anamchara ([info]anamchara) wrote in [info]unplottables,
@ 2004-02-17 23:31:00
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Current mood: contemplative

Ron is not Dumbledore
Theory/Observation: Ron is not Dumbledore
Character(s) and/or artifact (s): Ron, Dumbledore (minorly Harry, Hermione, Sirius, Peter)
Abstract/summary: Others have postulated that Ron and Dumbledore are, in fact, one and the same. I disagree. Here's why.
Supporting evidence:


I respect those who formulated the Ron = Dumbledore hypothesis. They did their research and presented their case well. That said, here's my initial counterpoint. I disagree, and believe that Ron and Dumbledore are separate characters, both of whom will play an important role in the war's endgame. As this is my first written draft, future additions and much tweaking may occur. However...

I think my reasons are thus:

How can they both exist in the same time/space for *so* many years without negative consequences? Even Harry isn't that strong to *not* try and interfere with destiny (despite Hermione's warnings), so my lovable, yet impulsive Ron certainly wouldn't refrain from trying to influence his "younger" self. And...if Dumbledore was Ron, and in fact knew how this all exactly turns out, I think he'd have learned from his mistakes (such as assigning Snape to work on occlumency with Harry...and all that followed to lead to Sirius's death).

Mostly, my point comes down to:

I don't want Ron to be Dumbledore. I like them as separate characters (and I think it'd cheapen everything for JKR to take that route). I think Dumbledore *should* be able to make mistakes (like I believe he did in OotP) without it turning out to be Ron re-living and (not) revising an already determined future.

The way I see it, Ron's personality is *nothing* like Dumbledore's (not on the big issues, anyway). I'd hate for Ron to lose any of his characteristic passion or hotheadedness to become the level-headed, sage, forward-thinking Dumbledore. The idea that Ron and Dumbledore are one and the same, though intriguing, actually diminishes both characters. I believe Ron to be brave and loyal and strong and vital to the success of Harry and the war *in his own right*. So for Ron to help save the world as *Dumbledore* cheapens his youthful contribution. I don't want to see Ron's role and significance lessened or divided by the (also invaluable) part Dumbledore plays. They should each have a pivotal role in the outcome of this war, but they should have differing purposes. They should not be so intertwined as to be the same character. Not the least of my reasons against this hypothesis is the fact that, for Ron to go back in time to live out his life as Dumbledore, Ron would (at some point in the books) have to appear to die. Otherwise, the dual identity wouldn't work. And I refuse to believe that Ron will die. He absolutely won't. In addition, Dumbledore would have to live to explain it (since the books are told from Harry's POV). And I honestly don't expect Dumbledore to survive the series.

If Dumbledore (as a time-traveling Ron) knew everything....why wouldn't he have done more to prevent the early injustices to Sirius? At the least, he could've alerted someone to the fact that Peter was alive (or alerted his younger self that Scabbers wasn't to be trusted). It seems illogical, to me, that Rumbledore (or Dumbleron;) would allow Voldemort to *almost* return in each of the books, just to offer Harry, et al, the opportunity and challenge of preventing it. Even knowing the supposed "outcome", would Rumbledore still put Ginny at such risk in CoS? The Ron I believe him to be, wouldn't. While I would expect Ron to mature and change with age, I hope he'd never lose his ability to be almost unthinkingly forthright. We all know that Dumbledore *isn't*. He's kept many a secret, and I don't think they've all been for completely honest or altruistic reasons.

At length, I love Ron and I love Dumbledore, but I'll be disappointed if JKR tries to merge them into one all-knowing character. That'd be a cop-out.

Anyone have something to add?

The original theory that my thoughts are refuting can be found here: Ron is Dumbledore Theory. I need to give all props to those who came up with it, as they really offer a thorough, thought-provoking case. I just don't quite buy into their conclusions.

x-posted to my LJ.




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[info]anamchara
2004-02-17 08:35 pm UTC (link)
Sorry, the link didn't post right. Here's the actual original Ron is Dumbledore theory.

(Reply to this)


[info]lady_eldarwen
2004-02-17 08:55 pm UTC (link)
so my lovable, yet impulsive Ron certainly wouldn't refrain from trying to influence his "younger" self.
I think this is actually support for the R=D theory. He is the player moving the pieces and is encourageing things to happen the way they are happening.

(such as assigning Snape to work on occlumency with Harry...and all that followed to lead to Sirius's death).
This sort of goes along with the needed sacrifice. Ron knew he had to sacrifice that other knight first, and many others after that including himself, to make it to the ultimate end.

I don't believe their being the same could lessen either part. Gollum/Smeagol of LotR is a clear example of one person but two characters. Ron's loyalty could be the very thing that makes it all work in the end. A needed sacrifice to make it turn out alright. Also the dynamics of character to change over soooo many years is interesting. He's still hotheaded in need (howler) but since he knows he can count on young rash Ron to take care of that part he can work on other things.

He could very well be the only reason Harry is alive at all and with no Harry (or backup Neville) you have a dark lord without any way of being stopped.

As for the main point of Ron would have to change things...he can't. The time tuner part of PoA made it clear that it's a single timeline and nothing changes. They saved Buckbeak before they had even traveled back because there is only one string. Therefore things would have to be that way. Ginny perhaps needs that experience maybe it changes her in some key way for the future and to change her life would take something from her. (see butterfly effect for extreme example) If not Ginny then who? If Sirius had been let go and Peter nabbed would it have stopped anything? Had Harry had access to the wizarding world sooner would he have been the Harry he is or more like Malfoy? Would he have chosen Ron over Draco? Who would any of them be with events changed. Did Harry need to see the consequence of arrogance and letting down your guard to save himself later? Did Cedric need to die to show Harry what this all meant? Voldemort did NEED to become coporeal in order to later die completely. We hate teh Dursleys and what they do to Harry but it may well matter in the future and the past that things went as they did.

(re-read this and realized fan-fic, even the god awful AU stuff helps you learn some key things.)

