Laura Shapiro ([info]laurashapiro) wrote in [info]vidding,
@ 2006-12-04 18:20:00
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VIDDING META: You Can't Stop The Signal
Introduction
Over the last several years, it's become increasingly common for vidders to complain of having lost control over the distribution of their work. People's vids get "sampled" by other vidders, they get put up on YouTube, they wind up on blogs and in other public spaces. At the same time, more and more vidders and other video remixers have been going more and more public, fearlessly putting their own work out there, even working collaboratively with mainstream media creators and tech companies.

Further, there has been frustration among more academically-minded fans about the fact that our 30-year history and traditions are not widely known, and that other, male-dominated communities are taking credit for having "invented" this art form and being enshrined in various publications for their creative efforts and participatory cultures, even as our contributions are ignored or even mocked.

Tensions are increasing. The corner of the fannish vidding community where I sit has been grappling with some of the most fundamental concerns of media fandom: the need for safe spaces, the need to avoid legal reprisals, the need for pleasure, and the need for respect.

So we have a basic problem here: we simultaneously lambaste the people (both inside and outside of fandom) who are ignorant of our culture and its origins, and scramble to keep ourselves below the radar. How can we "keep it secret, keep it safe" and then expect to be known and respected for our work?

In the past week, I've had the opportunity to speak with vidders, vid fans, academics, and creators of other sorts of derivative art. I've been trying to get to the bottom of historical fannish concerns and current vidders' concerns, and to try to understand the evolving climate in which we are at work and at play.

In this post, I hope to outline the most pressing issues vidders face, and how we might benefit from wider exposure as a community. My goal is to facilitate a broad discussion of these issues, with as many people as possible joining in. I am especially hoping to hear from vidders who are outside of my normal vidding sphere. Therefore, I have allowed anonymous comments, linked to this in [info]fan_vids and my own journal, posted a reference on the Vidder mailing list, and am hoping this gets picked up by [info]metafandom. Please help spread the word!


Why we hide
Most vidders I know personally are afraid of being sued over intellectual property and copyright issues, and the entity they fear most is the RIAA, which has a history of targeting individuals, even those with little money or influence. Such lawsuits can devastate individuals and families, costing people their jobs and anything they might have in the way of savings.

Secondarily, some vidders face reprisals in their personal lives. Fandom, especially as we practice it, is still often seen as a weird, illegitimate, nonsensical waste of time. When you compound this with potential legal issues and the celebrations of sexuality that many women's fannish creations involve, being "out" as a vidder can result in uncomfortable situations (or worse) at work, at church, with family, and with non-fannish friends.

Finally, in the larger sense, there's the desire to be safe in a space filled with people who understand us, rather than to be ridiculed in a larger environment made of people who don't understand what we do or why we do it. Most vidders make vids for fun. They aren't interested in having to go around justifying their hobbies to people who don't value them. This is particularly galling at a time when male fannish creations and behaviors are beginning to be recognized, academically and in the wider world, as interesting and valuable contributions to culture, and male fans are forming partnerships with major media producers and getting to go pro.

You can't stop the signal.
However legitimate a vidder's fears may be, the fact is that the vids are already out there. The minute we put our vids online, we expose ourselves to the world. Admittedly there are varying degrees of this: locked posts, password-protected sites, and temporary links are some of the lengths to which vidders go in order to keep off the radar. But we can't stop people from finding and watching vids, especially since the advent of YouTube and similar sites. We can't stop people from sharing our vids without our consent or even our knowledge. We can't control the distribution of our own work in a viral medium.

We also can't control other people's attitudes. New vidders arrive on the scene every day, without any historical context or legal fears, and plunk their vids onto YouTube without a second thought. They post publicly and promote themselves enthusiastically, and why not? That's what everybody does on the Internet, from the AMV creators to machinima-makers to Brokeback Mountain parodists to political remixers. All of these works are potentially infringing, but these creators don't hide, and they are drawing attention. Lots of it. Bloggers and news sites are writing about independent media and the rise of user-generated content, and academics are writing books about fannish creations of all kinds. Almost nobody is talking about us yet, but it's only a matter of time. If we aren't there to represent our points of view, what do you think they will say about vidders?

If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.
Given that our vids are getting out into the world, what are the advantages of continuing to try keep vidding, as a concept, underground? It's possible that some individual vidders may feel or even be safer from legal exposure. The community is likely to feel more or less the way it has always felt: small, predominantly female, and made up of people who "get it" to some degree or other. But as more and more vidders offer their work publicly, and more and more hidden vids are "discovered", vital changes to the community may be inevitable.

So what are the advantages of bringing vidding to wider audiences?

  • recognition of our history and traditions, academically and socially (new vidders learn, older vidders are venerated)

  • the opportunity to provide context and normalize our fannish work the way traditionally male fannish work is becoming normalized

  • the potential for vidders to connect fannish work with professional work, working professionally in the entertainment industry if they want to

  • more widespread appreciation and recognition of great vids and great vidders

  • the potential to generate widespread support for us in any legal battles we may encounter (joining forces with other DIY video communities, representation of the Electronic Frontiers Foundation, creation of legal defense funds, etc.)

  • the potential for cross-pollination or even unification of disparate vidding communities and the chance to connect isolated vidders with those communities

  • the chance to influence Big Media to create more of the kinds of TV shows and movies we value

  • the potential to influence the wider viewing world with themes and portrayals of sexual and gender equality, homosexuality, etc.

  • more feedback for everybody!


What are the disadvantages of such exposure? There would be an awkward adjustment period during which a lot of us have to do a lot of explaining, but it seems to me that this would be fairly brief and very valuable. Going public is also likely to bring more vidders into the community who may challenge our values, but is that a bad thing? Ultimately, such a move may change our communities in ways we cannot anticipate, which can of course be very frightening.

It's up to us.
In considering these pros and cons, I want to be very clear not to conflate the idea of a greater public visibility of vidding as a whole with the greater public visibility of any individual fan. If vidding itself is more widely understood and recognized, that doesn't mean that any individual vidder must expose herself. She can continue to use a pseud, continue to password-protect her work, can even take her vids offline if she chooses. It will always be possible for any individual to be "in the closet" to her family/friends/work if she chooses. Giving vids a public face simply means that others she encounters would be more likely to know what vidding is, and potentially more likely to view it positively.

We can to some degree control whether we as individuals are vidding in public. We probably can't control whether vidding as a whole goes public -- it's going, going, gone. Can we control the spin? Can we get something out of it? Can we benefit ourselves and our communities by embracing, rather than fighting, this new visibility?

What do we want? Do we just want to be left alone to have our fun, without threat of legal interference or invasions of the ignorant? Or do we want credit for our work? Do we want to be recognized, to become part of the historical archive? Do we want professional editing or filmmaking careers? Do we want to be able to influence the creative direction of the shows we watch? Do we want to be thought of as sane, creative, and valuable?

