The Straightlaced Bohemian ([info]myrch) wrote in [info]worldofwarcraft,
@ 2007-04-23 10:51:00
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Experiment with moonkin

Short story: I decided to level to 70 my first WoW char, a balance-spec'd druid, which had become something of a bank for my other characters. I did this to level mining and jewelcrafting, but oh... something funny happened on the way to the forum.

Players were unaware that the most powerful class in the game would be the least played.

While moonkin still pose something of a tantalizing juicy morsel in PvP, in PvE I have been finishing on top of damage meters the last seven instances I've run, and in some cases it wasn't even close. I've gone up against superiorly-geared hunters, rogues, mages, and warlocks. Despite the ongoing oomkin joke, mana is not a problem if the fights are 5 minutes long or less, i.e., not raids. Under *those* circumstances, moonkin need to bring lots of pots to the party as their innervate will probably go to a resto druid or priest. That said, moonkin do want to stock up on mp5 gear and gems.

With relatively crappy gear, I have +650 spell damage (with self buffs) and about a 25% chance to crit. My starfires routinely crit for over 3,000 and my wraths are nearing 2,000 -- that's a 1.0 - 1.5 second cast, by the way. It's sick.

The point of this post is merely to make comm members aware (if they weren't already) that moonkin have quietly become one of the top DPS -- if not the top DPS -- class builds in the game. Respect!




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[info]nerglish
2007-04-23 03:56 pm UTC (link)
Moonkin still annoy me. I don't care about damage meters. I'm tired of them. They are a kin to Shadow Priest (imo) pulling aggro, not watching out for themselves, and dieing. This is a generalization, of course, that is based on pugs with members of said spec/class on my server. I'm sure there are many examples that will contradict what I've said, but my opinion still stands in general.

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[info]myrch
2007-04-23 04:09 pm UTC (link)

we're too cute to annoy amirite.

that complaint, about pulling aggro, can be (and is) made about any dps class.

if starfires crit, that's 1500-2000 damage the moonkin didn't expect to do, so yeah, pulling aggro will happen if the moonkin isn't careful.

i would agree that one weakness of the moonkin is a lack of options if we DO pull aggro. that's one of the reasons blizzard buffed moonkin armor and gave the class a spell resist talent, though. and anyway, pfft, i heal myself!

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(no subject) - [info]nerglish, 2007-04-23 04:14 pm UTC

[info]novus_semita
2007-04-24 02:52 am UTC (link)
Then you've grouped with some shitty balance druids.

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(no subject) - [info]nerglish, 2007-04-24 03:17 am UTC

[info]dr_laxative
2007-04-23 03:59 pm UTC (link)
Grats man, I've also noticed the DPSness of OOMkin.

Although I do have to say I hardly believe you've been up against talented and properly geared mages or locks in a situation where agroo control was important and still out dpsed either.

I've been in 5-mans with a OOMkin and been out dpsed for the first 30 mins but he also pulled agroo on every single pull.

Also, are you talking DPS in each pull or total DPS by the end of a run and did you count pet damage for locks?

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[info]myrch
2007-04-23 05:05 pm UTC (link)
yeah, i am talking about total dps for an entire instance, including pets (and minions like treants).

i pull aggro a lot, so it's been something of a learning experience to get a feeling for when it's time to nuke. it's easy to forget that moonfire and insect swarm dots actually tick for a fair amount of damage. anyway, it's been very, very fun, and i love the fact that if my group gets into trouble, we have a party ass-saver in tranquility.

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[info]spartonian
2007-04-23 04:09 pm UTC (link)
I'll admit I don't have much experience with Doomkin, but I have a hard time believing they can out DPS any of the dedicated DPS classes.

Your extremely long cast Starfire might crit for 3k+, but a mage in my guild has had ignite ticks for 1700, meaning his Scorch/Fireblast/Fireball/Pyroblast must have crit. I don't even want to know what our Warlocks hit for with the Immolate/Incinerate combo. Our Hunter officer, as much as I can't stand him, autoshots for 1200 or something close to that. Hell, I hit a mob yesterday for 1250 with Mangle, and I'm only 59.

