Mat Bowles ([info]matgb) wrote in [info]ukpolitics,
@ 2005-05-06 18:20:00
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On electoral reform.
I tried posting this in reply to a comment on the previous entry, but for some reason LJ formatting is messed up on it (I think the table tags may not close fully) so LJ wouldn't let me. Weird. Anyway, to business...

"when it comes to proportional representation, isn't there a severe likelyhood of people like the BNP ending up with representatives in the House? It'll be nice to have more Lib Dems in power and forcing through a three-party system, but proportional representation will allow fringe parties to start edging their way in surely... That's can't be good."

Two responses, both important. a) depends on which system you choose and b) if they're getting the votes, why not?

On a) Many of us (Electoral Reform Society, LibDems and others) favour adopting the Irish/Australian Senate system of electing representatives, widely used in universities and businesses already in the UK, Single Transferable Vote. This uses larger, multi-member consituencies, reduces cronyism by giving each pary mulitple candidates and the electors the choice, but doesn't encourage very small scale extremist parties. There are a few areas of the country that may see BNP, etc MPs returned, but not many. I personally favour this system, and, while Jenkins' proposals were OK (Knights of the Shire should never have been abandoned anyway), it's my preferred system.

On b) If people are voting for extremists, surely a democracy should allow that voice to be heard and argued with? I suspect most if not all readers to this community utterlu oppose the BNP and what it stands for. But there are people out there that that do believe them; we've seen that in the last 24 hours with the vote shares they've acheived in certain quarters.

I've never bought into the "no platform" argument. They're wrong, pure and simple. Show up their lies, defeat their arguments, ensure people know the truth. That's the democratic way. I'm not a fan of running scared from issues that are difficult, whether it be racist scum, immigration or the EU. Stand up for what you believe in, make your arguments and let the electorate decide. If you're any good as an activist, they won't side in numbers with the BNP.

Electoral reform will reshape the way this country works; I've always believed this to be a good thing, we've a tradition of reforms when situations change, and if last night doesn't show that we need to change (less than 40% and a comfortable majority?) then I don't think anything ever will. The reasons opposed to reform can mostly be countered; some are valid, I disagree with them. Fear of the BNP getting seats is not valid, it's anti-democratic and an example of political cowardice on the part of our "betters".

Make Votes Count (link in previous post).




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[info]flydanman
2005-05-06 06:05 pm UTC (link)
I don't really have an opinion about electoral reform. I'm okay with the current system of electing MPs and if a proportional system came in, I'd probably get used to it after a while.

Regarding the no platform thing though, you're spot on! Exactly right. The democratic thing is to show up their lies and debate them in to oblivion. It's fascist to ban them or give them no platform. I find it ironic that the unite against fascism organization unite against the thing they hate with precisely the thing they hate. Hypocrisy?

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[info]_jamez_
2005-05-06 08:03 pm UTC (link)
I would say that multi-member constituancies would be a vital pre-requesite of any PR system (which I strongly support).

The problem I have with fringe parties and PR is not the fact that The BNP &c could end up having parliament members - I can cope with that and accept the democratic justification - but that some poor constituancy somewhere, like Bradford or Blackburn, would end up having them as their local representative to parliament. Multi-member constituancies are therefore vital for any PR system.

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[info]vampwillow
2005-05-07 02:30 pm UTC (link)
I am totally pro-PR as against "Furthest Past The Post" (there being no post nobody can be first to 'reach' it unless you consider being on the ballot paper as the post) but also against multi-member STV.

STV in single-member constituencies works very well, and should be encouraged. An analysis I did of the 2001 election using the 'If they won over 50% they won, if they got less try and work out likely transers' prooved interesting, but ...

using STV to determine multiple 'winners' will often give a poor result (and yes, I speak from personal experience of winning and losing under multi-STV).

If you get an extremely skewed response of first preferences (ie one candidate gets 70% of them) then the minor candidate firsts - who may tend to be very fringe - will have first prefs and go through to the next round, whereas the other 'major' candidates from the same party or supporter-group as the one getting the 70% may actually have fewer - and so get reallocated faster - despite having more wide-spread support down the list whereas the fringe ones may have little further transferred support.

MM-STV can thus get rid of the candidates with the widest support base and promote the fringe candidates. First preferences become *everything* and the competition between candidates representing a 'party' view could even remove all of them under some circumstances.

SM-STV though is perfect. Even AM+ is better than MM-STV. Lists (closed or open) are really bad though.