Dumbledore knew he needed to be at Hogwarts and not the ministry, that Hagrid was innocent, that Sirius was equipped to handle Azkaban and so much more. I can't say I believe they HAVE to be the same person but they may very well be.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re:
[info]laurac0re
2004-02-17 09:17 pm UTC (link)
that's pretty much what I was going to say, only put much more succinctly.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: - [info]lady_eldarwen, 2004-02-17 09:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]anamchara, 2004-02-18 03:19 pm UTC

[info]kaiz
2004-02-17 09:27 pm UTC (link)
A couple of counter-thoughts:

How can they both exist in the same time/space for *so* many years without negative consequences?

Harry and Hermione existed just fine in the same time-line during their time jaunt in PoA. In particular, Hermione had been time hopping all year to attend her classes. Thus far, we've seen no evidence that JKR's universe time travelling has any kind of dire implications for a person existing in the same time as his time-travelled self (other than the standard "be careful not to change anything because you might write yourself out of history!")

Harry isn't that strong to *not* try and interfere with destiny (despite Hermione's warnings), so my lovable, yet impulsive Ron certainly wouldn't refrain from trying to influence his "younger" self.

If Dumbledore really *is* Ron, then he's had some 100+ years to understand the implications of dinking around with his own time line. He's *not* an impulsive boy anymore. He knows what is going to happen up to a certain point in the future (the point at which he travels back in time--presumably sometime in Book 6 or 7). He knows that certain things--horrid though they may seem (i.e. Sirius falsely imprisoned, the Potter's dying)--*must* happen in order for the timeline to remain coherent. He also knows that if he mucks with things too much (i.e. trying to save Lily and James), an even *worse* fate might come to pass. (He would *also* have very curious blind spots since Harry didn't tell Ron everything.)

Not the least of my reasons against this hypothesis is the fact that, for Ron to go back in time to live out his life as Dumbledore, Ron would (at some point in the books) have to appear to die. Otherwise, the dual identity wouldn't work.

Ron doesn't have to die. Ron has to travel back in time for the theory to work. So, at some point in the future, Ron will be sent back in time--perhaps to Harry, et al. he will *appear* to die, or disappear--and be forced to assume a new identity and live the 100-odd years up to the present.

It seems illogical, to me, that Rumbledore (or Dumbleron;) would allow Voldemort to *almost* return in each of the books, just to offer Harry, et al, the opportunity and challenge of preventing it.

It's logical because Dumbledore has no idea exactly *what* he could change without it resulting in even *worse* consequences than what he knew had already happened (in the future). Dumbledore can't possibly be certain what the reprecussions would be if he doesn't conform to what he (as Ron) *knows* has already happened. The only safe bet is to do exactly what he (as Ron) knows has happened. Only after Ron has departed back to the past is Dumbledore *truly* free to do as he wishes, since he'll have no clue at that point what happens next.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re:
[info]anamchara
2004-02-18 05:29 pm UTC (link)
Again, like this entire case/theory, I *know* that the proponents of it make a strong argument. I still disagree, and the reasons are still somewhat vague, but insistent.

In terms of the time-travel, Harry and Hermione went back for short periods of time, and there were consequences. Even with a clear objective, and warning from Hermione, Harry is insistent on trying to see the person who he initially believes is his father. Hermione warned him not to let his other self see him, yet that is almost immediately what he disregards. Regardless of how that turns out, I think it's significant. Ron, I believe, would be even less able to refrain from changing things. Particularly when reliving a history that he (as a kid) shares.

Also, Dumbledore's lack of impulse is exactly why I don't *want* them to be one and the same. I don't want Ron to lose that characteristic. I *like* Ron as an impulsive, fly-by-the-seat-of-his pants kind of guy. I don't want him to lose that to become as Dumbledore is. I *like* that about him, and I think that makes him a good match for Hermione and offers a good balance for the three of them.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]kaiz, 2004-02-18 09:05 pm UTC
Re: - [info]anamchara, 2004-02-19 03:55 pm UTC
Re: - (Anonymous), 2004-05-17 06:33 am UTC
Re: - [info]anamchara, 2004-05-17 06:40 pm UTC
New observation to support Ron=Dumbledore
[info]esmaraldo
2004-02-18 03:21 am UTC (link)
In the 3rd (or something, can't be bothered to dig my books out from underneath the bed to check)

Ron borrows Hermione's book for extra bedtime reading. This shows that Ron has substance to be Dumbledore. We can see that he like books, not as much as Hermione does, but he likes to read all the less.

Ron, in the H.P world doesn't seem to be a book person. Dumbladore doesn't seem like one either (he's more interested in sweets), we just know that he's wise. Ron himself, at that early age is "wise" compared to his friends. He has a more extensive knowlage of wizarding things.

J.K Rowling by telling us that Ron reads, is perhaps hinting at the connection between Ron and Dumbledore.

*exhausted*

I hope that made sence! It's not very easy getting your thoughts onto paper; expecially when your thoughts are all intwined into a huge mess.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: New observation to support Ron=Dumbledore
[info]liwy
2004-02-18 07:11 am UTC (link)
Ron, in the H.P world doesn't seem to be a book person. Dumbledore doesn't seem like one either (he's more interested in sweets), we just know that he's wise. Ron himself, at that early age is "wise" compared to his friends. He has a more extensive knowledge of wizarding things.

Harry and Hermione were raised in the muggle world. If Ron knows more about the wizarding world, that wouldn't mean anything truly significant.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: New observation to support Ron=Dumbledore - [info]esmaraldo, 2004-02-18 07:27 am UTC
Re: New observation to support Ron=Dumbledore - [info]anamchara, 2004-02-18 05:34 pm UTC
Re: New observation to support Ron=Dumbledore - [info]shewhosparkles, 2004-07-13 05:46 am UTC
just because I don't want it to be true - [info]elvinborn, 2004-02-18 08:34 pm UTC
Re: just because I don't want it to be true - [info]anamchara, 2004-02-19 04:21 pm UTC
Re: New observation to support Ron=Dumbledore - (Anonymous), 2004-08-20 03:13 pm UTC
Re: New observation to support Ron=Dumbledore - [info]skepanie, 2004-09-20 03:32 pm UTC

[info]robini
2004-02-18 11:48 pm UTC (link)
I do have to agree with [info]anamchara in that I think Ron-->Dumbledore is far too dramatic a character change to be justified by any amount of character development. I guess I see a character as made up of two basic parts - 1) the part that changes and matures as time moves on/life moves forward and 2) certain basic, core principals that are unique the character and from which all other traits spring.

