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    The White Wolf LiveJournal Community - Behind the Lines: Bending the Rules (#29)
    Much wailing and gnashing of teeth.
    [info]whitewolf_lj
    [info]eskemp
    Behind the Lines: Bending the Rules (#29)

    The question came up recently of whether or not hunters, specifically capital-H-hunters-that-aren't-actually-capitalized, count as having a major template or not. Is being the star of a major game line enough to give you immunity to the Embrace? 

    And the answer is "no." With some caveats, of course; you're probably going to be too altered to take on a major supernatural template if you've got some Cheiron Group implants making you rather less than human these days. There are probably no Lucifuge werewolves running around, with two different types of empowering bloodine. But essentially, the rule of not crossing the streams, of not hybridizing major elements of the World of Darkness — that's a rule, but it's not a law.

    Similarly, you may have noted that the "5 x 5" concept really isn't a rule so much as it might have seemed. I've talked before, if perhaps not here, about how originally Werewolf: The Forsaken was designed with the idea that there'd be the usual five auspices and seven tribes. The tribe number was cut down to five not because five was the rule, but because two of them were a little redundant. Imagine splitting the Bone Shadows into two tribes (a death-tribe and a mystics-tribe) and doing the same with the Iron Masters (or was it the Hunters in Darkness?). We got stronger tribes by making them less one-note. But 5 x 5 turned out to be a good model, allowing us to hit enough options that you had a real choice but not so many that the choices started getting watered down. It was almost a rule.

    So we started to break it, of course.

    Now here's the thing. Back in the old days, we put the Golden Rule in every rulebook we put out, and we stressed the hell out of it. If you came on board post-Vampire: The Requiem and haven't seen it, the Golden Rule was essentially "Break and change any rule you want. Your judgment trumps all." We stopped doing that with the release of the Storytelling system because that had gotten to be a bit of a crutch. It wasn't an excuse for putting out shoddy rules that we liked and expecting people to come up with something better. We wanted to do rules that made sense the first time, and we didn't want the Golden Rule to be some kind of safety net. We wanted the rules to work the first time.

    But the thing is that we still believed in the Golden Rule. We still wanted people to follow it, we just didn't want to emphasize it. Ultimately, gaming groups are such a deeply individualized mix of interpersonal chemistry and preferences that there's no way we can write from a perspective of knowing your group. Therefore, we have to write from the perspective of being the most useful to the greatest number of groups. That assumes a certain median. You don't add on multiple templates because it involves a lot of extra work that might not be worth it, for instance. Now, it might be worth it — but unless we're sure that everyone in the group is for the idea and willing to do the extra work that keeps the multi-template character from dominating play, it's better to err on the conservative side. That doesn't mean we can't break those rules from time to time, though.

    One of the benefits of the limited-series model is that it's gotten us feeling rather more experimental. There are rules that Changeling broke that none of its predecessors did, and in turn Hunter went places Changeling didn't, and Geist is definitely going to mess with people's expectations even further. We also throw in experiments of character design in smaller books, too: consider Second Sight, Skinchangers, Changing Breeds, Innocents. (There's another one on the way, too.) What really has encouraged us, though, is when the experiments work. Changeling discarded the 5 x 5 model and went with 4 x 6, with the 6 having a separate subsection of choices to add on. That was received very well. Promethean really explored the idea of a finite chronicle. Hunter went new places with Tactics (building on an experiment from Werewolf) and Willpower.

    It's to the point, basically, that nothing is sacred. Or rather, I should say that no rule is absolutely sacred. The genre is still sacred. You won't see X-Men-style mutants who are incredibly beautiful, powerful people with incredible powers and negligible drawbacks pontificating about how they have it so bad. You won't see eccentrically-dressed people popping out of phone-booth-sized time machines. You won't see rules for cartoon characters come to life, fun though Roger Rabbit and Loony Leo may be. The World of Darkness needs to fit within a certain paramater of genre faithfulness and plausibility, and we're pretty strong custodians of that (at least in print).

