B Dazzld ([info]b_dazzld) wrote in [info]worldofwarcraft,
@ 2007-06-17 19:12:00
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Entry tags:karazhan, raiding

Minimum Stats for Shade and Beyond? (x-posted)
Looking for good stats from raiders that have downed Shade. =) (thanks for the help so far!)

We had decent starter stats to go by but now we have newer 70's coming in right as we've hit Shade, so we're a bit at a loss to figure what kind of stat checks we should put in place.

Example of our main Raiders:

http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Kargath&n=Anand (typical Holy Priest)


http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Kargath&n=Sahvii (Typical Warlock (minus my pet buffs etc) Know my +Hit is low =( but with my pet buffs my shadow damage/reg damage is over 1100 maybe 1200, and I am working on it lol.)

http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Kargath&n=Dorfl (only druid atm)

http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Kargath&n=Quirinus (prot warr)

http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Kargath&n=Abzuel (hybrid warr best tank, great dps)

New Raider:

http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Kargath&n=Rinnova (new Holy Priest need to know where he should be at)

Problem:

So, we have some really good gear and stats there, then like our new priest and some of our other new players...we need to find a middle ground that is acceptable for where we are in Kara.

http://wow.tachyonsix.com/armory/guildstats_out/kargath-no-remorse-70.html

Our general 70's stats sure some people were herbing/farming what not so may not be one hundred percent accurate.

Our prior barometer of stats below, I don't think they cut it any longer for where we are now, so I'm posting here to get a new idea of what our minimums should be =)

EDIT: These were the bare minimum for walking into Kara not the norm of what we have. We look at you, if you are below you don't even get to see the first boss.

------------ Druid ------------
* Balance
7,000 health
8,500 mana
550 +spell damage
6% +hit
15% +crit

* Feral (bear)
415 defense and Survival of the Fittest talent
20,000 armor
12,000 health
20% dodge
1,000 attack power
20% crit

* Feral (cat)
2,000 attack power
23% +crit
6,500 health

* Restoration
900 +healing
90 mp5 while casting
6,000 health
7,500 mana

------------ Hunter ------------
7,500 health
200 intellect
1,800 attack power (including Trueshot Aura if applicable)
5% +hit
18% +crit

------------ Mage ------------
6,000 health
8,500 mana
550 +damage
6% +hit
15% +crit

------------ Paladin ------------
* Tank
9,500 armor
450 defense
9,000 health

* Healing
6,500 health
900 +healing
80 mp5 while casting
8,000 mana

------------ Priest ------------
* Healing
1,250 +healing
100 mp5 while casting
5,000 health
7,500 mana

* Shadow
6,000 health
8,500 mana
550 +damage
6% +hit

------------ Rogue ------------
7,000 health
1,100 attack power
8% +hit
24% +crit
Pair of 71 DPS weapons

------------ Shaman ------------
* Elemental
7,500 health
8,500 mana
550 +damage
250 +crit rating

* Enhancement
7,500 health
7,000 mana
1,100 attack power
18% +crit

* Restoration
7,500 health
9,500 mana
1,100 +healing
90 mp5 while casting

------------ Warlock ------------
500 +damage
5% +hit
12% +crit
350 stamina
350 intellect

------------ Warrior -----------------
* Tank
490 defense
11,000 health
11,000 armor

* DPS
11,000 health
11,000 armor
1 attack power
1% +crit

----------Suggested Changes-----------
Fury warrior unbuffed in battle

9k health
1300 AP
10% hit
23% crit

Arms warrior unbuffed in battle
9k health
1400 AP
27% crit
3% hit

------------ Warlock ------------
500+damage (600)
5% +hit
12% +crit
350 stamina (over 8k health)
350 intellect


(Post a new comment)


[info]tsunemori
2007-06-18 02:42 am UTC (link)
Wowwww, seems like your players have very low health. Everyone should get above 8k, Aran's Pyro after sheep hits for 7k-ish, and you gotta add up an Arcane Missile or Frost Bolt from the spawns on top of that. Tanks are useless in this fight too, so tell them to put on their DPS gears, or sit out and swap with a DPS class.

In fact your whole playerbase seems to be massively undergeared. I'm a Paladin and I have 868 spell damage unbuffed. Your casters have between 500-600, and that's relatively small. An average Mage should have 700+ spell damage, push them above 1000 if you can.