We can't stop the signal, but we do have choices to make.



(Post a new comment)


[info]cathexys
2006-12-05 02:38 am UTC (link)
Wonderful post that really lays out the central issues! I think this is particularly important: I want to be very clear not to conflate the idea of a greater public visibility of vidding as a whole with the greater public visibility of any individual fan. If vidding itself is more widely understood and recognized, that doesn't mean that any individual vidder must expose herself.

This is the one place where I can see myself possibly being useful right now, not being a vidder: academics can hopefully contextualize, theorize, look at it more generally. Having all these things happening together, i.e., greater visibility within a theoretical framework, is very important and very exciting!!!

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]laurashapiro
2006-12-05 07:29 pm UTC (link)
I am certain you can be useful! I look forward to great advances as a result of all of us working together: fans, academics, aca/fans, and media appropriators.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]kassrachel
2006-12-05 03:02 am UTC (link)
In considering these pros and cons, I want to be very clear not to conflate the idea of a greater public visibility of vidding as a whole with the greater public visibility of any individual fan.

::nod:: Well-said.

Do we want to be recognized, to become part of the historical archive? Do we want professional editing or filmmaking careers? Do we want to be able to influence the creative direction of the shows we watch? Do we want to be thought of as sane, creative, and valuable?

I'm not a vidder (yet, I suppose *g* though I wouldn't hold your breath on that front) so I don't entirely merit ownership of this "we," but from where I sit, I think there's a lot of value in being recognized -- in being able to influence the creative direction of the source texts we love -- and in being known as the creative and valuable people that we are.

I have more to say about this, but want to think it through before I do; I'll come back to this thread. :-)

(Reply to this)


[info]hederahelix
2006-12-05 03:14 am UTC (link)
I was thinking about a similar issue while I was at work today, and reading this line from your post, brought the issue back to the front of my mind again:

This is particularly galling at a time when male fannish creations and behaviors are beginning to be recognized, academically and in the wider world, as interesting and valuable contributions to culture, and male fans are forming partnerships with major media producers and getting to go pro.

Now, this was a slightly convoluted way of getting here, but, I'm going to try to recap. For reasons that don't need further exploration at this juncture, I was thinking about something Mary McDonnell said at Creation's first BSG con. Asked about the "strong female characters" or some such thing in a question, Mary was very frank about the fact that she felt that TPTB on BSG were *very* uncomfortable with the way that dynamics changed when they were shooting scenes with several of the lead actresses on the set at the same time. The distinct impression that I got from what she said was that she believed that the directors/producers/various and sundry other crew were uncomfortable seeing their workspace undergo the change that a shift in gender dynamics can have.

On the one hand, I'm thrilled to see geek/fan culture beginning to maybe stake out a place in "mainstream" society beyond the negative stereotype of the Trek fan living in his parents' basement.

On the other hand, it is, as you rightly put it, galling that it's the fan boys who are getting it. (And maybe this is because last week's ep of BSG felt so very fan *boy* to me that I'm on this kick.)

But, I think the point that I'm trying to make it that I think you hit the proverbial nail on its head here. That for all the fanboys have felt marginalized, they are still boys. And in many of the instances where fanboy texts are being recognized/deemed appropriate/not kicked to the curb, we know that, perhaps, our products won't--for a whole host of reasons, not least of which is the one that Mary McDonnell pointed out. A lot of men still get nervous when women come into a space--virtual or real--and change the dynamic.

And certainly, I think, a lot of the discomfort with women's productions is that they often foreground issues that a lot of men are still uncomfortable dealing with.

What I can say is that at least from my personal and therefore obviously anecdotal experience, I have seen a lot more people who aren't fannish who, when they get introduced to fandom--even some of its most controversial aspects--with the proper context, think, huh, that's interesting, than I have seen the ones who react defensively or by denigrating it automatically.

I don't have the big answers, and I'm still skeptical that women fans will ever get the same respect as male fans. (I mean, will a fan film that even hints at a whiff of slash ever get a stamp of approval from Lucas, for example. Even a film that doesn't intend to be slashy--would it be read as slashy because a woman made it?) But you raise a number of compelling questions and begin an important dialogue. I look forward to seeing how people react.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]laurashapiro
2006-12-06 05:37 pm UTC (link)
I agree that the fact that we're a community of women who are interested in our own readings of the source text, and often invested in telling specifically sexual stories from our perspective, is central to this debate. I think these are precisely the sort of issues that will tend to make some Big Media producers -- and some potential viewers, feel uncomfortable.

That said, I think there is precisely nothing to be gained on that front (removing legal issues from the discussion) by continuing to hide. Nobody *gives* you respect: you have to earn it. Nobody *gives* you power: you have to take it. If we go on hiding our light under a bushel, as though we are ashamed of ourselves, as though we believe we're doing something wrong, we will be in no position ever to change the media's attitudes toward women as consumers of, participants in, and characters in television and film.

It may be a longer battle than we'd like, and we may never get the same respect as male fans. Does that mean we shouldn't try?

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]mlyn
2006-12-05 03:23 am UTC (link)
Can we control the spin? Can we get something out of it?

I would hope so, but I have no idea where to start, and I think ignorance in this case won't lead to any results; that is, our stumbling around isn't going to accidentally make things happen.

Anybody here in PR?

What do we want? Do we just want to be left alone to have our fun, without threat of legal interference or invasions of the ignorant?

Earlier this year I would have said that I would have wanted to be left alone, but you're right that vidding is getting or will have greater exposure. I also don't want the menfolk showing us up…and a place in culture's history books would be nice.

Do we want professional editing or filmmaking careers?

I doubt professional editing or filmmaking careers can happen out of vidding, and I'd like to talk to those who can prove me wrong. Why? Because I'd like to become a designer of film title sequences, and vidding is a great way for me to learn those skills and teach myself. But I can't show any vid in a portfolio without getting lots of uncomfortable questions, particularly about source.

Having to come out as a vidder to professional designers is a big fear for me, despite the fact that I just posted a vid on imeem. (Nobody tell me how easily RIAA can track me on imeem. La la la, fingers in ears.)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]astolat
2006-12-05 03:46 am UTC (link)
I can't show any vid in a portfolio without getting lots of uncomfortable questions, particularly about source.

What makes you say so? Artists use copyrighted work in their portfolios all the time; tv writers write spec scripts using popular shows. You're safer using a vid in a portfolio than you are putting it out on imeem, because you aren't publishing.

The issue is that your vid has to be highly accessible, as most vids are not, and can't be context-dependent. You can't rely on the viewer having the trained ability to read vids the way a lot of vid-watchers do. But if you can do that, no reason you can't use vids. In fact, I suspect really good "recruiter" vids would be a brilliant portfolio item for someone who wanted to do commercials or trailers.