    But if we can come up with a good enough reason to change a tradition of character creation or dice-rolling, we will. It has to be a good reason, mind; I don't think there are any good reasons to use dice other than d10s at this point, or to scrap the Physical/Social/Mental triptych. Some things are proven to really beat the alternative where the Storytelling System is concerned. But if we understand the rules, why they were created and what they're trying to achieve — and I like to think we do — we can take them apart and do something else with them.

    You should, too. That's part of why we're trying to achieve more transparency in how the Storytelling system works here and in other places: because these are the kind of decisions everyone should be free to make, but they also work best if people are sufficiently informed about the principles in place that they can change things with a full understanding of what the results are likely to be.

    So if you have any particular questions about rules you'd like to change, about the whys and the wherefores, why not post them? If you want to know why we picked 8 as the fixed difficulty, why there are the inborn and chosen axes of splats — let us know, and I'll take you behind the scenes as best I can. Messing with the rules is fun, and I'd be happy to help you with it.

    Comments
    jadasc From: [info]jadasc Date: September 3rd, 2008 03:44 pm (UTC) (Link)

    Merits and Backgrounds

    Here's one that's puzzled me. In the Storyteller system, "backgrounds" were typically scalable (from 1-5), dealt with setting specific elements, and were standard -- you had a certain number of points to spend on them, not counting freebies. "Merits" had flat costs and were optional. Why the choice to blend these two elements in the Storytelling system?

    While you're at it -- why the switch away from "freebies," anyway? The "extra XP" method of customizing has led to more attempts to massage the math and treat the Storytelling system like a points-based one, like GURPS or HERO, and it doesn't always stand up to such.
    amokk From: [info]amokk Date: September 3rd, 2008 04:53 pm (UTC) (Link)

    Re: Merits and Backgrounds

    Personally, I prefer the "no freebies" because it removes a (really unnecessary) step, and helps power down the characters in general. I've come across to many people who thought a dice pool of 8 was average, and really wanted 9 or 10 to be able to "function as a realistic character".

    People "massaged the math" with freebies, too. In fact, I've seen less of it with the new system than with freebies (probably because raising anything really high is pretty expensive at the beginning of a game).

    But, that's personal experience. :)
    From: [info]eskemp Date: September 3rd, 2008 05:00 pm (UTC) (Link)

    Re: Merits and Backgrounds

    Those two were both the same reasoning, I figure: "fewer steps." Note that Merits now cover what would be the "spend Background points" and the "spend freebie points" stages, as well as the "pick Merits stage." All of that's now boiled down to one particular stage, which vastly streamlines things. It also adds more continuity in the sense that the Physical/Social/Mental approach applies to Attributes, Skills and now Merits/what were once Backgrounds.
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    mordicai From: [info]mordicai Date: September 3rd, 2008 03:44 pm (UTC) (Link)
    Geist? I missed scuttlebutt, didn't I?
    jadasc From: [info]jadasc Date: September 3rd, 2008 03:59 pm (UTC) (Link)
    Back of the HtV core. There's a logo and a few skulls. Speculate away. :)
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    dmoonfire From: [info]dmoonfire Date: September 3rd, 2008 04:00 pm (UTC) (Link)
    Hrm, interesting and silly questions.

    1. Why did you go with perfects in Exalted? And why are they so easy to get? I know that Solars get a lot of them and most of the others don't, but the perfects are relatively cheap (i.e. < less motes than you get stunting every turn). And you can get them as a starting character. It is really easy to get into a perfect verses perfect fights, specially when you are in a group that stunts constantly.

    2. Related to that, why have Exalted power levels be so different? A Solar verses mortals is, in most cases, not a challenge. And a starting Solar can easily have dice pools in the 10's and 20's (admittedly not for a long time) when mortals struggle to get 10. And with the canon populations, it is really easy for a Solar basically to take over a large hunk of the Creation simply because they don't have competition. 10k DB in the Realm (20k total) doesn't seem like a lot, but 150 Solars arranged in 5 circles means you have a significant amount of the Solar population in a single group; and most things really can't take on a full circle of Solars.

    3. Why is the Resources dot so exponential? It is basically $10, $20, $50, $5000, $50000, $50M. Right at the 3 verses 4 dot part, it seems to really break down.

