veganism: Undereye circles and Bruising..??

stoikangel (

stoikangel) wrote in

veganism,
@ 2008-11-11 19:52:00

Current mood:

confused

Undereye circles and Bruising..??
I've been vegan for only a month. I came to this page because I was researching B12. For the past two weeks, I've been getting small bruises.. and have horrific circles under my eyes. I feel anemic.. and a b12 deficancy may cause this..

I take a multitude of vitamins daily(about 10 plus a protein shakes), including zinc, magnesium and iron. Supposedly, I get more than enough of all in comparison to %RDA/%DV.

What am I missing..? I eat 3 meals and 3 snacks a day.. although I may not be getting enough grains- could that be the problem?

I know a pill is no substitute but shouldn't getting over 100%DV of something, counteract any lack of the vitamin/mineral from not eating enough of it?

Also, if anyone knows, could Vitamin E cause bruising...??

ooh and I asked my local holistic pharmacist about the undereye circles, she said to go get my thyroid checked..

(Post a new comment)

mari_mac1109
2008-11-12 08:18 am UTC (link)

Getting some blood work done might not be a bad idea. A simple blood test can test for thyroid issues, iron and B12 deficiencies.

It's possible that your body can't absorb B12 as it occurs in food products and supplements. I know I can't. I was taking 1000mg of B12 daily and my blood work came back with scary scary low levels because I just can't absorb it digestively. Thankfully, if you can't get B12 from food, you can get injections.

You might want to track your daily food on a site like fitday.com or sparkpeople.com and see what nutrients you might be lacking. It was really eye opening for me to do so and it can help you figure out what changes you might need to make in your diet.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	stoikangel 2008-11-12 08:32 pm UTC (link)
	I've been using the downloaded version (yes I paid lol) on and off for about 6 years.. I've been consistent with it for a month straight.. I wish it had the share with the public feature that the online version has... I can't see anything besides cholesterol that I am sorely lacking in.. I'll get some bloodwork done. Perhaps I have the same absorption issues as you. (Reply to this) (Parent)

ticklemecheeky
2008-11-12 08:22 am UTC (link)

Hmmm. I'm sorry I'm not going to be very helpful here: the only thing I can really say is that I'm pretty sure you can't become B-12 deficient after a month; you would've had to have been vegan/vegetarian for a few years and chances are that if you're taking a veg multi-vitamin B-12 is probably included in there. I hope someone else can answer your other questions! I've never had troubles with bruising before, but it doesn't sound like fun.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	socraticomatic 2008-11-12 11:51 am UTC (link)
	This is what I was going to say. B12 is stored in the body and is used at a verrrrry slow rate, so someone can be vegan a decade, taking no supplements, and still not be deficient. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	stoikangel 2008-11-12 08:28 pm UTC (link)
	That puts my mind at ease, thanks :) The articles I was reading were a tad scary LOL. Plus the B12 deficiency symptoms seemed to fit me... (Reply to this) (Parent)

cat_lover
2008-11-12 09:08 am UTC (link)

I am thinking maybe a Vitamin K deficiency is what is causing your bruising and dark under eye circles. Not enough of this vitamin can cause this problem.

Also taking too many vitamins can have the opposite effect of what you are trying to do, so only take what is is the recommended dosage. Certain supplements can interact with each other, therefore cancelling the effect of the vitamin.

Having 10 protein shakes a day is also excessive, and having too much protein (either from a plant or animal source) can put excessive pressure on your liver and kidneys. Also too much protein can also affect the absorption of vitamins and minerals in the diet.

Because you were a meat eater in the past (FYI, you can't call yourself a vegetarian and still eat red meat), your body already has a good store of Vitamin B12, so I highly doubt you have a vitamin B12 deficiency.

I'm afraid your body finds it easier to absorb vitamins and minerals in their natural state (i.e. from fresh fruit and vegetables) rather than something that has been chemically made or altered quite a bit. This is because fruit and veg contain other biofactors that help in the absorption of said vitamins and minerals.

Hope this info helps, and making sure you sure you eat a well balanced diet is the best thing you can do.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

stoikangel
2008-11-12 07:49 pm UTC (link)

opps small misunderstanding.. 10 dif vitamins PLUS a protein shake :)

any good recommendations for websites that may help me know which vits to take together and which to take at different times?

I eat about 9 servings of fruit and veg a day. I have about 1 cup of leafy greens a day.. which should be enough Vk?

Not to throw a wrench in, but I also have factor v leiden syndrome, which is pretty much the opp. of a hemophiliac.. I guess I should probably consult a dr ey?

