unplottables: Ron is Dumbledore Part 1.2

Under the Gun (

lizardlaugh) wrote in

unplottables,
@ 2003-11-24 22:42:00

Current mood:

devious

Ron is Dumbledore Part 1.2
Because there seems to be some confusion...

Ok, this is quick and dirty, but I think it illustrates how this works:

At some point in Ron's sixth or seventh (probably seventh) year, Ron goes back in time to circa 1858 or so. Around the time Dumbledore, were he not Ron, would have been at Hogwarts. Ron then lives out the rest of his life as Dumbledore. He is a young man when he arrives in the past. Somewhere along the way, he realizes what he is to become. Maybe he figures it out before he leaves. Maybe going back is an accident. At any rate, he's a young man in the past and must live out his days as Dumbledore.

Now... as for him changing time. He can't just go into hiding. He knows Dumbledore does certain things becase he did them. He has to do them. He has to defeat Grindewald. He has to come up with the uses for dragon's blood, etc. He also has to do some things he doesn't want to do, because if he changes anything (and by not actually becoming Dumbledore, he would in fact change EVERYTHING) he has to do all of the chess playing, beghind the scenes, manipulative things DD does. Now, he doesn't do these things (letting Cedric, Sirius, the Potters, etc. die) because he wants to, but because he has to. He has imperfect knowledge of what *really* happened, but he has to do his best to do things the same so that Harry can defeat Voldie. The question is... does he have any choice? That really has to do with the nature of time travel. In PoA, Harry and Hermione change everything yet change nothing. Everything happens the exact same way both times. There is a paradox. There is no first time where Harry wasn't on the other side of the lake to save himself. If he was, he couldn't through the second time. So... it is unclear if DD/Ron could change anything even if he wanted to. In other words, when you travel backwards, you have set the past. Yes, it is confusing. That is the nature of time travel, and there are many, many ways to think about it and I am not completely sure how JKR sees time (immutable, changable, etc.). What is pretty simple to understand, however, is the order of events. The nature of space/time is a separate thing, and I will be the first to admit it is messy.

Very soon, ixchelmala and I will be posting something akin to the Great Unified Theory in physics. It is something JKR sets up at the end of PS/SS -- the chess game. It involves Ron=DD, and I think may shed some light on this particular theory. Still working out the bugs. For now, there is the timeline :D

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	zorb 2003-11-24 10:53 pm UTC (link)
	To quote O'Brien: "I hate temporal mechanics." ;-) And I didn't fully read the first post about it, so you can direct me there if it has the answer, but how does Aberforth Dumbledore figure into this? (Reply to this) (Thread)

	hermione_like 2003-11-24 10:54 pm UTC (link)
	but how does Aberforth Dumbledore figure into this? Forgot to ask about that when I commented lol. But yeah, I was wondering the same. (Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) -

lizardlaugh, 2003-11-24 11:18 pm UTC

(no subject) -

sebastienne, 2004-05-03 01:17 am UTC

(no subject) -

no_remorse, 2003-11-27 06:11 am UTC

(no subject) -

mcity, 2005-10-10 09:36 am UTC

(no subject) -

clauclauclaudia, 2005-12-07 02:14 pm UTC

	hermione_like 2003-11-24 10:53 pm UTC (link)
	I don't think I'm quite sold on this theory yet--at about 70-75%? LoL Anyways, I do think it's really interesting and I've heard about it before. I've always kind of wanted to tackle this theory but I'm glad you did hehe. :) (Reply to this) (Thread)

	lizardlaugh 2003-11-25 12:02 am UTC (link)
	hehe! This is a fun theory. ixchelmala and I are putting together some stuff re: the chess game, and it supports this as well. I've got more stuff... it's just getting it all written up. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) -

lycoris, 2003-12-15 12:40 pm UTC

(no subject) -

lizardlaugh, 2004-01-06 08:05 pm UTC

xanderave
2003-11-25 06:49 am UTC (link)

I was just wondering: It is said somewhere that the same two person that co-exist at the same time cannot in any form touch each other for it breaks down the physical being of each other, sort of how the same sound wavelength from the opposite direction can cancel out each other and how the identical form of atoms cannot exist together in one place of one dimension... so how is it possible that DD and Ron can touch?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

lizardlaugh
2003-11-25 10:43 am UTC (link)

It never says that in the books at all. I've heard something similar to that in other stories involving time travel (you can't meet yourself, etc.). I wouldn't say that it is a law of time travel -- for that matter, time travel isn't possible anyway except in one direction, forward. So, I guess if you write about time travel, you can make it all up so long as you are logically consistent.

