knight_of_pan ([info]knight_of_pan) wrote in [info]vegetarians,
@ 2006-12-26 16:04:00
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compassion in vegetarianism (perhaps part I) (meat is murder)
I know a lot of vegetarians like to consider themselves more compassionate than the average person. However, compassion is more than just what you do or do not eat. Just like many will argue that veganism is a lifestyle and not just a diet, so is compassion. What you do or do not eat does not make you a compassionate person. You can more than make up for the compassion you show towards animals you don't eat by being non-compassionate for your fellow humans.

So, what is the definition of compassion (from Wordnet)?

1. a deep awareness of and sympathy for another's suffering
2. the humane quality of understanding the suffering of others and wanting to do something about it


Now, that seems pretty reasonable. A compassionate person understands the suffering of another and wishes to relieve that suffering. He has a deep awareness of and a sympathy for the suffering of others. A compassionate person would not wish harm on others, rather he would wish that others would not suffer at all.

So, if you consider yourself compassionate towards animals, yet attack humans and increase their suffering because they don't agree with you, are you compassionate? Not in the least. You simply choose who/what you wish to harm. But, by choosing to harm others, you have left compassion far far behind. By refusing to understand the predicament of others, you have left compassion behind. A key part of compassion is understanding.

So, this brings me to my first point. It's probably the stupidest phrase I've ever heard and it comes from the vegetarian movement. "Meat is murder". That is stupid on so many levels. Many people, when they hear that phrase come out of someone's mouth, consider that person an idiot. I'm usually one of those people.

First, it's absolutely poor grammar. You have two nouns with an "is" between them. Substitute the words. That's much like saying "Tree is truck". It makes absolutely no sense. It is the babble of idiots.

Second, let's take murder as a verb...as if you were going to murder someone. So, let's look up the definition of meat:

1. the flesh of animals as used for food.

Ok. Fair enough. So, what is an animal's flesh killing? How can it be in a perpetual state of murder? To do that, it would have to constantly be killing. Is that what the person who says this phrase means, that meat is, by nature, running around and hacking people up? That by its very existence, it is killing people? Again, the babble of idiots.

Ok. We know what they are TRYING to say even though they are failing miserably at it. All your bases are belong to us. They are TRYING to say that killing animals is murder. They're not trying to say that meat, the product you get from animals you kill, is itself murder. We just have to accept these people aren't too bright and give them some leniency with language and communication.

So, let's look up the definition of murder:

Law. the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation or occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson (first-degree murder), and murder by intent but without deliberation or premeditation (second-degree murder).

Now, this is the generally accepted definition of murder. Now I know you can look in the dictionary and find:

to kill or slaughter inhumanly or barbarously.

but that definition is simply not used. We use slaughter for that. Why is that definition not used in normal modern english? BECAUSE MURDER IS A CRIMINAL ACT.

Think about that. Murder is a criminal act. In war, you don't say the soldiers murder the enemy. They KILL the enemy. That is not murder. There ARE cases of murder during war. We have soldiers facing charges of murder in Iraq. But, the act of killing another human is not necessarily murder.

Another case: If you kill someone in self-defense, people don't say you MURDERED them in self-defense. It is said you killed them in self-defense. As a matter of fact, you can claim self-defense in a murder trial and, if proven, you're found innocent of murder. Killing in self-defense is not murder.

So, murder is a legal definition. It is different from killing. Killing animals is not murder and cannot be murder because it is not covered under murder legally. Now, I know some will say that the law is biased towards humans. That may be true. We have many laws on the books concerning the welfare of animals, however. But, even if it were biased, killing animals still does not constitute murder.

Second, do you TRULY believe that killing animals is murder? Then I have two questions for you:

1. How many butchers etc. have you killed in self defense? As you can see from wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-defense_(theory)

self defense is not only to defend YOURSELF, but others as well. If you truly believed someone were a serial killer, was killing others, was going to continue killing others, and was not going to be apprehended before they killed again, then wouldn't the compassionate thing to do be to kill THEM and save all their future victims? Absolutely. By the killing of the one you stop the gruesome deaths of many. You alleviate the suffering of others.

Now, we know that serial killers cannot be rehabilitated. So, if killing animals were truly murder, wouldn't the most appropriate way to stop them be to kill them? You know serial killers will strike again until locked up for life or executed. So there is no other option. How many serial killers that stake out animals have you killed?

