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    The White Wolf LiveJournal Community - Rich's Ravioli #11
    Much wailing and gnashing of teeth.
    wwricht
    [info]whitewolf_lj
    [info]wwricht
    Rich's Ravioli #11
    Hi Everybody!

    What is Metaplot? Well that's a good question, because it seems like everybody has their own definitions of it. Even internally at WW it took us a while to all agree. Our official definition and therefore the one that informs all of our choices to avoid it and is what we mean when we mention the term, is: Moving the storyline forward past the assumed Day Zero implicit in the core rulebooks. Day Zero is the day that the corebooks end on, everything before Day Zero is history or backstory, anything after is Metaplot. If the third book in the line after the core starts discussing an event that occurred after the corebook, then it is creating Metaplot.

    Why is that so bad? White Wolf did pretty darn well with spinning an ongoing story that grew with each release after all. Pretty cool stories indeed, and fun to follow and collect in order to read them all. Seems like a version of a collectible card game or a serialized story like in comics- certainly a great business model to keep readers coming back for more. Unfortunately, all those stories soon reach a critical mass where the complexity is only appealing to those who have followed the stories from a less convoluted, earlier time and are very daunting for a newcomer to understand and get started with. Additionally you get a situation where even someone who has generally followed the Metaplot misses a few books- maybe they had tuition to pay or needed to spend time out of the country- and then can't find their way back into the story- they've lost the thread, if you will.

    Back in the day, we noted that we were losing fans and not regaining them the way we had anticipated and got some pretty strong anecdotal evidence that the Metaplot fatigue issue was coming into play. So for the WoD re-imaging, we decided to stop going past Day Zero in the game books and leave that for our Fiction. Unfortunately, some months after that decision was made, the declining market meant that we no longer had the available manpower to keep Fiction going as well as relaunch the WoD- something had to give and it was Fiction. Losing the ongoing story in Fiction as well as history and backstory being lumped a bit too closely with Metaplot (I told you the internal definition of Metaplot was still being hammered out longer than we'd realized), and thus being very lightly or hesitantly presented in the first releases, meant that we'd lost both the negative and positive aspects of Metaplot at the same time. Consequently, there's a pretty legitimate claim to be made that the Big Three, particularly the core rulebooks, just don't feel as deep and involved as they should- the ancient mysteries which always have been an integral part of the mystique of the WoD aren't as compelling.

    So what are we going to do about it? (I mean, obviously, I have a point in bringing this up). As you can see with Changeling and with the Rome books for VtR, we're putting richness and depth back into our backstories. You'll get an incredible dose of the new thinking when the Clan Books start releasing with clan histories and mysteries dripping from every page. At the same time, as you saw with Rome, there will still be doubt as to which histories are the Truth- just like in real life. As Russell Bailey pointed out, being made a vampire doesn't change your ability to remember every little detail of your life, and the older ones have several lifetimes of memories to sift through- when was the last time you forgot a phone number, or where you left a book, or an acquaintance's name (sorry, Craig!). The Fog of Ages doesn't need to be a supernatural device when you look at it that way. Additionally, I'm moving forward with our plans to restart Fiction- in fact this was a given in my talk about the coming year with El Presidente Mike Tinney- I'll keep you informed how that develops.

    Hope that covers the whys and wherefores of Metaplot- let me know if there's more I could cover.

    Thanks-

    --richt
    Comments
    jconstantine From: [info]jconstantine Date: December 14th, 2007 10:58 pm (UTC) (Link)
    Interesting. I know amongst a lot of the gamers I associate with the "metaplot fatigue" you describe was a definate issue, I remember most of our games fell off about the time all the Eastern stuff hit. Not the sole reason, but I remember a couple of GMs mentioning it.

    Congrats to you guys for getting a better handle on it, I think so far the way you've introduced the metaplot ideas for Scion is some of the best work I've seen yet. Really looking forward to reading S:God when it hits.

    Thanks for the insight.
    dcharlton From: [info]dcharlton Date: December 14th, 2007 11:46 pm (UTC) (Link)
    Yeah... I jsut finished reading Scion: Hero. I've many beefs with the book but a constricting setting is not one of them. I appreciated that the how's and why's of Fate weren't included.

