kayholder ([info]kayholder) wrote in [info]worldofwarcraft,
@ 2007-07-15 14:12:00
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Parents and Warcraft
Nothing was said to me in this community, but I wanted to rant somewhere.

Every time I see a story about a parent who plays WoW, who then neglected their child, it makes my community filter flare up with "You people shouldn't play games like that if you have a child!" in various parenting communities. I'm so sick of it.
This is the latest story that has my friends list in a tizzy.

Nev. Couple Blame Internet for Neglect
By Associated Press

3 hours ago

RENO, Nev. - A couple who authorities say were so obsessed with the Internet and video games that they left their babies starving and suffering other health problems have pleaded guilty to child neglect.

The children of Michael and Iana Straw, a boy age 22 months and a girl age 11 months, were severely malnourished and near death last month when doctors saw them after social workers took them to a hospital, authorities said. Both children are doing well and gaining weight in foster care, prosecutor Kelli Ann Viloria told the Reno Gazette-Journal.

Michael Straw, 25, and Iana Straw, 23, pleaded guilty Friday to two counts each of child neglect. Each faces a maximum 12-year prison sentence.

Viloria said the Reno couple were too distracted by online video games, mainly the fantasy role-playing "Dungeons & Dragons" series, to give their children proper care.

"They had food; they just chose not to give it to their kids because they were too busy playing video games," Viloria told the Reno Gazette-Journal.

Police said hospital staff had to shave the head of the girl because her hair was matted with cat urine. The 10-pound girl also had a mouth infection, dry skin and severe dehydration.

Her brother had to be treated for starvation and a genital infection. His lack of muscle development caused him difficulty in walking, investigators said.

The Straws have been given public defenders. Jeremy Bosler, head of the county public defender's office, declined to comment to The Associated Press on Saturday.

Michael Straw is an unemployed cashier, and his wife worked for a temporary staffing agency doing warehouse work, according to court records. He received a $50,000 inheritance that he spent on computer equipment and a large plasma television, authorities said.

While child abuse because of drug addiction is common, abuse rooted in video game addiction is rare, Viloria said.

Last month, experts at an American Medical Association meeting backed away from a proposal to designate video game addiction as a mental disorder, saying it had to be studied further. Some said the issue is like alcoholism, while others said there was no concrete evidence it's a psychological disease.

Patrick Killen, spokesman for Nevada Child Abuse Prevention, said video game addiction's correlation to child abuse is "a new spin on an old problem."

"As we become more technologically advanced, there's more distractions," Killen said. "It's easy for someone to get addicted to something and neglect their children. Whether it's video games or meth, it's a serious issue, and (we) need to become more aware of it."

I fail to understand how something other people do makes ME a bad parent.

I play Wow. its no secret. But I spend time outside with my child every day. I play with my child every day. My son is fed 3 meals a day, and 2 snacks. My child is bathed, healthy and happy. My son was breastfed. My son co-sleeps with us. I carried my son around in a sling, my son has never cried himself to sleep.  (I'm not saying those things make you a bad parent, I'm just an AP parent) My son will happily play by himself for long stretches at a time, and any time he comes to me or his father for attention, its there.

If I spend a few hours on and off throughout the day playing and I can fully take care of my child, why cant others?

Sure, I didn't hit level 70 in a month like most people. it took me a year or so. Sure, my game might be up most of the day, but 75% of the time I'm afk from it, and when i come back Ive been logged off for inactivity. I don't raid because I HAVE A SMALL CHILD. its not fair to him. There is a fair compromise.

Why is that I have to be told I shouldn't play WoW if I have children because someone else has a problem? I'm so fucking sick of it.

Do any of you other parents catch shit for playing?

Edited for spelling and punctuation.



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[info]nickelkeep
2007-07-15 06:22 pm UTC (link)
I'm not a parent yet, but a friend of mine is. He and his wife are avid gamers and they have an adorable little girl. When FFXI came out, they both got into it very quickly. But they never let it interfere with their daughter.