2. Have you any plans on locking up everyone that has ever hired another to kill an animal or done so themselves? Have you ever eaten meat? Where do you want to spend your time in prison for murder? Do you consider yourself a murderer? Since society won't put you to death, are you planning on executing yourself since you repeatedly ate meat before you became a vegetarian?

As we can see, there is no statute of limitations for first degree murder:

However, no state has a statute of limitations on first degree murder. It can be prosecuted at any time. For other degrees of murder, there may be a time after which a prosecution cannot be brought. For example, in your state, Florida, second degree murder, third degree murder, and manslaughter all provide for a four year statute of limitations.

Now, wouldn't you say that killing an animal, if it were murder, would be an act of premeditation? You thought about buying that meat beforehand. So, you definitely committed first degree murder if that's the case and there is no statute of limitations on that.

So, where do you want all your loved ones to spend their time in prison? Or, perhaps, what state do you wish them to be executed in? Perhaps Florida? It's a nice place with beaches and such. Perhaps you wish your family to be executed there. If killing animals is murder, then don't you think that willful premeditated murder time and again is justification for execution? In many states it would be.

So you see, the "Meat is murder" slogan is absolutely stupid and ludicrous. Not only is it poor grammar, it's absolutely silly on so many levels. How does this fit in with compassion?

When you announce to a meat-eater that "meat is murder", not only have you announced yourself as an idiot, you've told them that you consider them a murderer. You've told them that you think they should be thrown in prison and executed for their crimes. You have verbally stated that you don't think they have the right to walk on the street as you and share freedom with you. You have said that, in many states, they don't even deserve to live.

Is that compassion? Does it promote reasonable discussion or are you simply attacking another in the most emotionally charged way you can for not being like you? Have you concerned yourself with their suffering, or merely lashed out at them for making choices that you don't agree with?

If you don't think everyone who has eaten meat at any point in their life deserves a life in prison, then I'd be willing to argue that you DON'T think meat is murder and that you're just trying to attack others for making choices you don't agree with. That is deplorable.



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[info]matrexius
2006-12-27 12:56 am UTC (link)
The dictionary really isn't the best basis for philosophical arguments. Try to argue that the definitions of "truth" and "justice" you might find in Webster's are definitive, and you'll be laughed out of the room. You might have an abstract sense of what they mean, but using the dictionary as the end-all be-all definition source is absurd.

Similarly, "murder" is colloquially understood to mean something along the lines of "unjustly taking the life of another." In that sense, meat is akin to murder. In any case, our culture revolves around soundbites and simple, easily understood slogans. "Meat is murder" might be grammatically suspect, but it gets its point across.

That said, screaming "meat is murder" at omnis probably won't win them over.

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[info]matrexius
2006-12-27 01:00 am UTC (link)
Also, you didn't give much of any indication in your post whether you consider yourself compassionate or not. If you do, you might want to avoid the "idiot" vitriol. If you don't, ignore this post.

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[info]knight_of_pan
2006-12-27 01:29 am UTC (link)
Similarly, "murder" is colloquially understood to mean something along the lines of "unjustly taking the life of another." In that sense, meat is akin to murder.

Even if you define it that way, meat would not be akin to murder. Meat is a thing. It could be the BI-product of murder if you use your definition perhaps, even then we'd have to decide if it's unjustly taking the life of another...but meat itself would not be murder.

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[info]matrexius
2006-12-27 02:16 am UTC (link)
Fair enough. Perhaps "Meat comes from a corpse" would be more accurate, but it doesn't have the same zing to it.

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[info]seamusmclean
2006-12-27 02:50 am UTC (link)
Rather a bit of a literalist, are we? It seems pretty painfully obvious that the use of "meat" in the expression isn't referring to the physical object, but rather to the whole concept of killing an animal to eat it.

Our language is capable of a lot more subtlety than you give it credit for. If I say "my back is killing me," obviously I don't mean that my back is actively causing my life to end, but the meaning is still clear.

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[info]jensa_chan
2006-12-27 01:22 am UTC (link)
In war, you don't say the soldiers murder the enemy.

Maybe you don't.

