wiscon: Stop posting or sharing personal information about others.

betsy (

kalmn) wrote in

wiscon,
@ 2008-05-28 21:08:00

Stop posting or sharing personal information about others.
The woman who took those pictures at WisCon is now saying that people are posting and sharing her personal contact information, including the contact information for members of her family.

Not acceptable behavior.

Cut it the fuck out.

"But she started it" is *still* not a valid argument.

I do not know where the people who are doing this thing are. I post this here in case any of you who are reading this do, or can help pass on this message, in case anyone out there who may read this is thinking about it.

It is not acceptable behavior to post people's personal contact information.

Do not stoop to her level.

I understand that people are angry and hurt. We all have a right to be angry and hurt.

And as a community, we have a right to ask our members to behave in certain ways. Here are three: Do not come to the convention for the sole purpose of mocking your fellow congoers. Do not make threats of physical violence. And do not share other people's personal contact information for the sole purpose of harassing them.

(Post a new comment)

daedala
2008-05-29 02:45 am UTC (link)

That's very bad, if it's happening.

Still, I'm honestly not sure I'd trust her claim. People have posted her name, workplace, and an email, but those can be googled extremely easily. I also wonder if her claim that people are harassing her at work might more accurately be described as coworker's complaints, since there are so many UW students and staff at the con. Of course, I'm inferring that if she's a graduate student at the U she's employed by the U, but then, I was a chemistry grad student there, and I was.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	kalmn 2008-05-29 02:48 am UTC (link)
	if it is happening, i would greatly appreciate it if people cut it out. if it is not happening, i would greatly appreciate it if people not start it. and i know that in the past, i've been in situations where i've been tempted to do that or something similar, so i understand the temptation. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

daedala
2008-05-29 03:00 am UTC (link)

Absolutely.

I felt the need to say that because I really don't want this post to be taken as evidence that people are actually threatening her or posting contact information (beyond the email addresses she herself has posted) for her and her family. I haven't seen any evidence for anything like it.

Edited to add: If there is actual evidence for such, of course, then I wouldn't argue it. But saying "don't do that" isn't evidence that "that" is happening.

Edited at 2008-05-29 03:02 am UTC

(Reply to this) (Parent)

panjianlien
2008-05-29 11:03 am UTC (link)

Just FYI, I understand that "outing" people's personal info on forum boards is a common response to egregious trolling on a number of large predominantly-male boards (e.g. Slashdot, where it happens fairly often). The tradition, such as it is, is for a poster to anonymously list the troller's personal information, without comment or incitement.

What gets done with that information is up to other folks. But if the info is publicly accessible, it's considered fair game (legally) to post it. Using it to do things that are NOT legal is, of course, not legal. But posting it is legal, and AFAIK, used pretty consistently as a means of community policing on some forums.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	True Dat. adriandrake 2008-05-29 02:50 am UTC (link)
	As someone who was poked by her post, as well as my wife and my son, I think I'd have a right to still be going off. And I agree it should stop. Why bother lowering yourself to her level. Just walk away. I know it may still sting, but the truth is, you're better than that. All of you. Just let it die. hugs to all who still need one (Reply to this)

	I Wouldn't Do it , But shelleybear 2008-05-29 02:53 am UTC (link)
	For every action, there are reactions. The threats of violence are a bit much. But, as to the rest. Unfortunate, but not unexpected. When you attack someone in a place they consider safe, the shit is going to hit the fan, and in a very bad way. This is going to have to burn itself out on it's own. (Reply to this)

	seaya 2008-05-29 03:07 am UTC (link)
	I don't find myself believing her. I have read soooo many posts on it, and no one has posted anything about her family. They have given her name and looked up past internet posts, perhaps. I'll wait for evidence to be produced. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	sparkymonster 2008-05-29 06:25 am UTC (link)
	Stuff about her family has been posted at SA/SASS, and yet she is still blaming us. Thanks Rachel! (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	happyelfling 2008-05-29 03:58 pm UTC (link)
	yeah, what you said. i haven't seen the info anywhere but SA/SASS either and i've also read a zillion posts on this by now. i understand that it's a good idea for our community to post warnings/reminders, just to keep our impulses in check, but i don't like our community being blamed for it when it's pretty obvious who posted her info. (Reply to this) (Parent)

nojojojo
2008-05-29 04:41 am UTC (link)

The only posting of her personal information that I've seen is being done by the people on the SA and SASS forums. The SASS forum contains a relatively recent post (p. 17 of the very long thread, but you have to be a member to view it) that has her (possible) phone number, which somebody Googled.