    Just questions I've always was curious about. Mostly because I've struggled to keep a continual challenge level for my players (more so in the 5+ year campaign) and don't like just handing them something they will automatically beat; its hard to run that escalation.
    mordicai From: [info]mordicai Date: September 3rd, 2008 04:39 pm (UTC) (Link)
    Why not let Solars take over big chunks? Isn't that what they do sometimes?
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    From: [info]eskemp Date: September 3rd, 2008 05:04 pm (UTC) (Link)
    1, 2: I should throw out the caveat that I don't know as much about Exalted. I will see if I can't get John to talk about some of this stuff, but honestly I wasn't as involved with the starting Exalted creation back in the days of Geoff Grabowski talking really quickly and emphatically about how cool this was all going to be.

    3: I believe it wasn't about money so much as social strata: "penniless," "broke," "middle-class," "upper-middle class," "wealthy," "filthy rich." Narrative abstractions, essentially, figuring out where your character fits in the scheme of things. It gets to "filthy rich" pretty quickly, but having Resources be a 1-10 Trait probably wouldn't have been any more elegant.
    wyrm_chris From: [info]wyrm_chris Date: September 3rd, 2008 04:17 pm (UTC) (Link)
    Spirit systems - what's your reasoning for spirits and ghosts working the way they do in the system? Why the Power/Finesse/Resistance split and no skills? Why not simply using the same attributes and skills as other characters?
    From: [info]eskemp Date: September 3rd, 2008 05:07 pm (UTC) (Link)
    Streamlining ghosts and spirits makes them quicker and easier to run, and it also emphasizes that they're really pretty much "the Other." They don't really interact with the world the way we do, and having a different mechanical interface helps emphasize that. I imagine you can also blame the oWoD spirit rules for this; shifting from Rage and Gnosis to three catch-all Power/Finesse/Resistance traits reflects the overall system well, while holding onto what made spirits pretty easy to handle in the old system.
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    wyrm_chris From: [info]wyrm_chris Date: September 3rd, 2008 04:22 pm (UTC) (Link)
    You should, too. That's part of why we're trying to achieve more transparency in how the Storytelling system works here and in other places: because these are the kind of decisions everyone should be free to make, but they also work best if people are sufficiently informed about the principles in place that they can change things with a full understanding of what the results are likely to be.

    You know what I'd really appreciate, Ethan? The same kind of transparency when it comes to the setting. I want the books to spell out to me why the setting works the way it does, how I can use setting detail X in my game, what kind of stories to tell with setting detail Y, etc. I want the books to tell me the logic behind, say, the Spirit-Ridden or the Supernal Realms or the Principle, etc..
    mordicai From: [info]mordicai Date: September 3rd, 2008 04:41 pm (UTC) (Link)
    Oh god no. So fanboys can act like things are "right" again? Like they did with "Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand" & stuff? Or like the years when Mage reigned & all the other titles were the "static" magic users? Blech, no.
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    amokk From: [info]amokk Date: September 3rd, 2008 04:57 pm (UTC) (Link)
    And see, personally, I'd rather come up with those reasons myself, and I don't really care what WW does with their "personal" game that they just happen to be publishing and I happen to be buying. Them telling me "The reason of the Supernal Realms is X, and it works because of Y, and you can use it to do B, C and Z" just feels, to me, too much like old-style metaplot. It's a lot easier to tailor-make my own games when I don't have to keep contradicting the books and telling players, "I don't care, it doesn't work that way in my game, put the book down already and play."
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    From: [info]eskemp Date: September 3rd, 2008 05:11 pm (UTC) (Link)
    In the books? Probably wouldn't happen, at least most of the time. We do talk a little about that, but full transparency would kill the mystique of the setting, and to be honest, we do well selling mystique. We like to get the emotional twist out of some of the things we do, and if every new "Holy crap, I can't believe ghouls are like that!" is followed with an "and here's why," I think the emotions inspired by the books would be lessened.