The thing that I think makes it hardest for me to buy the Ron=Dumbledore wholly is Ron's core trait of being heady and almost careless in his enthusiasm to jump in and defend his friends. While it is true that 100 years is a long time, I do not believe that any amount of time could make Ron as reserved and occasionally passive as Dumbledore is, especially in book 5.

[info]lady_eldarwen said: The time tuner part of PoA made it clear that it's a single timeline and nothing changes.

Well, I think that that actually has its own associated paradox - In POA, the timeline worked out right because Harry interfered. It was in Harry's nature to do so – he was curious, and he wanted to find out why he'd seen his father, thus causign the effect in the past.

So, rather than look at the timeline as “DumbleRon (love the term, btw) knew what had to happen, so he did it,” we need to combine who he is with the events that occurred. There's an interesting Terry Pratchett novel (discworld, I think) where just such a paradox is confronted, and the main characters are sent back in time. The question arises: "what do we do?" and the answer, simply enough, is "whatever we feel like – after all, where we're from, we've already done it. That's how we got here." Therefore, it seems logical was going to happen was going to happen regardless of what Ron/DD did. Ron would not have to change who he was/is in order to secure the timeline, because whatever was done had to be done in the first place first, if that makes any sense. I guess what I mean to say is that, if Ron/DD had wanted to interfere, Ron-the-kid would remember him interfering with the timeline the "first time around". Much as when Harry wanted to interfere, he saw himself interfering, and would thus grow up to interfere. So I think there are some flaws in the "he knew what had to happen" argument.

Also Dumbledore's regretful tears/"I made a mistake" at the end of that book seem uncharacteristic of one who is shaping both present's past and the past's future with his actions. After all, if it had to be that way, it's not a mistake. And if it truly *is* a mistake well, Ron hasn't gone back yet so he still has time to fix it.

[info]kaizsaid:He also knows that if he mucks with things too much (i.e. trying to save Lily and James), an even *worse* fate might come to pass.

This, I think comes back to core character traits. Really – it's true that events could have gone a lot worse, but given Ron's core character, if he had the foresight I would think he would be a lot more proactive than Dumbledore seems to be. Because it's equally valid to say could have gone a lot better. And honestly, when in the HP series has Ron NOT acted on behalf of a friend who really needed him, regardless of consequences? Maturity can tone that down, but not erase it entirely. I think that Dumbledore's inaction violates that core character principal, and no amount of time or growth can explain that away.

I do however, think that the Ron=DD theory is very cool and well put together, and the amount of evidence for it is pretty striking. While it violates my personal view on character consistency (And effectively contradicts my beloved R/H, since it gives them a rather unsatisfying story arc), it's an interesting and compelling idea with an inordinate amount of backing evidence.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re:
[info]robini
2004-02-18 11:51 pm UTC (link)
On a side note, I'm just wondering if anyone from the Ron=DD camp has considered that perhaps Hermione goes back with him? I know in the chess game it's only Ron who is sacrificed, but after the potions trial it's Hermione who must "go back" with him to save him.

This of course begs the question of where is Hermione would end up if she went back, but... Hrm

*begins work on "Hermione=Crookshanks" theory: now there's someone who messes with the timeline and knows more than he should...*

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: - [info]simarilian, 2004-02-19 08:22 am UTC
Re: - [info]anamchara, 2004-02-19 04:04 pm UTC
Re: - [info]lizardlaugh, 2004-02-20 09:18 pm UTC
Re: - [info]anamchara, 2004-02-21 05:35 pm UTC
Re: - [info]lizardlaugh, 2004-02-20 09:21 pm UTC
Sorry, Hermione can't be McGonnigal - (Anonymous), 2004-03-05 02:31 pm UTC
Re: Sorry, Hermione can't be McGonnigal - [info]anamchara, 2004-03-08 04:02 pm UTC
Re: Sorry, Hermione can't be McGonnigal - (Anonymous), 2004-03-09 12:51 pm UTC
Re: Sorry, Hermione can't be McGonnigal - (Anonymous), 2004-05-17 06:44 am UTC
Re: Sorry, Hermione can't be McGonnigal - [info]anamchara, 2004-05-17 06:46 pm UTC
Re: - [info]anamchara, 2004-02-19 04:02 pm UTC

[info]simarilian
2004-02-18 11:53 pm UTC (link)
Here's one point to Consider. How often are Ron and Dumbledore interacting? Book 3 after they run into the Whomping Willow. In Book 3 Dumbledore only appears to Harry and Hermione after Ron is disabled. In Book 5 Ron has been effected by the brain before Dumbledore appears. But most of the times it is Harry and Dumbledore alone. Dumbledore isn't trying to effect Ron. He's trying to direct Harry.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re:
[info]anamchara
2004-02-19 04:06 pm UTC (link)
Good point, although, because of Harry, he's forced to involve Ron and Hermione (they wouldn't allow that *not* to be the case). And what affects Harry, affects Ron.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: - [info]sunnyrea, 2004-06-05 12:03 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]shewhosparkles, 2004-07-13 05:58 am UTC
More evidence
[info]xcharliex
2004-02-19 01:22 am UTC (link)
This is from memory, but in CoS, Ron says his favourite Quidditch team is the Chudley Cannons (when Harry goes into Rons room for the first time.) In Quidditch Through The Ages, in the foreword by Dumbledore, he wishes the best of luck to Puddlemore United. It doesn't say that he supports them, but why would he wish them luck if he supported someone else?
And after seeing how enthusiastic Ron is about Quidditch teams (his outburst at Cho, which was understandable), I find it hard to believe he would change teams.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: More evidence
[info]lizardlaugh
2004-02-19 01:45 am UTC (link)
I haven't had a chance to respond to the original poster yet (sorry). Been busy, but I will be back, lol. I LOVE Ron, I LOVE Dumbledore and I do think there are more similarities between Ron and Dumbledore than meet the eye... or were discussed in Knight2King... will get back to that.

