Ann Somerville ([info]logophilos) wrote in [info]thisthingwedo,
@ 2007-08-16 09:08:00
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Internalised Homophobia and slash writers (by davidpv)
[With [info]davidpv's permission, and at his request, I am posting his remarks originally made here as a fresh post for discussion]

Internalised Homophobia and slash writers by [info]davidpv
Ann asked me to move a discussion we were having over to allow others to participate. The subject was brought to the table by leebenoit about the possibility of internalized homophobia in slash writers.

First of all, I think many become defensive as soon as homophobia is tossed around. Let's be clear, we're not talking about individuals who jump gay men coming out of bars, or even politicians who seek to criminalize “sodomy.” What leebenoit mentioned was “internalized homophobia,” an entirely different animal.

Additionally, I have gotten heat by even pondering this question. “Slash writers can't have any internalized homophobia since they write about two men having sex!” Well, sorry to burst your bubble, but even gay men, out and closeted gay men, can have internalized homophobia! Why do you think gay teenagers commit suicide? Even myself, an openly gay man, with a partner of 13 years, a son, and another to be born next month, have to deal with internalized homophobia at times! If I have to struggle against it, female slash writers who were raised in a homophobic society are somehow immune?

We live in a society that has been homophobic for millennia. To expect individuals who are raised in such a culture not to be tainted by homophobia is naive. It was not until 2003 when the SCOTUS struck down laws criminalizing consensual sex between two adults of the same sex in the USA! For most of my life as a gay man I was a criminal in the eyes of the State of Texas. I still can't donate blood, nor marry my partner, nor even have any PDA's without fear of attack.

Last year, my family was in a small trading post in Utah talking with the owner and his wife. When the owner asked my partner whom our son (who I had been trying to corral for 30 minutes) belonged to, my partner said himself. He later apologized for not saying he was OUR son, because there were some NRA and other pro-gun posters on the walls. I was disappointed, but understood his action. In another world, my partner would not have hesitated to declare our relationship. Yes, he was acting out of a sense of safety, but also in response to his own internalized homophobia. How many straight parents would have even hesitated to declare that the child was theirs?

I shared this so that when I raised the question calling stories that focus on two gay-identified men in a relationship as “M/M,” rather than “gay fiction,” and posit that there may be some internalized homophobia involved in refusing to use the word gay, you would not assume that I am comparing you to the Klan.

Internalized homophobia (IH, hereafter) of slash writers: As it has been several years since I've read slash fanfiction, it will be hard for me to use specific examples found within this genre. However, as many current pro/semi-pro writers of original gay fiction (e-books especially) are former slash writers, by current exposure to their stories will be used if specific examples are required.

The trope that some writers use – straight man, but gay only for you – I think could be argued as a signal that the writer has some IH issues that are unresolved. As previously mentioned in this discussion, the possibility the character(s) is bisexual is an option, but never explored. Why does the writer refuse to have the character abandon both his heterosexuality and his accompanying heteronormative existence? Does the writer and the character believe there is something wrong with being identified as a homosexual? Is the writer just lazy and does not want to explore the character's latent homosexuality, or his early struggles with his sexuality? No matter what, if a writer continually uses this trop in their stories, one could argue that they do have issues with being comfortable with homosexuality.

Leebenoit wrote: “Reading these posts over the last couple of days has made me aware that writers of slash fanfiction may be channeling this new-old ideology (m/m sexuality and affinity as something anomalous, sick, emotionless, and criminal), I hope unwittingly, when authors use past m/f relationships as beards, demonize opposite-sex rivals, cast opposite-sex characters only as "best friends," present protagonists as "only gay for each other" and other pitfalls that have been mentioned.”

I will be the first to state that just because an author writes a story about an evil gay man, or a good gay man who ends up dead by the end of the story, such plots do not necessarily provide evidence that the author has IH issues. Even gay men have written stories that have such characters/plots. However, if the author continually uses stereotypes that have been perpetuated in their story, then I think one could take the author to task.

As previously mentioned, Ann McCaffrey's Pern novels acknowledge homosexual activity amongst Green, Brown, and to a certain extent, Blue dragon riders. Many gay men were ecstatic when they read these brief mentions of the existence of gay men in a mainstream fantasy world. However, McCaffrey claimed in an interview that science has proven that being the receptive partner in anal sex triggers a hormonal change that will make a previously heterosexual man become homosexual and effeminate. Like Yaoi writers, she has imposed heterosexual sexual conventions upon gay men – one must always be passive, while the other must always by active. In her world, while more 80% of the dragon riders are gay and/or bisexual men, they are banned from any leadership positions within the Weyr, as only 100% heterosexual women and men can assume lead the Weyr.

Given the fact that there are so many non-heterosexual dragon riders in her universe, she has yet to write one story about one gay man. Her view on homosexuality and her institutionalization of rape within the Weyr, has made many take a hard look at her writings.

Would anyone like to make any comment or offer other possible examples of IH that can be found in slash stories?