    That is kind of the realm of something like a Chronicler's Guide, though, as I recall. In a place like that you can really open things up and lay out the details, but in general I think we're better off trying to keep a bit of a feeling of immersion in the books. I think it's how we got our success in the first place.
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    dmoonfire From: [info]dmoonfire Date: September 3rd, 2008 07:03 pm (UTC) (Link)
    That is something I occasionally wanted, cosmology or "guidelines for big things". Or at least an idea of how things work from the ground up so I can fake it easier as a Storyteller (and throw something at the party they don't know from a book).
    eolirin From: [info]eolirin Date: September 3rd, 2008 04:49 pm (UTC) (Link)
    I'm pretty sure you've already dedicated a post to explaining the math behind the target number 8 thing :)
    mordicai From: [info]mordicai Date: September 3rd, 2008 05:00 pm (UTC) (Link)
    WHERE! I want clear math-- I'm sure it is somewhere, but I don't have a head for numbers, & I really like messing with extra successes, & 8 again, & rote, & stuff like that. I don't really grasp the mathematical implications though, so I'm wary about giving those abilities to players. Yeah?
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    amokk From: [info]amokk Date: September 3rd, 2008 04:58 pm (UTC) (Link)
    I think the "toolbox design" of the overall game system has led to a lot more of the "Golden Rule" not needing to be explicitly stated.
    From: [info]eskemp Date: September 3rd, 2008 05:12 pm (UTC) (Link)
    Probably true. It still bears repeating every once in a while, though, I think.
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    coridan From: [info]coridan Date: September 3rd, 2008 06:42 pm (UTC) (Link)
    A side note about eccentric time travelers in police boxes (NOT phone booths!)

    Eccleston's 9th Doctor and at certain points Tennant's 10th, as well as at certain points the classic Doctors were involved in some very dark and supernatural seeming stories (Unquiet Dead, The Doctor Dances, etc.) that WoD STs could do themselves a large favor by investigating and borrowing from. Dr Who is a show about monsters, and therein it shares a good deal of common ground with NWoD. However, I will agree that the mid to late 80s tom foolery of the show contradicts the NWoD feel, of course, as well as the lighter/more comedic moments of the revival show.

    CB
    From: [info]eskemp Date: September 3rd, 2008 06:57 pm (UTC) (Link)
    "Phone booth-*sized*." Settle down. It might be a grandfather clock instead, you know (OH JEEZ I JUST OUTNERDED YOU!).

    The whole "no time travelers in WoD" thing aside, you're right. Certainly they've managed some exceptionally creepy stories that could provide some insight: less in the sense of borrowing specific boogeymen, and more in the sense of "Okay, these are neat tricks of story revelation, building suspense, and so on." It's of variable success, though. You pretty much would want to put together a list of what's hot and not — "by all means watch Blink, by all means ignore anything with farty aliens," etc.
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    mrcorvin From: [info]mrcorvin Date: September 3rd, 2008 07:53 pm (UTC) (Link)
    Maybe I missed it...

    Being a Mage doesn't make you immune to the Hedge...if you accidently wandered in...

    Being a Mage doesn't make you immune to Embrace...

    With that logic, is Mage not a Template?

    See, I see Hunter as a Template and not a template. What kind a Template? These are Mortals that fight The Darkness but generally do not have Woogie Shit Powers.

    Am I missing something?
    From: [info]eskemp Date: September 3rd, 2008 07:59 pm (UTC) (Link)
    Mage is a template in the sense that you lose your mage template when Embraced (or dragged off to Faerie to become a changeling), and it precludes the First Change. It precludes template-stacking in the "you can't have two" fashion, though in a different way than a werewolf or Created would.
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    sixswordsamurai From: [info]sixswordsamurai Date: September 3rd, 2008 08:20 pm (UTC) (Link)
    >geekrage!<

    Usually I'm a pretty rabid supporter of White wolf, but frankly the one thing I'm really really sick of? people coming down from the Ivory tower to tell me what the tone of my games should be. I'm marginally sick of it due to the fact that people use it as a bludgeon instead of a guideline and make good ideas into annoying ideas because they're trying to make the tone "scary".

    People need to realize that horror is incredibly personal and that you saying "OMGYOURCHARACTERISOUTOFTONE" because my character is X cool thing instead of a mook is a little frustrating (to say the least)

    What you (editorial you, not you [info]eskemp) might think is scary might be absolutely boring to me, and Instead of attempting to say "okay, let's find out what's scary together" someone bangs on about how developer X said that "Vampire is supposed to be scary, so limit X options" *oi*

    This is a call to all developer types within the company. Please for the love of Jesus and Christ Crutons, please stop banging on about what you feel the "Tone" should be. I paid good money, and read your opinion of the tone.