They both caught shit one time when their daughter had a small fever (and by small I mean 99.1 degrees). His mother came over while they were playing the game. They had laid their daughter down for a nap, and my friend's mother checked on the girl to see her. She had a fit! She even tried to call protect services on them for "neglecting their child." They had laid her down for a nap because they knew she was sick. They even had a doctor prescribed antibiotic for their daughter.

Child Services laughed in his mother's face.

Sorry if the the story is tl;dr, but I know that gaming-savvy parents are always going to catch crap like this, and I don't think it's very fair.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]mckenzie3nick
2007-07-15 07:56 pm UTC (link)
'tl;dr'... i'm not familiar with this one. what's it mean?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]prufrockssong, 2007-07-15 07:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]megarandom, 2007-07-16 08:41 am UTC

[info]doricom
2007-07-15 06:24 pm UTC (link)
I don't really catch a lot of hype for playing. But, I set my own rules for playing the game. There are a lot of people out there who can't (or won't) do that. I try hard not to judge others, though. It seems that case is an extreme example (and here I feel bad if I play more than thirty minutes while my daughter is awake! *laugh*). Sometimes, I have to remind myself that this is just a game, and that my daughter and family take priority. :)

(Reply to this)


[info]atomic645
2007-07-15 06:26 pm UTC (link)
Pretty much all my guildmates have children, which is perfectly fine, since we're not a hardcore raiding guild. Personally, I don't see how anyone could have a job, let alone children, and be in a hugely competitive raiding guild.

Anyway, in my guild, when we do raid, we only raid on weekends or after 8pm. Once in a while, you'll hear "ok, the kids are at the movies with friends, anyone wanna run Shadow Labs?" but also hear "Crap, my daughter just threw up. I gotta go guys", and we're all pretty accepting of it.

It's all good stuff, and I know a few of them actually play wow with their children, or join in on vent occasionally.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]teh_bombshell
2007-07-15 06:44 pm UTC (link)
Anyway, in my guild, when we do raid, we only raid on weekends or after 8pm. Once in a while, you'll hear "ok, the kids are at the movies with friends, anyone wanna run Shadow Labs?" but also hear "Crap, my daughter just threw up. I gotta go guys", and we're all pretty accepting of it.

That happened to me the other night. We were running SSC (my kids were in bed) and my daughter started crying and throwing a fit. I told my guild I had to run and take care of my kiddo, so I logged. When I logged in the next day, they all wanted to make sure my little one was ok and told me not to worry about bailing. They're really good about being understanding.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]atomic645, 2007-07-15 06:46 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]teh_bombshell, 2007-07-15 07:06 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]atomic645, 2007-07-15 07:08 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]teh_bombshell, 2007-07-15 07:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]atomic645, 2007-07-15 07:41 pm UTC

[info]xzarakizraiia
2007-07-15 06:36 pm UTC (link)
Unfortunately, some people who don't know very much about video games read stories like that- that compare gaming addiction to drug addiction and alcohol addiction- don't realize how rare actual gaming addiction is. I mean, the quote says it all "It's easy for someone to get addicted to something and neglect their children. Whether it's video games or meth..."

I haven't done any research in this field, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that there are a lot more addiction-free WoW players than addiction-free meth users. The people in parenting communities say, "You shouldn't even be playing these games if you have a child!" because they think the potential for addiction is as high as a drug, and that every person who picks up the game will turn into a hardcore raider with no hope of recovery.

A lot of people have considered me addicted over the years because of the number of hours that I play. I raid from 6 to 11 most days, with only Friday and Saturday nights off. I'm about to start raiding in 30 mins or so and probably not stop till 11 or later if our Kael attempts are going well. But I have absolute control over this- I signed up for this knowing that it'd be an intense schedule, and I can opt out at any time. I wouldn't be raiding like this if I had a child, because I know it takes up way too much of my time. But if I did have a child I wouldn't quit altogether, because it's entirely possible to play the game casually.