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[info]knight_of_pan
2006-12-27 01:30 am UTC (link)
I would say the majority of people differentiate between killing as an act of war and murder.

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[info]bennizzlejizzle
2006-12-27 01:33 am UTC (link)
i don't.
killing, for whatever purpose, is killing nonetheless.

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[info]knight_of_pan
2006-12-27 01:36 am UTC (link)
Yes, but killing does not equal murder except in certain cases. Everyone kills. You and I kill vegetables to eat. We also kill airborne bacteria and viruses constantly. We kill bugs when we walk or drive. We are constantly killing. However, we are not constantly murdering.

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[info]seamusmclean
2006-12-27 03:00 am UTC (link)
Well, for a lot of vegetarians, the motivation for it is that we see animals as being in the same group as humans, not the same group as plants. So killing a person to eat them and killing a plant to eat it are qualitatively different things, the former clearly falling under the category of murder and the latter not. Killing a person to eat them and killing an animal to eat them are, for many of us, at most maybe only quantitatively different, and so both would be murder (although some might see the latter as not as horrible a form of murder).

I'm curious, from this and other postings, why you are a vegetarian? You seem to post rather frequently about how opposed you are to people supporting animal rights, and seem to have a very poor opinion of people who are vegetarian for animal rights reasons.

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[info]knight_of_pan
2006-12-27 03:13 am UTC (link)
Well, for a lot of vegetarians, the motivation for it is that we see animals as being in the same group as humans, not the same group as plants. So killing a person to eat them and killing a plant to eat it are qualitatively different things, the former clearly falling under the category of murder and the latter not.

I wouldn't say for MANY vegetarians...but definitely a little vocal minority...which was one reason I put up this post...to generate discussion. But, I don't know any vegetarians personally that if a baby and a cow were trapped in a burning house that they wouldn't go for the baby and then decide whether or not to risk it for the cow.

I'm curious, from this and other postings, why you are a vegetarian? You seem to post rather frequently about how opposed you are to people supporting animal rights, and seem to have a very poor opinion of people who are vegetarian for animal rights reasons.

Nope, you read a lot into what I write. I'm not sure of your motives with that one, but you do...and did with the animal sacrifice post as well.

I've never once posted that I was opposed to people supporting animal rights. I am not.

I don't have a poor opinion of people who are vegetarian for animal rights reasons.

I have problems with hypocrisy, lying to further one's cause, violence, etc. But, not all animal rights activists do those things...just a vocal minority.

Why am I a vegetarian? Well, there are several reasons...my health...the fact I don't need to in order to survive..so it'd just cause useless suffering...etc. Does that mean I have to buy into every piece of rhetoric that comes out of the animal rights' movement? No. I make my own choices. Personally, I would love to see the leadership of Peta behind bars if it's true that they've done half of what they're suspected of (supporting ALF, promoting violence, etc.).

People convince themselves they believe something because they want to belong or they think they somehow SHOULD believe it without researching or discussing alternate views. Occasionally I'll post something I believe that differs from those views in order to show that there IS dissent and freedom of choice. You don't automatically have to buy into anything, no matter how ludicrous, in order to somehow be a "good" vegetarian.

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[info]seamusmclean
2006-12-27 03:18 am UTC (link)
We must run in rather different circles, as a majority of the vegetarians I know are largely motivated by animal rights concerns. But that might be a quirk of the folks I know.

Although I do agree that most wouldn't hesitate to save the baby before the cow. Most of the animal rights folks I know still value human life more than animal, but they view it as just a matter of degree, rather than feeling that there's something intrinsically different about people.

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[info]knight_of_pan
2006-12-27 03:24 am UTC (link)
Most of the animal rights folks I know still value human life more than animal, but they view it as just a matter of degree, rather than feeling that there's something intrinsically different about people.

I don't understand that one...if there is no difference between human and animal life...then why value one over the other? You have to view human life as somehow different if you're going to make the difference in degree or whatever..

I'm not saying that I don't think animals have worth. They're not worth as much to me as humans...but they do deserve happiness. I think all life deserves to live as free from suffering as possible...whether it be animal or plant.

But, I don't understand your less but equal stance...at least that's how I'm reading it.