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Weird...
[info]matgb
2005-05-07 07:43 pm UTC (link)
I poset a reply to your STV comments, but they've displayed as a separate reply to the thread. Yet my next reply to someone else has displayed properly. Maybe I hit the wrong button, oh well.

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Surplus transfers
[info]matgb
2005-05-07 03:01 pm UTC (link)
Confused; in your example, the 70% candidate's surplus votes get transfered first, surely?
http://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/votingsystems/stvrules.htm

One of the main reasons I like STV (incidentally, I never understand why people call AV STV under some circumstances and then have to call STV MM STV; is there a reason I'm not aware of?) is the competition between candidates of the same party as well. Are you old or new Labour, pro/anti-EU, for/against Iraq, etc.

Even within parties, it would give a more representative house of commons. I dislike with a passion FPTP, and List systems are next worst. After that, AM is OK, AM+ top up is better. STV (MM) is my preferred for many, many reasons.

I'd like to be able to vote Green first, then LD 2nd/3rd/4th etc. I'd accept AM+, but it still gives power to party machins instead of to voters, and I'm a democrat first.

Maybe there's a detail I'm missing?

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[info]lizw
2005-05-07 04:07 pm UTC (link)
I have mixed feelings about electoral reform. On the one hand, there is obvious unfairness in the current system, where it is theoretically possible for, say, the LibDems to have the second largest popular support, but only the third largest number of seats. On the other hand, my main concern with PR is not the risk of a fringe group having any representation at all, but the risk of them holding the balance of power. This has been a problem in Germany, where the FDP has held the balance of power most years since 1945, despite never having more than 13% of the vote. In 1982, it forced a mid-term change of government despite having campaigned earlier the same year on a platform of doing the opposite. IT had only 6% of the vote at that time. I was living in Germany when this happened, and it made a huge impression on me. Admittedly the FDP is a relatively innocuous party (nominally liberal, in practice mostly pro-business), but I would hate to see the BNP in a similar position here.

I also agree that it is extremely unfortunate to have a system that could leave, say, a Muslim asylum-seeker with a BNP member as their only constituency MP. In theory, of course, we already have such a system, but I am not yet convinced that a system that makes this more likely would be a Good Thing.

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Balance of power argument
[info]matgb
2005-05-07 07:40 pm UTC (link)
Firstly, the BNP would never hold the balance as they're currently constituted; no one would support a system similar to the Israeli one that encourages absolute fragmentation. In addition, they could only hold the balance if other parties are prepared to work with them.

can you imagine any of the mainstream parties working with the BNP as it currently is? Thought not.

The reason that the FDP (and a friend of mine is an FDP councillor in Muenster) held the balance is that the SDP and CDU refused to form governments together, meaning each had to court Genscher. No longer, in my opinion, a valid argument.

I see more in common with Blair's New Labour and the Tories than I do with the LibDems (the likely 'balance). I suspect (and predict) that, if we had a different electoral system, Left leaning LDs like me would join up with more Old Labour socially liberal types, the Greens, Ken Livingstone et al to create a Libertarian/Left party, some Libertarian/pro-Europe Tories would join up with the rest of the LDs, and we'd have 4 parties; I suspect that my party would be the smallest, but, well, I'm ok with that; you'd then have different potential alliances based on electoral maths and comon ground.

The old left/right duopoly is no more. Far too many other issues that we find to be important, and some things I even agree with Howard on.

Open up the debate, let the people vote with their conscience, and then allow a negotiated consensus to be formed around the common ground. Compromise is good when we can't agree, right?

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Re: Balance of power argument
[info]lizw
2005-05-08 09:45 pm UTC (link)
If it was the only way of forming the government, I think the current Labour leadership and the current Conservative leadership would both be prepared to go into coalition with the BNP. They'd come up with some suitable guff about how the BNP had dropped many of their most extreme demands as part of the coalition agreement, and they'd go right ahead. Whether compromise is good or not depends on what is being compromised, and why.

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[info]michaeldowds
2005-05-12 10:52 am UTC (link)
well we already have proportional representation in N. Ireland and all the so-called fringe parties have faded away into oblivion! which is actually quite sad because the political parties here are differnt and the fringe parties actually have sommit good to say as opposed to racist non-sence like in britain (rober kilroy silk *ahem*) We had people like the Womans Coalition and such! oh well!!!

but yea, PR is still better!

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