Reply to anamchara
Theory/Observation: Ron is not Dumbledore -- a reply. The original post can be found here. Knight2King can be found at http://www.knight2king.net
Character(s): Ron, Dumbledore...etc.
Abstract/summary: Because my replies to oh_contraire and anamchara ended up epic length, I am posting whole new posts rather than comments (it would have taken quite a few comments). Apologies for the flist spam...
Supporting evidence:

How can they both exist in the same time/space for *so* many years without negative consequences? Even Harry isn't that strong to *not* try and interfere with destiny (despite Hermione's warnings), so my lovable, yet impulsive Ron certainly wouldn't refrain from trying to influence his "younger" self. And...if Dumbledore was Ron, and in fact knew how this all exactly turns out, I think he'd have learned from his mistakes (such as assigning Snape to work on occlumency with Harry...and all that followed to lead to Sirius's death).

Ah, but Dumbledore does interfere to an extent (although its not *real* interfering -- see time travel essay in my post to oh_contraire). He makes Ron Prefect, after all ;) He offers to be a Secret Keeper for the Potters... He seriously considers not letting Trelawney teach Divination. He shows up just in time to save Harry from Quirrelmort. He sends Fawkes, the sword and the Sorting Hat in CoS, etc. Does he change things? No... but the nature of time travel is a different discussion, but basically, he can't *change* the future/present because he *created* it. Whatever he does -- purposeful deviation from his PoV or not -- results in the timeline we see. This is how it works in PoA, and this is how it would work here as well.

Now, you mention Snape teaching Occlumency as a mistake and causing the death of Sirius. I don't think this is the case (death of Sirius). Too many variables led to that one, and... this is one area where Ron/DD did NOT have perfect knowledge -- Harry doesn't tell Ron about what is contained in the Prophecy for similar reasons Dumbledore doesn't tell Harry in the first palce. Perhaps having Snape teach Harry Occlumency was a mistake, but DD had to have Harry learn Occlumency. Ron also, again, never hears of Dumbledore saying it was a mistake. Ron doesn't know it is a mistake. Harry doesn't tell the other kids about the discussion he and Dumbledore had in OotP. Personally, I don't think it was a mistake. The whole Occlumency mess led to one very, very important lesson -- Harry realizing his dad and Sirius were less than perfect. Also, I think if Snape is really good, he and Harry *must* learn to work together, but that is another topic for another day.

Also, Ron/DD does not know everything. Harry doesn't tell Ron everything *he* knows, nevermind the stuff Harry himself doesn't know. At any rate, while Ron/DD has good knowledge, he doesn't have perfect knowledge. He is not quite all knowing -- just most knowing.

Does he try to interfere in his own young life? Well, again, there is the Prefect!Ron thing ;) Other than that, we simply don't see Ron and Dumbledore interact often, however... there is a curious interaction in OotP in the scene where Harry tells Dumbledore about the attack on Arthur Weasley. In that scene, he is looking at Ron when he is asking Harry about Ron's dad. Well, and he also seems to know exactly what HArry saw... "as though he knew", but of course, Dumbledore can't be using Legilmency on Harry at this point (can't make eye contact). Dumbledore also makes reference to 'that excellent clock of hers (Molly's)' in that same scene.

I don't want Ron to be Dumbledore. I like them as separate characters (and I think it'd cheapen everything for JKR to take that route). I think Dumbledore *should* be able to make mistakes (like I believe he did in OotP) without it turning out to be Ron re-living and (not) revising an already determined future.

Well, can't really convince you if you just simply don't want Ron to be Dumbledore. Personally, I think it is incredible character development for Ron -- this youngest son, overshadowed by his accomplished older brothers, becomes the greatest wizard in recent memory. He goes from being rash and impulsive to great and wise... but still maintains his sense of humor and light. I think this is great. I think it actually brings depth to both characters and diminishes neither.