However, must address the Quidditch thing... two points:

1. Oliver Wood plays for Puddlemore United as of GoF (QttA was written between GoF and OotP). He's a former student, and Ron took his position on the team. I think this would be a natural thing

2. Dumbledore actually does mention the Chudley Cannons in the introduction... something about them losing and dismaying their fans. I have my book packed away, but they are indeed mentioned by Dumbledore.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: More evidence - [info]xcharliex, 2004-02-19 03:51 am UTC
Re: More evidence - [info]anamchara, 2004-02-19 04:17 pm UTC
Re: More evidence - [info]sycocallie, 2004-09-05 05:52 am UTC
Re: More evidence - [info]shag_me_draco, 2005-01-12 01:55 pm UTC

[info]boniblithe
2004-02-19 06:59 am UTC (link)
Ron = Dumbledore is a cute theory in an "awwww" kind of way, but none of the arguments I have read by the supporters seems to be anything more to me than grasping at straws. If twisted enough, you can say Neville = Dumbledore with the same degree of certainty.

There are no Ron memories in Dumbledore's pensieve. And as far as I know, you can't plant false memories in a pensieve, although wouldn't that make for an interesting plot twist.

But Ron is not Dumbledore. Ron is Ron and Albus is Albus. Although the Weasleys and the Dumbledores could be related, cousins or something.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re:
[info]anamchara
2004-02-19 04:10 pm UTC (link)
Precisely, yes. That is what I think. I mean, it just seems so far-fetched to imagine that JKR would work to develop two very *different* characters, just to have us revise our impression of them at this late date. That's why I thought it'd be a cop-out if she did...because I just can't buy them as the same person. Their traits are different enough that not even time/age would alter that. She'd have to do a hella lot to convince me, at this point.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: - [info]lizardlaugh, 2004-02-20 09:12 pm UTC

[info]ixchelmala
2004-02-24 01:39 am UTC (link)
My dear, I'm documenting the evolution of this theory, so I want to know if I may either link your post or use the source on the K2K site. There a couple of others that are being added as well. Thanks!

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]anamchara
2004-02-24 04:42 am UTC (link)
Absolutely! That'd be wonderful, thanks. :)

And I'd just like to say that I really am impressed with the entire theory, regardless of how it eventually turns out in the books. I may not necessarily buy into it all as yet, but I'm astounded and awed at the work, time, effort and thought you all put into it.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Ron = DD
(Anonymous)
2004-04-02 06:58 pm UTC (link)
My problem is: why would Ron go back in time?
The only reason I can think of is - if Voldemort won!! and Ron could only escape by
going back in time. This however, conflicts with the chess game where Harry wins.
On the other hand, Ron=DD supports JKR's thesis that what is important are the choices we make. If time cannot be changed, that means we live in a determinisitic world. She suggests so when the time lines do change. However, if we have free will, then the future/past is not set, and can be changed. The problem is, because of free will, DD cannot anticipate what choices the characters will make. Thus, the only way DD/Ron could change the past/future is not by manipulating people (because our free choice would interfear) but by manipulating situations within which we make those choices.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Ron = DD
[info]sunnyrea
2004-06-05 12:02 am UTC (link)
It could be perhaps that it was Ron's destiny to go back in time because if he didn't there would be no Dumbledore (This is all just possibility if the theory is correct mind you). Dumbledore was very necessariy in all 5 books, often coming to save the day at points or do something that if he had not been there more people would have died. Ron perhaps had to go back in time because since he knew the history of where Dumbledore helped that he could place himself (Dumbledore) right where he needed to be when he needed to be there with uncanny knowledge of the events. Of course this brings in the question of time in a loop and what happened first but its an idea.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Ron = DD - [info]anamchara, 2004-06-12 06:51 pm UTC
Ron = DD...but only partally. - [info]blacknoise, 2004-07-04 08:41 am UTC
One firm counter-argument to the Ron=Dumbledore theory
[info]sjl
2004-04-04 11:53 pm UTC (link)
(Already emailed to the guys behind the posting at knight2king, but I might as well post it here as well for all to see :)

Consider this. (Apologies for the very badly mangled quote; I don't have the books here at work with me.) Towards the end of PoA, Dumbledore says something to the effect of "Sirius, James Potter, and co did very well to become Animages. I'm especially impressed that they kept it hidden from me." But hang on. If Ron was Dumbledore... well, let me digress a little bit.

In GoF, Sirius rocks up to the village (whose name I've forgotten...) near Hogwarts to meet up with Harry, Hermione, and Ron. These three meet him whilst he is in his dog form, and follow him up to his hiding hole, where he changes back to his human form. Ergo, Ron is very much aware that Sirius is an Animage. And I'm fairly certain that Ron was present for the exposition on how Lupin, James Potter, Sirius, and Wormtongue interacted (in PoA, although I can't remember if he was conscious at the time... I think so, but I won't swear to it.)

So if Ron went back in time to become Dumbledore ... how come Dumbledore admitted to not knowing that Sirius and co became Animages to support Lupin? I'm sure that Ron was very much aware of the whole situation, and thus, Dumbledore would too.

It's a very nifty theory, and there's a lot of interesting ideas offered up as supporting evidence... but frankly, I'm not convinced. If somebody bet me (even money) that Ron would become Dumbledore, I'd take them up on it. I feel that there are other reasons to explain a number of the points raised in support of the Ron=Dumbledore theory; some (such as the All Flavour Beans) might just take some time to explain, or maybe it's a minor glitch in the HP universe. Of course, the opposite is also possible: the comment referenced above could also be a minor glitch.

When you get right down to it, there's only one thing anybody can say for certain: "Time will tell."

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: One firm counter-argument to the Ron=Dumbledore theory
[info]bongirl5
2004-04-20 12:18 am UTC (link)
That's a very, very good point. I'd be interested to see how this is explained away if the Ron=DD theory turns out to be true, because that would be a HUGE discrepency. I'm surprised nobody else brought this up. But I definitely agree that the Ron=DD theory is very well thought-out and well written, and makes one think.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: One firm counter-argument to the Ron=Dumbledore theory - [info]anamchara, 2004-06-12 07:02 pm UTC
Re: One firm counter-argument to the Ron=Dumbledore theory - [info]dramastace, 2004-06-19 12:11 am UTC
Not entirely sure who to believe
[info]ellipsisblack
2004-04-14 03:56 am UTC (link)
It was a while ago, but reading through all the comments, whoever said "Ron borrowed Hermoine's book for a bit of bedtime reading" really doesn't read much into tone. I mean that was a sarcastic comment if ever I heard one. It's a very random theory for Dumbledore to be Ron, but a lot of effort seems to be going into it. i think ron has hidden talents in wizadry he just hasn't unlocked yet, and Dumbledore could well acutally be extremely loyal, just not so headstrong as his younger self.