Also, I had 1200 healing *before* Karazhan, your healers just seem like they're too lazy to work on their gears.

By the way, a Warrior with less than 5% hit is just embarassing. Have fun missing those Mortal Strikes.

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[info]b_dazzld
2007-06-18 03:11 am UTC (link)
Uhm we don't more than one warr that uses Mortal Strike if you'd observed the dps warr link I posted you'd have seen that. TO the other, they know their hit is low and they're working on it.

We have around 16 people who raid atm...most of our playerbase is alts outside of this...considering most of us are wearing some of the best pre-kara/during kara gear available...I don't consider the majority of us undergeared. Some are for certain, but they are also new raiders new 70's etc, which is why I'm here, want to know what we should be saying their min to join us at this point should be.

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[info]tsunemori
2007-06-18 03:14 am UTC (link)
Sorry but that was a bit hard to read.

They're not wearing the best pre-Kara gears when they have 500 SP, 6k health, and <1000 healing.

I suggest attempting Heroics. Get some badgers and get those awesome trinkets, maybe necklace/cape, perhaps bits of PvP for the bracers/belt/boots and Arena for one or two gears.

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[info]b_dazzld
2007-06-18 03:19 am UTC (link)
Those were base bare absolute min for entering Kara with us not representative of what we have.

http://wow.tachyonsix.com/armory/guildstats_out/kargath-no-remorse-70.html are the basics of our 70 group, not all are raiders some are new 70's.

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[info]tsunemori
2007-06-18 03:23 am UTC (link)
Ah. That made sense.

Then I suggest pushing the minimum way up, now that you're up to Aran and stuff. 700 SP, 1200 healing, 7-8k health, etc.

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[info]b_dazzld
2007-06-18 03:25 am UTC (link)
That is the whole reason why I posted, to find out what those min's should be as our core people have gone out of their way to make sure their gear is as good as it gets but we know not everyone will be at the same point =)

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[info]lucasrahls
2007-06-18 12:07 pm UTC (link)
Personally, I only have 6k HP with my kara gear, 7k buffed, but I was far lower than that (barely 6k buffed, I think 5800) when my guild was first downing aran.

Tips for not getting dmg'ed as much. Stay way ahead of his blizzard, actually try to run around so you are following it.

Healer tips (cause I'm a priest)
-Keep an eye out for people who get frozen during blizzard, dispel them asap
-Self-dispel slow before AoE, toss out a few dispels to the people near you while you run to the bookshelves. If everyone is hugging the wall, literally as far out as you can go, you will not get hit by his AoE.


DO NOT MOVE WHEN FLAME WREATH IS CAST!!

It's not a vary tankable fight, so get some solid healers, and good DPS and do your best to keep everyone up. Flasks of Resoration (2hrs/persists through death/35mp5) and mana pots can help with your mana pool if your healers start to struggle.

Checking out who you posted, your gear is as good as what my guild had when we were first started downing him. Make sure everyone pays attention, and you should be fine.

Goodluck!

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[info]b_dazzld
2007-06-18 06:07 pm UTC (link)
Thanks! We managed to down him with a couple of newer raidrs last night, had some trouble at first but then one of our Prot warriors had to go, and we swapped in a lock for him, so with two locks (our issue was the elementals the one time we tried him) it was gravy! ^.^ Sad I missed it tho, bad night to pick RL over WoW =oP

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[info]winterfox
2007-06-18 03:38 am UTC (link)
------------ Warlock ------------
500+damage (600)
5% +hit
12% +crit
350 stamina (over 8k health)
350 intellect

Should have at least 700+ damage unbuffed. Not hard to achieve with just quest/five-man blues. The 12% crit is pretty silly, too: what if the warlock is affliction? Trying to achieve even that little spell crit is a bit retarded if you don't have ruin.

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[info]b_dazzld
2007-06-18 03:51 am UTC (link)
It's a bench mark and balanced by other things =)

What stats would you suggest in totality?

Our only lock with Ruin already has 17% crit, I don't have Ruin and run with 18% crit and our Aff lock has 10% crit and about ~1050 shadow damage. Myself and our other lock are working on our hit but we have 1100-1200 plus shadow damage.

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[info]winterfox
2007-06-18 03:55 am UTC (link)
I'd have different sets of requirements entirely for different specs for locks. Hell, for other classes, too, but I don't know enough about them to suggest anything. Affliction locks should just go for raw damage and spell hit and leave spell crit well enough alone -- you could argue that some would be nice to keep up shadow vulnerability, but meh, not worth it especially if you have other locks with fairly high spell crit in the raid.