I know about the same sound travelling in the opposite direction cancelling out the sound. However, sound is a wave travelling through a medium (air). It's not matter itself like a person. And anyway, the part that would touch would be the skin which is always dying and regrowing and would be the same atoms anyway.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) -

loonyemi, 2004-06-07 12:20 pm UTC

(no subject) -

mincsu, 2006-04-13 07:15 pm UTC

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-04-10 04:27 am UTC

	ladyguenivere 2003-11-25 02:44 pm UTC (link)
	ok., this helps, but i'm waiting for the rest of the theory before i give a solid YAY or NAY on the matter. ;) i look forward to the rest! :D (Reply to this)

flying_piggie
2003-11-25 07:46 pm UTC (link)

It's an interesting theory and it can make sense. I guess what bugs me the most is the fact that he becomes the greatest wizard, even above Harry (so far at least). Maybe Ron's capable of it, but if so, it sounds like the book would need to start revolving around Ron to answer all the questions that could arise... or maybe a new book about how Dumbledore came into existance. :D

(Reply to this) (Thread)

lizardlaugh
2003-11-25 11:05 pm UTC (link)

I don't think it would make the books revolve around Ron any more than they already revolve around Dumbledore. Even without being Ron, Dumbledore pulls a lot of strings and makes a lot of things happen. I think the explanation would be quite simple -- a long chapter just basically saying how it happened. I imagine that Ron would go back before DD dies so that DD is still around to explain the whole thing to Harry.

As for another book if this theory is correct.... oh boy, would I love to see that!!!

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Adding to the theory?

kerrbearsmile
2003-11-25 07:59 pm UTC (link)

Wouldn't it be more useful if Ron went back in time later in life. After he had developed some of his magical skills. But not too late as he would need to build a reputation as a good, powerful and trustworthy wizard.

The issue of the things that Dumbledore must do, Ron already knows because of his studies at Hogwarts (especially those studies not required by the school). Perhaps he (Ron) would study with Dumbledore (himself) after completing his NEWTS. The reason why would, perhaps, be because Dumbledore tells Ron and Harry that he is, indeed, Ron (only older) AFTER Harry defeats Voldermort.

Just a few thoughts.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Adding to the theory?

lizardlaugh
2003-11-25 11:12 pm UTC (link)

Well, that would be nice, wouldn't it? Dumbledore might even have a chance to train Ron, prepare him.

What makes me doubt this as the leading possibility is that the defeat of Voldemort will be the climax of the series. If the seventh books follows the same pattern, it will only cover one year and end in June of 1998. Not enough time to show this, and to have it in the epilogue would be anti-climatic. One other thing is that we know that Dumbledore took his NEWTs with Professor Marchbanks. Ron has to go back in time to at least pass as a Hogwarts student. Also... and will go into this in more detail in another post shortly... there is an event in PS/SS that indicates that Ron goes back before Harry defeats Voldie. That, in fact, his leaving is what allows Harry to defeat Voldie.

I think Ron will need some prep. He's got to become the greatest wizard pretty much ever. He's already heading in a direction of more responisbility -- Prefect, Quidditch Keeper, possibly eventually Head Boy if the Mirror of Erised is to be believed. So, I could totally see Dumbledore (his older self) taking him aside and preparing him in some way.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

syndarys
2003-11-25 09:18 pm UTC (link)

*grins brightly* that is BLOODY BRILLIANT!! I love it :D

xanderave mentioned something about it being impossible for Ron and Dumbledore to touch one another due to the whole "the same person cannot exist twice in the same space time" thing... but... after thinking about that... have they ever touched? I cant think of one instance of Dumbledore touching Ron... someone feel free to correct me, and point out an instance where he does, but thinking about it now without any reference, I cant remember it happening once...