    This used to happen in VtM as well, some developer would show up and be like "OMG VAMPIRE IS NOT ABOUT SUPERHEROES WITH FANGS" and I'd get just as pissed then.

    Here's the thing, once I purchase the product from you, I don't need a refresher on what you believe the tone is. If I want to play Vampiric superheroes with capes who use weird ninja magic, that's all good, because I've already purchased the product and choose to go my own way with it.

    and while I respect, nay APPLAUD, the desire to interact with fans, your word is sometimes taken as Dogma(yes, capital D), and needs to be gentle and sparing lest the rabid fans flow from the walls screaming about how I'm doing it wrong.

    While the golden rule has been scaled back a bit, it should not make way for dogmatic speeches from on high about tone of X game. If I want to play Requiem as a John Woo Flick, I should be given the green light, If I want to play Werewolf as "Furries on Ice" I already purchased the product.

    I love you guys work, I really do, please stop getting in the way of me playing how I want.

    >/geekrage!

    Sorry about that. I hope everything I said came across as fairly reasonable. It is a major sticking point with me and one of the main reasons I haven't embraced the new line of NWoD more.
    sim_james From: [info]sim_james Date: September 3rd, 2008 10:10 pm (UTC) (Link)
    Actually, this strikes me as a massive overreaction. "We're not going to publish options about superheroes with fangs" is totally different from "You shouldn't play games about superheroes with fangs!"

    It's perfectly valid to avoid putting out new stuff that detracts from established books. That doesn't mean that you can't do what you like if your group thinks that it's fun - pretty sure that the WW Guys make that point over and over! Such as the sly hints about whacked and "non-canon" games that get run over there.

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    From: (Anonymous) Date: September 3rd, 2008 10:27 pm (UTC) (Link)

    Merit cost

    One of the rules that requires the most clarification is the Merit cost. Why did you decide to make subsequent merit dots so expensive? It's especially confusing for (**,****) merits.

    Does the fact that merit dots are less expensive in MET indicate that you guys had a change of heart on this rule?
    From: [info]eskemp Date: September 4th, 2008 01:03 am (UTC) (Link)

    Re: Merit cost

    Basically, it's to make a "two-dot Merit" mean approximately the same amount of benefit and cost. If there are two-dot Merits that cost a lot and two-dot Merits that cost less, then "two dots" becomes a very arbitrary measuring stick for the value of something. In this case, if everyone's spending the same amount of points to get a two-dot Merit, then it should mean the same amount of value whether there's prerequisites or not.

    There are some sneaky bugs that can get into the system if a particular Merit doesn't seem to be working out quite at the appropriate level, but overall it's to ensure a certain continuity of rules and the dot-system of values.
    knightofpholtus From: [info]knightofpholtus Date: September 4th, 2008 01:40 am (UTC) (Link)

    Cause you asked

    " Similarly, you may have noted that the "5 x 5" concept really isn't a rule so much as it might have seemed."

    I think of Faith from Buffy ever time I hear 5x5 - know what I mean B ?

    "One of the benefits of the limited-series model is that it's gotten us feeling rather more experimental."

    Which is GREAT! Since I think that it allows you to be more creative. Changeling and Hunter are my Favorite of the nWoD, (okay truth be told they are the only ones of the new game that I like)

    " The genre is still sacred. You won't see X-Men-style mutants who are incredibly beautiful, powerful people with incredible powers and negligible drawbacks pontificating about how they have it so bad."

    Nothing wrong with the X-Men, those titles can be pretty dark at time. But I'm glad that they aren't coming to the WoD

    "So if you have any particular questions about rules you'd like to change, about the whys and the wherefores, why not post them?"

    " If you want to know why we picked 8 as the fixed difficulty, why there are the inborn and chosen axes of splats — let us know, and I'll take you behind the scenes as best I can."

    Okay - can you explain the reasons behind the 9 again and 8 again rule? Why those as oppose to just increasing the pools?