(Reply to this)


(Anonymous)
2004-04-19 09:26 pm UTC (link)
What about Dumbledore's brother? In OotP, Moody shows Harry a picture of the first Order. "That's Dumbledore's brother, Aberforth, only time I ever met him, strange bloke..." If DD=Ron, where did the extra brother come from?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]seiyaharris
2004-06-20 03:48 pm UTC (link)
There is a theory in amongst the Ron=Dumbldore theory concerning this. There's two actually. The first is, that Ron is in fact the 7th Weasley boy, that there was another brother between Charlie and Percy who died during the war which took place when Harry and Ron were babies. It's suggested that Ron, after being told/deciding he has to go back and become Albus, goes back to the time his brother 'died', grabs him, and goes back again to the time of young Dumbledore.
The other theory is that it's just a wizard called Aberfoth Dumbldore who takes in Ron as his brother, for whatever reason.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]flutist8314
2004-04-21 07:30 pm UTC (link)
I was just looking at some pictures of posters for the next HP movie. There were individuals of Harry, Ron and Hermione and each one had a professor in the background. Dumbledore was in Ron's. It could be just coincidence though.. I'm not sure how subliminal these advertisements are.
Anyway, I was just randomly passing by here and felt like sharing. Um..have a happy Earth Day tomorrow!

(Reply to this)

Further points
[info]bree379
2004-04-22 09:39 am UTC (link)
I've been a HP fan for many years, and I've read the books more times than I can count. I didn't stumble upon this "Ron is Dumbledore" theory until about two days ago. I'm rereading Goblet of Fire right now, and I must say the story is completely different if you read it thinking that Ron and Dumbledore are the same person. I'm open to radical ideas, and although far fetched (as it has never crossed my mind ;)), this one has been thoroughly researched and seems entirely probable. But there are a few weak points in it, and along with what has already been said, I would like to add a few points.

As I was reading the chapter "Rita Skeeter's Scoop," I noticed specifically for the first time that Dumbledore claims to have a brother, Alberforth:
"Hagrid, look what I've got for relatives! Harry said furiously. "Look at the Dursleys!"
"An excellent point," said Professor Dumbledore. "My own brother, Aberforth, was prosecuted for practicing inappropriate charms on a goat. It was all over the papers, but did Aberforth hide? No, he did not..."
Of course, it's always a possibility that Dumbledore has merely changed the name of one of Ron's brothers, but that doesn't really seem to match Rowling's writing style. If Rowling is making a point that she wants the reader to later realize the true implications of(like Hagrid arriving on Sirius' bike, which is mentioned in the first book, but not really anything the reader takes notice of until the third book), she doesn't later nullify her credibility by "tricking the reader."

Also, if Ron is Dumbledore, he has indeed tried to change things. Recall when Harry learns of the secret keeper, it's said that Dumbledore tried to convince the Potters to use him instead of Sirius. If that's the case, Dumbleron was trying to avoid the Potters ever being found, but then Voldemort would have continued to gain power and not have been destroyed that night by his own spell. I doubt that if Dumbleron did not want to alter Harry defeating Voldemort each year at school, that he would want to alter it from the very beginning. Things could have been much worse for the wizarding world if James and Lily Potter had not died protecting Harry.

And now a point that can be very easily argued by accrediting magic, but I feel I still need to make it. Time travel, all in all, is a very confusing thing. One theory is that if a time machine is built, one cannot travel beyond the date it was built. So if a time machine were built today, and I wanted to use it, I would have to wait until tomorrow and then only travel to yesterday. Because if the machine did not exist, then how can you go back and use it? It's rather the same thing with the time turner. Hermione and Harry are able to use it because they already exist in the time in which they want to travel. Ron, on the other hand, did not exist 150 years ago, so time in itself would not work. History would continue happily along until Ron appeared 150 years ago, but he had not even been born yet, so how could he exist? I know this is a more theological point, but it is once again one of the reasons I *personally* have trouble with the Dumbleron hypothesis.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's amazing, especially the socks part. But all in all I'm not totally convinced.

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Re: Further points
[info]anamchara
2004-04-23 06:22 am UTC (link)
Excellent points, all. While I agree, and have said, that the DumbleRon theory is magnificent in its thoroughness (and I highly admire those who put it together), I'm just *not* convinced.

It is interesting to speculate, however, and I guess we'll all find out when the final books are released.

::waits very *impatiently* for Book Six::

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Re: Further points - (Anonymous), 2004-04-24 06:09 pm UTC
Re: Further points - [info]seiyaharris, 2004-06-20 03:56 pm UTC

[info]nastyelfbread
2004-05-02 10:58 pm UTC (link)
I'm probably over-looking something obvious here... (and the Aberforth bit caught my attention as well)

When Ron is first living his life out without ... well... I dunno. I'm so confused. So there's one line. If Ron is re-living his life through Dumbledore - where is the Dumbledore that was there the first time he was there? Who is that guy? Did he get killed? And the brother... and Dumbledore's family and name... it's obviously credible. Had to of come from somewhere. Ron couldn't make it up. And Ron can't be a man from two different pure-blood families. I just think Dumbledore is a very talented and wise man with many allies and 'helpers' and special ways of learning information -which doesn't rule out time travel all together, just not necessarily as Ron- and has a fate of his own. I was extremely interested in all of it when I first read this theory this morning. I went to work and thought it through all day and I still had the same questions that couldn't be answered and contradicted the theory. If Ron was Dumbledore... history would just keep repeating itself over and over and over again, without there first being a Dumbledore that isn't Ron. There has to be. *sigh* I love Ron and agree with those who think he is his own character and is around for reasons that don't entirely include Dumbledore.

-Bec

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this is what I keep asking myself, also
[info]cheeringcharm
2004-05-03 09:25 pm UTC (link)
First I have to say, I love, love this theory. It really sucks you in. And, as I was saying to a friend through IM, this is exactly something JKR would do. She agreed, using the impossibility of Peter/Scabbers before reading PoA.