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[info]myrch
2007-04-23 05:12 pm UTC (link)
yeah, well, i guess i wouldn't have made this post if i wasn't surprised myself. stunned, even.

it's important that you (and the warlock below) compare class builds that are similarly *geared*. the mage and hunter you mention clearly are wearing some pretty nice epics. a properly geared balance druid in my guild does starfire crits for 5000 now (and he crits often), so i was hardly bragging when i said mine do 3100 or so. if you do the math, i think you'll see the druid i mentioned will be very competitive with the mage and hunter you mentioned. keep in mind that moonkins will keep insect swarm and moonfire dots on the target going at all times, which tick (for an awesomely geared druid) for perhaps 400 each. wrath spamming actually does more damage per second than starfire, but it's less mana efficient.

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(no subject) - [info]gholam, 2007-04-23 05:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cultureofdoubt, 2007-04-23 05:38 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]gholam, 2007-04-23 05:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cultureofdoubt, 2007-04-23 05:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]gholam, 2007-04-23 05:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cultureofdoubt, 2007-04-23 05:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]gholam, 2007-04-23 05:55 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cultureofdoubt, 2007-04-23 05:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]gholam, 2007-04-23 06:04 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cultureofdoubt, 2007-04-23 06:06 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]gholam, 2007-04-23 06:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]nsdragon, 2007-04-23 07:03 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]myrch, 2007-04-23 05:55 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]gholam, 2007-04-23 06:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]myrch, 2007-04-23 06:22 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]myrch, 2007-04-23 06:24 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]gholam, 2007-04-23 06:31 pm UTC

[info]saintinhell
2007-04-23 05:15 pm UTC (link)
Don't be. My rogue (combat spec mind you, not crappy subtlety spec or anything) is usually at the top of damage meters, but I am often closely followed by shadow priests and enhancement shamans - who are not supposed to be "dps classes". I don't have much experience with moonkin either, but I won't be surprised if a dedicated one with the proper gear can put out a buttload of damage.

OTOH, none of those classes have Feint, or Vanish, or built-in reduced threat from melee attack. So whether you can call a moonkin "as good" dps as a class with threat reduction abilities is debatable in a raid situation... altho I guess you can always go cat form and cower. ;)

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[info]darthkurai
2007-04-23 04:21 pm UTC (link)
Hunter numbers nowadays are 1100-1200 for auto, 1500-1700 for steady, 1600-1800 for Arcane, 1800-2300 for multi, and 3000-3500 (ZOMG!) for Aimed.

So ... I doubt that a Moonkin will out DPS me (especially with pet DPS added) unless they go all-out and pull aggro. However, I have not had ANY experience with DOOMkins, so I can't be sure.

I would still expect a DOOMkin to be very competitive though, but not top DPS.

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[info]myrch
2007-04-23 05:13 pm UTC (link)
fair enough!

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[info]bryneshrimp
2007-04-23 09:13 pm UTC (link)
Those are crit numbers, not regular hits.

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(no subject) - [info]darthkurai, 2007-04-24 04:06 am UTC

[info]shannrd
2007-04-23 04:25 pm UTC (link)
*shrug* One of my best in-game friends is a boomkin, I'm a mage, he has better gear than me, but I still tend to out-dps him and pull far less aggro.

But it's close. Very close. And he loves it and does a great job imo, so I say more power to him.

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[info]myrch
2007-04-23 05:13 pm UTC (link)
woo. ;)

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[info]gholam
2007-04-23 04:25 pm UTC (link)
That's some pretty sad mages and warlocks you managed to dredge up.



Heroic underbog, about 3 weeks ago. That's an oomkin druid right above the tank.