As for Dumbledore not making mistakes... of course he makes mistakes!!! He isn't perfect (I mean, he's RON, lol). He isn't all knowing. He knows a lot, but he doesn't know everything -- not even close! I think it is great for Ron/Dumbledore to make mistakes in spite of everything he knows. Dumbledore is still fallible... him being Ron does not, by any means, make him infallible. In fact, the fact that he is Ron with the same love for Harry is what led to his gravest error to date -- not telling Harry about the Prophecy. So... Dumbledore is not perfect. Being Ron doesn't make him perfect, if anything, it makes him less perfect and really makes the character of Dumbledore much, much more human in terms of his motivations.

The way I see it, Ron's personality is *nothing* like Dumbledore's (not on the big issues, anyway). I'd hate for Ron to lose any of his characteristic passion or hotheadedness to become the level-headed, sage, forward-thinking Dumbledore.

Ah, but you see... people change with time. 130 years is a very, very long time (I know peole hate it when I say that, but it is true). Ron and Dumbledore are more alike than they may seem. While Ron is hotheaded and impulsive, Dumbledore is not lacking in passion. Go back to the scene where Dumbledore lays the smackdown on the Ministry folk... the scene where he faces Voldie in the MoM... his Howler to Petunia... His love for Harry... his anger at the Dementors in PoA... his anger at Fudge in GoF.... He is still a passionate person. On the goofy!Ron side, we have the love of sweets and the subtle 'bothering Snape'. The best example of Dumbledore taking the piss out of Snape is the scene at Christmas in PoA where Dumbledore shares a wizarding cracker with Snape and it turns into the hat boggart!Snape wore. It's more Ron than Dumbledore :) His loyalty to Harry remains constant. His bravery remains constant. And, of course, there is chess. Ron is a master at a game of war; Dumbledore is a master at well, war. Ron's chess skills show he is a master strategist, and of course, Dumbledore is also a master strategist.

Now here is where it gets very interesting... Dumbledore and Ron both, on the whole, think Divination is bunk. In the scene where Dumbledore tells Harry about the Prophecy, he talks about how he didn't think Divination was precise magic, how he wanted to discontinue the teaching of the subject at Hogwarts and how he thought Trelawney a fraud. Now, keep in mind, Ron doesn't know what the Prophecy contained or that it was Trelawney who spoke the Prophecy. Contrast this with what Ron tells Harry in the hospital wing in the very next chapter:

"Bet Dumbledore wishes he could've got rid of Trewlawney for good," said Ron, now munching on his fourteenth Frog. "Mind you, the whole subject's useless if you as me, Firenze isn't a lot better..."

Indeed!

Dumbledore is a wise old man who has not lost his sense of fun. He gives Harry the cloak and lets him break the rules. Jokes about it even. Sure, he's changed, but I still see Ron. Especially in front of the Mirror of Erised when he complains of getting books instead of socks ;)

The idea that Ron and Dumbledore are one and the same, though intriguing, actually diminishes both characters. I believe Ron to be brave and loyal and strong and vital to the success of Harry and the war *in his own right*. So for Ron to help save the world as *Dumbledore* cheapens his youthful contribution. I don't want to see Ron's role and significance lessened or divided by the (also invaluable) part Dumbledore plays. They should each have a pivotal role in the outcome of this war, but they should have differing purposes. They should not be so intertwined as to be the same character.

While Ron and Dumbledore are the same person, they are different characters. However, part of Ron's youthful contribution is/will be sacrificing himself for Harry. It also what he has been doing all along -- being there for Harry, fighting along side him. All along Ron's greatest virtue is his bravery and loyalty -- going so far as to sacrifice himself (possibly his life)in order for Harry to get the Stone in the first book. This is also what he will do in the end for Harry by becoming Dumbledore. Then, as Dumbledore, he takes on a whole new role in the story and in Harry's life. Perhaps this is a personal issue, and one that you won't be convinced on, but for me... it makes me love both Ron and Dumbledore even more. There are certain Dumbledore scenes now that just make me cry when I read them... and maybe I am just a sap, but it makes everything Dumbledore says and does layered in meaning. The sock, the scene in DD's office in OotP... It deepens the relationship both characters have to Harry. Ron and Dumbledore both have their individual contributions still... they just happen to be the same person, removed by many, many years.