    ...the mechanics of the book make me want to cry a little. The FAQ on the WW website mentions that the rules for Fatebinding were made with the expectation that they would be ignored.

    However, the book keeps winning me back with lines like "One use of this action is enough to draw... both bottles of precious, precious booze.".
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    elmerg From: [info]elmerg Date: December 15th, 2007 01:16 am (UTC) (Link)

    Metaplot in and of itself isn't bad.

    It isn't. As much as I despised a lot of the old White Wolf metaplot, it's not a bad thing in and of itself. I think a part of the problem with metaplot, and a tie-in to 'metaplot fatigue' is, in addition to 'miss a book, miss something important!' was the aspect of 'metaplot is handed down by GOD AND MUST BE FOLLOWED!' which always resulted in boring, stale games to me.

    That's one of the reasons that I love the NWoD, without the metaplot and not having everything set in stone (no defined vampiric or Clan origins, Fog of Ages screwing with memories even worse than your own swiss cheese brain) it makes for a more interactive game. I hated playing in games where a player BITCHED for days when the GM diverged from the metaplot they had learned from all the books they bought. It seemed to make the game stale if a GM used it all, and I already knew what was going ot happen because I was getting hte books because I was STing for another group.
    wwricht From: [info]wwricht Date: December 16th, 2007 01:52 pm (UTC) (Link)

    Re: Metaplot in and of itself isn't bad.

    Good point- that's certainly another aspect of the metaplot problem. I'm not sure you can ever get away from any of that completely, just like I am sure that there are players and groups who have more fun if there is a totally defined canon to refer to. That's why I've been trying to make clear the difference between backstory- which you're indicating can also be a drag for you if you don't feel like you can change it- and metaplot. Not having any elements of the past that players can agree on seems like it would be a lot less interesting a gameworld- ie: see the comments further on in this LJ- but obviously YMMV.

    Thanks-

    --richt
    From: (Anonymous) Date: December 15th, 2007 01:22 am (UTC) (Link)
    That is a very concise and informative glance at an important topic. Thank you!

    I am one of those who welcomed the oWoD meta-plot at first (presuming it to be a rare singularity) and then growing really, really fed up with it towards its end. It just felt too much like a focus-shift, steadily moving away from refining the game and instead to only stretching and broadening it.

    So it is good WW took a step back and a deep breath with the relaunch. However I also very much welcome that (after reaching a consensus) background and novels, the flavor will again be more of a focus. This looks like a good (and necessary) middle path.

    IMO the modularity of the sourcebooks seems to be the nWoD’ greatest asset and hurdle: It allows every ST to configure his or her own world much more than the oWoD ever did, but it also pretty much forces him or her to do just that as well. Like a character a world needs flavor, background stories if it is to be cherished – something oozing out from the gaps, gluing pieces together where they happen to fall. As a fan I have much more respect for the nWoD, but the oWoD still captures me deeper on a purely emotional level. Ah, the stories! After reading enough of them it felt like place truly known to us and breathing, in which one could feel at home as a ST and improvise accordingly. I am still working on getting a similar connection to the new games which I prefer for their possibilities and ambition.

    At least the first Requiem novel helped me a lot towards “getting” the new iteration of Vampire, and so I am excited after reading today’s entry. If more and more books are really brimming with hooks, connecting to them and the world behind should finally be far less of a problem!

    Keep up the good work, BTW!

    vStumm,
    Germany
    wwricht From: [info]wwricht Date: December 16th, 2007 01:55 pm (UTC) (Link)
    Thanks- we're certainly aiming at providing that depth that leads to lots and lots of story hooks.

    --richt
    bringeroflight From: [info]bringeroflight Date: December 15th, 2007 02:13 am (UTC) (Link)
    For me, the worst part was the lack of _any_ indication where other bits of Metaplot were written.

    When you bought a 'key' update like Time of Thin Blood, and found out it referred to a bunch of stuff from another book, WITHOUT SAYING WHAT BOOK IT WAS . . . then the rage began.

    Where did the D'habi first turn up?

    Where can you find all the Revenant families with their discipline lists (including the extinct ones)?

    What did 90% of Encyclopedia Vampirica actually refer to?