You're a demo lock. You get that extra 5% from demonic tactics, so. I assume that the listed damage is after fel armor and/or demonology buffs.

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[info]b_dazzld
2007-06-18 04:00 am UTC (link)
Yep, w/o 900+shadow damage and no pet out on my armoury atm. What would you feel some minimum numbers should be? I can't go w/o some defined numbers as then it becomes subjective which is unfair.

8k plus health?
700+ reg damage, 900+shadow or fire?
5%hit
15%crit give or take based on spec?

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[info]winterfox
2007-06-18 04:01 am UTC (link)
That sounds reasonable enough to me.

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[info]b_dazzld
2007-06-18 04:07 am UTC (link)
thanks!

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[info]ghostlight
2007-06-18 08:37 am UTC (link)
You'd have to adjust the +damage based on spec - otherwise you'll just end up with a bunch of half-assing it Demonologists: especially when you're holding Ruin locks up to the same standards as everyone else and then asking them to get another stat in addition to that.

Ruin locks will be able to accumulate less +spell because they need a baseline crit%. Affliction locks, on the other hand, can concentrate solely on +spell. While Demonologists will always have more due to improved Fel Armour and Demonic Knowledge.

I would guess a leeway either side of ~130 (down for Ruin, up for Demon) should compensate for it.



(I would also raise minimum health to 9K - come on, these guys are 70s)

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[info]b_dazzld
2007-06-18 06:04 pm UTC (link)
especially when you're holding Ruin locks up to the same standards as everyone else and then asking them to get another stat in addition to that.

Our one ruin lock hasn't been instructed to do anything lol he picks his own stats and is demo/ruin...he's doing more than fine.

But what additional stat are you talking about? Also...what is better about a ruin lock that makes them not need to be held to a standard? I was demo/ruin and didn't see a sig. increase in my damage out-put compared to what I am doing now.

Thanks for the information!

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[info]ghostlight
2007-06-18 08:27 pm UTC (link)
You have 600 +damage there as a requirement, and under direction from Winterfox have added crit% as a requirement based on spec.

Because crit% means item budget, any spec that needs to hit that requirement is going to necessarily be lower on their spell damage - it won't, however, seriously affect their damage thanks to things like Ruin, Shadow and Flame etc.
On the other hand, Demonologists can easily hit that amount without being able to do serious damage, thanks to Felguard shutting off their access to damage talents like Shadow Mastery or Ruin.


As an example, I went Demonologist/Felguard for a week to clean up some 2/3 person group quests I had. It buffed my spell damage up to ~800 but,ignoring the Felguard's own damage, dropped my personal damage by a third. After speccing back to SM/Ruin, my spell damage dropped to just under 600 - yet I have more dps than the Felguard and me combined.

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[info]b_dazzld
2007-06-18 09:02 pm UTC (link)
Raiding as a Demo lock, you use your Succubus not the Felguard as she adds more to your dps and increases your spell damage. For boss fights depending on pets survivability, you sacc the pet for man/health/damage bonus or you keep it out of harms way or on the boss if an AoE ability isn't an issue.

Felguard is only viable in 5-mans (only kinda he saves clothies mostly for me and works as a my damage soaker) soloing and PVP.

Outside of stats it's all how you play as well. I do fine as a Destro or Demo lock, but can't sustain good damage as Aff. outside of boss fights, so I did not feel as if I was living up to my end in raiding and respecc'd back to Demo, and easily rock top 3 less I have to slow it down for an uncertain/untalented tank.

Crit can go higher or lower, but if you don't specc Imp Sbolt, it's worth even less so definitely taken into account stats/spec. Thanks for the clarification.

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[info]ghostlight
2007-06-19 03:22 am UTC (link)
Raiding as a Demo lock, you use your Succubus not the Felguard as she adds more to your dps and increases your spell damage.

Either way, if you have talented to Felguard you don't have Ruin, Shadow Mastery, or Shadow and Flame - all of which give much better returns than Demonic Knowledge.

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[info]b_dazzld
2007-06-19 02:45 pm UTC (link)
So I hear =) But I like my Felguard, and my guild doesn't force specs so I'm lucky and I get to keep it and be able to raid. I did drop Felguard and got ruin...I didn't notice a difference. Thanks again tho!