Not the least of my reasons against this hypothesis is the fact that, for Ron to go back in time to live out his life as Dumbledore, Ron would (at some point in the books) have to appear to die. Otherwise, the dual identity wouldn't work. And I refuse to believe that Ron will die. He absolutely won't. In addition, Dumbledore would have to live to explain it (since the books are told from Harry's POV). And I honestly don't expect Dumbledore to survive the series.

Well, Ron won't die until Dumbledore dies if he becomes Dumbledore, lol. I think when/if it happens, it will be close to the end of Book Seven. Will it be like the character of Ron dying? As far as Harry is concerned, yes it will. And yes I think that it is sad that if Harry lives, he won't get to grow old with his best friend. Heck, I am a Harry/Ron shipper even. So yes, it makes me sad. I admit that the whole thing is just heaped in tragedy, and I do love young!Ron (I love Dumbledore!Ron too though). However... Ron does indeed live and he goes on to live a very long full life of accomplishment aside from just getting Harry where he needs to be.

As for Dumbledore not surviving the series... I think he has to explain things to Harry, yes. However, there are other ways for him to tell Harry what happened. Maybe he kept a diary? Maybe he puts everything in the Pensieve for Harry to see first hand? So, while I would prefer Dumbledore not to die because I love Dumbledore, I can see why his death might seem necessary, especially to those who think JKR is writing strictly along the lines of the archtypal heroic epic. The hero has to lose his mentor (and as much as *I* hate to admit it... it may be necessary), but that doesn't mean that Harry won't get an explanation from Dumbledore -- there are other means.


</i>If Dumbledore (as a time-traveling Ron) knew everything....why wouldn't he have done more to prevent the early injustices to Sirius? At the least, he could've alerted someone to the fact that Peter was alive (or alerted his younger self that Scabbers wasn't to be trusted). It seems illogical, to me, that Rumbledore (or Dumbleron;) would allow Voldemort to *almost* return in each of the books, just to offer Harry, et al, the opportunity and challenge of preventing it. Even knowing the supposed "outcome", would Rumbledore still put Ginny at such risk in CoS? The Ron I believe him to be, wouldn't. While I would expect Ron to mature and change with age, I hope he'd never lose his ability to be almost unthinkingly forthright. We all know that Dumbledore *isn't*. He's kept many a secret, and I don't think they've all been for completely honest or altruistic reasons. </i>

Ok, here is where I have to bring up Dumbledore's dirty little secret -- Dumbledore knew about Peter and Sirius all along because he is a Legilimens. The Order *knew* they had a traitor. Dumbledore had the means to figure it all out quite simply by asking questions and looking people in the eye. If he isn't Ron, well... that puts him an even worse light because he doesn't know how it all ends. Similarly, Dumbledore comes off as downright insane in PS/SS (allowing a known servant of VOldie teach DADA, setting up the capture of the Stone -- even Harry figured out that Dumbledore set the whole thing up) and CoS (keeping the school open when he knew first hand what the monster in the Chamber was capable of).

As for Ginny, I think that Ginny's experience will be very, very important later. It will instrumental, and Ron/DD knows this. That, or he just couldn't change things. Just couldn't. So, again, Dumbledore isn't Ron... he still set Harry up against a Basilisk with nothing more than Fawkes, a sword and a hat. I mean, if Ron!Dumbledore is insane, Dumbledore!Dumbledore is even more insane. At least Ron knows it turns out okay in the end.


I think a lot of your reasons for disagreement are very personal... and that is ok. I am a great lover of Ron myself, but this makes me actually love him even more. I don't know.. we all have different emotional reactions to the characters. I am pretty sure that if JKR does the Ron=DD thing, some people are going to be very upset by it. If she kills Harry, I personally will never read the books again (though I will totally respect her decision). So, I do understand where you are coming from on this. My emotional reaction to Ron and Dumbledore is completely different -- being one in the same raises them both in my eyes.