[Please add new comments on this topic to this post, rather than to the original, because they're getting buried. Thank you, David, for raising this.]



(Post a new comment)


[info]sparkindarkness
2007-08-15 11:09 pm UTC (link)
Moved comment:
Agreed to the hilt. If I have to list times when I am the most ashamed of myself then near the top of the list will always be those times when I hide that I am gay - or outright lie about it - because sometimes I am just too scared to be honest. Sometimes it is worse because I hide out of fear of embarrassment or a scene or an argument - and that feels horrendously cowardly.

I think we need to draw a distinction as to what exactly you mean by internalised homophobia? Do you mean actual self-hate or shame? As in a gay person thinking of themselves negatively because of their homosexuality? Or gays acting in a certain manner or changing their behaviour because of homophobia?

My actions are certainly dictated by homophobia - but it's not so much my homophobia so much as fear of other people's homophobia. Or acknowledgement of the homophobia that exists in society? There are many times when I take precautions or am more careful with my language than I would be if I were heterosexual. It's not because I am homophobic or am acting out of self-shame but that I am afraid of how people around me will react.

When it comes to labelling fiction in my experience I've found that m/m reduces it to sex (at least in my opinion). By avoiding using "gay fiction" they make it less about homosexuals and definitely avoid implying that the AUTHOR may be homosexual, but instead concentrate on it being sex, Does that make any sense?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]logophilos
2007-08-15 11:44 pm UTC (link)
I think we need to draw a distinction as to what exactly you mean by internalised homophobia?

I too am troubled by the example of the OP's partner being categorised as homophobia - it looked to me that it was what you say, fear of other people's homophobia, not his own. He wasn't just reacting on his own behalf, but to protect his partner and their child, in a situation where he had good cause to be worried. As a woman, I am very familiar with having to smile at men I find creepy, respond politely to sexist remarks and so on, to avoid provoking an aggressive response - does that make me an anti-feminist? No, it makes me a short unfit woman who lives in a misogynistic, violent society where a lot of men think they have a god given right to beat the snot out of women, homosexuals and children.

That's not to negate the observation that homophobia is present in slash. I would however, strongly dispute the classification of Anne McCaffrey as a slasher just because she (however accidentally) created gay characters. She's about as far from slash writing as it's possible to get *and* still have gay people in your stories.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]sparkindarkness, 2007-08-16 12:08 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]logophilos, 2007-08-16 12:29 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sparkindarkness, 2007-08-16 12:36 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]teenybuffalo, 2007-08-16 04:01 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]undomielregina, 2007-08-18 01:38 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sparkindarkness, 2007-08-18 11:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dinpik, 2007-08-18 08:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sparkindarkness, 2007-08-18 11:42 pm UTC

[info]davidpv
2007-08-16 02:07 am UTC (link)
Is not shame just another word for self hatred? I think IH has much to do with the two.

I've marched in Pride parades, protested outside of a Republican state convention, infiltrated and passed out leaflets at that convention, marched on our state capital, and participated in a variety of gay political events over the years. I do not live in the closet. It is impossible to do so when you and your partner are white and you have a 5-year old who is darker than you calling you Daddy and Papa in public. Yes, I am aware of my surroundings and self-censor my actions out of a concern for safety. However, there are have been times that provided an opportunity for me to come out to a stranger, and yet I just didn't have the energy to want to do so. If I didn't have to battle IH in myself, I would not care what others think, nor how I acted. Thankfully, all of the really personal destructiveness that IH can cause a gay person was exorcised many years ago.

I really can't buy the argument that writers of "M/M fiction" refuse to classify their work as "gay fiction," simply because they fear being labeled homosexual. Granted, if you are a male writer and you include gay male characters in your works, many might make that assumption. But, when the vast majority of slash writers are women, I don't think that is the case.

I would agree that much of the original slash fiction (published and on-line) tend to focus on the sex scenes, rather than on a good and interesting plot. In fact, most of the M/M Erotica that I've read by female writers tend to be nothing more than what I would refer to as one-handed porn. When the story has a sex scene in every chapter, than that's porn to me. Not that there is anything wrong with porn! :)

However, it does make me wonder what "gay fiction," slash writers are referring to when they say that gay fiction is more about physical sex, while slash is about emotions. Most of the serious gay fiction in print today probably has less sex scenes in total than one M/M erotic novel!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]thelana, 2007-08-18 03:18 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sparkindarkness, 2007-08-19 12:25 am UTC

[info]mdbl
2007-08-16 02:10 am UTC (link)
I think we need to draw a distinction as to what exactly you mean by internalized homophobia? Do you mean actual self-hate or shame? As in a gay person thinking of themselves negatively because of their homosexuality?