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	blit_z 2003-11-27 05:30 am UTC (link)
	but even so, we still have to take into account that even if it isn't explicitly mentioned in the book, it doesn't mean that dumbledore and ron have never made any physical contact in the past FIVE years. that would just be a silly thing to think (pardon me ;D). this part of the theory is what bugs me the most. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) -

kurobahikaru, 2004-08-27 07:42 pm UTC

(no subject) -

shag_me_draco, 2005-01-12 12:18 pm UTC

	kanimaki 2003-11-25 10:44 pm UTC (link)
	This theory may be a good one but I'm not sure J.K. Rowling would put it this way.. (Reply to this)

	missfahrenheit 2003-11-26 11:13 am UTC (link)
	You are my hero! (Reply to this)

chickadilly
2003-11-27 12:07 am UTC (link)

I have mixed feelings about this theory, partially because of my own emotional feelings about Ron. Having said that, I just want you guys to know that I think what you're putting together is fascinating.

Even though I'm not sure what to make of it in regard to canon, I think if you put all this together you should really put this into a fanfic ... it would kick ass. (I read that one you referenced on FA ... it's only two chapters! wah! More needs to be written.)

(Reply to this)

no_remorse
2003-11-27 06:44 am UTC (link)

I love this theory, but I think I found a flaw.

I am not really all that crazy about Rowling interviews, but in this case...

Rowling in 1999

Well, because all your kids said ‘hello’ so nicely in the background there, I am going to give you information I haven’t given anyone else and I will tell you that one of the characters, one of Harry’s classmates, though it’s not Harry himself, does end up a teacher at Hogwarts. But, it is not, maybe the one you think, hint, hint, hint. Yeah, one of them does end up staying at Hogwarts, but ----
Do you guys have a guess as to who it is?
(Kids shouting in background) Ron
They say Ron.
No, it’s not Ron. I can’t see Ron as a teacher. No way.

Dumbledore was a teacher. And for some reason, I might believe that Rowling would have said no, Ron does not end up becoming a teacher, while whistling about Dumbledore, but saying that she "can't see Ron as a teacher - no way"?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

lizardlaugh
2003-11-27 10:49 am UTC (link)

Oh, I've seen and heard this one.

Did you listen to the interview though? She tells them this thing, then the kids on the phone start guessing. It was totally sprung on her, as it was the teacher who invited the kids to guess before JKR was finished speaking. She's all 'noooooooooo'. You'd have to hear her voice. I think it is iffy. I don't think she would admit it, it's still not a lie, and she is very sneaky. She couldn't say yes, and... I believe that this is that 'something big, if anyone figured it out, she'd be very disapointed because it is the key to the whole series'. Paraphrasing here, I believe it was in the Paxman interview.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) -

no_remorse, 2003-11-27 04:09 pm UTC

(no subject) -

lizardlaugh, 2003-11-27 05:58 pm UTC

Ron is NOT Aberforth. -

shewhosparkles, 2004-07-13 03:43 pm UTC

Re: Ron is NOT Aberforth. -

lizardlaugh, 2004-07-13 03:55 pm UTC

Re: Ron is NOT Aberforth. -

shewhosparkles, 2004-07-13 04:22 pm UTC

water_witch
2003-11-27 01:45 pm UTC (link)

I am not sure I am entirely sold on this theory although I have come across it a few times before. That there is some significance to the red hair thing though I am quite certain. In the version of this theory I read a while ago it suggested that when Ron went back in time, he accidentally killed the REAL Albus Dumbledore and then was obliged to take his place for some reason. Unfortunately this accidental death makes it sound a little too farcical to me.

(Reply to this)

lijah_lover
2003-11-27 06:01 pm UTC (link)

[i]I was just wondering: It is said somewhere that the same two person that co-exist at the same time cannot in any form touch each other for it breaks down the physical being of each other, sort of how the same sound wavelength from the opposite direction can cancel out each other and how the identical form of atoms cannot exist together in one place of one dimension... so how is it possible that DD and Ron can touch?[/i]

well if you really read the books closely it doesn't really say Dumbledor touched Ron does it, in no way, infact I be willing to swear it, I don't think Dumbledor has ever touched Ron! wow creepy.....