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[info]seamusmclean
2006-12-27 03:28 am UTC (link)
I think it sounds like we actually have rather similar views - that animals deserve happiness, but aren't worth as much as humans. I'm not saying that animals are equal to humans, but that the ways in which I feel they are worth less are not as pronounced as how most people feel - I feel that killing an animal is not as bad as killing a person, but is still pretty awful, the same way that stealing someone's TV is not as bad as stealing everything in their house, but is still a similar sort of crime.

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[info]knight_of_pan
2006-12-27 03:37 am UTC (link)
We do have somewhat similar views, but there is something I'll disagree on:

I feel that killing an animal is not as bad as killing a person, but is still pretty awful, the same way that stealing someone's TV is not as bad as stealing everything in their house, but is still a similar sort of crime.

I'll disagree on that because of one major reason. Humans are omnivores. That is what we are naturally. A human eating an animal is no more "wrong" than any other animal eating another animal. Through advances we have made as a species, some of us are able to choose to no longer eat animals. Everyone cannot make that choice due to reasons of health, finances, time constraints, etc. But, WE are the deviation from the natural norm....not them.

So, do I think it is a CRIME for them to do what we have been doing ever since the human race walked upright? No. if it weren't for the advances we've made, not eating meat might be a death sentence...and eating meat was probably responsible for the development of our brains to the level they are today. A human eating meat and a rat eating meat isn't much different. However, we have a choice we can make to decrease suffering. Not everyone is in a position to make it. But, it doesn't make everyone else criminals for not making it.

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[info]bennizzlejizzle
2006-12-27 01:34 am UTC (link)
what, exactly, is your purpose for posting this here?

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[info]knight_of_pan
2006-12-27 01:36 am UTC (link)
it promotes discussion

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[info]diepunyhuman
2006-12-27 02:45 am UTC (link)

Try [info]vegandebate for that sort of thing.

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[info]knight_of_pan
2006-12-27 02:50 am UTC (link)
Actually,

A. It's a vegetarian issue and not a vegan one and
B. Since I started and run this community, I sorta have a say in whether or not it belongs here

But thanks for playing

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[info]diepunyhuman
2006-12-27 04:55 pm UTC (link)

Hah, you think I don't remember you, 'tannhaus'

I'm out of here, then.

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[info]knight_of_pan
2006-12-27 06:05 pm UTC (link)
Oh..you remember my name...and that proves? Maybe that you read the big post I made in here saying that I was changing the name? Maybe you noticed that big email address smack dab in the middle of the profile that says tannhaus@gmail.com?

But, you apparently didn't remember I was the mod..

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[info]seamusmclean
2006-12-27 02:54 am UTC (link)
:) Good luck. This is the same guy who posted before about the value of ritual sacrifice of animals, for the purpose of "promoting discussion," belittled any and all vegetarians who are opposed to such ritual sacrifice, and then wouldn't engage in any rational discussion with anyone who disagreed.

But, yeah, it's his community, not ours.

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[info]knight_of_pan
2006-12-27 03:01 am UTC (link)
This is the same guy who posted before about the value of ritual sacrifice of animals, for the purpose of "promoting discussion," belittled any and all vegetarians who are opposed to such ritual sacrifice, and then wouldn't engage in any rational discussion with anyone who disagreed.

Perhaps you should make sure it's not there before you try to revise history and say I tried to belittle everyone that disagreed.

http://community.livejournal.com/vegetarians/355878.html

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[info]seamusmclean
2006-12-27 03:10 am UTC (link)
Belittling may have been a poor choice of words, but I certainly felt you showed a bit of a patronizing, "I need to explain the world to you" attitude towards those who disagreed - you seemed to want others to put in the effort to understand your views, but wouldn't put in the effort to understand the views of people who were disagreeing with you. To me, that implied a certainty on your part that other people's views weren't worth considering deeply, while yours were views that we all should be spending time pondering.

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[info]knight_of_pan
2006-12-27 03:16 am UTC (link)
And who do you think I did that with? Let's see, you disagreed and got all bent out of shape,

kidincurious? http://community.livejournal.com/vegetarians/355878.html?thread=3362342#t3362342

or valkin? http://community.livejournal.com/vegetarians/355878.html?thread=3376422#t3376422

You know....if you look at that....I was very polite to them. They were polite to me..I was polite to them. So MAYBE just maybe, I only get an attitude with someone if they get an attitude with me first.... could it be?

