who_knits: Thank you to all of you who have c

mazzmatenth (

mazzmatazz) wrote in

who_knits,
@ 2008-04-24 18:01:00

Thank you to all of you who have commented on my last post. The patterns will not be returning, and I would advise others to take theirs down too - I got this email back from the BBC today:

Thank you for your email, and for your prompt action.

Sales of genuine merchandise are used to fund the BBC, meaning that expensive high-tech programmes like DR WHO can be made. If everyone was allowed to make their own DR WHO merchandise then BBC would get less revenue and series like DR WHO might not get made.

Yours,

Brand Protection team

BBC Worldwide Ltd
London
UK

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(Post a new comment)

averysmallthing
2008-04-24 05:10 pm UTC (link)

That's the response I was expecting, but it still sucks that you got it. :( At least they didn't sugar coat it; "Brand Protection Team," they're protecting their brand, which is what it's all about when they go after free fan projects. Just in case they ever want to market Doctor Who knitting patterns, they feel the need to protect the brand, probably especially in light of the eBayer. Blah.

Hope you didn't come out of this one feeling too badly done by.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	mazzmatazz 2008-04-24 05:12 pm UTC (link)
	I'm more disappointed for everyone else who loved the patterns. I have the patterns, so, yanno. It would just have been nice for other crafty types to share the love. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

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averysmallthing, 2008-04-24 05:21 pm UTC

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lucifers_girl, 2008-04-24 05:56 pm UTC

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pisica, 2008-04-24 06:29 pm UTC

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lucifers_girl, 2008-04-24 07:06 pm UTC

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modemtoad, 2008-04-24 10:46 pm UTC

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tanyad, 2008-05-15 12:07 pm UTC

	paxieamor 2008-04-24 05:38 pm UTC (link)
	...I was going to have a friend of mine try and get a Tenth Doctor doll to David Tennant when she goes to see him in Hamlet... now, I'm not so sure... D= (Reply to this)

	lucifers_girl 2008-04-24 05:56 pm UTC (link)
	Wait, so they're saying we can't make knitting projects because they cause us to not buy the non-existant knitting projects that they sell? (Reply to this) (Thread)

	lainiest 2008-04-24 06:07 pm UTC (link)
	That's what it sounds like. c_c (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

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sherarara, 2008-04-24 06:21 pm UTC

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cyber_istari, 2008-04-24 07:34 pm UTC

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thatlibrarylady, 2008-04-26 12:42 am UTC

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jananaphone, 2008-04-24 06:43 pm UTC

ummmn -

mrjippers, 2008-05-04 01:41 pm UTC

	midknight_starr 2008-04-24 05:57 pm UTC (link)
	sigh Thanks for the info. Well, I'm off to take mine down now :( (Reply to this)

	dao 2008-04-24 06:01 pm UTC (link)
	Complete and total BS! B/c of my scarf a handful of people have become interested in Dr. Who. They NEVER would have found the show on their own. grrrrrrrr (Reply to this)

	midknight_starr 2008-04-24 06:32 pm UTC (link)
	Mazz, did you post this on crafty_tardis also? I have been seeing other patterns there that are not knit or crochet that people have up to share. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	albauk 2008-04-24 07:14 pm UTC (link)
	Well, why take others down until they're told to? It's not exactly like they're planning a mass legal action at all unauthorized patterns. (icon aimed at BBC, not you ;b) (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

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russia_moore, 2008-04-24 11:29 pm UTC

rob_t_firefly
2008-04-24 06:38 pm UTC (link)

New Who only got made at all partly because of the success of Big Finish audios. In fact, many people on the Who team now came from Big Finish Who, including several writers, alien voice Nick Briggs, and yes, David Tennant himself.

The Big Finish audios only got made at all because a group of fans who had been making their own unauthorized free Doctor Who tapes for years in their basements started a company, and pestered the BBC with their nearly unheard-of idea for a business model until they received a proper license.

Therefore, the BBC's success with New Who can be traced directly back to the makers of fan-art in more than one way.

It's really, really sad that they seem to have forgotten that.

(Reply to this)

coaldustcanary
2008-04-24 07:05 pm UTC (link)

If everyone was allowed to make their own DR WHO merchandise then BBC would get less revenue and series like DR WHO might not get made.