(Reply to this) (Parent)

rot_ko
2008-11-12 10:45 am UTC (link)

I've always had dark circles/ bruising, and it actually got better when I went vegan. I don't know the exact cause, though, but it has something to do with having very "thin" skin (my thyroid it's just fine).
I can't help that much, since I pay no attention to nutrition facts and don't take supplements, but, as others have said, you can't become B12 deficient so quickly. you probably can't become anemic that quickly either, but getting some blood work done might answer your questions.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	stoikangel 2008-11-12 07:50 pm UTC (link)
	I have thin skin as well. I also have avoided sunburns for my entire life. Maybe I have a sunscreen overdose LOL. Perhaps a little direct sunlight? (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	rot_ko 2008-11-12 09:02 pm UTC (link)
	direct sunlight is good for you (not for the dark circles, I'm afraid, at least not for me), but yeah, too much sunscreen is not a good idea. it's usually packed with chemicals, and if you use the strong ones all the time your skin doesn't breath properly. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	bamboo_gnome 2008-11-12 10:49 am UTC (link)
	Your body stores B12 for 7 years so I also doubt this is what you have, unless your body is unable to absorb and store B12. More importantly... Stop taking so many pills and start eating some fresh food! 10 a day?? Yikes! You know it's also possible to overdose on vitamins so be careful with that stuff. Nothing beats just eating properly. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	Aren't these important...? stoikangel 2008-11-12 08:25 pm UTC (link)
	That makes me feel better, thank you :) Vit E, Omega-3 Omega-6 Magnesium Calcium 2x daily Zinc Iron Aloe Multi Suprema Dophilus- helps keep digestive bacteria healthy Vitamineral Green- lots of green algea and leafy things =) (Reply to this) (Parent)

hidden_tears
2008-11-12 11:17 am UTC (link)

Just want to add that allergies can also cause dark under eye circles & bruising but vitamin C, K, B12 & folic acid deficiencies can too (for C - eat more fruit & broccoli! K - eat more green leafy veggies & cauliflower! soy? B12 - drink fortified non-dairy milk, eat nutritional yeast or take a supplement & folic acid - eat green leafy veggies, legumes, sunflower seeds, etc). If you're worried about possibly being deficient in something then definitely go for a blood test! Also should mention the importance of vitamin D because most of us don't get enough sunlight and are to some extent deficient if even just a little. To answer your question, no, vitamin E actually aids in the healing of bruises! And yeah, be careful not to overdo it on the protein. =)

(Reply to this) (Thread)

stoikangel
2008-11-12 08:19 pm UTC (link)

I know I'm getting at least 100%DV of C, K and about 90%DV folic acid and B12....

its like "summer" in cali now with all the grass blooming.

I had allergies as a child.. and since I moved here I've been slightly stuffed up. Maybe that's it?

I think I should eat more seeds though.. I usually only eat them in my salad (flax)

I take daily walks for about 40 minutes so I'm pretty sure Vd isn't the prob. Although I've just recently stopped wearing sunscreen since it's getting dark so early now.. does sunscreen inhibit the absorption of D?

(Reply to this) (Parent)

sontres
2008-11-12 11:40 am UTC (link)

Honestly if you're taking 10 vitamins daily, I would be more worried about getting too much of a vitamin rather than not enough. Iron is especially dangerous if you get too much of it. I don't think that causes symptoms for a long time, but it will silently damage your liver.

Vitamin A also can cause problems, but only if you're taking retinol (actual vitamin A) rather than the precursor beta-carotene:
"Vitamin A toxicity can occur with long-term consumption of 20 mg of retinol or more per day. The symptoms of vitamin A overdosing include accumulation of water in the brain (hydrocephalus), vomiting, tiredness, constipation, bone pain, and severe headaches. The skin may acquire a rough and dry appearance, with hair loss and brittle nails."

Other examples:
"Megadoses of vitamin E may produce headaches, tiredness, double vision, and diarrhea in humans."
Vitamin E supplementation in general (as opposed to getting it from food) may increase mortality:
http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/full/0000605-200501040-00110v1

"Prolonged consumption of megadoses of vitamin K (menadione) results in anemia, which is a reduced level of red blood cells in the bloodstream."

And there's more:
http://www.healthatoz.com/healthatoz/Atoz/common/standard/transform.jsp?requestURI=/healthatoz/Atoz/ency/vitamin_toxicity.jsp

The point is, make sure you're not getting too much of any vitamin. It can be just as bad as a deficiency, and sometimes worse.