    Great for trivia quizzes. Bad for finding any useful information.
    wwricht From: [info]wwricht Date: December 16th, 2007 02:00 pm (UTC) (Link)
    Also a good point. There was just so much info that even a developer couldn't keep track of everything from their own line, nevermind the entire WoD. I think the EV tried to codify a lot of that, but if I remembering right- and I might not be- I think it also included characters and events that were only featured in the German translators' books. EV was an English translation of a German publication, again if I'm remembering correctly. And then the page references got completely screwed up.

    Thanks-

    --richt
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    greyjoy From: [info]greyjoy Date: December 15th, 2007 03:05 am (UTC) (Link)
    The Fog of Ages doesn't need to be a supernatural device when you look at it that way.

    Indeed. I can scarcely remember what I had for breakfast this morning or which shirt I wore to work on Monday, let alone the precise appearance of somebody I knew for less than six months over a decade ago. Our memories often grant us only general impressions of events, trimming out the finer details. I suspect immortality would only make this phenomenon worse.
    draxar From: [info]draxar Date: December 15th, 2007 06:00 pm (UTC) (Link)
    Possibly. However, a reasonable degree of that phenomenon could be solved with that delightful new invention that the mortals have come up with - paper!

    (and indeed, other ways of recording events)
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    jedi_mario From: [info]jedi_mario Date: December 15th, 2007 04:18 am (UTC) (Link)
    I was one of those new fans who was daunted by the Metaplot. I came in to the World of Darkness about 2 or 3 years before Time of Judgment (I think when Hunter just came out). I got into Vampire, Wraith (It was done by the time I started, so it was less daunting to read through. . .although much more difficult to find), and Hunter, but that was the limit of my scope of oWoD. I read bits about the other lines, but I didn't find Werewolf or Changeling to be that compelling, and I was very intimidated by Mage.

    However, even then, I didn't get every, or even most of the books and I really started to get discouraged by my lack of understanding. So, I kind of called it quits.

    Then the nWoD hit and I figured I could get in on ground level. Ad, best of all, due to the toolbox nature of the games, I could save less needed books for a time when I had more money to buy them.

    The only thing I didn't like was the almost complete lack of backstory in Vampire. Obviously, you all associated it with metaplot at the time, but when Werewolf and Mage came out, it definitely felt like something was missing. However, I'm very glad this is being rectified with the Rome books and the Clan books.

    My one complaint about backstory, and its relation to metaplot, comes from Mage. Werewolf did the backstory portion very well without focusing too much on it in the game. However, when it came to Mage, it felt that the backstory (Atlantis) was too integrated into the game. The Pentacle Orders and their heavy ties to Atlantis made the line between backstory and metaplot very blurry. However, Promethean and Changeling have gone back to the Werewolf take on things and they're better off for it. Hopefully, game six *cough*Hunter*cough* will keep the Werewolf/Promethean/Changeling line of thinking and not go the way of Mage.
    wwricht From: [info]wwricht Date: December 16th, 2007 02:06 pm (UTC) (Link)
    Whatever the sixth game is... it's been worked on with the same design philosophy as we've been using with our more recent releases. I've been focusing on Vampire here, mostly, because WtF and Mage have their own challenges in addition to this issue, but rest assured we've been discussing them too.

    Thanks-

    --richt
    matt_m_mcelroy From: [info]matt_m_mcelroy Date: December 15th, 2007 04:19 am (UTC) (Link)
    I am really looking forward to more fiction. I've got a WoD story in the works that I'd love to submit someday if Submission Guidelines are ever posted.
    the_pangolin From: [info]the_pangolin Date: December 15th, 2007 07:58 am (UTC) (Link)
    Ditto.
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    allamistako From: [info]allamistako Date: December 15th, 2007 06:07 am (UTC) (Link)
    More fiction is good.
    Metaplot is bad.

    That's basically the way I see it - well, me, and almost everyone I know who's jumped onto the nWoD Bandwagon (A lot of us left you around the time of Revised / 3rd because of the "Rise of themetaplot"). The people who liked metaplot around here just stuck with the oWoD. So please, release as much GOOD fiction as you like, but don't start running a metaplot.