Um, what? I'm sorry, but I do not see how they have the legal standing to dictate what you can and can't craft when no profit is being made. Now, I understand totally if you don't want to pursue this any further, but I would be really curious to know what the legal basis for their claim is, if they even have one.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	mazzmatazz 2008-04-24 09:08 pm UTC (link)
	I am tempted to respond and ask how they are going to stop EVERYONE making their own merch. Like a kid who colours a box in blue and sits in it and calls it a tardis. Damn, that kid is totally ripping off the beeb! (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2008-04-24 10:48 pm UTC

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coaldustcanary, 2008-04-25 01:10 am UTC

libby17
2008-04-24 07:19 pm UTC (link)

That's really, really petty of them. I mean, come on are they ever REALLY going to make an Ood doll? No. I think it is crazy, especially to people in the states who can barely find ANY Who merchandise at all. Trust me, I've looked. My only thought is, what are they going to do to all the people who know how to knit and make the stuff anyway? I understand the position when it comes to illegal copies, just not this.

At any point, I'm really sorry. Your patterns were awesome and I wish they would not have "knit" picked.

(Reply to this)

airawyn
2008-04-24 07:38 pm UTC (link)

Wow. There's a reason that there's "fair use" provisions in copyright law. I'm pretty sure that making and sharing knitting patterns for personal use falls under fair use. (Selling the items is a slightly more iffy area.)

I know being threatened with legal action is scary, but I suggest you fight this. The Organization for Transformative Works can probably help. That OTW was founded to protect fan works and they're putting together a legal team for that purpose.

The "Brand Protection Team" is only one small section of the BBC. There are other people involved in Doctor Who that are much more fan-sympathetic. If this is challenged, I'm pretty sure they'll back down quickly.

I don't think we should stop sharing patterns. We could lock the posts, as someone else suggested. If LJ has an issue with it, I have webspace on a fandom-friendly hosting company and I'll set up a site for sharing fandom patterns.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	jinxsa 2008-04-24 08:14 pm UTC (link)
	I wonder how making an Ood doll is any different than making Rose wrist warmers, or developing a sweater just like the one you saw in the mall. Apparently David Tennant himself gets boxes of Who related knitting every Christmas from an anon. fan every Christmas. This can't be a shock to the BBC that there is crafting out there. (Reply to this) (Parent)

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mazzmatazz, 2008-04-24 09:06 pm UTC

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airawyn, 2008-04-24 09:21 pm UTC

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penwiper337, 2008-04-24 10:49 pm UTC

	jinxsa 2008-04-24 08:15 pm UTC (link)
	Also to add this is why google has a "cached" button next to all it's links. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	darth_tigger 2008-04-24 09:19 pm UTC (link)
	That's a terrible idea. You certainly won't get me googling for adipose knitting pattern, clicking on cached and copying and pasting anything into a Word document. Nor will you get me doing the same for Face of Boe knitting pattern or Ood knitting pattern. That would just be wrong wouldn't it. So I certainly won't be thanking you for that idea ;-) (Reply to this) (Parent)

	deerfold 2008-04-24 09:48 pm UTC (link)
	Others have advised you on the legal matters. I'm disgusted by the language: "might not get made"? get made? what sort of english is that (for an official response from the BBC)? (Reply to this)

	lucifers_girl 2008-04-24 10:18 pm UTC (link)
	New question: How does the Dr. Who scarf website not get shut down? (Reply to this) (Thread)

	dao 2008-04-24 10:48 pm UTC (link)
	Too funny. As soon as I read this post this morning I ran to the Dr. Who scarf site to make sure it was still up. I then copied ANYTHING I thought I might use later on. I really really hope that this is all a misunderstanding. Thinking about it (after calming down) I don't see how they would have a legal leg to stand on. (Reply to this) (Parent)

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russia_moore, 2008-04-24 11:34 pm UTC

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russia_moore, 2008-04-24 11:52 pm UTC

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paxieamor, 2008-04-25 12:22 am UTC

cleothyla
2008-04-24 11:24 pm UTC (link)

This sounds something like the JKR/Fan lawsuit. As long as it wasn't being sold on the internet, that was fine. But as soon as he started publishing a book and selling it as CANON HP, I think she had every right to sue him as it would hurt her publishing her book, on the world of HP. But she isn't going after fans who make the costumes or scarves and sell them, since you cannot copyright a color scheme unless it is very distinctive. The BBC is going to have to realize that you cannot monitor all the fan-art and craft out there and that it does draw people to the show.

Just my tuppence worth.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

the_magician
2008-05-06 10:10 am UTC (link)

The wrong place for this I know ... but how many copies of her book do you think wouldn't get sold because of a small run of what she described as a shoddy book? How many Harry Potter fans out there will say "oh, JK said she's going to write an encyclopedia, but I'd buy this lexicon instead (which is available for free on the Internet) and won't buy her book". Roughly (I estimate) zero.

How many people would buy an official BBC DrWho knitting pattern? How many won't because there are patterns on the web? More importantly (for the BBC), how much money will a knitting pattern company pay for the rights to the DrWho knitting patterns? If no one is going to pay for the rights, then there is no financial loss to the BBC and they should just leave us to share fan produced knitting patterns (as people will anyway).