What do you eat in a typical day?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	stoikangel 2008-11-12 07:56 pm UTC (link)
	Thank you for the websites. I WAS wondering if I was getting too much of something. Fitday's reports say I'm getting over 300% of iron, D, E, Copper, Iron, Manga., Zinc, Thiamine. Perhaps too much of them is the answer to my question. Although I will still get blood work done :) (Reply to this) (Parent)

stoikangel
2008-11-12 08:14 pm UTC (link)

I don't take Va sups now.. but I used to. I was also on acutane, and had to get reg liver function tests, but that was almost 8 years ago....

Fitday says I'm getting 287 DV% of Va- too much?

Let's see..

Not always the same but a sample of my days eating:

Breakfast:
Protein shake with rice milk and 10 cherries and stevia.
cream of wheat with three strawberries

Snack: apple with stevia sweetened iced tea with lemon.

Lunch: salad with looseleaf, onion, artichoke hearts, mushrooms, yellow and red peppers, carrots and cucumber, kidney beans and garbonzo beans. Vinegar dressing.

snack: vegan chicken nuggets with mustard

Dinner: navy bean, spinach, carrot mix(or some veg mix) over a veg burger or sometimes a mushroom facon veg burger sandwhich with lettuce.

for a snack, usually cereal with soymilk or if I'm feeling motivated, roasted red and yellow peppers with zucchini and mushrooms. If I'm feeling lazy a non protein shake with soymilk and fruit.

Tonight I'm making veg chili for dinner.. mmmmm....!

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	hailseizures 2008-11-12 01:56 pm UTC (link)
	the liver holds b12 stores for a long time if you have just recently become vegan your chances of a b12 def. are very low. stop being reactionary and get some sleep. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	stoikangel 2008-11-12 08:03 pm UTC (link)
	Hrmmm I sleep 7-9 hours a night.. usually I wake up after a good 8. The articles I was reading about b12 scared me, that's why I was asking :) apparently vegans are at risk of not getting enough which can cause anemia and nervous system damage. I didn't like the sound of that :) I guess I'll just need to get some bloodwork. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	orphe_ 2008-11-12 02:42 pm UTC (link)
	just a guess here, but i'd say you're killing yourself with protein shakes and pills, and your body is begging you for some actual food. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	stoikangel 2008-11-12 07:58 pm UTC (link)
	I only have about 50g of protein a day. Thats about right I think? I only use the supplements in addition to what I eat, not instead of. I think I may be getting an overkill of some vitamins :) (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

orphe_
2008-11-12 08:35 pm UTC (link)

i have no idea how much protein you need, but i do know that if you're eating sufficient calories you don't need additional protein, unless you have some sort of condition. and you also don't need all those vitamins if you're eating a reasonably varied diet. all a vegan needs to take, assuming s/he is normal and healthy, is vitamin b12 and maybe an omega 3 supplement.

have a doctor run a blood panel and tell you where you stand with all your vitamins, which to take and which to skip. s/he can tell you more about your bruising issues too. good luck!

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	mugimama 2008-11-12 04:09 pm UTC (link)
	yes don't try to overdo it with the protein! that's how a lot of americans get osteoporosis, because it makes the body leach calcium... (Reply to this) (Thread)

	stoikangel 2008-11-12 07:59 pm UTC (link)
	I was reading something about that in "Skinny Bitch" I get about 45-50g of protein a day. The book says to get from 16-80 depending on who you ask. What do you think? (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

mardouville
2008-11-12 11:10 pm UTC (link)

I'm reading up on vegan pregnancy and my book (Dr Holly Roberts, Your Vegetarian Pregancy) recommends 60g a day for pregnant women. I would think somewhat less then for a non-pregnant woman would be fine.

As a long term vegan I got bloodwork recently to check for deficiencies and everything was fine except for Vitamin D. And I thought I got enough sunshine! Evidently not.

Bear in mind also that your body makes all the cholesterol you need, you don't need to eat animal food to get it.
Good luck and feel well soon!