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[info]seamusmclean
2006-12-27 03:24 am UTC (link)
Just prior to that, when someone said that they didn't personally feel it was right, you accused them of trying to impose their morality on others and force others to worship how they told them to.

The others, though, who said that they liked what you said, even if they had some mild disagreements, yes, you were polite to them. You provide interesting viewpoints here, and you engage in interesting discussion with some people, but you can also act rather dismissively to people who disagree.

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[info]knight_of_pan
2006-12-27 03:26 am UTC (link)
Just prior to that, when someone said that they didn't personally feel it was right, you accused them of trying to impose their morality on others and force others to worship how they told them to.

Nope...I didn't accuse them personally of anything. We were discussing. As far as kidincurious and valkin...read again. We were polite to each other but TOTALLY disagreeing.

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[info]seamusmclean
2006-12-27 03:32 am UTC (link)
Want to say, at this point, that in the other thread up above we seem to be engaging in a fairly productive and useful discussion. So there's some clear evidence against some of my earlier accusations. I'm inclined to chalk this up to the general internet problem of it being easier to read antagonism into things than is often there. At any rate, I'm going to stop this argument, as it's both off-topic and rather pointless, and instead try to focus on the parts of the discussion here that are proving rather productive and interesting.

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[info]vagueness_game
2006-12-27 04:52 pm UTC (link)
Wow...He's a mod...I think he trumps you.

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[info]nidhogg
2006-12-27 02:45 am UTC (link)
First, it's absolutely poor grammar. You have two nouns with an "is" between them. Substitute the words. That's much like saying "Tree is truck". It makes absolutely no sense. It is the babble of idiots.

This is untrue. Your argument centers around the false assumption that all nouns work similarly. "Tree" and "truck" are count nouns, meaning that they can be modified by numerals, articles, determiners, etc. It is ungrammatical, therefore, to refer to "tree", but it is perfectly grammatical to refer to "a tree", or "the tree", or "five trees". Same with truck. Therefore, while "Tree is truck" is grammatically incorrect, "The tree is a truck" is perfectly correct grammatically, although it doesn't make much sense--an example of the exact same construction that makes perfect sense might be "The baby is a girl."

"Meat" and "murder" (at least in the sense that they are being used in the phrase "Meat is murder")--unlike "tree", "truck", "baby" and "girl"--are mass nouns, which do not require any sort of article or number. Other examples of mass nouns are "water", "information" and "freedom". We don't really talk about having a water or two freedoms. We quite often refer to them without article or modifier, so one would say, "Information is useful", not "An information is useful".

This is a bit confusing, because "murder" can refer to either a specific instance (as in, "The murder occurred last night"), in which case it is a count noun, or the greater concept of murder (as in, as you put it, "Murder is a criminal act"), in which case it is a mass noun.

To return to the original statement, "Meat is murder" is grammatically identical to "The baby is a girl", except that it uses the rules of mass nouns rather than count nouns. It is also grammatically identical to the old phrase, "Knowledge is power". "Meat", "the baby" and "knowledge" all serve as subjects; "murder", "a girl" and "power" all serve as nominal predicatives.

It just bothers me to see someone calling someone else stupid for doing something completely legitimate.

Ok. Fair enough. So, what is an animal's flesh killing? How can it be in a perpetual state of murder? To do that, it would have to constantly be killing. Is that what the person who says this phrase means, that meat is, by nature, running around and hacking people up? That by its very existence, it is killing people? Again, the babble of idiots.

Actually, it's an example of metonymy, an incredibly common part of not only rhetoric but basic human discourse. If you're going to get mad at people for saying "meat" when they mean "killing animals to produce meat", you also have to get mad at people for saying "dish" when they actually mean "food that is on the dish" (as in "What dishes are being offered tonight?"), "White House" when they actually mean "presidential administration" (as in "The White House released a statement today condemning etc. etc."), etc.

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[info]ubersilver
2006-12-27 07:10 am UTC (link)
HI, I wanted to say, that I find this discussion coincidental to a discussion I had this Monday with my sister in law, when we were watching the Discovery Channel marathon of "Mythbusters" and they were trying to cook a turkey via an antenna on a news truck (microwave), and tried it also on the radar of a ship. Needless to say, they just ended up blowing up a turkey carcass inside a microwave, (and the microwave itself).