Of course if someone wants to post up knitting patterns of "blobby creatures", "police phone boxes", "a head with tentacles" etc. then there's no copyright problems as far as I can see (as long as Dr.Who or specific character names aren't mentioned) :-)

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	rjdaae 2008-04-25 01:15 am UTC (link)
	Alternately, you could change the names of all your patterns to be more copyright ambiguous, like the people who build 'life-sized robots' (which just happen to have plungers and eye-stalks). Surely the BBC haven't copyrighted the words 'tentacle-mouthed creature' or 'talking skin creature'... (Reply to this) (Thread)

	tgjerusalem 2008-05-09 03:41 pm UTC (link)
	The Ood could become "Cthulu with a juice box"... (Reply to this) (Parent)

knitchick1979
2008-04-25 02:51 am UTC (link)

*rolls eyes*

I think they're biting themselves in the arse. I mean, sheesh, when people ask about my insanely long scarf it's just the opening for me to go "well you should watch Doctor Who" and babble endlessly til I scare them away...or make a new fan. :D

Likewise, I've piqued a few people's interest in watching the show whilst showing off my knitted Dalek and walking around pretending to be Captain Jack Harkness :D Which is MORE PEOPLE WATCHING. Gee, what a concept!

Maybe we should start a targeted letter campaign, going, "Well if you're gonna say people should not be making their own Doctor Who merchandise then will you please make this and this and this and this and this" and a creative person could easily fill like ten pages with product they'd like to see, and then maybe they'll either A, make the cool stuff or B, go "okay we're idiots, keep crafting and leave us alone already" ;)

(Reply to this)

acertainflower
2008-04-25 03:12 am UTC (link)

Not for nothing, but isn't most of the BBC's funding from television licensing? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC#Revenue

They make billions of pounds every year just on that!

And isn't most of a TV show's success based on viewer ratings (size of the audience), advertisement, and revenue from the sale of DVDs (which is actually a very small amount compared to the former two things mentioned)?

This is just sillyness! Keep the patterns up! Clearly, the BBC Brand Protectors know very little about fair use.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	the_magician 2008-05-06 10:10 am UTC (link)
	Which bit of "Fair Use" do you think this comes under? I'm curious! Edited at 2008-05-06 12:07 pm UTC (Reply to this) (Parent)

Billions? I think you exagerate for effect :-) -

the_magician, 2008-05-06 11:13 am UTC

Re: Billions? I think you exagerate for effect :-) -

acertainflower, 2008-05-06 01:56 pm UTC

Re: Billions? I think you exagerate for effect :-) -

acertainflower, 2008-05-06 02:02 pm UTC

Re: Billions? I think you exagerate for effect :-) -

the_magician, 2008-05-06 02:10 pm UTC

	sorchar 2008-04-25 03:43 am UTC (link)
	Wha? I'll bloody well make whatever Dr. Who merch I want. Are they really going to try to stop people making crafts in their own homes? I'd love to see the backlash if that email got any media coverage. It's not like they're actually SELLING these things, either. They can suck my big red size S crochet hook. (Reply to this)

ventruechick
2008-04-25 05:44 am UTC (link)

Do they understand that you are not selling them? Sounds like they totally missed the MacGuffin there. I'd say repost the patterns with a big, bolded notice that says THIS IS NOT AN OFFICIAL PATTERN AND IT IS NOT FOR SALE. IF YOU WANT TO PURCHASE AN OFFICIAL PATTERN, YOU MUST MAKE YOUR REQUEST DIRECTLY TO THE BBC - SEND NO LESS THAN 20 EMAILS EVERY HOUR TO [BBC's EMAIL] AND LEAVE LOTS OF MESSAGES AT [BBC OFFICE NUMBER]. XD That should teach them.

But yeah, anyone in television who says their production moneys come from merchandise is batshit crazy. Sponsors buy air time and/or spots within the show. Combination of viewer ratings and sponsors' profits fund the show. Merch/dvd sales are just the icing on the cake. (And lemme tell ya, if sales were that bad that they were relying on the merch/dvd sales to *break even* let alone profit, then BBC would never have picked up Series 2.) >:P Stupid liars and/or idiots. They suck.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

ias
2008-05-06 10:34 am UTC (link)

This is the BBC. It does not have advertising so no sponsors. There are no slots to buy within the show because there are no adverts. When the original Who was on the rules on noadvertising were so strict that in contemporary dramas all products that could be seen on screen had to be turned and palced in such a way so that the viewer could no read the brand label.