Obviously, if you make a slash/shippy vid about your favorite pairing, I would say no, you shouldn't use that, but that is less about the copyright issue and more that you rarely want to inject the sexual into a job interview, and also that simply it's a less accessible subject.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]mlyn, 2006-12-05 04:19 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]permetaform, 2006-12-05 11:15 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]yhlee, 2006-12-05 10:49 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rachelmanija, 2006-12-06 12:39 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]laurakaye, 2006-12-06 03:07 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]laurashapiro, 2006-12-08 01:55 am UTC

[info]laurashapiro
2006-12-06 05:40 pm UTC (link)
Your question about PR is interesting to me, because I'd honestly never thought of it from that perspective. I've been thinking of us coming out in the academic model, as representatives of a subculture, to educate and enlighten. I hadn't actually thought about writing press releases. (: But you're right -- that would be a great way to influence public opinion and confer legitimacy.

And up until last week I was right there with you on not showing my vids to potential employers, but I'm starting to re-think that position.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]mlyn, 2006-12-06 05:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]laurashapiro, 2006-12-06 05:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mlyn, 2006-12-06 05:52 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]laurashapiro, 2006-12-06 06:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mlyn, 2006-12-06 06:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cathexys, 2006-12-06 06:04 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mlyn, 2006-12-06 06:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]laurashapiro, 2006-12-06 06:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mlyn, 2006-12-06 06:30 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]stormwreath, 2006-12-06 07:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jackiekjono, 2006-12-07 11:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]laurashapiro, 2006-12-08 10:03 pm UTC
You Can't Stop the Signal - part 1
[info]taverymate
2006-12-05 06:05 am UTC (link)
Interesting post; it'll require more time to properly phrase my responses to some of the issues you raise. But I did want to comment on one area that you only briefly touch upon: slash.

You say: "When you compound this with potential legal issues and the celebrations of sexuality that many women's fannish creations involve, being "out" as a vidder can result in uncomfortable situations (or worse) at work, at church, with family, and with non-fannish friends." [Emphasis added]

You also say that one of the advantages of bringing vidding to wider audiences is: "the opportunity to provide context and normalize our fannish work the way traditionally male fannish work is becoming normalized

"Normalizing" traditionally female-generated media songvids is something that I think is, quite frankly, unlikely to occur quickly - if at all - for a variety of reasons, notably the enmeshment of slash with vidding history and also existing sexism in social structures.

Slash (I'm using the term here to refer to male/male homoerotica based on media creations, be it fan fiction or songvids or fan art) is inextricably linked with the history of media vidding by US female fen. While there have alwasy been gen - and het - songvids, a huge impetus (perhaps the strongest driving force?) for the development of the early vids was to produce visual counterparts to the more readily available slash fan fiction. Slash vids continue to remain a significant proportion of vidding output today, though my sense is that the proportion of gen and het vids has increased over time.

Written slash has certainly begun to enter the mainstream consciousness via an ever-increasing stream of articles and books, both academic and popular. But I would argue that slash fan fiction is nowhere near "normalized" or "unremarkable" despite over 15 years of increasing media attention that has ranged from "look at the freaks" to serious academic studies, done with respect and an attempt to provide context to myriad essays produced by slash fen themselves. Slash continues to be a sub-culture, with most participants (both producers and consumers of fanworks) heavily invested in secrecy, to a greater or lesser degree.

Are you assuming that vidding - including slash vidding - will have a faster rate of "normalization" than slash fan fiction because groundwork has already been laid and some barriers broken?

Or are you suggesting that fannish vidding can be "normalized" without slash itself being "normalized"?

I do think that the techniques of vidding will continue to gain public recognition and respect fairly quickly, as the increasing availablity of vidding software and hardware has swelled the ranks of people who create vids (fannish and otherwise) to numbers unimaginable thirty years ago. But I do NOT think that the content of fannish vids (especially slash vids) will gain similar respect or acceptance - certainly not at the same pace or ever reach the same level as that obtained by vidding techniques.

Not only do I think there will be a technique/content split with regard to public acceptance, I think that there will be a fannish content split. Non-slash vids (gen and het) will be pushed as "safe" examples of vidding - suitable for showing non-fannish friends, family, the public at large, and especially for those "vidders [seeking] to connect fannish work with professional work" (something you see as a possibility due to greater public exposure for vidding) while slash vids become the red-headed bastard step-child of vidding, perhaps beloved behind closed doors, but whose parentage is not acknowledged in public.

(I'm including het vids along with gen vids here because heterosexual relationships are the overwhelming majority of sexual relationships seen in media fandom source material, and the existence of heterosexuality is seen as normal, accepted, and expected by the American public at large. The mere inclusion of heterosexual footage, even quite explicit, does not carry with it the same potential for negative reactions as does a slash vid, albeit something much less explicit.)

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: You Can't Stop the Signal - part 1
[info]giandujakiss
2006-12-05 11:31 am UTC (link)
Yeah, I tend to agree. I think that part of the reason male creations are more accepted is that they don't transform the original text in the same way women's creations do. See, as long as the source material is created/controlled by men -- and most of it is -- it comes with a male POV, and I think women's creations are often an attempt to make it into something that women can use and enjoy. So women's creations are more transformative, and less likely to be accepted by the original source creators.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: You Can't Stop the Signal - part 1 - [info]cathexys, 2006-12-05 04:46 pm UTC
Re: You Can't Stop the Signal - part 1 - [info]giandujakiss, 2006-12-05 06:07 pm UTC
Re: You Can't Stop the Signal - part 1 - [info]laurashapiro, 2006-12-05 07:06 pm UTC
Re: You Can't Stop the Signal - part 1 - [info]keiko_kirin, 2006-12-07 09:31 pm UTC
Re: You Can't Stop the Signal - part 1 - [info]laurashapiro, 2006-12-07 10:32 pm UTC
Re: You Can't Stop the Signal - part 1 - [info]keiko_kirin, 2006-12-08 04:27 pm UTC
Re: You Can't Stop the Signal - part 1 - [info]laurashapiro, 2006-12-08 10:12 pm UTC
Re: You Can't Stop the Signal - part 1 - [info]laurashapiro, 2006-12-05 06:56 pm UTC
You Can't Stop the Signal - part 2
[info]taverymate
2006-12-05 06:07 am UTC (link)
Continued due to LJ post length constraints -

And while the techniques of vidding may gain widespread public acceptance and admiration fairly quickly, that doesn't automatically translate into acceptance and respect for all vidders. The fact that media vidding was largely female-generated in its early history inevitably means that those vids and vidders will face the same sexist attitudes and judements that women (writers, artists, musicians, etc.) and their work - either amateur or professional - continue to face when compared to creative work produced by men.

Most vidding discussions tend to focus more on the potential problems of public exposure than the potential benefits, so your post provides a needed counterpoint. That you gloss over the disadvantages and difficulties that public exposure will bring is not surprising, in my estimation, that wasn't the purpose of your post, after all.