What struck me as odd, (and gross) was that they were tossing turkey carcasses around like they were experimenting on old shoes.

I just found myself alone in the concept that it was bizarre to be tossing around frozen animal carcasses for the sake of entertainment, and lacking in compassion. (My exact words) I guess it just made me sad.

Well, just my contribution....thanks for the topic.

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[info]knight_of_pan
2006-12-27 08:10 am UTC (link)
Well, I'm not one for thinking we should be gentle with a corpse...human or animal. Elvis has left the building...it's just a shell.

But, I can see where you're coming from

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[info]ubersilver
2006-12-28 06:11 am UTC (link)
It was just odd to me to see flying and exploding turkey carcasses. Just, odd.

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[info]diabola
2006-12-29 05:27 am UTC (link)
I think that's disgusting and promotes lack of empathy towards animals, but am no longer surprised at what some people value as entertainment.

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[info]stone_in_focus
2006-12-27 07:12 am UTC (link)
I don't know what you are trying to accomplish with this logic rant but I don't think anyone is impressed. You know what the phrase 'meat is murder' means. I don't see what you have to gain by trying to pick it apart, except for some self satisfaction. Think you are smarter than everyone else? Get off your high horse. That isn't compassion.

Anyway a discussion of compassion could actually be interesting.

I think a lot of animal rights people have compassion for animals but lack compassion for humans. They see the injustices that humans have committed against animals (and probably themselves) and become misanthropes. A lot of veg*ns seem to be like this. It isn't very productive.

But is it wrong to attack meat eaters? Is this against compassion? Not necessarily. Meat eaters are doing wrong. Where the lack of compassion comes in is by not recognizing WHY people think it is ok to eat meat. These people have been conditioned to think that eating meat is OK. It's not that they realize eating meat is wrong and continue doing it, they truly do not know. Some would rather simply attack these people, which causes a defensive response, and no learning occurs. The best method is to try to instill some compassion in meat eaters and show them the suffering they are contributing to. Simple attacks will only make them think poorly of veg*ns and of the animal rights cause.

Anyway I'm not sure you really wanted to discuss compassion, you just seemed to want to toot your own self righteous horn. Your unproductive attacks on your community members has simply raised the kind of response that an unproductive, malicious attack on a meat eater provokes. I guess your post has really proved its point, although I doubt you intended it to work that way. :) Have a good day.

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[info]knight_of_pan
2006-12-27 08:08 am UTC (link)
I don't know what you are trying to accomplish with this logic rant but I don't think anyone is impressed. You know what the phrase 'meat is murder' means. I don't see what you have to gain by trying to pick it apart, except for some self satisfaction. Think you are smarter than everyone else? Get off your high horse. That isn't compassion.

And thank YOU for those totally compassionate and humble words. Heh....next!

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[info]vagueness_game
2006-12-27 05:05 pm UTC (link)
I think that this post most definitely has made people think about their own definition and practice in compassion. If you're getting hung up the grammar in the post, don't. While it may or may not be true (as pointed out by many commenters) I think it's mostly just there for comedic value.
But in making the assumption that he has sparked nothing but anger here in our nice little vegetarian community where no one disagrees with anyone else, apparently, would be a mistake. You have clearly not read the 30-some comments on the entry--some agreeing, and some disagreeing.
He clearly states in his post that the two of you disagree on the fact that meat eaters are doing wrong. YOU think that meat eaters are doing wrong--ergo, he must be wrong for thinking that they aren't?
I'm sorry, but I think this community could use a little more healthy discussion.

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[info]secret_fly
2006-12-27 07:50 am UTC (link)
All I am going to say about this is.....

I hate the phrase "Meat is Murder", too.

That is all.