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[info]erekose
2007-06-18 03:45 am UTC (link)
Speaking as to the Enhancement Shaman (as I am one), your minimum health is a tad low, I'd look for a minimum of 8k at least, before buffs.

What's their +hit? 100 should be the minimum, with over 150 much better, and close to 200 ideal.

At 30% crit, the Enh-Shaman will practically chain flurry, so shoot for around 25% self-buffed (GoA, stat food/agi elixir) and the raid buffs should cover the rest.

Slow 1hand weapons are better then quick ones, as my Shaman class leader keeps harping at me. Over 2.0 weapon speed will see big returns on Windfury numbers.

Also, even with Blessing of Salvation, I'd have your Enh-Shaman stay away from any weapons/trinkets that proc Haste while raiding. I've found in my testing, purely empirical as it was, that the Haste proc from a Blackout Truncheon, plus Windfury, plus Flurry (which was not all that difficult to do) made my burst dps go through the roof, which yanked aggro and made me a dead Shaman.

Your numbers there for Mana and Attack power look good to me.

G'luck in Kara and have fun.

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[info]cheatachu
2007-06-18 03:23 pm UTC (link)
I use a slow MH and fast offhand (since a slow offhand that's decent is hard to come by). I have no issues with dps, and my overall dps will suffer since I have to throttle my dps down when my ktm numbers come close to the maintank. Spirit weapons is *still* broken.

as I said below, hp isn't an issue if you know what you're doing. at 7k or 8k, most bosses will 1 shot you regardless. most trash you can hold if you do a large wf crit till the tank/OT takes it back.

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[info]darthkurai
2007-06-18 05:00 am UTC (link)
------------ Hunter ------------
7,500 health
200 intellect
1,800 attack power (including Trueshot Aura if applicable)
5% +hit
18% +crit

Your hunter should have at least 2000RAP and 19% crit (Marks, I'm assuming). It's not hard to achieve, really by the time you're at Aran.

------------ Warlock ------------
500 +damage
5% +hit
12% +crit
350 stamina
350 intellect

My lock is just in 5-man blues and he has +800 damage (self-buffed), he's been 70 for only 3 weeks.

All in all, everyone should be at 8000+ health buffed, a warlock should be at 10000hp buffed.

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[info]bryneshrimp
2007-06-18 04:02 pm UTC (link)
BM hunters should be sitting at roughly the same stats, with maybe 1500 RAP and 20% +crit.

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[info]lizzab
2007-06-18 05:22 am UTC (link)
Rogue should be:
1400 AP+ (1500 pref)
150 hit rating minimum
20% crit

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[info]saintinhell
2007-06-18 02:14 pm UTC (link)
Not to mention at least 8k health, which is kind of a good target for any class in Karazhan. Make you stress to your rogue that stacking crit is not as good as stacking hit for PvE.

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[info]b_dazzld
2007-06-18 05:56 am UTC (link)
Thanks for the assistance so far!

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[info]cheatachu
2007-06-18 03:18 pm UTC (link)
* Enhancement
7,500 health
7,000 mana
1,100 attack power
18% +crit

As an enhancement shaman, and one that generally takes one of the top 3 in a full kara run, these stats are good, maybe looking a little too much though. Unfortunately, pre-kara/arena gear, getting 7500 hp/7k mana w/good offensive stats is difficult. I sit just under 7k hp with >7k mana and >1300 atk power with 21% crit. As long as I watch KTM (a must have if any shaman plans on raiding), and watch the aoe's, i'm fine. I've never seen arans sheep or pyro in all the times I've done him (which, admittedly hasn't been too much). As long as the raid does it's job, and moves when they need, hp won't be an issue for a shaman.

Also, if that shaman is DW'ing (which they should be for pve), Should add a +hit req in there too. Since we get a bit from talents (assuming they do the normal build).

As for the resto req.

* Restoration
7,500 health
9,500 mana
1,100 +healing
90 mp5 while casting

everything is fine, and easily reached, but the mp5 is MUCH too low for shaman, our main deterrant in casting is our regen, mp5 is key here of course. What's needed for raiding? not sure, but it should be a bit more than 90, I sit around 1200 healing and 230 mp5 in my healing gear (this is still in my enhancement build). So if they're resto, their healing will be pretty high, but the mp5 should be higher than listed.