"If Ron is re-living his life through Dumbledore - where is the Dumbledore that was there the first time he was there? Who is that guy?"

While reading the chess/Rumbledore theory, I kept wondering this myself.

When Ron does go back in time, will this just all happen over and over again?

The entire theory of time travel is so confusing, and implausible. I guess to accept any bit of that as a valid idea you have to suspend reality and our grasp on time. Which, is very difficult to do.

Interesting theory. I can't wait to see if it is true.

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More Reincarnations?
(Anonymous)
2004-05-17 07:02 am UTC (link)
So far, the ideas that Ron=Dumbledore and Hermione=McGonagall have been raised. If these are indeed true, what about Harry? Having just thought of this five minutes ago, it is not exactly as well thought out as the Ron=Dumbledore argument, but consider this: What if Harry was sent back and became Voldemort? Remarkably similar appearances, same wand, very powerful at a young age, killed two people at relatively young ages... We know Harry's becoming darker and more arrogant... yes, I know it's far-fetched, but it is amusing seeing the trend towards dividing our heroes in two (Dumbledore, McGonagall, Ron, and Hermione into Rumbledon and Hermerva, or Herminagall).

Interesting thought though... could be interesting fan-fiction...

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Re: More Reincarnations?
[info]seiyaharris
2004-06-20 04:03 pm UTC (link)
I've seen the Hermione=McGonagall thing about but haven't read it, somehow, I find that completely impossible, but am open to Ron=Dumbledore lol
As for Harry=Voldemort. Nice theory, but would work in practice. Their wands aren't the same, they just both have feathers from Fawkes' tail, Voldemort's is longer, and made of Yew, whereas Harry's is made of Holly. Also, Tom Riddle had a family, and there's no evidence to suggest he didn't attend Hogwart's from the usual age of 11. Althought there's no canon to suggest this, I find it hard to believe that he was made a prefect/head boy (I'm fuzzy) if he hadn't been there long.
But, the same sort of arguments can be made for any time travelling replacement theory *g*

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Re: More Reincarnations? - [info]pita_pirate, 2005-02-06 04:22 pm UTC
Just curious?
(Anonymous)
2004-05-19 07:33 am UTC (link)
Okay, I am really new to this theory but I do find it in all it's bizarre glory to be extremely believable. Time Travel is a often pondered concept, so here would be my view on why things don't add up on shared DD/Ron knowledge. If a timeline is interrupted or in this case a person goes back to change events it kind of works in full circle, we don't exactly know that this timeline that JKR has given us is the first cycle in the events. And if it is when Ron goes back in time, he might not have known the things that this timeline's Ron does. If that makes sense. The first time Ron went back would be our current Dumbledore, but as his presence in the past would have to change current events, the present Ron would be privy to different information. Someone pointed out that Dumbledore mentions trying to persuade Lily and James to be secret keeper, as he would know that they died, but we don't know what future Dumbledore saw and thought it might have been the right decision. The present Ron would get to see this now and know it when he goes back. It almost seems like the Wiccan belief of reincarnation where a persons soul comes back until it perfects itself. Naturally the cycle would be repeated until the desired results are found. And of course present Ron wouldn't be aware of DD being himself, much like the marty McFly of Back to the future.

As for Dumbledore's brother, we don't know anything about DD's family as a whole. Was he adopted? Could Ron went back in time and found another family to belong to? It is farfetched but entirely possible. As are many things in JKR realm. I am more interested to find out if Dumbledore is scared of spiders as well. As for Ron's hotheaded not fitting in with Albus's levelheaded approach, well time changes all things, and more so when you know that you can't let anything slip, "do not let yourself be seen" you know.

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Re: Just curious?
[info]anamchara
2004-05-24 01:22 am UTC (link)
As for Ron's hotheaded not fitting in with Albus's levelheaded approach, well time changes all things, and more so when you know that you can't let anything slip, "do not let yourself be seen" you know.

See, that's just the thing. Time *doesn't* change all things. Basic personality traits that we're either born with, or develop in the first couple years of life do not change to such a degree. Yes, experiences help shape us, but the way we are, and especially, the way we react to things, does not tend to change during our lifetime. So while I think that Ron could mellow somewhat over the next 50 yrs, I don't see him sharing the same *basic*, ingrained personality characteristics with Dumbledore. This, in addition to Ron *suddenly* becoming the greatest and wisest wizard of the age? I love Ron *for* his flaws, and I think that I would feel cheated to learn that they were one in the same (and that Dumbledore would've known how all this turned out ahead of time). I'd feel as though it wasn't as meaningful if Dumbledore had the foreknowledge that *everything* that was going to happen.

Regardless of consequences, if Ron is Dumbledore, then I would expect, and *want*, him to try and change things, to act, to make things better for his friends...because *that* is what I believe Ron would do.

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Re: Just curious? - [info]logalog0369, 2004-07-12 05:27 am UTC
I posted this on the unplottables website
(Anonymous)
2004-05-31 08:24 pm UTC (link)
I agree with you, anamchara, and this is what I wrote in unplottables.net:

I really like the chessboard/war analogy. I think they might actually be on to something good. But I do not think that DD=Ron.
With regards to the chessboard and how the King is supposed to run it, yet Ron, the knight did: Dumbledore runs the war overall. But, just like how Dumbledore wasn't down there playing the chess game with the trio, Dumbledore, more than likely, wont be there when Harry and Voldie confront each other once and for all. I think, if they are still alive(I hope so), Hermione and Ron will be the only ones with him. Or at least on the way for Harry to confront Voldemort. Just like in SS/PS.
So, my point is: Dumbledore runs the whole picture, but when Dumbledore isn't around to help, it'll be Ron doing all the strategizing.
So, I think that all the chessboard stuff is something verrrrrrrrry interesting to think about. But I see no reason for there to be any reason in thinking that DD=Ron!

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Re: I posted this on the unplottables website
[info]anamchara
2004-06-12 06:53 pm UTC (link)
I just hope that they are two separate, yet equally important players in this story. I'd hate for all of Harry's choices to have been pre-planned or manipulated by someone who's known all along how things need to go to turn out right.