    You might find you'll be lossing customers, and the old ones woun't come back.
    wwricht From: [info]wwricht Date: December 16th, 2007 02:10 pm (UTC) (Link)
    Glad you came back and are in tune with the direction we're going. It's certainly part of the plan that the fiction be GOOD. :)

    Thanks-

    --richt
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    the_pangolin From: [info]the_pangolin Date: December 15th, 2007 07:55 am (UTC) (Link)
    I'm glad you're finally addressing this.

    I didn't bother getting into WoD 2.0 until "Mage" came out (and even then wasn't truly excited until "Promethean") exactly because the "Vampire" and "Werewolf" core books (especially "Vampire") felt thin and uninvolving -- they seemed to be 6 parts rules and statistics to 1 part world and backstory (and most of the world and backstory seemed to be vague suggestions about what players might possibly want to try).

    "Promethean" really captivated me, and I've been pleasantly surprised by subsequent projects (like "Changeling" and V:tR "Rome"), but the thinness of the "Big 3" always felt more like an attempt to sell supplemental books than anything else so I never felt the same loyalty I had towards "Promethean" or the older WoD. I'd be very happy to see that change!
    wwricht From: [info]wwricht Date: December 16th, 2007 02:18 pm (UTC) (Link)
    Well let me address your one comment and while I might not alter your suspicions, it's worth saying out loud. At no point do we design our books with the idea that a lack of info in one area will drive sales of later books. We might know that a particular item bears further discussion, but we always try and include as much info as possible so that you have enough to play that aspect of the game. Sometimes we know we'll expand on it because the full treatment just won't fit, but we don't cold bloodedly decide to give minimum info in order to create a whole 'nother book to sell. What happened with the core WoD books was a design philosophy that seemed to have gone a bit too far in one direction. Sorry to be a bit forceful here, but the idea that we short change our core books is just not how we do it.

    Thanks-

    --richt
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    draxar From: [info]draxar Date: December 15th, 2007 08:00 am (UTC) (Link)
    Good idea. But the problem is you've already lost a lot of us.

    Depth to backstories is a great thing, but those of us put off by the lack of it in the nWoD corebooks are unlikely to go out and buy lots of books to try and get that depth into the nWoD, especially as we've only got your saying that you think it's there - we may look at what's there and still find it lifeless. Personally I never had much problem with metaplot - it seemed to make sense for me in a game where it's set in the current day.

    The oWoD core books may have not had the space to actually a filled depth, but they clearly showed that that depth was there, with many possibilities for ways to go - Local politics, national/internation politics, elder scheming, Cam vs Sabbat, the more mystical side of things with noddist stuff, and so on. nWoD vampire seems to just have local politics and covenant politics from the core book.
    From: (Anonymous) Date: December 15th, 2007 02:41 pm (UTC) (Link)
    "Depth to backstories is a great thing, but those of us put off by the lack of it in the nWoD corebooks are unlikely to go out and buy lots of books to try and get that depth into the nWoD"

    The good news here is that, since there's no metaplot coming on but just some more depth and richness to background in books organized in a very modular manner, none of you (those put off by the lack of it in the cores) really needs to buy supplements you haven't to date, just the new ones released that address the theme you felt drawn to.

    Everyone talks about metaplot, but what I see as the main advantage over the new settings over the old ones is the modular organization - meaning, if the metaplot was organized differently in the oWoD maybe it wouldn't be that much of an issue as it sounded to many.

    In nWoD, you still don't get "the truths about the Roman Camarilla" in any other books besides the two about Rome (and even then they're not really 'truths', just deep mysteries of the race's backstory, but follow me), and I suspect this modular approach will still hold no matter how many 'integrated mysteries' the developers will come up with from now on.

    In oWoD these things weren't organized in a modular way. You could get the book on the Black Hand and discover later that a lot of its past and future was presented in the ST's Companion Revised, in Vampire: the Dark Ages and even in the Wraith line. Sure, one doesn't need to know all, but it was still annoying to someone who actually wanted to use the Black Hand to its full extent (the whole two-sects-in-one gimmick notwithstanding).

