BrassKnight ([info]brassknight86) wrote in [info]wesley_lounge,
@ 2007-09-26 08:08:00
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Epiphany
...I just realized, I may have had an epiphany that could cause me to be ostricised from the larger Christian community. I was walking back from the music building thinking about belief and I said to myself "That's it"
I believe the secret to the Christian faith may actually lie in the teachings of an early, radical, Jewish-Christian teacher. His name was Jesus and he lived right around the beginning of this religion as we know it.
I've delayed revealing this revelation because I know it runs against the grain of our society. For example, this Jesus's teachings are in direct opposition to the branch of Christianity our esteemed President, George Bush, believes in-- you know, the one that condones bombing cities as long as you save unborn babies. It's also in opposition to some Christians' general ethic~~ which dictates that churches are better if they're large and contain people of similar origin. Not to mention, these teachings go against human nature in general.

Never the less, I think these teachings may be worth exploration and even enhance my faith. ...I never was one for big, bomb-loving, excuse making bodies anyway. I might have to radicalize my faith. I hope none of you mind if I start to beg to differ sometimes.

I feel like religion should be a spiritual thing. I know that's unconventional... but... oh well...

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[info]ghetto_bridget
2007-09-26 02:28 pm UTC (link)
I have to say, sir, that I am also a fan of spiritual, rather than corporate, religion.

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The spiritual corporate...
[info]brassknight86
2007-09-26 06:06 pm UTC (link)
There is something in a real corporate worship that individual study does not touch. There is also something in devoted study that can not be touched in corporation... and in one on one (or three/four person) discussions about faith there might be the most of all.

I see some back-lash, especially among younger people, to the idea of a corporate spirituality-- and I typically blame the individualist culture. So, my gut reaction to your response was "okay... I could predict that... it's probably our inner Americans crying to be individual while infact...:

...but that's not what you're looking for. You can probably see that. The real question is, what is this corporate spirituality? The answer is... it's something I always felt more in Quaker meetings than Methodist ones. So, the answer gets longer from here... and what made that corporate worship spiritual instead of routine? Was it the open worship? The periods of silence that seem to bother people who aren't used to open worship? I tend to think so... because so many people would rather experience a shallow corporate worship so they can reject it as legitimate rather than have an intense corporate experience and have their faith exposed to them in the presence of other people.

...but no one gets anything out of corporate worship unless they've been relating to God personally. I'm saying that because it's been true of me--- if I don't talk to God all week by myself, then I don't get a lot out of church.

So... perhaps your point stands-- but not without being complicated.

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Re: The spiritual corporate...
[info]ghetto_bridget
2007-09-26 09:17 pm UTC (link)
I was more laying down my (terribly biased) opinion about selling religion en masse versus actually having religious beliefs that you practice with a large group in open worship.

See, being raised in small churches (>150, even on a good Sunday, unless it was Christmas or Easter) has made me seriously question large churches. While it's probably fantastic that they have such good attendance and membership, it makes me wonder whether their members' beliefs have become routine and more of an obligation than a desire for closeness with God.
For example, my sister attends a sort of mega-church down by Jeff's hometown. In order to become a member, you must give them your tax records so that they can tell you what to tithe. That scares me...giving to your church should be a free choice, dictated by what you are able and willing to give, and not necessarily in currency. I find something terribly wrong in that. Being a member of a church should require nothing more than a desire to be closer to God and a willingness to contribute to the community. Isn't that what a church is-- a place to worship God and be a part of something larger than yourself with people who support you and your beliefs? I think that some churches have lost that in their search for more members; their mentality has become quantity over quality (of people, of connections, of worship, etc.) I'm not saying that mega-churches are all bad-- I've never been a member of one, and I've rarely attended services at one. These are my impressions, and like I said, they are probably very biased.

No one gets anything out of any kind of worship-- corporate, small group, whatever-- unless they can personally relate to God. If you go to church because you feel obligated, or because you're waiting for that spiritual revelation without doing any of the work...well, what's the point? Are you looking for some great answer? Do you believe you will be magically healed in body and in spirit by TV evangelists? Not unless you work for it.

I'm not saying I'm completely right about not liking corporate worship. I get more out of smaller groups and discussions. Other people may get more out of proclaiming their faith in front of hundreds of people and worshiping with that large number. Yes, it's a complicated issue...but that's because none of us have the exact same beliefs or ways of approaching our beliefs and ideas about what it means to relate and have a relationship with God.

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*applause*
[info]brassknight86
2007-09-26 09:23 pm UTC (link)
I'm only applauding because I agree with you... but also a stirring display.

...and we actually agree about corporate worship-- I wouldn't have known that if we hadn't had this exchange. I definately always enjoyed the small services and the small groups. My most spiritual experience of the past year happened at ministry exploration in Florida. It wasn't at the huge service--- it was the way God worked in super CREEPY uncanny ways in our small group. I've never seen a small group quite like that-- it brought me closer to God. That was corporate without being en masse--- perhaps what you're driving at?

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OMG
[info]brassknight86
2007-09-26 09:26 pm UTC (link)
You meant a different connotation to 'corporate'--- you took the business connotation. Oh I hate that kind of corporate influence too! I thought you meant corporate in the general sense of shared rather than individual. That explains EVERYTHING!

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Thou Shalt not mix
[info]ikmutanka
2007-09-26 04:17 pm UTC (link)
Politics and Religion.

The former preys upon peoples' feelings about the latter.
The latter isn't dependent upon the former at all. That's the beauty of it.

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[info]brassknight86
2007-09-26 06:08 pm UTC (link)
I see them both as man-made partitions... but I still don't try to play both games at once.

...then again, Jesus did. Check out his conflicts with the Pharisees... He always played both games at once.

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[info]laughing_eyes
2007-09-27 01:53 am UTC (link)
hey...I used to go to Judson Collins when I was a kid!

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