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[info]cindale
2004-06-03 07:54 pm UTC (link)
I think the DD=Ron theory is well thought out, but I don't agree with it. No one (that I can see) has mentioned the fact that in OoP (chapter 31, page 711, American first edition), Professor Marchbanks mentioned that she had tested DD when he took his NEWTs as a child. She said he did things with a wand she had never seen before. How is this possible unless Ron goes back during sixth year and starts Hogwarts as a transfer student, or maybe lies about his age? I think either scenario is very unlikely. Also, we haven't been told about any particular talents of Ron's in Transfiguration and Charms, like Professor Marchbanks thinks he has. Just my $.02.
cindale

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[info]anamchara
2004-06-12 06:49 pm UTC (link)
I think that's a good point. Unfortunately, it's still not 100 % conclusive, since NEWTS are at the end of 7th year, and I suppose "DumbleRon" could, in theory, still take them back in time (as Dumbledore).

But I mainly don't think this theory is true because it, to me, would take away choice. And as Dumbledore pointed out in CoS, our choices make us who we are, far more than our abilities. I'd hate for everything in these books to have been manipulated or foreseen or forelived by *anyone*. It lessens the importance of Harry's choices, in my opinion.

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(no subject) - [info]cindale, 2004-06-12 11:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]seiyaharris, 2004-06-20 04:08 pm UTC
Eh... - [info]rudhampaiel, 2004-06-30 07:46 pm UTC
Re: Eh... - [info]seiyaharris, 2004-07-01 04:58 pm UTC

[info]rachwrites
2004-06-07 07:07 am UTC (link)
I thought the theory was thought-provoking, but I agree with you - I'm not convinced.

One thought that occurred to me, though, was that Ron will perhaps one day attain the wisdom and gravitas to become Head of Hogwarts himself. Wouldn't that be something? Better than Head Boy, better than Quidditch Captain - better than all his older brothers.

Does he have it in him? It's hard to say, but I think Ron fans might think he does. He is certainly a brilliant strategist but he would probably need Hermione as his McGonagall to keep that temper of his in line...

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[info]anamchara
2004-06-12 07:09 pm UTC (link)
Perhaps, though whatever he becomes, I believe that it will be far more than he ever imagined for himself, and far more than many *still* imagine for him.

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about ron=dumbledore
(Anonymous)
2004-06-10 04:43 am UTC (link)
I totally agree with the theory on Ron being Dumbledore and i would like to add my views on this subject. So here goes:

When Ron went back in time, probably unwantingly, he then had to pretty much restart his life as difficult as it may have been. He would have been left without a family, friends, home or even an identity. But one thing that would have driven him to build himself back up and excel in his studies would be the fact the Voldermort hasn't infact been defeated in the 1st war (as witnessed by present Ron) and as far as Ron (who has now travelled in time) knows Harry may not defeat Voldermort in the 2nd war. Ron goes back in time before Harry defeats Voldermort, which i will explain further down. Ron therefore has to do everything in his ability to become a figure of significance in the 2nd War - and what could be a greater accomplishment than becoming the highly revered and powerful Dumbledore. Remember how he said to Harry how he has alot to live up to with both Percy and the Weasley twins achieving high marks at Hogwarts (yes even the Weasley twins). Well now he has more than lived up to expectations, even from the readers' point of view, and the reader will look at Ron with more respect and admiration as well as sympathy for the time travel thing. The Potter series will also send the message that poor kids with average looks can amount to anything if they put their heads to work. This would have a very powerful ending and would be a very sufficient plot twist to conclude the Harry Potter series. I believe Dumbledore as Ron will reveal himself for who he is at the end of the 7th book after Voldermort's defeat. It will be at this stage that Harry and Hermione will be mourning over the apparent death of Ron, probably in Dumbledore's office where Harry usually finds himself near the end of each book. Then Dumbledore will spring on them the huge character twist. Think about it, Dumbledore couldn't reveal himself for who he is earlier coz remember how in PoA, when the mechanics of time travel are explained, you cannot show yourself to your former self coz it can shatter the travel of time altogether or something along those lines. Remember how Harry and Hermione had to be careful not to be seen by their former selves in PoA? It was for this mentioned reason. So Dumbledore couldn't reveal himself to anyone only after Ron had gone back in time.

Also, with regards to Dumbledore making mistakes, well of course he did. When Dumbledore was the yound Ron he had a different headmaster and it was under his leadership that Harry endured through all the hardships and dangers as we know it. So Dumbledore wanted to ensure that Harry's life could have been made easier and perhaps even save lives, like Hagrid being sent to Azkaban - maybe in the young Ron's timeline the different headmaster didn't do anything to help Hagrid, all of which Ron had witnessed under the leadership of a different headmaster. More importantly, Ron had never witnessed the defeat of Voldermort. If indeed the chess game in the 1st book is a metaphor for the 1st war - and i believe it is - (which gives the Harry Potter series more credibility since the chess game is a mirror of things to come) then young Ron is taken out by the Queen and at this point i assume goes back in time unwantingly. It is after this that Harry as the Bishop checkmates Voldermort as the King so Ron dosen't know how it all ends up, but hopes to make a difference as Dumbledore to ensure that Voldermort ends up defeated but or course we know this happens coz of the metaphor.

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Re: about ron=dumbledore
[info]anamchara
2004-06-12 06:57 pm UTC (link)
Except that if it is all planned out like the chess game, Ron knew that Harry would be able to checkmate the king. His sacrifice allowed for it. So there wouldn't be the guessing...there would be fore*knowledge* of how it would all turn out.

The whole idea of Dumbledore/Ron reliving all this history, knowing how it has to turn out, cheapens the idea of free choice (and what Dumbledore says to Harry in CoS about choices determining who we really are). If Dumbledore/Ron knows what is likely, or needs to happen, he's had to manipulate every situation that Harry's thus far experienced...in order to make it turn out as it should. That cheapens it, to me.

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Re: about ron=dumbledore - (Anonymous), 2004-07-29 02:20 pm UTC
Physical Similarities
[info]dramastace
2004-06-19 12:07 am UTC (link)
The arguments for this theory are spectacular on both sides, but the thing that I can't get over about the Ron=DD idea is that they both look the same.

Ron has red hair; Dumbledore used to have auburn hair before it turned white. (CoS)

And in SS, their introductory physical descriptions are nearly identical.