    Beyond that, metaplot or not, some design and plot choices will not appeal to everyone, no matter if they're organized in a modular way or if they configure metaplot or not. So I'd say... Take a peek at the new books that present more on backstory, see if they seem to rock your socks off and decide if you want to get them, knowing you won't need to buy any previous supplement if you don't want to. Things are different now, you won't end up feeling like another poster above felt when getting Time of Thin Blood (asking oneself where the heck this or that detail/splat/bit is expanded). That's the main advantage of nWoD, not exactly the lack or the presence of metaplot or rich backstories.

    Fabio 'Sooner' Macedo
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    eryx_uk From: [info]eryx_uk Date: December 15th, 2007 11:33 am (UTC) (Link)
    I'm one of those rare people who actually enjoyed the Metaplot. To me a game setting is often stale if it doesn't move on with the times. The oWoD metaplot for Masquerade was fantastic. You can afterall take it or leave it. Requiem, IMO, suffers a little in not having some kind of metaplot and despite having several years of Masquerade under my belt, it made it somewhat hard to get my head around at first.

    wwricht From: [info]wwricht Date: December 16th, 2007 02:44 pm (UTC) (Link)
    I don't think you're rare at all. The "story" of the fall towards the end times was one of the things that people really loved (and we really loved creating) about the oWoD. Unfortunately, as you can read in the comments even just here, while some people (like yourself) used it or could discard it at will, a lot of other people also found that it got confusing, intimidating, and intrusive to their actual gaming.

    And I agree, VtR does suffer a little, but I think its a necessary suffering in order for it to be a better game, and which can be soothed a bit by adding in a great deal more depth of history and some exciting new Fiction like I talk about in my OP. It's an after-the-fact sort of thing, but we never meant to cut fans of the metaplot off cold turkey- it just worked out that way and now we're trying to get us and you back to where we should be.

    Thanks-

    --richt
    justus_outlaw From: [info]justus_outlaw Date: December 15th, 2007 12:55 pm (UTC) (Link)

    Good God, I'm old...

    I'm one of those old timers. I was writing /changling characters before the book actually came out.
    Metaplot was personal. I had decided so many dark secrets and backstories before the extra books came out that it became a problem. I am still running a story that I started in 1996. After adding so many new players (over 20, coming and going, at last count) I had to start making EXECUTIVE DECISIONS.
    justus_outlaw From: [info]justus_outlaw Date: December 15th, 2007 01:01 pm (UTC) (Link)

    Re: Good God, I'm old...

    I had so many player quoting books that I hadn't seen, that I became a rules lawyer.
    "Let me read the book and I'll tell you if it applies in MY WOLRD"

    The term "Game Canon" enter the vocabulary. New players had to be indoctranized. "Did you read the new book?" became a dreaded question.
    Summer school? Vacation? Having any kind of life left you out of the loop. As a casual consumer, it was impossible to keep up. I had the core books. The rest of the shit, I made up.
    Cuz, I was a Storyteller, Bitches!!!
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    oneforellis From: [info]oneforellis Date: December 15th, 2007 02:35 pm (UTC) (Link)
    Thank you, that was actually very clear. I like that the new books don't have definitive plots but more hints at what what might have been and the storyteller can pick and choose what he/she wants to make true. I still cry that there isn't going to be anymore nWoD fiction though : (
    wwricht From: [info]wwricht Date: December 16th, 2007 02:54 pm (UTC) (Link)
    Well, there is going to be more Fiction- that's what I'm working on- like I said in the OP.

    Don't be sad anymore-

    :)

    --richt
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    dmoonfire From: [info]dmoonfire Date: December 15th, 2007 02:50 pm (UTC) (Link)
    Metaplot is one of those things that always frustrated me. Mainly because our game kept moving forward and would trample the next metaplot, which meant that we had to figure out how to merge the changes or which one to ignore. Made it a bit more difficult when they were already in a "Save the World" plot that pretty much blew past the changes that I couldn't predict. :)

    The idea of highly developing "year zero" is an appealing one. I like knowing the world at a given state, then letting me (as a ST or writer) go forward from there. And, though a lot of people don't like it, I actually liked the "what-if" scenarios of the Alchemical book. Developing a world, then giving a "if these things happen, it could end up like this." So, having what-if metaplots I think would be cool for those who don't just go blindly forward (I stole idea from Locust Wars for my Alchemical invasion though I went in a much different direction from that seed) and trample over your future plot.

