Chris ([info]warlord683) wrote in [info]warhammer_fb,
@ 2008-04-14 06:27:00
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Current mood: contemplative

About Chaos in Fantasy
Well if they are making a 'seperate but no crossover' army for each type (beasts, humans, daemons) then there will be a lot less confusion during army creation, no doubt. But isn't it also so that once again GW is encroaching on the theme that they have set out for themselves that veterans have come to expect?

Without demons what does Chaos Humans army look like? Excluding Hero choices you'll have Marauders, Marauder Light Cav, Chaos Warriors (chosen or otherwise), Chaos Knights (chosen or otherwise), a giant and a chariot... Thats about it...

Perhaps they will leave the Chaos Spawns within the list, but they are daemons. Furies would be too and thats considered the only skirmish unit that the Chaos army has as a whole (except for the Flayerkin, which are typically special features within GW approved lists in the WD). So besides the 'possible' addition to Flayerkin, then what? Your not dealing with a very large selection. Granted, Chaos armies are typically not that big, but still...

Also, what about the HellCannon? It is a VERY popular model, with VERY popular rules. It is the ONLY long range weapon Chaos armies have that isn't magic attacks. Its considered a Daemon, true that, but such a popular model will be axed? Its not that i wouldn't mind not seeing the hellcannon, and/or facing one, but it is a very popular model if nothing less then annoying to have to play against (and quite devistating too).

Besides the obvious nature of removing the 3x Rulebooks to make 1 list do you think this is a good thing that they are totally seperating these 3 armies when in 'fluff' they should really be working together as they have been in the current rulebooks?


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[info]figmaniac
2008-04-14 01:16 pm UTC (link)
Can't say as I'd be pleased - I've finished a Tzeentch-themed mortal/beast mix army that I'm rather happy with overall. If no daemons are allowed in a Mortal army, what about daemonic mounts? Do I lose my Disc and my Evil Horsey of Doom? Then again, like all things GW, I just figure it's "wait and see what the truth holds." If they break it all apart, I suppose I'll play around that too. Just wish there was less of an impetus to "fix" what's not broken.

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[info]sasjhwa
2008-04-14 02:54 pm UTC (link)
I don't think the idea is to fix something that is broken as it is to make it fresh and new and different than what has been before. It is the nature of Chaos to change. As a Tzeentch player you should appreciate that! ;-p

Seriously, over time the game gets stale. I would rather see new armies come out with new cool things even if it means losing some of what I liked in the previous edition. I have yet to see a new army in 7th edition that was not better than the 6th edition version. I'm willing to trust that they know what they are doing, particularly as it applies to Chaos. It is one of their most popular and thematic factions and they aren't going to be foolish enough to do something that will flush it down the toilet.

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[info]sasjhwa
2008-04-14 02:51 pm UTC (link)
I don't know if the no crossover thing is true or not. I haven't seen it in any form other than rumor.

As for your analysis of the Mortal Chaos list, don't assume they are just going to strip out the demon units and then publish the remaining list. They will come up with a ton of new units, characters, magic items, etc.

One rumor I've heard is that Chaos Dwarves will be included in the mortal list, for example.

I suspect there will be enough in the army list to make people really excited about it.

Personally I would rather have the 3 chaos armies be separate. That does make it more difficult for the Chaos players who already own minis but there will be enough overlap time between Daemons and Mortals that a playable army can be built. There are also going to be a lot of Chaos players who have 2 or 3 armies.

My problem with them being combined is that it overpowers the list in some respects. There is so much to choose from and so many hard to kill units that the temptation to cheese the army out is really high. It also dilutes the theme. I like the idea of a Norse army marching out of the Northern Wastes. As you pointed out, using just the mortal units currently available it is hard to make a strong list (except the all cav list). But if they get a list strong enough to field their own army and so do Daemons and Beasts, you have strength built upon strength in ways the game has never seen before.

Yes, it will take some adaptation from players, but change is good for the game and people will find ways to adapt. Or they will stop playing. I suspect it will bring more people into the game than it will lose though.

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[info]donovan_love
2008-04-14 04:39 pm UTC (link)
Its true. Straight from email from GW. here is the second email I got explaining why.

We do not know for sure why they changed, but I can guess. I believe it was due to the dubious balance of the current Hordes of Chaos/Beasts of Chaos books and some confusion over how to use them together. We have received many questions on how to use Beasts of Chaos with Hordes of Chaos. The balance issue has to do with crazy things like Chosen Knights and Chaos Chariots being core (which no army can match) and the ability to add those units to a Beasts of Chaos army, thus giving them some hard hitting, tough units that they normally cannot get. The ‘get-you-by’ list for Mortals is quite basic and will let everyone use their Mortals until the new army book comes out. On the good side, I hear it will have the Hellcannon in it. We don’t know when the Beasts of Chaos will get their new book.

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[info]warlord683
2008-04-14 11:40 pm UTC (link)
that is exactly my speculation on the whole thing and i had no idea this particular email post had proven those speculations to be true in some ways.

I am sure without a doubt that the army list isn't even on paper yet. Chaos Dwarves would be interesting, yes, but really? That means Hobgoblins will also be present. You can't have Dwarves with funny hats without the magical gobbos to back them up, such notions would just be silly... but i could see how they would be considered the skirmishers (hobgoblins), while the chaos dwarves would actually give the mortals some much needed firepower (rather then the all too common point and charge crush from chaos knights, you now have a list that is just as versitle and fun as an Empire army)

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[info]jagwire
2008-04-14 08:15 pm UTC (link)
I think the seperationo is rubbish, and very lazy on GW's part. The only reason I can see for them doing it (and it's not sales for once - Demons would sell a helluva lot more if Mortal armies could field them - same goes for 40K) is because they are afraif people will min-max the strongest elements of each army in one uber-monster army. So instead of rigorously playtesting the various possible combinations, the brain-donors at GW decide to split them all into seperate lists. Poor form.

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[info]dirtntrees
2008-04-14 08:47 pm UTC (link)
Maybe we all just need to wait before getting on the Waambulance.

Don't we have enough things to criticize GW about in their CURRENT edition of rules/armies/models/campaigns/pricing/etc that we can put off complaining about possible things that may be true?

Even if there is no crossover, they may take the opportunity to add MORE mortals of chaos? More skirmishers, scouts, cultists, socerors, chariots, what ever. Maybe we can convert models from other armies to our cause! Maybe the new chaos book will grant US special powers, it's just idle speculation.

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[info]lindsay40k
2008-04-15 01:13 am UTC (link)
Hmm, the latest Chaos Marines books seemed more like a 3rd ed rulebook list than an expansion. No mention of the various lost & damned stuff that cxould have been worked in perfectly well. It strikes me Furies were the start of this 'crap Daemons for the mortals, Chaos Pantheon keeps the good stuff for their own armies (WHICH NEED MORTAL WORSHIPPERS TO SUSTAIN THEMSELVES)' philosophy.

Given the introduction of large games with allied forces though, I think a lot of friendly games will mix and match the various Chaos forces pretty regularly, and removing the scope to min-max will hopefully benefit tourneys. Where before we had army lists for specialist chapters, I think we'll get apocalypse formations instead to retain the character.

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[info]blademaster777
2008-04-15 06:57 am UTC (link)
The Hellcannon is an abortion and should never have been considered in the first place, let alone had rules made up for it.

Just like the Bretonian Trebuchet. Those armies were never supposed to use warmachines.

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