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[info]redmagiks
2007-04-23 04:31 pm UTC (link)
Gotta agree here.
My little warlock just hit 69 and went into Black morass with a pug lead by a boomkin (He was wearing spellfire, claimed to have over 900 +arcane).
Doing nothing but add control I still out-damaged him -.-
And yes, he happened to be running damage meters and we we're synced.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]myrch, 2007-04-23 05:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]gholam, 2007-04-23 05:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]myrch, 2007-04-23 05:17 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]gholam, 2007-04-23 05:31 pm UTC

[info]quill18
2007-04-23 04:39 pm UTC (link)
Congrats. You're a moonkin.

You spend no time CCing targets and can just focus on DPS, inflating your meters about mages and hunters.

Also, you have a tendency to pull aggro near the beginning of the fight due to burst damage and lack of threat-reducers. This messes with tanking, healing, and melee DPS.

Finally, let's not even discuss 5+ minute raid fights when you go OOM during normal-mode dungeon boss fights.

It's not a problem with the class. It's a problem with the mentality of every moonkin I've partied with. The obsession with ZOMG BIG CRITS. I quote: "My starfires routinely crit for over 3,000".

Congrats, you get to top damage meters for non-sustained fights. I am impressed by the size of your sexual organ. Really.

Balance has gotten some big buffs. I am extremely happy for these. That being said, Moonkins have to stop drooling over crits/damage meters and re-learn how to be team players.

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[info]myrch
2007-04-23 05:31 pm UTC (link)
your sarcasm and hostility are so completely unnecessary.

most of your points are valid.

what you are wrong about is the versatility of moonkin as a support class in a party or raid. insect swarm reduces damage on the main tank. imp faerie fire increases chance to hit -- as you should know, a +3% chance to hit is a huge boon to your MT, rogues, and hunters when the mob is level 73 or ??. the moonkin can still serve as a mana battery for healers. last, you're just plain wrong about CC. moonkins do have CC, and it IS useful in many instances, from kara to heroic BM.

Finally, let's not even discuss 5+ minute raid fights

Learn to read? I acknowledge this in my OP. But it's more like 15 minute fights, actually. I do not run out of mana if the fight is 10 or less and I'm happy to pot if I do.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]myrch, 2007-04-23 05:32 pm UTC

[info]xella
2007-04-23 04:49 pm UTC (link)
I regret to inform you that, as an ex-druid and current tank, moonkin is down there with "ret paladin" on my "list of DPS that I'd like to bring to a group." Ret and Balance can both put out reasonable DPS, and given the right circumstances can easily top the meters... but I don't give a rat's ass about the meters, I care about keeping my group alive and my mobs where they should be (on me).

This is ridiculously hard to do with enhancement shaman, ret paladins, and balance druids, especially since most of them haven't got the foggiest clue in the world how to manage their aggro and think that starting a starfire on a mob I barely have disliking me is a good idea. Enhancement shaman have an excuse; their threat reduction talent is broken. Ret paladins and balance druids have no such excuse.

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[info]cheatachu
2007-04-23 05:09 pm UTC (link)
"Enhancement shaman have an excuse; their threat reduction talent is broken. Ret paladins and balance druids have no such excuse."

ain't that the truth...:(

All i do now is just auto attack and that's about it, and I've still taken hate.. :(

I guess that'll change when we get our nerf...err... "fix" on WF.

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(no subject) - [info]royalcartouche, 2007-04-23 05:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cheatachu, 2007-04-24 01:25 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]myrch, 2007-04-23 05:34 pm UTC

[info]yisca
2007-04-23 04:52 pm UTC (link)
he point of this post is merely to make comm members aware (if they weren't already) that moonkin have quietly become one of the top DPS -- if not the top DPS -- class builds in the game.

... and seeing them back again makes them great guild bantering material

/chicken

>-)

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[info]redarius
2007-04-23 04:54 pm UTC (link)
You're probably going to get a lot of crap for your post, so I'll be as nice as I can about this. Balance druid damage has received a needed bump, but by the pure numbers (theorycraft and real game play), it's still an inferior mana-based direct damage class when compared to mages, hunters and warlocks. Leather +dmg itemization has also received a healthy boost (i.e. leather pieces with +dmg actually exist in the game).