So basically what's happening is that the same horrible people she solicited to point and laugh at Wiscon's attendees have now turned on her, mostly because she showed the briefest sign of weakness with her initial (now removed) apology. As far as I can tell, no one from Wiscon has anything to do with it.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	daedala 2008-05-29 04:53 am UTC (link)
	That explains why I haven't seen it. Aha! (Reply to this) (Parent)

	vito_excalibur 2008-05-29 04:44 am UTC (link)
	I can't help being amused by the escalating level of these warnings. I look forward to seeing your post tomorrow: "Though what Rachel Moss did was unacceptable, it is still not acceptable to firebomb her house. Do not stoop to her level." (No, I'm not doing any of these things... but I'm not going to stop enjoying the instant karma, either.) (Reply to this) (Thread)

	commodorified 2008-05-29 05:14 am UTC (link)
	She probably lives in res or shared housing. :) No, I am not either. I still think people recognising her name off and on for the next decade and making That Face is gonna be all the suffering she needs. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	kalmn 2008-05-29 05:46 am UTC (link)
	vito, i am a sick woman. do not make me laugh that hard. (also, please, no one firebomb her house. kthxbai.) (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	sparkymonster 2008-05-29 06:35 am UTC (link)
	Can we make puppets out of scrap paper and use them for creating plays which viciously mock her? Please?! puppy eyes (Reply to this) (Parent)

	replyhazy 2008-05-29 03:49 pm UTC (link)
	coffee on keyboard!!! (Reply to this) (Parent)

stillnotbored
2008-05-29 05:43 am UTC (link)

I didn't know anything about this until tonight. Now after following links and googling this woman's name I want to throw up. It's not the WisCon flu either. This is the most appalling thing I've ever seen.

Everything she posted is still online, all the pictures a lot of them with names--only modified with captions and photo shopped to be even more hateful. Pages and pages of pictures. Locking the Flickr pool accounts didn't stop them from downloading pictures.

Somewhere in the WisCon community there must be a lawyer or two. Someone with push and clout needs to take legal action against the site hosting this nest of hate mongers. I have a hard time believing what they are doing is legal.

Someone needs to do something to get this taken down before it hurts any more people.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

kalmn
2008-05-29 05:57 am UTC (link)

i believe that the sites in question are appalling, awful, and several other words that begin with a. i also believe they're legal. they've been around for nine years, and if no one has yet been able to sue them out of existence yet, i think that it's not going to happen now, either.

i'd like to hear what you are proposing to do to either help support the people affected or to help get this taken down. saying "someone needs to do something" is all well and good, but it's more useful to say what *you* are going to do.

also, please do not make threats, call her family, or firebomb her house. ;)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	upstart_crow 2008-05-29 06:34 am UTC (link)
	I'm no lawyer, but I don't think that this is illegal, especially as it was at a public event. If she explicitly took a photo of someone who told her not to, maybe then...? (Reply to this) (Parent)

tekanji
2008-05-29 08:42 am UTC (link)

I'm no expert, but I do know a little bit as to the legality of such sites. The sites themselves, as far as I can tell, are legal. However, the admins of the sites and the users are responsible for their content. Which means that anyone who can prove libel/defamation of character could take Lowtax to court and possibly win.

There is legal precedent for this, which a recent case of female law students against a site called AutoAdmit.

There's also the question of cyberharassment and cyberstalking, both of which are crimes. If those could be proved -- and since SA and SASS are posting Rachel's personal information, I think it could be -- she could take it up with local law enforcement. Of course, it would hurt her case that she was the one who began the cyberharassment.