(Reply to this) (Parent)

mugimama
2008-11-13 04:13 pm UTC (link)

personally, i try to do what john robbins wrote and not worry about protein, because it's very easy to get protein in your diet! or, it's helpful to experiment with your body and see how good you feel when consuming more/less protein, because all of our bodies are different. i don't think your protein levels are crazy, though! They seem alright... i guess it all matters in how you feel physically, because it depends on your own tolerance.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

desolation_no
2008-11-12 11:32 pm UTC (link)

According to my nutrition professor (who is very pro-veg diets, btw) it's good for vegetarians to get slightly above the RDA of protein for their body type/activity level, since vegan sources of protein are plant based and thus have fiber which the body doesn't digest - so basically you are not digesting all the protein in the food and it's okay to get more than you need. If you're consistently getting 50g then you're probably fine, upping it to 60 might be a little safer. You have to remember with all of this stuff, that to an extent the body is really resilient. Yes, vegetarians have to watch iron and B12, and women need to watch calcium, but about those things, eating a proper balanced diet should give you what you need. Also, if you are sick, go to a doctor rather than a holistic pharmacist or asking around in communities.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	desolation_no 2008-11-12 11:33 pm UTC (link)
	Person above's comment reminded me of D too, which is very important for calcium absorption. Fortified soy products usually have D in them, so check how much you're getting. (Reply to this) (Parent)

stevewood
2008-11-13 04:35 am UTC (link)

Hello!

It doesn't look like your factor v leiden syndrome will be effected by being vegan except to help reduce your risk for embalisms. It's odd, but bruising is normal for hemopheliacs.

The Omega-3 and Vitamin E should help your skin. I know that the Iron suppliment will help your red blood cells to be more productive. But, I don't think there's that much of a benefit from the other stuff. And you should be cautious about suppliments...food has everything you need, suppliments are for people that don't eat right.

You seem to be eating a wide variety of foods, and you already seem to know about the Recommended Daily Allowances (RDAs); though, to be honest I'm not sure that vegans need as many vitamins as meat eaters or the RDAs are over exagerated. If you want to know the nutritional value of what you are eating then visit http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/. You can learn to do without pills, for example eating 1/3 of a medium sized sweet potato seems to be all I need, but the nutritional value is only 1/3 of the RDA for Vitamin A. After 18 years of being a vegan and only in the last 6 eating right (and never taking vitamins except for B12 (which was useless) and vitamin C for about 3 months when I was roughing it) I can say that I'm very healthy for a person that the RDA is saying is severely lacking in Vitamin A. But, at least with the web site I mentioned you can see that eating 1/2 medium sized carrots will meet the RDA if that's what you want.

As far as protein is concerned 50g is plenty... in fact a fairly large amount...again I've found while eating right that the RDA seems exagerated.

You should only need to be concerned about B12 when you are 40ish...if you never eat meat and never spend time gardening then you may run out in 40 years. Animals, fish, birds, etc. do not produce B12...they all get it from where we can get it...soil bacteria. According to government research bacteria living in the soil produce the most B12...it's the most abundant source. And, the most efficient means of ingesting B12 is by inhalation. Check out http://www.Nascobal.com and look at their test results...swallowing B12 or even placing sublingual pills under the tongue will only result in less than 1% absorption of the B12, but inhaling it is over 50% as effecient as injecting it. And, B12 is stored for use, so it just requires gardening each year...get outside and grow your own food and you won't need any pills at all...neither will you need sprays like Nascobal sells. I haven't been able to spend much time in the garden so I'm crushing the sublingual B12 pills and snorting them into my nose through a straw.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

thank you

stoikangel
2008-11-13 08:51 am UTC (link)

Wow, excellent info!! I book marked the first website, thanks.

I think everyone here has pretty much convinced me that I don't need the supplements- but I'm still worried about the dark circles under my eyes. I get enough sleep... I've got some anxiety issues but they've never caused the circles before... iron, zinc, and magnesium seem to have no effect.. I guess they are pretty much needless if I eat healthy.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

tino_bambino
2008-11-13 05:10 am UTC (link)

Hi, just wanted to point out that certain vitamins & minerals inhibit each others absorption, which is why multivitamins are not really that great for some nutrients. (ie Calcium and Iron inhibit each others absorption, so you should take them separately, not eat them in large amounts in the same meal etc) The same thing goes for Copper and Zinc I believe, and a bunch of others but I can't remember them all.

If you're concerned, my advice would be to see a dietitian; they know MUCH more about nutrition and 'alternative' diets like (vegan ones!) than general physicians do. I've been to one as well as having regular bloodwork done and found the dietitian to be very helpful (just make sure you find a veg-positive one who knows their stuff). Mine even gave me a personalized food pyramid and some suggested things to eat to match my activity level etc. And some resources. Otherwise, I'd just make sure you're getting enough sleep :)

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	stoikangel 2008-11-13 08:54 am UTC (link)
	I've been wondering about the taking of vitamins together thing... I take some in the morning, noon and evening.. but I really am ignorant about which to take together. ie: I've been taking my calcium with my iron :) I should search around and see if I can find a website that explains the interactions of supplements. thanks =) also your icon is hella cute (Reply to this) (Parent)

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