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	(Anonymous) 2006-03-04 12:46 pm UTC (link)
	Fuck me (Reply to this) (Parent)

	lijah_lover 2003-11-27 06:37 pm UTC (link)
	I have another comment that has popped into my mind If Ron dispises Snape so much, why would he hire him as a teacher?.... all though I can see the tourmenting part of it.... not letting Him have the Defence against the Dark arts job, maybe as a way of pay back snort (Reply to this) (Thread)

ashenflowers
2003-11-27 08:03 pm UTC (link)

I'm sure Snape has (if not already has HAD) a big part to play in what's happening, and his position as teacher at hogwarts was probably a vital part to that, so he must have HAD to be there
if not, so many things would be thrown out of whack, it would mess everything up and change too much, unpredictably
Dumbledore most likely realizes this though Ron, in his pre-Dumbledore days, would not yet understand Snape's full role/purpose

mmm how I heart time travel... lol

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) -

ashenflowers, 2003-11-27 08:05 pm UTC

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2004-08-04 05:24 pm UTC

(Anonymous)
2003-11-28 08:23 am UTC (link)

(Reply to this) (Thread)

lizardlaugh
2003-11-28 10:49 am UTC (link)

You know, I was liking this theory for a bit, but then decided against it. Dumbledore got surprised by two things in OotP that Ron would have known about, and his surprise is mentioned explicitly.

The first is his reaction to Umbridge deciding to speak at the Welcome Dinner.

She interrupts him speaking. Would Ron have remembered everything DD ever said, correct timeing and everything? DD looks taken aback. He may have been Ron, but he's still the Headmaster of the school. Even if he knew it was coming, he should still be taken aback. What she did was out of line. Notice, afterwards, he is perfectly polite. ROn can't stand Umbridge (really, now, can anyone). I don't really see anything unusual there. Ron could not have remembered her exact timing after over a hundred years.

As for the second... oddly enough, when I first read that line, I saw it as evidence IN FAVOR of Ron=DD because Dumbledore is revisiting a childhood memory. "He gazed at the heading scribbled by Hermione months before..." If you ship R/Hr, then, well... old guy took a moment to sort of revisit the past.

Also, Ron wasn't there to witness what happened. And while Harry probably told Ron what happened, Ron doesn't have perfect knowledge of events, even as Harry saw them, nevermind how DD saw them. Dumbledore, even if he is Ron, doesn't have perfect knowledge. Ron isn't memorizing everything that happens so he can remember some day when he his Dumbledore. Harry doesn't tell him everything, and there is tons of stuff Harry doesn't know at all. DD has to wing it a great deal, using what he does know (which is a lot) as a guide)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2003-11-28 06:26 pm UTC

ummm... kinda obvious here - (Anonymous), 2005-02-12 09:40 pm UTC

lijah_lover
2003-11-28 02:21 pm UTC (link)

I just thought of this

Jk Rowling 1999~
But, it is not, maybe the one you think, hint, hint, hint. Yeah, one of them does end up staying at Hogwarts, but ----
Do you guys have a guess as to who it is?
(Kids shouting in background) Ron
They say Ron.
No, it’s not Ron. I can’t see Ron as a teacher. No way.

well that is kinda like Dobby saying it isn't Voldemort opening the Chamber of Secrets it is Tom Riddle when Really they are the same person only Tom Riddle ISN'T Voldemort YET.

(Reply to this)

lijah_lover
2003-11-28 02:27 pm UTC (link)

I have another Idea, bear with me LMAO

ok Dumbledor could also be either Neville (because Neville broke his nose in the first book and the fifth)

or Dumbledor could be Harry, since he seems to know Exactly what Harry is thinking and Exactly where Harry is like him sending the Hogwarts Letter to the Burrow even when harry had JUST arrived.

and yeah what is odd is Hermione said in the first book "I hope I'm in griffindor Because I heard Dumbledor was in that house".

two things on that Neville, Harry AND Ron are in that house, and Mcgonagall is the Head of the house so if Hermione Is Mcgonagall and SHE is the one that becomes the teacher at hogwarts, don't you think it would be right for her to be Head of Griffindor house when she is a Prefect also?