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[info]mfirefly
2007-06-19 02:59 pm UTC (link)
Along the same lines as the Warlock comments before, shadow priests should have +700 shadow damage. Also, the 8,500 mana requirement for them is a bit high. If they have a good amount of damage gear, they will have a good amount of mana regen through VT and will not need that much mana. I would put the mana requirement more at 7,200 or so for them.

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[info]b_dazzld
2007-06-19 03:22 pm UTC (link)
Thanks!

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[info]eeepeeep
2007-06-20 06:38 am UTC (link)
Not true, 8k is higher then a good shadow priest will have, unbuffed at least.

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[info]mfirefly
2007-06-20 05:46 pm UTC (link)
Unbuffed? I'd be curious to know how much shadow damage/spell damage s/he would be sacrificing to get that.

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[info]eeepeeep
2007-06-20 07:20 pm UTC (link)
A fair amount would have to be lost to get 8k unbuffed. I have more then 8k unbuffed in my AR gear when I'm tanking hateful bolts during the curator fight, but I lost ALOT of spell damage.

Most shadow priest with good gear are going to have around 6500 or so unbuffed HP.

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[info]mfirefly
2007-06-21 12:11 am UTC (link)
I was talking about mana, not HP. And after reading your comments below we seem to be on the same page, here.

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[info]eeepeeep
2007-06-21 01:54 am UTC (link)
Oh, haha. Yeah, I think we're on the same page. XD

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[info]pinwiz
2007-06-19 10:03 pm UTC (link)
I dunno. As a Holy Priest, I think the setting are a bit strict. I know that I didn't have the mana regen when I entered Kara but had no problem downing the Huntsman.

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[info]b_dazzld
2007-06-19 10:44 pm UTC (link)
True enough, but we are also at Prince/Netherspite now too So I'm kinda glad we included that ^.^ We did lower and up the requirements for shadow priests actually--on some sage advice from the posts I made ^.^

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[info]pinwiz
2007-06-19 11:51 pm UTC (link)
If the goal is to take down the Prince asap, then the benchmark makes sense. My guild took me on when they split into two Kara runs so people would get geared up faster, so that might be an idea.

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[info]eeepeeep
2007-06-20 07:07 am UTC (link)
What did you change the req's for shadow priests to? Because in their full damage gear they should have close to 6% spellhit, around 6500 HP/mana and easily 900+ shadow damage. 550 is really, really, really low if you're going after prince. I mean hell, the rep weapon from lower city + enchant is ~200 +damage.

Generally speaking I would say you should be looking for shadow priests who have at the least the 2 most important tailored sets. (Spellstrike/Shadowweave) They should at least be working towards the offhand / trinket from badges. If they aren't getting their gear enchanted and looking for what items they want from kara, they probably aren't going to be that valuable.

(As a general guideline if they are looking for more then gloves from attumen, back from moroes, dagger from prince, bracer from animal bosses [the of shadow wrath cloth one] and the trash drop neck slot then they probably haven't worked on their gear enough)

(Reply to this)(Parent)
Final Stats
[info]b_dazzld
2007-06-20 05:02 pm UTC (link)

------------ Druid ------------
* Balance
7,000 health
8,500 mana
550 +spell damage
6% +hit
15% +crit

* Feral (bear)
415 defense and Survival of the Fittest talent
20,000 armor
12,000 health
20% dodge
1,000 attack power
20% crit chance

* Feral (cat)
2,000 attack power
23% crit chance
6,500 health

* Restoration
900 +healing
90 mp5 while casting
6,000 health
7,500 mana

------------ Hunter ------------
6,000 health
200 intellect
1,575 attack power (1,425 for Beast Mastery, 1,500 for Survival)
5% +hit
18% crit chance (23% for survival)
500 agility (only applicable for survival)

------------ Mage ------------
6,000 health
8,500 mana
550 +damage
6% +hit
15% +crit

------------ Paladin ------------
* Tank
9,500 armor
490 defense
10,000 health
200 +damage

* Healing
6,500 health
900 +healing
80 mp5 while casting
8,000 mana

------------ Priest ------------
* Healing
1,250 +healing
100 mp5 while casting
5,000 health
7,500 mana

* Shadow
6,000 health
7,500 mana
600 +damage
6% +hit

------------ Rogue ------------
7,000 health
1,400 attack power
150 hit rating
20% crit chance
Pair of 71 DPS weapons