The first time we meet Dumbledore, we read: "He was tall, thin, and very old... and his nose was very long and crooked as though it had been broken at least twice." (SS 8)

The first time we meet Ron, we read: "He was tall, thin, and gangling, with freckles, big hands and feet, and a long nose." (SS 93)

Why would Jo introduce two characters that look so similar? Every other important character has a distinct look that they share with no one else, (excepting Fred and George, obviously).

I think that the Ron=DD theory is one of the more "out there", but it has a lot of basis in canon.

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Re: Physical Similarities
[info]anamchara
2004-06-24 02:30 am UTC (link)
Maybe they're just related. After all, all the Weasleys have red hair. Bill, Ron and Arthur (at least) all have similar builds, and we know that the Weasley family is both very large and pureblooded. Therefore, there are undoubtedly relations existing in this universe that we don't know about...or haven't been formally introduced to. As it is, we didn't know that Sirius and Molly were related until OotP (along with several other familial connections that were defined for us). So who's to say that Ron and Dumbledore don't physically resemble one another because they are blood relatives?

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Re: Physical Similarities - [info]shewhosparkles, 2004-07-13 05:01 pm UTC

(Anonymous)
2004-06-22 04:16 pm UTC (link)
What if no one thinks Ron dies - let's try assuming that everyone knows he gets trapped in time. Dumbledore then explains to Harry that he is Ron.

THEN DD (Ron) gets killed saving Harry & Hermione one last time. NOW THAT would get Harry motivated to kicks some dark lord ass. (and make me cry some more). I (too) have always felt it would be DD's death that forces Harry to defeat Tom.

Some of the discussion on this board shows me that people have their time-travel theories mixed-up. There are several.

1) there are infinite time lines - if you travel in time you create a new line. The one you left stays the same.

2) you stay in the same time line but any change you make drastically changes future. (The idea that you create time machine - go back in time, kill your younger self - can't later invent time-machine. Time paradox world implodes whatever.)

3) one time line. everything you do is already done. You think you are doing something to change things - but really you were predestined to do it. Like Harry says - in POA US edition p. 412 "I knew I could do it this time, because I'd already done it... Does that make sense?"

Seems obvious to me that Jo would be going with the 3rd.

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Counter Points to "Ron is not Dumbledore"
(Anonymous)
2004-06-22 06:35 pm UTC (link)
~First of all I would like to point out that this post was written right after reading and I am not sure if I am being repetive because I only skimmed through the other comments.

~Two points that I feel especially strong about is the point that Ron and Dumbledore's personalities are too different and the point that if Ron is Dumbledore he would want to change certian events (i.e. Sirius trial, Lily and James'death, etc.). In my oppinion these would be impossible.

Sure Ron is quick to lose his temper, extremely passionate and implusive, but if he did go back in time and live the rest of his (very long) life as Dumbledore, he would probably gain some kind of control over his emotion. This doesn't mean that he is any less passionate, just that he doesn't show. And just because we don't see Dumbledore freaking out or runnning around doesn't mean he is worried and wanting to rush in this mind. He always planning and adjusting his plans. If Ron is Dumbledore, and he did go back in time, he would have to be careful about every choice that he made for the rest of his life (Rons knows how its supposed to end, but he can't know every single decision he is supposed to make to get there). Having to do that for so long would create such a sense of control.

I think that is easy to understand why RonDumbledore didn't try to change the events that occur. Ok 1)If RonDumbledore did change things they might turn out for the worst.

-Example 1-If Lily and James hadn't die and Voldemort hadn't attacked Harry, Voldemort would have continued to rise in power and kill many more. Not only that but Harry would not be as capable to fight Voldemort. Why? Becuase Voldemort would not have transfered his powers to Harry and Harry wouldn't feel the same kind of need to fight Voldemort(it wouldn't personal and that changes everything!) Fortunately (and obviously), this is not the case and while Voldemort tries to regain power, the "good-guys" can recruite and prepare the trio and others, especiall Harry, for the oncoming war.

-Example 2-Dumbledore not speaking in defense of Remus Lupin when the Potters, Sirius, etc., thought he was the one leaking information to Voldemort. If Dumbledore had enough faith in Lupin to allow him (a werewolf) to attend Hogwarts, why would he suspect someone that owes him so much (Lupin's education and the opportutiny to go to a place where he was accepted)? The reason he did not say anything is because he is Ron and knows what he has to be done. If Lupin had not been suspected, the Potters would've kept Sirius as their Secret-Keeper and Peter Pettigrew wouldn't have leaked their location and the Potters wouldn't have died, and we are back to Example 1.

-Example 3- Dumbledore not interfering in Sirius'trial. If he,had Sirius might have been found innocent (Dumbledore was highly respected and the Ministry would have taken what he said very serious). If he was, then they would know that Peter was the real murdered and they would have tracked him down, charged him, and sent him to Azkaban. Why is this bad? Because now Lupin and Sirius don't try to kill Peter in the Shreiking Shack and Harry doesn't stop them and suggest that they take him back to Hogwarts. Granted that going back would me going to the Dementors, Harry did so mercy to Peter, something that he will remember before the end. Peter owes Harry his life and he is going to have to pay Harry back.



And 2)What would be the point in messing with the events that occured? Ron is smart enough to know not mess with these events. Ron would know how certain events, such as Harry living without knowledge of the wizarding world, effect other events and characters. If RonDumbledore were to make even one change that could set off a whole new chain of events, to which RonDumbledore would not know how to react to. By not changing anything, RonDumbledore already knows what has to happen.

~Yeah so...my hands hurt! I think I'll end here.

~A firm believer and preacher of Ron=Dumbldore.

~Jasmine

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Re: Counter Points to "Ron is not Dumbledore"
(Anonymous)
2005-09-03 04:28 pm UTC (link)
in book 6, i was reading, and dunbledore did not want to take his hat off to harry (for making a certain comment) becasue he did not want to shower harry with Spiders. We all know ron is afraid of spiders, but even with 90+ years, after all the strange experiences he has had with mutant (i suppose really magically enhanced) spiders, and spiders being his boggart that it could not be so

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Re: Counter Points to "Ron is not Dumbledore" - (Anonymous), 2005-12-09 06:35 pm UTC

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