However, I strongly disagree with you when you say:

What are the disadvantages of such exposure? There would be an awkward adjustment period during which a lot of us have to do a lot of explaining, but it seems to me that this would be fairly brief and very valuable.

The explanations may indeed be very valuable, and the resulting changes may - or may not - end up being seen as positive for vidders and vidding at large. But the "awkward adjustment period" will NOT be brief, nor simple, if vidding fandoms and vidding history are to be explained and explored in their entirety - including the role that slash has played and continues to play.

And while I'm far less sanguine than you about the potentially positive affect of widespread public exposure on media vidding and how women interact within and outside fandom, I do have a passionate interest in seeing vidding history and the accomplishments of the early vidders - and the vids themselves - documented and archived and preserved. We've already lost some early vidders (due to death, or leaving fandom, or ceasing to vid), and more and more of the early vids are lost as master tapes disappear and deteriorate before they can be preserved. If documention and preservation efforts are increased due to greater public exposure than that - at least in my opinion - will help balance out the negatives.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: You Can't Stop the Signal - part 1
[info]cathexys
2006-12-05 04:38 pm UTC (link)
I really like your point that the very gender of the producers is enough to complicate reception. Like Hederahelix says above, strong women are still a problem, and I like the way you bring in leisure and amateur status. I feel that women are often not allowed leisure time (after all, housework's never finished :) in the same way men are. Like Radway's women who his their romance reading and tried to justify it by emphasizing its educational aspects, we need to justify our investment in ways men do not.

Also, thank you for the great collection of links. I've seen most of them at some point, but collected like that they're marvelous!

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: You Can't Stop the Signal - part 2 - [info]laurashapiro, 2006-12-05 07:03 pm UTC

[info]ficbyzee
2006-12-05 08:07 am UTC (link)
Personally, I'm all for more exposure and for getting our stuff out there. Maybe I'm just saying this as a naive newbie--I'll say up front that I've only been vidding for a year and a half, and have only been really involved in fandom for about three years. But I have had the experience of being fannishly 'outed' to my parents, who at first did *not* approve of fandom at all, and in fact they denied me internet access for a while (I was living at home at the time, and one of the biggest reasons that I *did* move away from home much earlier than my peers was to remain fannish). However, it didn't take them long to accept it, and now we discuss fandom quite a bit and they're very pro-vidding, specifically.

No, I was neither sued nor fired, but I still feel like I kind of lived through the worst-case-scenario for being 'outed.' There will probably be some bad consequences, yes, but I really feel like the good will outweigh the bad. I know that was the case with my personal outing to my parents.

As for the whole slash angle, I also think that our society as a whole is growing more accepting of homosexual art in general, and there's no way that can't benefit us. There's "Brokeback Mountain," of course, and in fact slash fanfiction is being published and getting critical acclaim with Alan Moore's "Lost Girls"--and isn't that a slap in the face? Gay porn derivative art is okay as long as it's about women, and made by men. Seriously, I can't be the only one *pissed* about that. I really think it's high time that slash got some real recognition, and I would love to see the vidding community at the forefront of that.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]phantomas
2006-12-05 03:55 pm UTC (link)
Alan Moore's "Lost Girls"--and isn't that a slap in the face? Gay porn derivative art is okay as long as it's about women, and made by men.

Eeek! I didn't know about this!
I have no more deatils than what you wrote above, but consider me 'pissed off like hell' as well.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]ficbyzee, 2006-12-05 06:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]phantomas, 2006-12-05 06:49 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]laurashapiro, 2006-12-06 05:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]astolat, 2006-12-07 07:15 am UTC
pt. 1
[info]chinawolf
2006-12-05 12:41 pm UTC (link)
I've had this same discussion about slash ever since I entered fandom five years ago. The difference is that when you get slapped over the wrists for publishing slash on the web, it is just that - experience has shown that really, the most you have to fear is a cease and desist letter.

I'm enthusiastic about what happened in the last week, that suddenly, the general attitude of the very cautious half of the vidding fandom seems to have switched to one where we're tired of hiding (in plain sight, but hiding, nevertheless). It's just that I can't quite follow.

I do not think we can control the spin, for one. We don't have a lobby, at least as far as I know, and while the fanboys who vid seem to get a pass in the public eye - oh, that's cool, what those geeks do, so what if it's a little illegal - I doubt that we will. I agree with people who commented before me that gender roles seem to be the main issue here. When fanboys of all ages do something like spending all their time on gaming/internet/cars/football, that's fine, it is expected. But women?! (Please note I'm not even touching the issue of the slashiness of our vids.) Women should know better. What is the prejudice against women who are fannish? That they're strange (internet), that they don't have proper husbands and do it to pick up guys or are lesbians (sports), and I'm sure there are more. We're just not allowed to geek out over stuff and still be proper women, even in 2006. So no, I don't think we even stand a chance of being recognized as something other as freaks in the long run.

Can we benefit ourselves and our communities by embracing, rather than fighting, this new visibility?

Despite what I said above, I do still think that we might gain a little from it - like you said, through increased feedback, and because other already fannishly inclined people will recognise the art of vidding. But the problem is that once the legal suits start coming in, from the source copyright holders and the MPAA both, we will be screwed. Unfortunately, I have no doubt that those lawsuits will come, not just against a couple of vidders, but against lots of us. And the more visible we are, the sooner it will happen. Hence...

(Reply to this) (Thread)

pt. 2
[info]chinawolf
2006-12-05 12:42 pm UTC (link)
Or do we want credit for our work? Do we want to be recognized, to become part of the historical archive?
I'd rather not have credit for the vids I make. I didn't sing the song, I didn't shoot the footage. I am conscious that while yes, I do pour my creative efforts into my vids, that still doesn't mean they're mine. That's not to say I wouldn't scream bloody murder if someone else stole it and took credit for it, but in the end, the credit belongs to the musician and the show's makers, not to me. I find people who, for example, insist that they have the *right* to create fanfiction about a book simply because it is published, even when the original author asks please not to write fic in that universe, very deranged.

It would be neat if the place of the vidders in fandom was fully recognized, yes. But not at the price of being a) ridiculed (you know we will be) and b) sued.

Finally, four and a half years ago, there was a front page article in the NYT about fanfic and slash in the HP fandom. Half of the slashers thought the world would swallow them up and they would be sued to kingdom come if we didn't immediately hide for a couple of months, the other half was enthusiastic about finally going mainstream. It felt a bit like the last week in vidding. But nothing much actually happened in the wake of it. Slash is not something we hide anymore, but it's also not like in Japan, where every teenaged girl knows about yaoi and thinks it is a thing that some people like, and some people don't, almost no prejudices attached. It's almost as if nobody really cares as long as we don't force them to read it. Again, this is a book fandom we're talking about, and I think the vidders have a lot more to fear. But if that's where we could be going - a time of an unspoken truce, when we're left alone by the Companies That Be as long as we don't try to sell the vids - that would be fantastic. Given the absolute paranoia when it comes to intellectual copyright protection I doubt it is going to happen, though.