    Also Second Sight question, what was the reason behind static set Merits as oppose to 1-5 scaled abilities?

    Design concept question, Why the grab bag of words? Gnosis gets dropped as a Werewolf term (replaced with Essence) and then shows up in Mage ?

    If there was stuff you would have designed differently for V:tR what would it be? (being the first I'm sure it was the hardest).

    What do you look at when deciding what would work for Larp vs. TT (noting some of the Discipline shift in Requiem vs V:TR) ?


    From: [info]eskemp Date: September 4th, 2008 03:09 am (UTC) (Link)

    Re: Cause you asked

    "Okay - can you explain the reasons behind the 9 again and 8 again rule? Why those as oppose to just increasing the pools?"

    It's an elaboration on the 10-again rule, essentially. I know, "duh," but the point is to expand the 10-again rule and show you why it's there and what can be done with it. It also makes mechanics a little different, allowing for different finesses than having everything effectively act like an equipment bonus.

    "Also Second Sight question, what was the reason behind static set Merits as oppose to 1-5 scaled abilities?"

    I wasn't there for that one, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was an example of what you can do with Merits, rather than going for the more predictable 1-5 scales.

    "Design concept question, Why the grab bag of words? Gnosis gets dropped as a Werewolf term (replaced with Essence) and then shows up in Mage ?"

    In that particular case, it's because the definition of "gnosis" makes it a much better Mage term involving secret wisdom than a Werewolf term representing spiritual juice. I'd argue that the oWoD was much more grab-bag in how it applied its vocabulary.

    "If there was stuff you would have designed differently for V:tR what would it be? (being the first I'm sure it was the hardest)."

    Um, that's a big question. I think Requiem's done very well, actually. Off the top of my head, I think I'd muck around with would be jamming a bit more built-in cultural vampire concepts into the core vampire clans and Disciplines, but that's really a personal thing.

    "What do you look at when deciding what would work for Larp vs. TT (noting some of the Discipline shift in Requiem vs V:TR) ?"

    That's a better question for Eddy. As the MET people will probably tell you, a lot of what we do is primarily based on tabletop experience; what works for one is tricky for the other.
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    mythicfox From: [info]mythicfox Date: September 4th, 2008 04:23 am (UTC) (Link)
    Actually, I've got a rules question... not as much a mechanical rules question, but a question of rules like the 5 x 5 splats one...

    It's pretty clear there was a rule established about severely cutting back on allowing supernatural powers that give someone extra actions (particularly in combat). I think -- but I could be wrong -- that the only supernatural power to explicitly give someone multiple actions per turn is in Belial's Brood. It's not one I'd personally want to change, but I'm curious about the thinking behind it. Was it the most obvious reason of balance problems (all Werewolves spend a bunch of Rage for extra actions vs. a Vampire with the right set of powers spends a Blood Point for extra actions vs. a Mage with a more specific set of powers makes a roll and maybe gets extra actions, etc.) or was there more at work there?
    From: [info]eskemp Date: September 5th, 2008 06:36 pm (UTC) (Link)
    Extra actions are a can of worms, mechanically. It's not even about balance (though that's there as well), it's the problem that every time one guy gets an extra action it's essentially saying "you miss a turn" to everyone else around the table. You have the same trouble with summoning powers that essentially provide an ally that gives you extra turns at the table.

    They do kick off an arms race, as not only are the people with extra actions more efficient in combat, they're having more time to do their thing during the game. It was something we figured we could avoid in order to make the game healthier this time around.

    Speaking as a Storyteller, I do like extra actions in some cases: when you have the whole group fighting against one big monster that's supposed to be the equal of a whole pack. (Yes, my Werewolf history is showing.) If it can soak damage and dish out beatings as if it were many enemies rolled into one, you get a more interesting combat scene. But I also feel guilty telling people "This is a mechanic that only Storytellers should use," as it makes players a little jealous, so they're kind of off the books as a rule.
    From: [info]mr_innes Date: September 6th, 2008 08:09 am (UTC) (Link)
    In V:tR, the Acolytes, Dragons, and Sanctified all get access to special Disciplines during character creation; however, the Carthians and the Invictus explicitly do not get to use their convent advantages during character creation. Why are the convents split like that?
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