ANd don't you think that if Either Harry, Ron or Neville were Dumbledor they would choose there best friend to be Deputy Headmistress?

(Reply to this)

lijah_lover
2003-11-28 04:01 pm UTC (link)

*ahem* I have one more far-fetched Idea this one is probably completly farfetched but I thought I would write it anyways

DD is James Potter and Mcgonagall is Lilly Potter

you see, Lilly and James KNEW they were going to be killed by Voldemort so they time traveled and Ta Da became DD and McG why do you think DD is keeping a close eye on Harry? and why do you thnik McG wants Harry to Play Quddich, well other than the fact that he is good.

I just want his Parents back LMAO

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	sugarfish7 2003-12-16 12:47 pm UTC (link)
	I really really really like that plan. Really. I'm going to start detective work on this one ^^; (Reply to this) (Parent)

	bekkio 2003-12-03 04:53 pm UTC (link)
	This is a real quick refutation, using evidence from PoA: 1. If Dumbledore=Ron, wouldn't Dumbledore know that the Marauders were animagi? 2. If Dumbledore=Ron, wouldn't he know that Peter was the Secret Keeper and he betrayed the Potters <3 & :P (Reply to this) (Thread)

lizardlaugh
2003-12-03 06:18 pm UTC (link)

ah! but he did know
re-read that section... nothing there was really a surprize to him. In fact, when he says 'Prongs road again' Harry gave him a funny look. That is when DD says 'Sirius told me the whole thing'. He never says he never knew... he just said they kept it from him. I think it is more telling that he was not in the least bit surprized at the prophecy and accepted Sirius's innocence without any kind of proof at all.

If you read the time travel sequence, when Harry and Hermione go back, DD knew THE FIRST TIME through that Harry and HErmione were there to save Buckbeak -- he is the one who distracted everyone inside Hagrid's hut so that H&H could get Buckbeak.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) -

bekkio, 2003-12-05 03:58 pm UTC

(no subject) -

crazygal, 2003-12-16 06:48 pm UTC

(no subject) -

bekkio, 2003-12-16 08:30 pm UTC

(no subject) -

crazygal, 2003-12-16 08:31 pm UTC

(no subject) -

bekkio, 2003-12-16 08:36 pm UTC

(no subject) -

crazygal, 2003-12-16 08:38 pm UTC

	dreamkeeper77 2003-12-06 07:37 pm UTC (link)
	I have been thinking about this theory and have one more thing to add: In PS/SS, DD talks about the scar on his knee. In POA, Ron breaks leg around the knee area. Would that leave a scar? Is it the same leg? Also, why does DD have a Pensieve? Is it somewhere to put all the memories that he doesn't think he should remember in? (Reply to this) (Thread)

	(Anonymous) 2006-03-03 07:12 pm UTC (link)
	As to the Ron breaking his leg, he broke his left leg. Dumbledore has a scar above his left knee. Coincidence...? That's all I have to say right now! ^_^ (Reply to this) (Parent)

	bekkio 2003-12-07 09:46 am UTC (link)
	The comments are screened! lizardlaugh, I was going to reply to your last comment, but I can't :) (Reply to this)

	lijah_lover 2003-12-07 05:35 pm UTC (link)
	I was thinking about that too but ovbiously it is for when you mind is to full and you need room to think like Snape had one too but do you think that Dumbledore got Harry out of the Pensive so He wouldn't go to far back and see Dumbeldor as Ron instead of Dumbledor? (Reply to this)

yehira
2004-01-10 07:57 pm UTC (link)

I'm complaining. There's no evidence in quotation to support the statement on the Knight2King site about Arthur Weasley's eyes being blue, nor is Ron's. In the first book, it was stated that weasleys were generally known to have fiery red-orange hair and brown eyes with freckles. In the MOVIE he has blue eyes... but that's because most people generally do not have red hair and brown eyes. So saying Ron is Dumbledore would require him to have contacts or magically change his eyecolor. In wearing spectacles, it defeats the purpose of him having this. I'm amused that they've been able to find so many connections between the two, but if they miss even one explanation, then I'm certainly not convinced. Thank you, have a good day :D