In conclusion: I applaud those of you brave enough to storm into the spotlight and demand a place that is righfully ours. But I am pretty much convinced that the advantages will not outweigh the trouble we'll get into.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: pt. 2 - [info]laurashapiro, 2006-12-06 06:51 pm UTC
Re: pt. 1 - [info]laurashapiro, 2006-12-06 06:44 pm UTC

[info]kalpurna
2006-12-05 01:08 pm UTC (link)
Further, there has been frustration among more academically-minded fans about the fact that our 30-year history and traditions are not widely known, and that other, male-dominated communities are taking credit for having "invented" this art form and being enshrined in various publications for their creative efforts and participatory cultures, even as our contributions are ignored or even mocked.

Oooh, I would absolutely LOVE to read about that history. Can you pimp me any links that talk about it? Or would you consider producing such a post yourself? It sounds so interesting!

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Vidding History Info & Resources
[info]taverymate
2006-12-05 03:54 pm UTC (link)
The problem is that the vast majority of vidding history remains oral history, and many details have already been lost, or are in danger of being lost as vidders and vids age and disappear due to a variety of circumstances. I would kill for an organized Oral History Project on vidding - particularly since many older cons are ending and the opportunities to have large numbers of longtime fen who participated in the early days of vidding in one place are becoming fewer.

On the academic front, Henry Jenkins has a chapter on vidding in "Textual Poachers" (1992) and has written various blog posts about vidding. Most recently was a post "How to Watch a Fanvid" which included some vidding history and a brief discussion of gender issues.

Henry Jenkins' blog:
http://www.henryjenkins.org/

Link to "How to Watch a Fanvid"
http://www.henryjenkins.org/2006/09/how_to_watch_a_fanvid.html

Jenkins on Star Wars, Vidding, and Fan Culture
http://www.theforce.net/fanfilms/story/CNet_Media_Expert_Talks_to_TFN_92570.asp

Camille Bacon-Smith has a few pages on vidding in "Enterprising Women" (1992).

AJ (a vidder himself, one of those interviewed) hosts a paper written by a Dutch student on vidding (2005); the paper is oriented more toward analyzing fan vids as an art form, though there is some limited discussion of vidding history.
http://hitmanyr2k.com/FanVids_LurkingGenre.doc

There have been academic presentations on vidding in the last few years at various conferences, but as far as I know, none have produced published papers yet; reports on them have surfaced on occasion on various LJs, blogs, and mailing lists. I know that there have been rumblings from various acafen wanting to publish on vidding, but few concrete details have been available so far. [info]speranza is working on something I believe; if so, I imagine that will make a big splash in vidding and general fan circles if/when it get published.

But valuable though they may be, academic sources are not where the bulk of vidding history information can be found: for that you need the vidders and vid watching fen themselves. And that type of info is scattered amongst a huge number of vid collection notes/booklets, websites, mailing list archives, LJs, blogs, conference reports, etc. There is no central collection of such information, though I'd love to see one developed. It would be a massive undertaking, however.

Kandy Fong, one of the very earliest vidders, has a couple of vid collections - with liner notes!! - that I'd highly recommend. "In the Beginning..." is a collection that covers some of her favorite vids from the very early days until 1994. "Vids by Kandy" is a collection of Kandy's own vids from throughout her vidding career. Both are only available in VHS tape but are well worth watching - especially if you're interested in vidding history. The vid collections are available through Agent With Style.
http://www.agentwithstyle.com/songvids.htm

Mary Van Deusen, an early and prolific vidder, has a website with a fair bit of her personal vidding history available. She taught a large number of vidders how to vid using VCRs, and had a strong influence on technique and style. She left fannish vidding for a number of years, but returned with last year and is now producing new vids, using digital/computer vidding equiment. She's also remastered the majority of her 300+ fan vids.

Mary's fan website for vidding (her non-fan, public site has much less info and no vid links):
http://www.iment.com/maida/keepthissecret/songvids/songvids.htm

Rache (one of the Media Cannibals and half of the Clucking Belles) did an extremely interesting post as a followup to her panel at 2005 ViVid Con (VVC) where she talks about the Geneology of Vidding through the metaphor of "Fannish Vidding Houses". Really excellent post with a lot of vidding history.
http://wickedwords.livejournal.com/294250.htm

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Vidding History Info & Resources - [info]taverymate, 2006-12-05 04:03 pm UTC
Vidding History Info & Resources - part - [info]taverymate, 2006-12-05 04:06 pm UTC
Re: Vidding History Info & Resources - part - [info]taverymate, 2006-12-05 04:10 pm UTC
Re: Vidding History Info & Resources - part - [info]elke_tanzer, 2006-12-05 05:17 pm UTC
Re: Vidding History Info & Resources - part - [info]taverymate, 2006-12-06 03:33 pm UTC
Re: Vidding History Info & Resources - part - [info]cannellfan, 2006-12-06 07:12 am UTC
Re: Vidding History Info & Resources - part - [info]taverymate, 2006-12-06 02:49 pm UTC
Re: Vidding History Info & Resources - part - [info]cannellfan, 2006-12-07 07:56 am UTC
Re: Vidding History Info & Resources - part - [info]taverymate, 2006-12-07 10:38 am UTC
Re: Vidding History Info & Resources - part - [info]cannellfan, 2006-12-07 05:18 pm UTC
Re: Vidding History Info & Resources - part - [info]par_avion, 2006-12-07 09:19 pm UTC
Re: Vidding History Info & Resources - part - [info]laurashapiro, 2006-12-08 10:05 pm UTC

[info]fairestcat
2006-12-05 02:29 pm UTC (link)
I've been thinking about this a lot recently, as I've become more interested in vidding and the vidding side of fandom and watched some of the fall out from, for example, [info]killabeez's vids getting put up on youtube.

I think there's a sea change happening here, and you see it starting with the newer vidders, but it's definitely spreading and this post is a clear illustration of that. I think, at this point, trying to keep vidding completely underground is both a) an exercise in futility and b) really counterproductive for the community. Like you said, it WILL get out. The good vids will get picked up and passed around and we can't control that but we can control how we react to it and how we handle it. If we let fear keep us from putting our work forward, side by side with the male-created content that is already out there, then we are sabotaging any chance we have of having our story heard and of getting the respect we deserve.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]cathexys
2006-12-05 04:48 pm UTC (link)
Or, worse, vids will get judged by a Machinima aesthetic that may completely miss the point!!!