Most people don't get upset at parents who watch a movie or read a book while their children are napping, but video games, especially MMOs, have been demonized as these super-addictive forces that will cause you to abandon everything else in life.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]atomic645
2007-07-15 06:53 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, neglectful parents are neglectful parents. It's all about priorities. If you think it's a better idea to drink, raid, knit, build giant robots, instead of looking after your children, obviously something is wrong with them.

If anything comes close in priority to your children, girlfriend, boyfriend, family, then that's sort of a red flag.

I would not compare WoW to crack cocaine, whereas even touching it automatically makes gives it priority over everything else in your life.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]amarafox, 2007-07-15 08:22 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]buckaction, 2007-07-15 09:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]olanthe, 2007-07-16 12:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ghostlight, 2007-07-16 05:38 am UTC

[info]teh_bombshell
2007-07-15 06:41 pm UTC (link)
I'm a parent, but I don't catch crap about playing.

I DO raid, but our raids don't start until AFTER my kids are in bed (raids start at 10pm my time - my kids are in bed no later than 8:30 through the week) and I get up in the morning to take care of them. I rarely log on during the day simply because I have so much to do (errands, feeding/taking care of them, housework, etc), but I play at night and on weekends if I don't go out with my friends.

I prefer to spend my free time during the day playing with my babies - they are very fun kids! When one or both of them nap (their ages are 5 1/2 and 2 1/2), I take that time to clean up, watch something that isn't a cartoon, or take a nap myself.

I don't understand how others can't balance game-playing and child-raising/real life.

(Reply to this)


[info]lostinemotion
2007-07-15 06:42 pm UTC (link)
My kids are 12 and 13 so they're fairly independant and self sufficient, but still If theres something family oriented to be done it gets done. They make their own breakfasts and lunches, I cook dinner and clean house and still have tons of time for my many computer related hobbies. It CAN be done without neglect, or implied neglect, but thanks to people like this making headlines we're always going to catch crap for it.

(Reply to this)


[info]the__ivorytower
2007-07-15 06:45 pm UTC (link)
I've played with people who are very attentive to their children, and I recall one person who had a child, and that child (very young) loved watching him run around on his mount, so he would, and she would giggle and clap.

I babysit, I don't have children, but I never do anything while that child is awake that I could not immediately put down to tend to whatever that child needs. Children (particularly this one, he's three and very good at occupying himself) doesn't need to be constantly hovered over, but if he wants my attention, he gets it. Simple as that.

People like those in the article would have neglected a child, very likely, with any kind of distraction.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]veracosa
2007-07-16 12:26 am UTC (link)
a guy in my guild spent 30 gold on flying in and out of Undercity one night, because his kids loved it so much!

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]thremma
2007-07-15 07:08 pm UTC (link)
I don't have kids, but several people in my guild do. The guild is formed to be family friendly; the kids that are old enough and want to play with the parents; there are several times families make up most of an instance group. It is not at all unusual for certain players, if they are on in the afternoon, to say "GTG, toddlers up from nap" "afk - laundry's done". bo one minds; the guild's built in a way to accommodate that.

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[info]glenngunnerzero
2007-07-15 07:15 pm UTC (link)
It's a problem with the Media in general, Video Games and the Internet is a hot topic for them so they'll take what they can and throw it into a story because they know it'll sell.

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[info]rbos
2007-07-15 07:19 pm UTC (link)
In a case like that, if it weren't their unhealthy obsession with a game killing their kids, it would be something else. Idiocy takes many forms, and they're blaming the wrong thing.

(Reply to this)


[info]mamaskin
2007-07-15 07:33 pm UTC (link)
God I hope my mother in law doesnt see this story.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]kayholder
2007-07-15 07:35 pm UTC (link)
Or my mother.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]mamaskin, 2007-07-15 07:39 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]amarafox, 2007-07-15 08:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]buckaction, 2007-07-15 09:33 pm UTC

[info]theantipoet
2007-07-15 07:46 pm UTC (link)
child-hating gay male here (:P) but reading that story is pretty shocking... but at the same time, I find it hard to believe that video games were the only thing involved.