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[info]vagueness_game
2006-12-27 05:37 pm UTC (link)
"tree is truck." I don't know what it is about that phrase, but I just lost it. I think it reminds me of something my Russian teacher would say.
Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but the discussion on the grammar of "meat is murder"...that was mostly for comedic value, right? If not, then I'm interpreting the post wrong and need to rethink my comments. But people seem to be paying more attention to what I thought was just supposed to be...funny.
As for those here who disagree with you and made that known in a calm, collected manner--free of accusations and harsh words, I applaud them. This community could use a little more healthy discussion.
As for those who have made their opinions known a little less civilly--pardon me. I forgot we all had the same opinions here.
As for my own opinion on the issue at hand:
I do not think that it is necessarily "right" to eat meat, but just that comment alone presents another socratic argument (what is justice, what is good, what is love, what is right, etc.) that I don't think we need to go into here. But I certainly am not going to attack those who are perfectly content in letting me live my lifestyle they way I wish. People HAVE been eating meat since the beginning of human life. I think that in our day and age, to not even consider the fact that we could put our diets together in such a way that we do not have to cause undue suffering is an act of ignorance. But then notice that I said that it only has to be considered. We have so much technology that allows us to stay healthy while not eating meat. Why would anyone not want to utilize that technology? But it is the choice of the person. Not my choice, or the choice of the person's peers.
The bigger crime is to simply agree with a group because they STAND FOR what you consider yourself to believe and doing no research to back your own beliefs up. Also to never pause and consider the opinion of others in order to be able to stand more steadfastly in your own beliefs.
THAT, children, IS deplorable.

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[info]knight_of_pan
2006-12-27 06:27 pm UTC (link)
Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but the discussion on the grammar of "meat is murder"...that was mostly for comedic value, right? If not, then I'm interpreting the post wrong and need to rethink my comments. But people seem to be paying more attention to what I thought was just supposed to be...funny.

Well, it was sorta tongue in cheek...as you can see by the "All your base are belong to us" injected right in the middle there... I did think it was poor grammar and still am not convinced it's not...but it'd be pretty stupid to make a post about how it shouldn't be used because of the grammar.... Also, glad you liked the "Tree is truck thing. I had to think that one out. Being a male, I kept starting off the phrase "Sex is..." or ending it "...is sex" and that's a way they use "sex". So, I hit on the "tree is truck" and was happy :-P

This post was entitled "compassion in vegetarianism" for a reason. What are you accusing them of? Murder. What happens to a murderer? How do people feel about murderers? Don't you think that by calling them a murderer that you're stating that you think they deserve that fate..and that are worth no more than a murderer?

As you've probably noticed in my earlier posts...hypocrisy eats me up. I think that if we're going to say vegetarianism is a choice that people make because they're compassionate, then we really need to be compassionate...not somehow make up for the compassion we showed to animals by being horrible to humans.

Also, I find it weird that one of the charges usually levelled against me when I speak my mind is that somehow I hate vegetarians, I hate vegans, or just genuine puzzlement that I'm a vegetarian that doesn't agree with all the rhetoric. I think that's really sad. As far as the hating vegetarians....how is that even remotely possible when I

A. am one
B. started this community FOR vegetarians
C. have been running it for years.

As far as hating vegans...I suppose that's why I fell in love with one and got her to move in with me? But, the third one is the one that really gets me....puzzlement as to why I'm a vegetarian if I don't automatically believe everything some supposed vegetarian group spouts out as truth. That's a real problem. How are we going to appeal to thinking and reasoning people if we don't do so ourselves? If vegetarianism is so great, why do we feel the need to shut our brains down and lie about things?

Occasionally I'm guilty of solely throwing something on here to promote discussion and debate. I think it's healthy. I think it's a good thing to remind people that everything is not so set in stone. I also think it's healthy to examine our own feelings on virtually everything. We owe it to ourselves.

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[info]knight_of_pan
2006-12-27 07:04 pm UTC (link)
I think that in our day and age, to not even consider the fact that we could put our diets together in such a way that we do not have to cause undue suffering is an act of ignorance. But then notice that I said that it only has to be considered. We have so much technology that allows us to stay healthy while not eating meat. Why would anyone not want to utilize that technology? But it is the choice of the person. Not my choice, or the choice of the person's peers.

I agree on part of this and want to discuss another part of it...first, I wholeheartedly agree that it is solely the person's choice. We're the first to jump up and scream if a meat-eater doesn't respect our choices, but yet show no respect for THEIR choices. Why should they respect us when we're different if we don't show any respect for them when they're the norm?