I'm not sure if wronged parties from Wiscon would be able to do much. The people who own the copyright of the pictures could certainly hit them with a DCMA for unauthorized hosting and modification of their work, but that would probably be more effort than it was worth. Those who were singled out -- like

adriandrake and his family -- might have a case for cyberharassment, but as with real harassment it usually has to be something drastic before law enforcement will do anything.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	lawsuits (Anonymous) 2008-05-30 12:50 am UTC (link)
	Now, fun is fun and all ladies, but taking things against Lowtax in "RL" is a step too far. The man has a non-working wife and two children (Lauren and Kevin, maybe three?) to feed and he doesn't need this kind of stress at this moment. He's a human being just like you or me, and I think we all need to treat him accordingly before we consider resorting to legal action. (Reply to this) (Parent)

(Deleted post)

	kalmn 2008-05-29 02:22 pm UTC (link)
	daedala, i have screened your comment. please contact me as soon as you can to talk about it, so that i can unscreen it? (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

An Idea

daedala
2008-05-29 04:34 pm UTC (link)

(This was screened because I didn't write it as well as I should have and there could be confusion. It is now Fixed. I hope.)

Ok, here's an idea. Note that it's in the spirit of fiery coals.

Rachel Moss appears to be the only person currently with a legal case against the SA/SASS posts. Maybe the Imaginary Proposed Wiscon Legal Defense Fund should take it on. Note that the IPWLDF does not exist and there is no money for such, but this is imaginary.

Does she deserve it? No. Hell, no. But I can see advantages:

1. Since she has an actual case, it may result in things being taken down.
2. It is a concrete, actionable thing to do. People often feel better about that.
3. It makes us look good. This is the above-the-atmosphere road. And yeah, I know the air is thin.
4. It may also make people who are feeling unhappy about being mean-spirited and stooping (because, dude, I totally feel mean-spirited about this woman) feel better.

This is a suggestion. I am not sure it is a good one, or how much merit #1 actually has. But, hey, idea!

Edited at 2008-05-29 04:35 pm UTC

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: An Idea
(Anonymous)
2008-05-30 12:40 am UTC (link)

Since she submitted it to Something Awful first, it means Something Awful and not Rachel Moss holds intellectual property rights on her original posts. And the odds that Lowtax/SA is going to try anything legal against SASS for this, after all the hijinks SASS has pulled on them in the past, is virtually nil.

Anyways, I'll leave you to write a fanfic about this and adjourn this session of imaginary internet court.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	Re: An Idea daedala 2008-05-30 01:23 am UTC (link)
	My idea has nothing to do with the content of her posts, just the threats against her person combined with personal information about her in the comments. Who owns the posts is pretty irrelevant. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	Re: An Idea (Anonymous) 2008-05-30 01:27 am UTC (link)
	Since the only copies of her documents exist on her own livejournal (and google caches of them), that's even less substantial then what I would . And why would the same people who are harassing her mother and sending her death threats start giving her money for a lawyer? (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	Re: An Idea daedala 2008-05-30 01:29 am UTC (link)
	You are apparently a troll. I've yet to see any evidence whatsoever that Wiscon-identified people have been doing any of that. The SA/SASS comments, however, appear by multiple reports to include it. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	Re: An Idea (Anonymous) 2008-05-30 01:33 am UTC (link)
	I have yet to see any evidence of SA/SASS-identified people have been doing any of that. Also, I have yet to see a plausible motive for SA/SASS doing any of that. A lot of WisCon people have claimed it, but I'm not inclined to they speak for the whole of their group. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	Re: An Idea daedala 2008-05-30 03:01 pm UTC (link)
	Since anonymous comments are banned now, it's probably poor form to continue arguing with Anonymous Cowardly Trolls. Edited at 2008-05-30 03:01 pm UTC (Reply to this) (Parent)

	Re: An Idea daedala 2008-05-30 01:46 am UTC (link)
	Further, I was not, and would never, suggest giving her money for a lawyer. You seem determined to misunderstand. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	Re: An Idea (Anonymous) 2008-05-30 01:30 am UTC (link)
	Since the only copies of her documents exist on her own livejournal (and google caches of them), that's even less substantial then what I thought it was. And why would the same people who are harassing her mother and sending her death threats start giving her money for a lawyer? (necessitating this lawsuit in the first place) (Reply to this) (Parent)

stillnotbored
2008-05-29 04:15 pm UTC (link)

My phrasing at 2 a.m. frequently leaves something to be desired. And by 'someone' I meant a person, like a lawyer, with more legal knowledge and clout than I have. What I'm going to do is attempt to find out just what the rules are regarding ISPs hosting websites that defame and slander people in a deliberate and harmful way. It might be a futile effort, but at least a try at legal action is better than wringing our hands and crying woe. I'd rather take a shot at shutting down the bastards if at all possible.