I can't even ignore my dog while playing WoW (much as I'd like to. lol. I had to buy a love seat to use as a computer "chair" because my 90 pound golden retriever kept trying to jump in my lap while I was on the computer)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]prufrockssong
2007-07-15 07:56 pm UTC (link)
Yeah I can't ignore my cat either. He comes in and stretches up, paws me on the shoulder, and leads me to his food dish. I can't ignore him cause he's just so darned cute.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]fishninja, 2007-07-15 08:55 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]prufrockssong, 2007-07-15 08:56 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]theantipoet, 2007-07-15 09:55 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kohai, 2007-07-15 11:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]shiftplusone, 2007-07-16 01:06 pm UTC

[info]prufrockssong
2007-07-15 07:54 pm UTC (link)
I don't care if parents play WoW.

But we had someone in guild one time who was the typical guild princess (which was odd, because she was married at the time and flirting with everyone)

One day she came around and said that he husband had kicked her/her daughter out, but she was still around and wanted to raid. She would raid with us nightly.

One time we were learning MC (it was frustrated, we were learning Domo back in the day when MC was the most challenging place out there) and we wiped. The mother in question left her mic on and we could hear her get up and start screaming at her kid, "YOU KNOW YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO LEAVE ME ALONE WHEN I AM ON THE COMPUTER, YOU KNOW YOU SHOULDN'T TOUCH MY STUFF" etc. I mean full scale screaming to the point where the raid leader muted her and told her to come back some other time.

From that day on I seriously hated her guts and I became wary of parents playing. I don't care if you play casually or hell, even raid a little, but raiding full time takes a lot of farming and time in front of the computer and I don't get how people can do it if they have jobs/kids. Some maybe can, but obviously others can't.

As for the article, I'm sure they'll come up with some BS mental illness defense. The problem is, like the person in it said, people can become addicted to ANYTHING, not just video games. I hope people remember that because all the people that say, "WOW STOLE MY BOYFRIEND I HATE WOW" instead of "I HATE MY BOYFRIEND FOR BEING ADDICTED TO WOW" piss me off.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]thethirdman4476
2007-07-15 08:14 pm UTC (link)
I don't care if you play casually or hell, even raid a little, but raiding full time takes a lot of farming and time in front of the computer and I don't get how people can do it if they have jobs/kids.

Damn, that makes me sad. WoW raiding: people with jobs or kids need not apply.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]prufrockssong, 2007-07-15 08:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]thethirdman4476, 2007-07-15 11:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]prufrockssong, 2007-07-16 12:06 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]thethirdman4476, 2007-07-16 12:49 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]amarafox, 2007-07-15 08:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]prufrockssong, 2007-07-15 08:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]amarafox, 2007-07-15 08:46 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]prufrockssong, 2007-07-15 08:55 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]atomic645, 2007-07-15 11:35 pm UTC

[info]stealingbabies
2007-07-15 07:58 pm UTC (link)
It's always amazing how stupid some people can be when it comes to taking care of children. And it's quite a bit frightening to realize I take much better care of my cat and fish than those people did with their children. Granted, my cats are spoiled rotten, but there's a whole lot more care that goes into children than cats.

But, yeah, in cases like that there's way more to it than just video games. Video games don't turn people into negligent idiots--they just give those negligent idiots something to do while they're ignoring the priorities in life.

(Reply to this)


[info]aurora1116
2007-07-15 07:59 pm UTC (link)
Mom of 2 here.

I play WoW. I have a full-time job. I play D&D on Friday's via Klooge with my friends.