Second, why would people not want to utilize that technology? I can think of some very good reasons:

1. They don't think it's an actual choice.

I think this is a big one. If people don't consider vegetarianism a viable choice, they won't consider it. It's plain and simple. For many years they were taught that meat was healthy. They were taught that humans need meat to survive. The vegetarian movement is telling them that they don't. BUT, instead of devoting the majority of our resources towards presenting vegetarianism as a viable choice, we're devoting the majority into telling them that they're wrong for NOT choosing it. Give them a choice and then they might make the choice. But, if you don't first convince them that there is a choice to be made, they won't make it.

As a movement, we need to stop condemning people. That's a big one. Stop condemning people. Stop polarizing the issue. Stop making vegetarianism look like it's only a choice for unreasonable militants. You're actually hurting the movement by doing these things. Instead, make it appear to be what it is..a reasonable choice for the average person.

2. Time, simplicity, and knowledge.

Even if you do think it is a viable choice, then you run into the fact that it's harder to become a vegetarian than it is to stay a meat-eater. Many people don't even THINK about what they eat. They don't try to eat a balanced diet. As a vegetarian, they'll have to. That's very intimidating.

Then you run into the fact that, in most parts of the country, getting a vegetarian meal isn't as simple as getting meat. You can't just run through a fastfood drivethru. Your choices are limited. You may have to cook most of your meals. Everyone doesn't have time for that.

Then there is the fact that you have a lot of vegetarians promoting an agenda instead of the truth. So, who do you listen to? Who do you trust? Peta is out there in the open, but they constantly prove they're not trustworthy. So, who do you listen to about your body and nutrition? You're going to end up picking up a book by someone you've never heard of.

3. Money

Ok...even if you do cook your own meals as a meat-eater, you now have to change what you cook. You either need to search the web a lot, or buy cookbooks to find out about nutrition and get meal ideas. Buying books takes money. Cooking takes time...and if you don't have much money, most of your time is spent making money.

Now you have to eat a balanced diet. You have to buy fresh fruits and vegetables. If you're living on $5 a meal (and I've met a lot of people that do) then you're stuck with meat...or at the very least it's going to be extra difficult to be a vegetarian.

4. Choice

As a vegetarian, you become limited in what you can/can't eat. You have to learn to provide variety for yourself. You can't go into a restaurant and order anything off the menu. You can't hit a drive thru and be assaulted with 20 different choices. You are limited.

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[info]vagueness_game
2006-12-29 07:20 am UTC (link)
It's funny that you should mention those reasons specifically as to why a person would be reluctant to try vegetarianism. They're mostly my favorite parts. Which I suppose is why I would jump into a statement like "why would anyone not [...]"
I certainly am not naive enough to believe that everyone and their mother would be in a hurry to jump aboard the good ship vegetarianism upon discovering the all powerful veggie-burger.
As for choice: I became a vegetarian because of my own conscience. Not because someone told me that eating meat is wrong. And certainly not because anyone called me a murderer. I became a vegetarian when I realized that eating meat was:
1. Not necessary for my survival.
and
2. Much more friendly to the other beings on my planet.
I would never try and pressure someone into making that choice. If they do, I congratulate them. When they don't, I do nothing. You're absolutely right, if we pressure them into thinking that they are awful people for eating meat, they will be more resistant and more apt to push the lifestyle away rather than embrace it. It makes no sense for us to make enemies out of ordinary folk.

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[info]knight_of_pan
2006-12-27 07:04 pm UTC (link)
So, why are they told to choose vegetarianism? Because they're horrible people if they don't? Because they've been told meat is healthy for their whole life and now they're being told it isn't? Aren't they being told that everything else about their life is unhealthy too? So why should they go through all the trouble to clean up this one area?

For the animals? Many people don't care enough about animals to change their diets. It doesn't directly affect them. Plus, they've been raised that this is what animals are for.

So, we're condemning people for not choosing vegetarianism but haven't changed these things. We haven't presented the majority of them with compelling reasons to make the changes and go through all of this. It's like we're saying "Ok...i know you don't have much money or time...and this is going to consume a chunk of what you've got left...but you should make this choice because we say it'll make you a better person" and then get mad if they don't.

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[info]diabola
2006-12-29 05:32 am UTC (link)
Does anyone know the person who coined the phrase "meat is murder"?

It seems like something a veggie-phobe would say to make fun of vegetarians.

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[info]runningfutility
2007-01-01 02:53 am UTC (link)
oh man! i thought this was going to be a discussion about The Smiths' album Meat is Murder..... heh....

;-)

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