I suppose it's fun to play a space chicken with sky lasers, and that the dance is hilarious. However, by the numbers in equal gear, a mage, warlock, hunter or elemental shaman can and will out dps a balance druid. Balance druids are situationally superior (frex, arcane vulnerable mobs) and have great survivability vs. say a mage in a situation where you may take a lot of splash damage, or if you need to aggro tank something in the absence of a real off tank, but Balance druids are not secretly top dps. The gap between top dps and bottom dps has narrowed, to be sure, but Balance druids are still at the bottom of the ladder on the direct spell damage tree. Sorry.

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[info]myrch
2007-04-23 06:20 pm UTC (link)
yep, lots of crap. haha

it's ok. lots of cantakerous people in this community. i'm probably one of them. ;)

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(no subject) - [info]lexinatrix, 2007-04-23 08:30 pm UTC
MOD NOTE - [info]netgoth, 2007-04-24 04:34 am UTC
Re: MOD NOTE - [info]netgoth, 2007-04-24 04:41 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]evilfoo, 2007-04-23 08:48 pm UTC

[info]ryalt
2007-04-23 05:19 pm UTC (link)
I play a druid, and I honestly have never gone boomkin with my level 55 druid, though I may mess around with it a little once I hit 70. (I'm feral/resto atm, and loving it.)

My biggest fear is mana, and /having/ to use innervate on yourself and not saving it for the healer in an instance.

I am sure they could be pretty sick in PvP, I just haven't had the inclination to mess around with because pre-BC content there is crap for leather with +damage.

I still they look wicked goofy though.

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[info]myrch
2007-04-23 06:19 pm UTC (link)
very goofy heh. i double as entertainment in 5 mans. every time i whip out the treants someone in the group goes

TREES

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[info]noelove
2007-04-23 05:33 pm UTC (link)
Doomkin FTW. I LOVE being a moonkin!

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[info]myrch
2007-04-23 05:38 pm UTC (link)
finally some love!

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(no subject) - [info]noelove, 2007-04-23 05:45 pm UTC

[info]doricom
2007-04-23 05:33 pm UTC (link)
Post-TBC, I respecc'd my Resto Druid to a Balance Druid. I must say, I do love the change, but I lovingly refer to my Druid as the "Retarded Druid", since with this build she's slow to DPS, and slow to heal (shorter cast time on Starfire is nice, but it's still a LONG cast; plus not having the reduction on my Healing Touch HURTS!). It's cool to have the Treants; I love my Tree Boys. :D I don't really ever run out of mana, and I feel much more powerful (trying to level a Resto Druid?? No thanks!) than I was when I was Resto. I didn't go Feral because I was/am no good at the shapeshift forms (I know, I know; a Druid who's not good at shapeshifting!). It's cool to pump out MUCH more damage than I did when I was Resto, but I'm no MT, nor do I approach anyone who IS a DPS class. :) Just my two cents, for what it's worth. :D

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[info]krmtdfrog
2007-04-23 05:46 pm UTC (link)
Personally, I look for the min/maxers here. I look at the screenshots of the D&Ts, the Nihilums, Curses, Auroras, Death Wishes and other guild doing bleeding edge raid content. These are the people that do everything possible to get the most out of the encounter. They flask, elixir, pot and test pretty much every kind of spec.

They have no moonkins. Sorry.

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[info]gholam
2007-04-23 05:53 pm UTC (link)
An interesting side observation is that these guilds happen to have almost no firelocks. Despite the OMG INCINERATE JUST CRIT FOR 12K ZOMG!!!!@!!!!11!! factor. Makes me chuckle every time I see those claims.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]myrch, 2007-04-23 06:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]gholam, 2007-04-23 06:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pologeek, 2007-04-23 07:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]krmtdfrog, 2007-04-24 02:22 am UTC

[info]simplypip
2007-04-23 06:42 pm UTC (link)
To the naysayers: my SO plays a mean Moonkin, and I play the Paladin tank they never pull aggro off of while maintaining top damage.

Guess we both suck, eh?