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	shag_me_draco 2005-01-12 12:35 pm UTC (link)
	weasleys are generally known to have brown eyes. where in that does it say that they cant have blue eyes? Huh?? Huh? ;-) (Reply to this) (Parent)

you ever heard of AGING? - (Anonymous), 2005-02-12 09:45 pm UTC

wow...
(Anonymous)
2004-01-24 07:33 pm UTC (link)

I must admit I thought you all to be nutters, but after reading the evidence, I must also admit I think you have pretty good evidence of Dumbledore being Ron...

I don't know if I think its absolutely true, but I do think there's a pretty good chance that it could be...

(I think it was the point about Dumbledore seeing socks in the Mirror of Erised and saying somethign about "another Xmas without getting a pair" or something... Ron always gets socks for Xmas, and doesn't care about them... Do you think Dumbledore longs that he would actually get the chance to appreciate them??)

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	Re: wow... (Anonymous) 2005-01-29 09:32 pm UTC (link)
	No, he doesn't always get socks - his mum always makes him sweaters, as he pointedly says to Harry in SS while they're opening their x-mas gifts. (Reply to this) (Parent)

Question
(Anonymous)
2004-01-24 11:55 pm UTC (link)

This is a really cool theory, but one thing:
I have noticed that many of you claim that Ron can't stand Umbrigde, or Ron can't stand Snape, Ron is very insensitive to the House Elves welfare, etc. So Ron, though a loyal friend, is not so accepting of various characters, and is quick to draw conclusions about others. Then how can Ron, one who seems could hold a grudge very easily, become Dumbledore who not only is THE most tolerant and understanding person in the book, but actually defends/works with characters that Ron specifically despises (ie Snape, Kretcher, etc)? Especially with the series' strong emphasis on love, how can Ron change from a loyal, attached, yet biased character to a wise, unattached and very understanding school master? Keep in mind, she only has two books left to create/explain this change in character.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Question

lizardlaugh
2004-01-25 12:21 am UTC (link)

...two books... and 130 years...

Ron doesn't have to change in two books (though I think he will move in that direction, as he has already to some degree), he'll have 130 years to change, and time brings wisdom. Surely, no one is the same person at 15 as they are at 150 :)

Dumbledore still shows some distinctly 'Ron' characteristics, the most notable of which we discovered AFTER writing the essay. That is, his skepticism of Trelawney and Divination. I don't have my book handy, but if you read what Dumbledore tells Harry about wanting to discontinue Divination and how he thought Trelawney was a fraud, then read what Ron says about both Divination and his guess as to Dumbledore's (and his own) opinion of Trelawney in the very next chapter, you'll find they have more in common than a love for candy. Ron has no idea about the Prophecy or who made it or what it is about. He just knows that Voldemort was after a Prophecy (Harry never tells him). The encounter with Trelawney in the Hogs Head takes Dumbledore completely by surprise. He thought he'd just be rid of her and her stupid subject. A very Ron thing to try.

My dad pointed out to me something else... he made it in reference to R/Hr (I am swiss, myself), but it still holds regardless of ship, RE:the irony of what Ron is to become:

Hermione regularly gives Ron grief for his lack of subtlety and tact and, if there is anyone who embodies subtlety and tact in this series, it is Albus Dumbledore.

It's sort of poetic, in a way. You have this character who is impulsive and prejudiced and lacking in the social graces, but over time he grows into a very wise old man. Now, JKR can't show us Ron's whole life as Dumbledore, but she can have him talk about the wisdon he has gained over the years through experience.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Question -

shewhosparkles, 2004-07-13 03:48 am UTC

Re: Question -

shag_me_draco, 2005-01-12 01:00 pm UTC

Re: Question - (Anonymous), 2004-06-14 12:04 pm UTC

wisdom comes with age - (Anonymous), 2005-02-12 09:47 pm UTC

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