My kids get fed, bathed and believe it or not, my oldest makes fairly good grades in school. My younger is going to be 3... she's pretty happy to run around the house and read books and play outside both while I'm on WoW, doing work at home or making dinner. These things don't make me Mom of the year, they just make me a normal Mom. Like all of us parents, it's no all fun :: giggles ::.

All that said, I am sick about these kids. I think if you took out D&D online and replaced with just about anything, these kids would still have been in a bad place. D&D, WoW or anything else was only a placeholder for the problem.

I hope these kids find a place to grow up adjusted and that these parents get the help they desperately need.

(Reply to this)


[info]rufushonkeriv
2007-07-15 08:22 pm UTC (link)
Father of three (one autistic), all well fed and happyish.

My policy is to never run an instance unless I can guaruntee a chunk of kid-free time for the party. This only leaves weekend nights for me, if I can.

I love instancing, but have accepted that I can't do it as much as I would like.

(Reply to this)


[info]tygre
2007-07-15 08:30 pm UTC (link)
Mom of 2 and married to another gamer here.

I have several friends I often run with who are also parents and are very understanding of the needs kids can have ("baby aggro" was mentioned once for a reason why we cut a SL run short after the second boss). Nearly all of my WoW friends, and I have many, are aware that I am a parent and that if my kids need me, I'll need to leave, and are okay with that.

I think some people have addictive personalities anyways and if it isn't video games, it could be almost anything else. It just sucks when this is combined with children. :(

I might add that I do raid several nights a week with a decently ranked raiding guild, and the leadership is fine with those of us who have lives outside the game (i.e., almost everyone is either a parent, works odd hours, or has other committments). No worries. Mag and Gruul and Nightbane will still be there next week, next month...

Farming's another matter. I can get on and mine or fish for an hour or so here and there during the day when the kids are home, but I really don't like running instances then. Daily quests are okay too as many of them are quickly done. That makes enough cash that I can raid and not go completely broke.

Just because I have kids doesn't mean I can't have a life. :P

(Reply to this)


[info]12_drakon
2007-07-15 08:40 pm UTC (link)
Breastfeeding = great abuse prevention. First of all, it's easier. You can breastfeed and do whatever it is you are doing. Even raid :-) You just need a sling. Well, I probably would try not to raid while feeding, because of adrenaline, but at least it only takes like two seconds to give your baby the breast and then keep doing what you do. Second, breastfeeding promotes bonding by releasing various "parenting" hormones and smell mechanisms and what not in the mother, so that the mother is more likely to pay more attention to the baby.

Once I got a two-hour lecture, in whispers, from a (slightly crazy, it seemed) teen guildie in-game who claimed parents, or adults for that matter, should not play computer games at all. I found it extremely amusing, while questing, so I kept up my side of the conversation. In general, however, I don't get much flak about lifestyle from anybody, because I refuse to take it. Co-sleeping, prolonged breastfeeding, homeschooling, or gaming now... meh, it's our life :-)

You may want to stress these parts of the article to your friends:
"While child abuse because of drug addiction is common, abuse rooted in video game addiction is rare, Viloria said.

Last month, experts at an American Medical Association meeting backed away from a proposal to designate video game addiction as a mental disorder, saying it had to be studied further. Some said the issue is like alcoholism, while others said there was no concrete evidence it's a psychological disease."

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]amarafox
2007-07-15 08:51 pm UTC (link)
Man, it's your life, live it how you want. While *I* may be a little iffy with some of your parenting choices, it's none of my goddamned business to tell you how to raise your kids. :) You sound like you're doing a fine jobm and I applaud you. I don't have or want children, but I have nothing but respect for good parents. You guys have a hard job and you're constantly being judged by others. Because of this stance, I'm friends with a lot of parents and their kids love me. The kids also know that they can't get away with murder around me, so we have a mutual respect thing happening.

So long as children learn how to become responsible members of society I don't care how they're raised, even if certain types of parenting strike me as weird! :D

My mom tells my aunt how to raise her son all the time, and while my aunt is making some mistakes and, admittedly, is a little kooky, my mom's constant nagging at my aunt is far more destructive.