To the OP: Doomkin rawk. :D Glad you're enjoying it!

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]bryneshrimp
2007-04-23 09:16 pm UTC (link)
No, you don't suck. The people you play with, however, aren't up to par.

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(no subject) - [info]simplypip, 2007-04-23 09:20 pm UTC

[info]jsciv
2007-04-23 10:39 pm UTC (link)
I've had a chance to wander into the balance tree (my preferred healer build is balance/resto) and PTR'ed Moonkin for quite a while. I also have had a chance to tank with and heal for Moonkins in 5-man groups.

The first thing I have to say is that the difference in DPS between the 27/0/34 build and a full balance build (given the same gear) isn't all that much. It's really (REALLY) nice to actually be able to do DPS as a spellcaster, but I don't really buy Moonkin form as all that much of a help (much as I don't really buy Tree form hence the hybrid healing build). I have yet to group with a Moonkin whose damage I've respected. If a Moonkin's at the top of the chart then the group's overall DPS is low enough that we're usually having problems with some of the bosses that I don't usually see problems with.

I'm open to a good DPS Moonkin, I just haven't seen one yet. I also can't imagine how a hunter, rogue or mage who's trying wouldn't toast the Moonkin in damage out, and as long as the 'lock has a few long fights to help in ditto that for them. I do believe that a Moonkin might beat one or more of them in DPS if they were performing other group roles (CC most notably), but in flat-out DPS? I'd have to be witness to it to believe it, personally.

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[info]redarius
2007-04-23 11:23 pm UTC (link)
I would love to get a screenshot of you in moonkin form. *grin* I'd never let you live it down!

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(no subject) - [info]jsciv, 2007-04-24 12:35 am UTC

[info]aurora77
2007-04-24 12:48 am UTC (link)
Aiyee. When I saw the post, I knew there would be some, er, mixed reactions. I'm often surprised by how people are so strongly biased against moonkin! :(

As a raid leader, I'm okay with having a moonkin who knows what he's doing and doesn't often draw aggro and knows what to do when he does draw aggro (because we all do now and again). We've even had a moonkin offtank briefly here and there when things went awry. Roots was useful for places like AQ or ZG, so the CC argument doesn't hold up there. We were glad to have a moonkin (ranged and immune to polymorph) for tanking the shaman in the Maulgar fight. We try to allow people of all specs a chance to play and not pigeonhole them. (But we do have a great group of team players who do what's necessary for the success of the raid, even if it's not always their favorite thing. :D) It's forced me to try to look for different ways of using the talents of each class. I think that the leader that forces certain specs and certain roles all the time is not a very resourceful one and will have less success than one who takes full advantage of the abilities their raiders have. Their raiders will also have less fun.

As a druid, I'm enjoying my moonkin. A lot. But I'm still a healer at heart, so when I took my balance tree talents I still chose ones that helped with mana regen, +healing AND damage, and lower spell costs so that I can still switch and heal when needed.

As a guild leader, I want people to enjoy their character and pick something that suits their play style. That's part of what's kept me open to different specs. Each has strong points and if played well can be an asset in different situations.

Anywho, just my two cents.

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[info]myrch
2007-04-24 02:06 pm UTC (link)
open mindedness makes you a superior guild leader imo.

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[info]phobia47
2007-04-24 06:22 pm UTC (link)
fire mages could easily kill the dps charts but if they dont keep it slow and steady, the aggro they would produce would give them nothing to show for but a -10% durability.

it's nice to top the dps charts but it's also nice to play responsible in a group instead of spamming spells, waiting for the tank to taunt them off of you and repeating yourself. not saying this is how you play, but just my experiance with moonkin.

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[info]myrch
2007-04-24 07:23 pm UTC (link)
i suppose in my OP i should have stressed that i do not pull aggro often, and when i do, it's usually on purpose (trying to pull mobs off a healer, for example, when the tank is busy).

not that you care, probably, but my streak at the top of the charts in 5-mans is now 9... and i've learned moonkin are better at handling the non-elite adds in BM than mages...

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