The Beeb is funded by the Licence Fee payable by every owner of a tv in the UK, the sales of programmes abroad and merchandise.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

penwiper337
2008-04-27 12:20 am UTC (link)

I think I've gotten a little more light on why the BBC has clamped down hard on Adipose patterns. It's not just the person who was selling you pattern on eBay. It was also this:

Clueless person mass-knitting and selling Adipose on eBay

(What's really embarrassing is how, well, not-Adipose-y they are.)

And then a website promoted the sales.

No wonder the BBC panicked a bit. It's people like this who ruin things for other crafters. >:(

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	mazzmatazz 2008-04-27 10:03 am UTC (link)
	This is going to make it tricky to get round them now, isn't it? I don't know what to do really, other than go underground with it and host it elsewhere in secret. And I'd rather not do that in case I got caught. Maybe someone else could accidentally host the files... (Reply to this) (Parent)

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lennypops, 2008-04-28 06:44 pm UTC

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mazzmatazz, 2008-04-28 10:16 pm UTC

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lennypops, 2008-04-29 06:34 am UTC

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penwiper337, 2008-04-28 10:33 pm UTC

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lennypops, 2008-04-29 06:39 am UTC

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spectralbovine, 2008-05-05 12:59 am UTC

annoyedwabbit
2008-04-28 05:12 am UTC (link)

I'm really sorry this is happening to you. The BBC's response also doesn't make any sense to me, particularly the "If everyone was allowed to make their own DR WHO merchandise then BBC would get less revenue and series like DR WHO might not get made." bit. I would think (as someone in now way associated with the legal profession in any way) that fans making their own stuff and not profiting off it falls under fair use. :(

(Reply to this)

	dr WHO? mrjippers 2008-05-04 01:39 pm UTC (link)
	CAN THEY SAY THAT?-"EXPENSIVE AND HI-TECH LIKE DR WHO" -I mean can they really say that with a straight face ?and a stiff upper something.......jimminy.!! (Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: dr WHO?

the_magician
2008-05-06 12:09 pm UTC (link)

Have you seen the recent episodes? There's a ton of CGI going into some of them (in fact RTD was chortling about the money they saved on the smoke in the recent episodes as it turned out the physical effects guys and their smoke machines did a good enough job that some of the CGI budget didn't have to be spent!)

And they seem to have a lot of flashing lights :-) and little PDAs that can show "Blow up the world Yes/No" screens!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: dr WHO? -

mrjippers, 2008-05-06 11:13 pm UTC

Re: dr WHO? -

the_magician, 2008-05-07 12:24 am UTC

	JUST SAYIN.... mrjippers 2008-05-04 01:50 pm UTC (link)
	Didnt we beat those guys up one time for tellin us what to do over here ? oh yeah 1776. ....ENGLAND?-dont make us get up. (Reply to this)

sophia_helix
2008-05-05 03:32 am UTC (link)

I just surfed over here from

dw_cosplay community, and I can tell you with reasonable certainty that in the US, at least, this is absolutely not copyright violation. They only have (very questionable) trademark rights over the "look" of these items of clothing, not actual copyrighted patterns, and even then I'm pretty damn sure you're falling under fair use. I'm only a law student, not a lawyer (and this isn't real legal advice!), but my focus is in IP and I could cite you a few cases where companies have ripped off each other's styles, actually sold the resulting goods, and it still wasn't considered infringement. However, the fact that you're not even selling the patterns really pushes it over to fair use.

The problem you're encountering, I think, is that British IP law is far more protective. I'd still be willing to bet that it doesn't cover creating instructions on how to reproduce a style. I also don't know what patterns you actually had up, but the Face of Boe one, in particular... I don't even know where they're getting this from, seriously. The Four scarf is pretty iconic by now, but even that is such a simple item it's hard to imagine them getting exclusive rights over it, and the rest of it just would not fall under trademark as I know it.

Bottom line: as long as you're not selling, this would be totally fine in the US, though I can't tell you about British law. The second thing is that I have a very hard time imagining they'd actually prosecute you over this, especially if you had something to counter their letter with -- which is why I agree with the suggestion to talk to the OTW people (I don't have time to be involved with the project, but I know the people who are).

Of course, it may seem like it's more trouble than it's worth, but the scare tactics here are really annoying me, grrr.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

the_magician
2008-05-06 10:22 am UTC (link)

What about trademarks?

The Blue Police Box as used in Doctor Who is a trademark of the BBC.
Trademarks 2104259 and 1068700.

If you wanted to post up instructions for how to create a "phone box, similar to a police phone box" you'd probably (I'm guessing) be ok, but if you offered "Plans for making a Tardis(tm)" I'd imagine you'd be in more trouble.

As you say, UK IP law is a lot stricter.

So I'd guess that as long as you didn't use the words DrWho or any of the character names you'd probably be ok ...

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	cdave 2008-05-06 08:35 am UTC (link)
	How rubbish! (Reply to this)

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