netherweave armor wanting to join your run, but i don't think i'm going out on a limb when i say that there are just as many people who want to be able to preform adequately in heroics without suffering or causing others to suffer.

also, don't remember who said this, but to the person who said being undergeared is a tank and healer problem alone -- you're wrong. burn fights? the faster something is dead, the less everyone has to do. you have a poorly geared damage dealer and they are just as much of a liability as a poorly geared tank or healer.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
(no subject) - [info]lane, 2007-11-16 04:05 am UTC

[info]riotlounge
2007-11-15 06:38 pm UTC (link)
I don't PUG. Ever.

Especially heroics. I either go with my guild, guild alliancemates, or trusted friends who are in other raiding guilds.

(Reply to this)


[info]phobia47
2007-11-15 08:20 pm UTC (link)
"I still don't believe running the same dungeon dozens of times is going to make you skilled"

no, but it will familiarize you with the dungeon which will make life much easier.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]lane
2007-11-16 03:51 am UTC (link)
That particular dungeon, yes, but let me tell you how quick I quit doing Shadow Labyrinth after I hit revered. I did heroic Mana Tombs last night and I'd never even been in the instance before, even on normal. I have yet to run a heroic Shattered Halls/Shadow Labyrinth, etc. I did enough of those instances just trying to get the rep to do the others.

What they should have done was not limited rep to one instance (past honored), that way people could have mixed it up a little and learned the others just as well.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]lexperiment
2007-11-15 11:14 pm UTC (link)
I routinely check up on people I'm grouping with on the armory. That way I can at least steer clear of the toons in full greens....?

(Reply to this)


[info]ahmes
2007-11-15 11:28 pm UTC (link)
People also don't seem to realise that the heroics have different difficulties.. a group that can just barely clear heroic Slave Pens is probably incapable of handling Underbog.

And what you lack in gear you can partially make up for with consumables and enchants.

(Reply to this)


[info]manicdee
2007-11-16 05:36 am UTC (link)
My Kara team went into Zul'Aman and we managed to beat the Bear boss after a few dodgey attempts. My warrior still has the Vindicator's Breastplate, but T4 shoulders and Gloves and Tankatronic Goggles.

We had a lot of fun, and ZA will give us something different to do between Kara farming, Gruul's & TK raids and SSC wipes - even if we only do as much as we can fit into one three hour session (which at this point is the bear boss and some trash).

(Reply to this)

Create an Account
Forgot your login or password?
Login w/ OpenID
English • Español • Deutsch • Русский…