I think we need to look at the commonalities with other transformative arts at the same time as we emphasize our specific identity and its context dependency. (Well, that sounded like the panel proposal wejust sent off :-)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]fairestcat, 2006-12-05 08:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]laurashapiro, 2006-12-07 06:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]laurashapiro, 2006-12-06 12:55 am UTC

[info]yhlee
2006-12-05 10:46 pm UTC (link)
I have been reading the discussion with great interest--I did not come into fandom until relatively recently, ditto vidding, and so right now I'm just trying to assimilate all the context that I simply never learned, was not exposed to, or didn't have time to read through in the past. Because I still feel new and raw and ignorant of context, I'm not sure any opinion I have is really useful as such. If I saw a convincing consensus that It Helps Vidding to Go Underground, for instance, I would probably be a sheep and follow the lead, because I really do not want to get other people into legal trouble. This is quite possibly a cowardly way of dealing with the whole situation, but in all honesty I don't feel qualified to do more than keep tabs on what's going on.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]laurashapiro
2006-12-06 12:59 am UTC (link)
Hey, I'm not gonna be calling you a coward. If you're reading and thinking about this stuff, that's all I ask.

BTW, [info]taverymate, above, provided a lot of links and information regarding vidding history and context, if you'd like to expand your education.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]elynross
2006-12-06 12:51 am UTC (link)
Hey, little girl, wanna do a PANEL at a VIDDING CON? *g* I'm thinking this might make a great discussion panel at VVC....

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]laurashapiro
2006-12-06 12:58 am UTC (link)
Funny you should ask. (: The experience of doing this conference and of running my two panels at VVC last year has taught me something important about myself: I *loathe* speaking in public. I think I do it well, but I spend the entire day (often much longer) in a state of near-panicked anxiety, sweating and sleepless.

Therefore, I will decline, I am afraid.

BUT! I will cheerfully VJ as many shows as you like. AND, what would the concom say to bringing in an academic and legal specialist in intellectual property rights to speak at the con? I met someone who said she'd be very happy to teach us what she knows, and she thinks vidding is super-cool. Any interest?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]morgandawn, 2006-12-06 01:11 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]laurashapiro, 2006-12-06 01:17 am UTC
Wants & Needs In The Deep Blue Sea
[info]morgandawn
2006-12-06 01:42 am UTC (link)
My thoughts - it is impossible to come up with a definitive list of 'what do vidders want'. We're diverse (and that does not even include the hordes of vidders that we have no connection to and are out there - right now - vidding on their own or as part of other groups.)

Having said that, here are some possible 'wants’

1. To play with sound and image without fear of legal reprisal. At no/low cost.
2. To share with other fans and those of a likeminded set
3. To promote our favorite TV shows and gain more fans
4. To influence the media industry - to get our voices of what we like/dislike in shows heard and have them market to us - fans and women.
5. To influence popular culture (win minds and influence enemies).
6. To gain recognition of our historical contributions
7. To gain recognition of our current contributions to fandom and to popular culture.
8. To be admired, adored and above all acclaimed. (I’ll take my 15m min of fame now, thank you kindly).
9. To have technology market to us and our needs.
10. To be left alone and see no change.


"What are the disadvantages of such exposure? There would be an awkward adjustment period during which a lot of us have to do a lot of explaining, but it seems to me that this would be fairly brief and very valuable. Going public is also likely to bring more vidders into the community who may challenge our values, but is that a bad thing? Ultimately, such a move may change our communities in ways we cannot anticipate, which can of course be very frightening."

1. Legal legal legal battles (as a group and as individuals)
2. Specific industry efforts (legal or technical) aimed at preventing us from doing this freely (more than the general technical/legal ones)
3. Loss of our women centered culture.
4. Loss of our fan-centered/geeky culture.
5. Co-option of our goals and purposes for other goals (ex. political or social or technological) by the media, by academics, by the industry, or by the Big Bad Wolf.

I won’t even try to weight these advantages or disadvantages or engage in debate on the likelihood of them impacting us - none of us know how this will play out. And while I find this discussion fascinating and engaging and important, I think we truly are very small pond players about to splish-splash into the big sea. All our wants/needs/and desires will mean nothing against the currents. But who knows, if we paddle hard enough, we might actually find ourselves someplace warm and and inviting.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Wants & Needs In The Deep Blue Sea
[info]keiko_kirin
2006-12-07 09:08 pm UTC (link)
Excellent, excellent points.

And while I find this discussion fascinating and engaging and important, I think we truly are very small pond players about to splish-splash into the big sea.

I feel the same. Our small pond feels big (but perhaps overcrowded at times) to *us*, but the sea is vast! With bigger fish than we're accustomed to...

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Wants & Needs In The Deep Blue Sea - [info]morgandawn, 2006-12-07 09:10 pm UTC
Re: Wants & Needs In The Deep Blue Sea - [info]laurashapiro, 2006-12-08 01:48 am UTC

[info]mimiito
2006-12-06 07:09 am UTC (link)
What a great discussion this is - and thank you Laura for laying out the issues. I hope it is okay if I jump into this conversation as another aca/fan, but an outsider to the vidding community.

I probably should state some of my biases/perspectives up front. I study and participate in the anime and manga related fandoms both in Japan and the US. I'm working right now on a study of the amv community, and am doing collaborative work on yaoi fandoms in Japan. I find myself conflicted about a lot of the issues raised here, though the situation with anime/manga fandom is quite unique in many ways. As an academic, the quandry of course is that I am part of making hidden practices known to other publics, and I can benefit professionally from that too. So there is an inherent conflict of interest there that I try to navigate with care.

Given this, it may sound like a rationalization, but I agree with the statements that it is going to be harder and harder to keep things like amvs and vidding out of the public eye. For better and for worse, the Internet breaks down boundaries of visibility and publicity. Vidders have a lot to teach the newcomers to online fandom and remix culture. I don't mean to minimize the risks of exposure, which I am sure are very real, I do believe that the visibility of vidding has benefits to the culture at large.

I see the situation in Japan, and to some extent among the anime fandom overseas, and have watched yaoi and otaku culture more generally move from the margins to becoming a subculture that influences the cultural mainstream. As chinawolf mentioned, yaoi genres have always been less underground in Japan than in the US. But in the past few years there has been a major shift. Now you can find boy-love novels and manga being openly sold in popular aisles of mainstream bookstores and popular anime series are being made around explicit boy-love themes. This was not the case even five years ago.

My sense of the trends is that this is not just in Japan that there is a cultural shift towards acknowleding fannish and participatory forms of media engagement. As noted, Henry Jenkins has been writing in this vein as well for quite some time. More and more people will do things that look like vidding and maybe even slash vidding, with or without the connections to the historical vidding community. I think kids often pick up amv making because it is easy to find on the net. Selfishly, as someone who works on media education and kids, I wish vidding was visible to more kids, particularly girls, who tend towards alternative reads of US television.