    Related to metaplot is the discussion of mechanics verses world: there are cases when I really don't care for the canon world. Mainly because my group obsessively reads every single book in the world, and sooner or later, someone expects something specific to happen in the books that didn't happen in my world, we get a conflict. In my first Exalted campaign, we ended up going in such a different direction that it invalidated most of the established canon for the Exalted universe (not to mention, I kept putting the Earth pole in the north :)) that there was a request to keep to canon for the second. :) So, we had a Fourth Age that rearranged things a bit to bring it more inline, but... well, for those who read the books for world development and having a ST who does things differently can be frustrating.

    Personally, I like the year zero and metaplot for ideas, but I deviate rather quickly from them when players are involved.

    Not really sure if that had a point, just putting it out there.

    Oh, and I'm really, really excited about the idea of restarting the fiction side of things (obviously). :D
    wwricht From: [info]wwricht Date: December 16th, 2007 02:56 pm (UTC) (Link)
    Well, yeah. As I know more about Fiction, I will keep you all posted.

    Thanks-

    --richt
    terribleangel From: [info]terribleangel Date: December 15th, 2007 03:26 pm (UTC) (Link)
    I was a big fan of the oWoD metaplot. I think it was rich and well done, for the most part. That being said, I had no problem throwing huge chunks of it away for the needs of my games.

    On the other hand, we had the Metaplot of the Trinity Universe games, which was as solid gold. I think that line was a clear example of how Metaplot works much better in smaller game lines than in massive, sprawling lines like Vampire.

    wwricht From: [info]wwricht Date: December 16th, 2007 03:06 pm (UTC) (Link)
    There is definitely a part of the metaplot problem that comes from the sheer number of books which define it. A smaller, limited series does allow for a contained metaplot that can add to the fun- ie: Orpheus.

    Funny you should mention Trinity though, because that was a real learning experience for us in a lot of ways. Our feedback at the time was that a lot of people didn't like the ongoing, revealed in stages metaplot. Again, fun to read, but were you OK with the reveals which essentially added in huge changes to the setting after the fact? Like, the big mystery of the Teleporters- where are they, what are they doing? We got some seriously pissed off fans wanting to know why we ruined their campaigns because we brought them back in a way that didn't work with the fans' ongoing chronicles. Eventually we put together that extra page of "Here's the secrets" so that Storytellers didn't go too far down the wrong roads. Did your group have any issues with any of that?

    Thanks-

    --richt
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    dawngreeter From: [info]dawngreeter Date: December 16th, 2007 01:26 am (UTC) (Link)
    There's one huge improvement in nWoD over oWoD that has nothing to do with metaplot and that's the scale of the games. It's possibly a metaplot side-effect, but in oWoD everything was connected. As a dedicated ST of my gaming group, I was often like a deer caught in the headlights every time the story was going in the direction of doing anything of importance. And there were over-arching authority figures of unstoppable fury which are not present in nWoD. All of this has noting directly to do with the metaplot, but is vastly improved in the new incarnation of the game. And having this in mind, adding metaplot wouldn't be necessarily bad.

    Well, ok, it would be if it started affecting the entire world the way it did in oWoD. But I don't rightly think anyone would mind story progressing in certain self-contained bubbles. Like, say, having one city change and progress over time. I can see expansions moving the story set in New Orleans as a fun thing to do, and it would in no way affect the entire game line. Or even most of it. Though, admittedly, this kind of is what WoD fiction is doing (I do hope it makes a comeback, the game fiction).

    Also, to repeat what I already said once, Orpheus-like metaplot in limited games can be extremely satisfactory and of no relevance to WoD at large since it's an optional element to begin with.
    wwricht From: [info]wwricht Date: December 16th, 2007 03:09 pm (UTC) (Link)
    I agree- a self-contained bubble like Orpheus or the Locust Campaign for Exalted can work just fine. In some sense, the two Rome books can be seen that way, and we have some more mini-Limited Series in the works that go that direction (see my last LJ for more talk about that).