Live how you want to live, parent how you want to parent, but not at the expense of your kidlets :)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]12_drakon, 2007-07-15 09:05 pm UTC

[info]the_pr0letariat
2007-07-15 08:44 pm UTC (link)
My dad plays WoW. He's a great dad. He's not addicted or anything, he goes to work every day (well he usually works out of home cause he owns his own business, but still, he does his job), goes out with friends, does stuff with the family, etc. Hell, me and him even play together! (admittedly we're beating the crap out of each other cause he's horde and I'm alliance, but still :-p)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]the_pr0letariat
2007-07-15 08:52 pm UTC (link)
Lol, forgot to say my dad does catch a lot of crap for playing, but basically, he plays and still functions as a great parent.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]twh, 2007-07-15 09:31 pm UTC

[info]swampers
2007-07-15 09:18 pm UTC (link)
Not a parent (seems I might be the only one... :D) but wanted to add a thought I had the other day:

Gaming (in the sense of computer gaming like WoW, and also with consoles like the Wii) is becoming the television of today.

Now, that's not to say that TV doesn't have its place in society these days: blatantly there are those who still space out in front of the 'idiot box' for hours at a time every day. I seem to recall reading somewhere that the average American watches 4 hours of TV a day. (Here for a reference to that.)

However, when an entertainment medium (television, movies, 'talkies'(!) - hell, even books!) grows in popularity and (a minority of) people begin doing it excessively, it seems the reporting media, governments, concerned members of the community et al jump up and declare it to be abhorrent, a social abomination - and something to be avoided at all costs. (Despite the majority of utilisers being quite fine with it...)

I've heard of many good things about TV in families - my own experience of TV during childhood was of viewing favourite shows with my entire family (there's a lot of us, too!) and family viewing is still fairly common today. More importantly, I think this same trend seems to have crossed over now to gaming. Perhaps more especially with those who grew up with computer and console gaming becoming parents themselves, and now starting to use these media as a way to spend time with their children. I think WoW is a perfect route for this too since, among other things, it teaches social, goal-oriented and cooperative skills and thinking.

Meh - what do I know anyway? I'm still just a kid (at 24...) with a WoW addiction...

(Reply to this)


[info]pointy111
2007-07-15 09:20 pm UTC (link)
I don't mind parents playing video games. I just think that they shouldn't have children if they're going to listen to that gol-darned Rock and Roll music.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]swampers
2007-07-15 09:29 pm UTC (link)
Hehehe... My point above, really, but put so much more eloquently!

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]twh
2007-07-15 09:33 pm UTC (link)
I hope to be a parent one day and still maintain my gaming hobby with my future spouse, so I find this quite helpful to keep in mind in the future when I eventually have to place more time on family, though I still hope to raid WoW and see the endgame.

I guess it's all about moderation and being smart about it.

(Reply to this)


[info]poultrygeist99
2007-07-15 09:48 pm UTC (link)
Wow. I'm a parent of young children who also plays WOW, but I've managed to miss that criticism entirely. I've never had any urge to read the parenting groups, thanks for that booster to my immunity.

(Reply to this)


[info]tephramancy
2007-07-15 11:03 pm UTC (link)
Honestly, no one's ever said anything to me. I have a 7 year-old, and I raid, but thanks to European time zones and where we are in relation to the GM, raids very rarely start before my son is in bed, and if they do, he'll often sit down and watch my ex and I playing, which he loves. :)

Incidentally, our GM and his wife (who is assistant GM) are expecting a baby soon, and they've been spending their last few weeks of child-free status training up new raid leaders so they can take as much time away as they need after the baby is born.

(Reply to this)


[info]imaginary_guilt
2007-07-15 11:15 pm UTC (link)

One of my friends is the guild leader of the biggest RP guild on Silver Hand, and he bounces his son on his knee when we raid Karazhan if he wakes up from his naps. :D

(Reply to this)


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