There are pictures of my friends up on that site with captions that are vile and evil. I'm pretty sure they don't know their pictures are part of this and the way they're being used. Some of the pictures I found of my friends are two years old. That was the last time these women were at WisCon and digging those pictures up took time and effort. This goes a lot further than Ms. Moss and her twisted morality.

I also found pictures of former GOHs, editors and authors that are well known in the WisCon and feminist community. These same women are well known and well regarded in the larger genre world, award winners even. I'm guessing they don't know their pictures are up there either or the things being said about them. I'm very uncertain about the morality of telling these women or letting them dwell in blissful ignorance.

I'm fairly new to the WisCon community (3 yrs) but I've been a feminist since the early 1970's. I worked for the ERA and I've tangled with Operation Rescue more than once. I've been threatened, but in all that time I never found the need to make threats, call someone's family or firebomb a house. I don't plan on starting now, just so you know. ;)

But I do pity Ms. Moss. The amount of self loathing implied by her actions is mind boggling. I always wonder about younger women who turn on their own this way and speak of feminists as some alien and evil creatures. If not for other women fighting the good fight so our daughters wouldn't have to, she most likely wouldn't be in the course of study I've seen listed for her. A lot of things she and other young women take as givens would be denied to her.

Yet she feels the need to mock feminists and associate herself with the hate on the SA and SASS site. That is very sad.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	sparkymonster 2008-05-29 06:12 am UTC (link)
	Her phone # was posted by the Something Awful/Something Awful Sycophant Squad is members locked posts. So....yeah. I think perhaps Rachel Moss could ponder the location of the hate. Edited at 2008-05-29 06:24 am UTC (Reply to this) (Thread)

	upstart_crow 2008-05-29 06:29 am UTC (link)
	Wow, with friends like those ... (Reply to this) (Parent)

Me being less polite than kalmn

upstart_crow
2008-05-29 06:28 am UTC (link)

OK, guys and gals? If this is a WisConner doing this shit, knock it the fuck off. You needed to knock it the fuck off five days ago. Seriously, you just attended a con where we talked about how violence against women is not OK. Did you just forget all of that after you left the hotel? Does it magically not count as violence if it's over the phone or if it involves someone's family? What she did was unacceptable, but what you're doing is almost worse, because you should know better. Especially after you or your friends were hurt by someone who just had to come and harass others.

Criminently.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Me being less polite than kalmn

rdkeir
2008-05-29 04:28 pm UTC (link)

Please don't buy into the line that it is Wisconners doing this. If Rachel has any evidence of this, she hasn't posted it in her journal.

The only place I've seen this going on is over at the Something Awful Sycophant Squad, where Rachel's "friends" are busy throwing around every vile insult they can. They've also posted the personal info of other Wisconners, not just Rachel.

Nice crew you hang out with, Rachel.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	Re: Me being less polite than kalmn (Anonymous) 2008-05-30 12:44 am UTC (link)
	Blatant lies. Only a feminist is stupid enough yet savvy enough with university PC bureaucracy to harass an employer on grounds of "sexual harassment" because of making fun of a picture of a person on the internet. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	Re: Me being less polite than kalmn annafdd 2008-05-30 06:59 am UTC (link)
	Still being cutting, witty, deadly funny and crushing the adversary with the might of your dialectic, I see. And still brave! YAWN. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	denhow 2008-05-29 05:03 pm UTC (link)
	For context on the credibility of anything that Rachel Moss claims: http://community.livejournal.com/4chan/1802003.html (Reply to this) (Thread)

	naomikritzer 2008-05-29 11:53 pm UTC (link)
	That gives me a "no such post" error. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	denhow 2008-05-30 12:58 am UTC (link)
	It's Rachel's guide to "LJ html trolling tricks". It's gone now, but Google's cached version is here: http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:LZKR6mZhg1IJ:community.livejournal.com/4chan/1802003.html (Reply to this) (Parent)

	issahla 2008-05-29 11:46 pm UTC (link)
	Sorry you have to deal with this. You worked hard to make the con come together and run well. If there is anything we, as a community, can do to help make this nuisance easier, please post to let us know. (Reply to this)

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