Opening the floodgates to new kinds of fans of course has its upsides and downsides for existing communities. I guess that is what this discussion is about... This kind of debate rages among yaoi doujin authors in Japan, where the Internet has radically changed the scope of distribution of their work and lowered the barriers to entry to the community dramatically. This kind of traffic has diluted the community for sure, but it is also behind the recent recognition of yaoi in the mainstream.

I'm sure none of these arguments for diffuse public benefit or cultural change is enough to outweigh what it would mean to risk greater legal exposure as an individual. As someone on the outside, though, I'm connecting with other academics and activist types and trying in my own small way to describe to the culture at large what the public interest is in allowing fan cultural production and sharing. Of course there is no guarantee that we'll succeed in changing public opinion or policy, but personally, I think it is worth a shot. I am looking foward to staying tuned and learning more from the viddng community on these issues.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]cathexys
2006-12-06 03:22 pm UTC (link)
Mimi, I'm so glad you acknowledge the precarious position acafans find themselves in as we do have a vested interest in this discussion (of course, if we're really honest, that vested interest goes both ways--our objects of study being readily available makes ethical issues less difficult, but we're also suddenly losing our "privileged" insight and access :-). Otoh, I think academics can be a form of legitimating voice, as Henry, for example, has been for a long time now for media fandom in general.

Selfishly, as someone who works on media education and kids, I wish vidding was visible to more kids, particularly girls, who tend towards alternative reads of US television. I've been thinking about this a bit, because I'm really wondering whether it *is* visible for girls interested in 'alternative reads' or not. I think media fandom is an interesting case where so much of it is out in a semi-public way, i.e., media fannish space once entered are pretty open. And the modes of entry may not be via vids (and I guess that'd be your point?), but once you've found your first story, rec list, whatever, vids are there as well. [And i'm not just talking about this current trend toward youtube etc., but really since vids moved from mailed VHS to downloadable files.]

I'm looking forward to hearing more about the similarities and differences between media and anime fandom, both their mainstreamings, and the results it has (had) on the communities.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-12-06 05:46 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mimiito, 2006-12-06 05:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cathexys, 2006-12-06 06:10 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]mimiito, 2006-12-07 05:45 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jackiekjono, 2006-12-06 06:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]doki, 2006-12-06 08:22 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jackiekjono, 2006-12-07 12:01 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]mimiito, 2006-12-07 05:35 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jackiekjono, 2006-12-07 10:08 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]laurashapiro, 2006-12-08 09:59 pm UTC

[info]cupidsbow
2006-12-07 09:17 am UTC (link)
Thank you for posting this; it's an issue that's going to go around a few more times, I think, before we come to grips with it as a community. But as you say, our fanwork becoming part of the larger public domain is going to happen with or wihout our input, and we really need to discuss this.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]laurashapiro
2006-12-08 10:07 pm UTC (link)
I'm very glad you think the discussion is valuable. I hope it continues to percolate through fandom.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]maidavids
2006-12-08 01:52 am UTC (link)
I've always been open about music videos, fandom and slash since 1985 and have never had any problems at work or in personal contexts. I've found most non-fans to be fascinated by the concept of music videos. About 1986, Creation Cons showed half hour sets of my videos advertised on convention flyers. Audiences, while more male than female, were enthusiastic. Though the sets were mostly gen, there always were some on the edge of slash and that caused no problems.

I've shown music videos at IBM Research meetings (e.g. New Math) and they were always enthusiastically received. When I made videos at IBM, I taught using music videos because working to voice is more forgiving than the type of editing we do, and I wanted to teach them high standards. The Research VP I worked for would take music videos from me when he was tight on time, and they were shown as part of his keynote addresses around the world. I'm assuming they were well received because he came back for more.

When invited to give a talk on music videos at the MIT Media Lab, the response was that the work was, in fact, high art. I became close to an assoc producer at WGBH after I got him an IBM job to make a video for someone I wasn't willing to work for. He enjoyed the videos and, when he went to teach at Cal Tech, taught music videos to his class. He came back to visit after I retired from IBM and showed me some magnificent videos his class had made. American Pie to Thelma and Louise was amazing.

Once retired, I agreed to let the local cable station show half hour sets of my videos every week. They were advertised by color flyers in store windows, and I heard back that the videos AND the flyers became collectibles. I taught several of the people from the TV station and the men were especially enthusiastic about the music videos, though their creations were a little bloody for my taste. I have to admit that I closed my eyes during some of the showings. They also took my bird music videos and used them as a contest during a town square fair. One of the men who was out of his mind over the videos was the most marvelously strange character I can describe. He'd leave me notes on empty french fry boxes. Totally strange as out of some long ago beat club of the 40's or 50's. I adored him, and would never have met him without the videos.

Since I live in a tiny town in Massachusetts, I didn't feel it was a great exposure to liability to have the videos shown there. I didn't allow people to take them to show in other towns. I wasn't really thinking about music copyright liability in those days, just video. And that was softened by the fact that the stars of Blakes 7 and the producer came up to my room to see the videos, and seemed not at all disturbed by the legal aspects. The most wonderful thing was to watch a roomful of fans watching Gareth Thomas (Blake) watching the videos. Apparently he was known for not watching his own shows, but he thought this would be a safe way to see B7 since the stories were gone. He'd clearly not seen himself shot at the end, because the first time it occured in a video he took a step backwards. He and the producer were the ones who got me making videos from my own shooting, when they asked why I used their video instead of shooting my own. That was a conversation that could have been answered in a bar for several hours, but was too serious for that context. This was a very different reaction than Paul Darrow (Avon) had on the one or two occasions he saw them. He also had copies. Darrow understood exactly what I was doing, which is, I think, because he was a fan as much as we were.

The second time I saw this discontinuity of understanding, though, was when I brought my videos to the final day of class in Editing the Scene from the editor of The Pawnbroker. Mine were the only music videos there, and Rosenblum's reaction was confusion at the concept, which I think was fundamentally the same reaction as Gareth Thomas' because their world involved continuity as an editing concept, while we make a different animal.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]laurashapiro
2006-12-08 10:09 pm UTC (link)
I can't thank you enough for providing your perspective. It's really valuable to have the words and experiences of people who have been vidding, and in fandom, for so many years available to those of us who are newer. I am encouraged by all of your positive experiences showing vids outside of our community.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]maidavids, 2006-12-08 10:26 pm UTC

[info]duskpeterson
2006-12-08 06:14 am UTC (link)
(Here from [info]metafandom.)

First of all, your post does a terrific job of outlining the pros and cons.

I'm going to have to approach this from a fanfic perspective rather than a fanvid perspective, since I've never created the latter. The issues are similar, though vidders undoubtedly face greater legal problems.