    Thanks-

    --richt
    From: (Anonymous) Date: December 16th, 2007 01:34 am (UTC) (Link)

    Idetrorce

    very interesting, but I don't agree with you
    Idetrorce
    wwricht From: [info]wwricht Date: December 16th, 2007 03:10 pm (UTC) (Link)

    Re: Idetrorce

    Uh, with what exactly?

    Thanks-

    --richt
    vampir5 From: [info]vampir5 Date: December 16th, 2007 05:03 am (UTC) (Link)
    More fiction is always nice to hear... especially some non-Requiem fiction...
    wwricht From: [info]wwricht Date: December 16th, 2007 03:11 pm (UTC) (Link)
    Yep- more news when I have it-

    Thanks-

    --richt
    From: [info]orava.myopenid.com Date: December 17th, 2007 09:58 am (UTC) (Link)

    I actually like(d) metaplot, up to a point

    Well, I actually liked the oWoD metaplot, up to a point -- as noted, it gave depth and complexity (and a sense of the mysterious) to the game world. Oh, I do agree that it got out of hand... but I would not condemn metaplot as always bad. *Bad* metaplot is bad, but...

    For example, I love what was done with Orpheus. Maybe this is something that WW might try to do again (a limited game with a built-in campaign of sorts, instead of just the current toolkit approach)?

    Another thing that I'd like to see is *optional* metaplot books. For example, a "Return of the Empress" book for Exalted, outlining what might happen if the Empress does return. Maybe with 2-3 different scenarios, just to avoid the "locked into one official storyline" trap. Something like this was done in the VII book for Vampire, and I liked it -- but imho it could be taken even a bit futher, unashamedly into metaplot territory, as long as it was totally clear that this was *optional* metaplot, one "what if?" scenario among many. I would find something like that very refreshing amidst all this generic toolkit meterial, and would buy such at once.

    I like good metaplot.
    From: [info]orava.myopenid.com Date: December 17th, 2007 10:02 am (UTC) (Link)

    Trinity

    Oh, and forgot to mention above: Trinity was an example of metaplot done mostly right, imho. Core rules and expansion books that were (mostly) devoid of metaplot, then a big metaplot/campaign as a separate set of books. It gave the best of both worlds, imho; a game world without metaplot to those that wanted to roll their own, and a big, grand background story to those who wanted to use the metaplot. Sure, it had its problems and could have been done even better (there was some metaplot leakage), but on the whole I think it was a good model.
    From: (Anonymous) Date: December 20th, 2007 04:05 am (UTC) (Link)
    Good stuff and thanks Rich. I cannot wait for the fiction to start back up including Nevermore's book, but I have to say let the great one have a whack at a few more books on the Requiem line, and that great one is none other then Greg Stolze. He basically sold the line with the interaction of Kindred, etc. I also think he should bring us the Testament of Longinus at some point.

    But come to think of it some Werewolf, Mage, and Changeling fiction would be lovely too. Man so many wants. lol

    razorwolf From: [info]razorwolf Date: December 20th, 2007 05:08 pm (UTC) (Link)
    I became involved with gaming just after the final OWoD books came out (in March of 2004) and the strong metaplot was what helped me fall in love. These books/games had story, not just rules and modifiers that only serve to make dungeon crawls boring. I proceeded to buy almost every book printed for Werewolf, and quite a few for Vampire, in no particular order, but I never had trouble following the metaplot by buying random books from all three editions. My players were into the metaplot too, though it didn't usually have a huge role in my games, but it was always great to see their faces light up when they met a signature character or found themselves in the middle of a plot twist that would impact the entire Garou Nation.

    The lack of metaplot was one thing that made me not want to pick up the new line. The new WoD just feels so dry and flavorless to me, and the kit-like setup was too rules-intensive for me and mine. No one likes spending an entire evening on character creation. Granted, I haven't seen much of the most recent publications for the Big 3, but I'm afraid any improvements now may be too little, too late. I loved Monte Cook's World of Darkness though.

    I've noticed that metaplot is starting to seep into Exalted, what with some of the events from the novels being referenced in the 2nd Ed. books. :-)

    But I am very pleased to hear that more fiction is on the way. I'll be checking for the new Submission Guidelines.
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