------------ Shaman ------------
* Elemental
7,500 health
8,500 mana
550 +damage
250 +crit rating

* Enhancement
8,000 health
7,000 mana
1,100 attack power
100 hit rating
25% crit chance

* Restoration
7,500 health
9,500 mana
1,100 +healing
100 mp5 while casting

------------ Warlock ------------
675 +damage
~3% +hit
~10% +crit
450 stamina
350 intellect

------------ Warrior ------------
* Protection
490 defense
11,000 health
11,000 armor

* Fury
9,000 health
1,300 attack power
10% +hit
23% crit chance

* Arms
9,000 health
1,400 attack power
3% +hit
27% crit chance

After we were able to get Prince to 1 percent on the first attempts on him, even with half the members at these or near these starting stats, we decided to not be too harsh on our requirements until it's shown we really need it.

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Re: Final Stats
[info]eeepeeep
2007-06-20 07:24 pm UTC (link)
Those stats for shadow priests still aren't bad as a general starting guidline, I suppose. I just hope you guys understand that a shadow priest showing up with 1k +shadow damage and 6500 mana will have MORE lasting power then one with 700 shadow damage and 7500 mana. Not only that all the mana users in their group will have more, as a good shadow priest provides around 150ish mp5 while casting to their whole party.

If you've got a shadow priest who is constantly running OOM but have 900+ shadow damage they need to understand that they should be chugging super mana pots constantly and using a smart spell mix to keep their mana high. (basically they should be able to keep dots up and chain cast mindflay FOREVER without their mana really dropping at all and without chugging super mana pots, but this causes a drastic loss in sustained DPS)

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Re: Final Stats
[info]b_dazzld
2007-06-20 09:23 pm UTC (link)
I'd agree and we aren't rigid if someone came with 1k S damage and 6500 mana, I doubt we'd say no ;-)

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Re: Final Stats
[info]kaziel_fateseer
2007-06-21 09:37 pm UTC (link)
If I may, you might as well up the armor aspect of a tankadin's. Not saying that you should be more stringent, but the reality is if someone's gotten to the point where they can break 10k health, have 490 defense and 200+ spell damage, they probably have upwards of 11k armor, w/o devo aura. I know I did when I was hitting up Karazhan to start.

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Re: Final Stats
[info]b_dazzld
2007-06-21 11:16 pm UTC (link)
thanks!!

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[info]wildrice13
2007-06-21 09:06 pm UTC (link)
What you have listed for Druids in Bear form, armor-wise, is very hard to get pre-Heroics. I say pre-Heroics only because I've yet to do them, not because I don't think I should have to. Anyway, I feel that I tank quite well (Dendris on Alleria, if I have Darkstorm Tunic on that's my cat gear and not representative, silly Armory) and while I feel like I'm not quite Kara-ready, I'm getting close.

Replacing the three pieces of Heavy Clefthoof will bring me to around 16k armor. Getting more without dropping the other stats you have listed... not sure how to do it. Nevermind trading in any resistance gear as appropriate.

On the other hand, you only list 10k for warrior tank armor. You list 490 defense for them, so is that where you see the trade-off happening. You list 415 defense for bear, and once I get Heavy Clefthoof I'll have at least 430 (depending on the gems I socket, it might be 450 or more).

I hope this doesn't come across as whining or the like; I know my guild will be taking me on Kara when we get it going regardless. But I noted that as of this posting you didn't list any Druid tanks in your core team, and so I thought maybe your gear listing for them was in some way biased or possibly uninformed. If you believe otherwise, by all means tell me why.

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[info]wildrice13
2007-06-21 09:41 pm UTC (link)
After reading the bottom of your post, I see you have posted some suggested changes. So here's some concrete numbers for you. Take them with a grain of salt since I'm not basing this on experience but rather on some theorycrafting and on availability, but I do think I'm remaining fairly stringent...

* Feral (bear)
450 defense and Survival of the Fittest talent
17,000 armor
13,000 health
20% dodge
1,000 attack power
20% crit

And possibly some attention to resilience, though I'm not comfortable enough with the stat to give you any number estimate on that one.

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[info]b_dazzld
2007-06-21 11:18 pm UTC (link)
Our only feral druid that we had is also our best resto druid lol so with the fine tanks we have we opted to go with him healing =) But we are recruiting feral druids so this will help--thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!

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