I've created litslash based on books by authors who are opposed to fan fiction about their stories. I've never publicly posted those stories, and I'd be upset if someone publicly posted them - not because I thought I was likely to be sued, but because the stories might hurt the feelings of authors whom I respect. So I totally understand the upset that vidders feel when their videos are posted without their permission.

I have a harder time understanding the "They won't understand us" argument. As you say, the reason people don't understand fanvids is because they usually aren't exposed to them. In a world where fanvids were commonly circulated, fanvids would seem ordinary, not something to poke fun at.

I saw "Closer" at a slash con in June, and what went through my mind when I saw it was, "This is as good as anything on television. What a pity that nobody outside the fan fiction community will ever see this."

So my immediate response, when I first saw the news articles about "Closer," was, "Fantastic! These vidders have received the recognition they deserve!" Immediately afterwards, I discovered that the vid had been posted without the vidders' permission, and then I was sorry for them, of course. But what struck me as I went from Website to Website, reading non-fan folks' comments, was how the majority of people whose sites I was visiting didn't make fun of the video or sneer at it. Lots of them were saying, "Wow, this is terrific." The next time they encounter a fanvid, even if it's not as well done, it's likely their knee-jerk reaction won't be to dismiss it.

There's another aspect of this I think we should keep in mind: If fan fiction had not been on the Internet, I wouldn't be part of the fan fiction community. I would simply never have had the opportunity to read fan fiction, because - until I encountered slash while surfing for something else - I never hung out in fandom circles.

How many potential vidders are out there who have never seen a fanvid because, until now, fanvids haven't been widely circulated? How many folks are over at YouTube watching a fanvid right now, thinking, "This is great! I'd like to make one of these myself!" Hopefully, in their search for information on how to do so, they'll discover forums like [info]vidding and become part of the fandom world.

Without that type of continual recruitment, fanvidding will die. That may seem odd to say, given the popularity of fanvids, but some highly popular activities do die, and the most common reason they die is because barriers are put up to prevent outsiders from learning of the community's activities.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]laurashapiro
2006-12-10 03:27 pm UTC (link)
Thank you for your thoughts.

As you say, the reason people don't understand fanvids is because they usually aren't exposed to them. In a world where fanvids were commonly circulated, fanvids would seem ordinary, not something to poke fun at.

I certainly hope that's the case. I feel that the fact that a lot of our fanwork comes from a place of female desire is going to be potentially weird/uncomfortable to the average observer, and this is why many vidders worry about wider exposure. For me, it's actually a motivating force; anything I can do to help normalize women's pleasure is a good thing.

the majority of people whose sites I was visiting didn't make fun of the video or sneer at it.

Interesting. I saw that as well, but I heard other people saying that wherever they saw it posted, "Closer" was being laughed at.

How many potential vidders are out there who have never seen a fanvid because, until now, fanvids haven't been widely circulated?

This is a great point that we haven't really discussed here, the idea of recruiting more vidders by going public, the idea of bringing in more fans. Frankly, I think a lot of people don't actually want that to happen. (: As our numbers grow, our communities change, and not everybody wants that -- the explosion from zines/VHS to the Internet/digital has been troubling enough for fandom. I happen to like the idea of reaching out to potential fans with our work, but I suspect I may be in the minority.

I don't believe fanvidding will die. With or without active recruitment, vidding has grown from something only a literal handful of people knew how to do to something thousands of people do, and over a relatively short period of time. Fans will continue to stumble upon fandom, will continue to make vids whether they come up with it independently or as a result of seeing other people's vids. But I do think that active promotion of, for example, a community's values and aesthetics would help us bring in people to our respective communities who felt welcome there.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]morgandawn, 2006-12-10 05:46 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]laurashapiro, 2006-12-11 05:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]duskpeterson, 2006-12-11 06:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]laurashapiro, 2006-12-11 06:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]duskpeterson, 2006-12-11 06:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kitkatbyte, 2007-02-04 04:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]duskpeterson, 2006-12-10 11:30 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]laurashapiro, 2006-12-11 05:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]duskpeterson, 2006-12-11 05:56 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]laurashapiro, 2006-12-15 05:30 pm UTC

[info]joeyfalconetti
2006-12-09 05:50 pm UTC (link)
Thank you, that was some food for thought.

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[info]laurashapiro
2006-12-09 07:40 pm UTC (link)
Glad you found it useful.

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[info]kitkatbyte
2007-02-04 03:40 pm UTC (link)
But we can't stop people from finding and watching vids, especially since the advent of YouTube and similar sites. We can't stop people from sharing our vids without our consent or even our knowledge.

Ain't that the truth. I don't know about everyone else, but I have given up on asking anyone to take anything down. It's pointless. When I see my vids on youtube, I just read the comments and shrug.

the potential for vidders to connect fannish work with professional work, working professionally in the entertainment industry if they want to

That sounds like a fairytale.

the potential to generate widespread support for us in any legal battles we may encounter (joining forces with other DIY video communities, representation of the Electronic Frontiers Foundation, creation of legal defense funds, etc.

This sounds very interesting. But who will drive this? I imagine the issue will be discussed at Vividcon 2007, but I don't think anything will happen unless some sort of formal organization is formed.

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[info]laurashapiro
2007-02-04 04:39 pm UTC (link)
That sounds like a fairytale.

It's actually not; I can list a couple examples I know of where it's happened already, including the recent DVD release of Forever Knight S3, which contained fannish vids as extras (Sony negotiated the music rights for the vidder), and similar examples in the anime side of things. There are numerous professional crossover stories in both machinima and anime music videos; similar stories in vidding are rare, but I think that's mostly because we hide.

This sounds very interesting. But who will drive this? I imagine the issue will be discussed at Vividcon 2007, but I don't think anything will happen unless some sort of formal organization is formed.

I think that for the legal defense fund idea, yeah, you'd have to have a leader to drive it. But in terms of just creating awareness and generating support, I'm not sure that a formal organization is necessary.

As for who would spearhead such things, I figure anyone can volunteer. I'd put some money on [info]astolat, who has already done so much for the community and has been pretty public about her fannish endeavors already.

I should mention that there is a DIY Media Conference in the planning stages right now, in which I am a participant, that is bringing together various videomakers from various communities, all of which have some sort of controversial aspects (unauthorized use of borrowed footage, radical subject matter, etc.) with academics and industry representatives. Academia is taking a leadership role in this, but their big goal for the festival is to get the different communities talking with one another.

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[info]cyborganize
2007-10-24 05:45 pm UTC (link)
I want to marry this post.

I'd like to cite it in my diss, and I'm here (rather belatedly, sorry) to ask permission. I figured if anyone's work is in the public-public rather than the private-public it's yours, but such customs exist for a reason.

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[info]laurashapiro
2007-10-24 06:40 pm UTC (link)
Actually, I appreciate you asking, if only because otherwise I'd never know about being cited in your diss!

Yes, of course, feel free, etc. And thank you!

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