I would vote yes to this, for when authors choose to portray their gay/bi characters as troubled and conflicted gay/bi people. Note that I say "gay/bi people" here, not just "people". An alternative lifestyle and sexuality doesn't make a person's lifestyle or behavior alternative to how people in general exist. When an author chooses to dramaticize a character's sexuality to the extent of alienating the natural role of sexuality, they are depicting an ignorance of actual homosexuality and crossing into internalized homophobia.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]sparkindarkness, 2007-08-19 12:28 am UTC
Cont: (sorry, deleted wrong comment)
[info]sparkindarkness
2007-08-15 11:12 pm UTC (link)
I think we can add on to the list of IH the way that many "bottom" gay men are not only portrayed as passive but also often portrayed as extremely feminine, or emotional or childlike. It's like, the dominant character, the strong one, the "manly" one has to be "less gay" by being the top. The bottom cannot be manly or aggressive or touch or butch or dominant - he is nearly always the lesser partner, the follower, the weaker one. It's like if someone is gay, especially so gay as to be the receiver of anal sex (which is considered more gay than being a top for some reason) then they have to be less male. They will be the one who is given flowers or presents, who is told what to do, who is younger, who, if there are any S/M scenes, will be on the receiving end etc.

Ann McCaffrey (even without her ignorant scientific observations) I have spoken about recently in my journal - but I think she is a classic example of an author with IH. She adopts huge stereotypes - green dragons (female) are passive/effeminate gays while blue dragons (male) are ridden by more dominant top gay men. In later books she created an option where brown and blue riders could have heterosexual sex instead of having sex with the green dragonrider. She avoids the green and blues as much as possible and when they are referenced they are labelled repeatedly by other characters as emotionally unstable, with unstable relationships, foolhardy, careless, extravagant, having relationships that require patience - the one lengthy portrayal of blue/green riders I can think of has them being highly emotional, more than a little irrational, careless and rather childish

She made Lytol's dragon, a major character, a Green in the first book but changed it to brown in later novels - because here she had a major character who, by her rules, would have to be gay and PASSIVE gay.


Another potential source of IH is Laurell K Hamilton's Anita Blake books, though she has got better, it is amazing how many of her bad guys are gay/bisexual. Despite having a plethora of gay characters, there are only 2 who are in dominant or alpha positions - one is bisexual (and an emotional wreck - but then just about everyone is) and the other is a lesbian (who got there by being a ruthless fighter in a role that women hardly ever succeed in). And every single male gay/bisexual character seems to be a heavy duty S/M fan.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Cont: (sorry, deleted wrong comment)
[info]logophilos
2007-08-15 11:49 pm UTC (link)
I think we can add on to the list of IH the way that many "bottom" gay men are not only portrayed as passive but also often portrayed as extremely feminine, or emotional or childlike.

How much of this comes from IH and how much of it comes from gay community stereotypes themselves? The passive, femmy bottom is a stereotype that you get in subcultures like the leather community. Sure, it's overlaid with feminine projection and not a little ignorance, but it's not *just* a figment of female imagination either.

In slash, a lot of men *are* written as masculine and unstereotypically gay, but they are more idealised, whether top or bottom, and very often much more emotionally open because women like that and don't get it much in reality. However, there are subgenres in slash like yaoi where reality just isn't an issue - the last thing the writer is interested in is portraying real people, or real gay men. To that extent, it's like watching people playing with dolls - it tells you much more about the person playing than the inner life of the dolls.

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Re: Cont: (sorry, deleted wrong comment) - [info]sparkindarkness, 2007-08-16 12:15 am UTC
Re: Cont: (sorry, deleted wrong comment) - [info]logophilos, 2007-08-16 12:33 am UTC
Re: Cont: (sorry, deleted wrong comment) - [info]sparkindarkness, 2007-08-16 12:35 am UTC
Re: Cont: (sorry, deleted wrong comment)
[info]davidpv
2007-08-16 02:35 am UTC (link)
I personally think that an author who consistently follows the Yaoi convention of characterizing gay men in her stories could be suffering from IH. Why? Because the whole Yaoi convention is basically the masculine and heterosexual view of sexual relations. Real men are never penetrated and only women and gay men allow their bodies to be passively used for the enjoyment of real men. This might be the idealized heterosexual notion of sexual relations, which is translated in yaoi stories, but it is not the norm for most gay male relationships.

Yes, there are effeminate men who prefer to bottom, but there are as many butch men who do as well. Conversely, there are effeminate men who prefer to top. There are also a number of gay men who have never engaged in anal sex and have no desire to do so, as well as many gay men who are versatile. Why do female writers fixate on anal sex and then lock their characters in proscribed sexual roles that they never deviate from during the story? Why is there not more variety and surprises in the characterizations within slash stories?

In Ancient Rome, homosexual acts were only acceptable as long as a citizen was not the passive one in the relationship. Which is why Julius Caesar became the butt of jokes, when it became known that he slept with the king of Bithynia to obtain a fleet of ships. The jokes were not that he had sex with a man, but that he allowed another man to penetrate him. For Romans, for a man to be penetrated was to equate himself with a woman, which had no value at all in society.

So, it seems strange when female writers feminize men who they make take the passive position (almost exclusively, forget about versatility!) in their stories. Not only does this indicate possible IH, but also misogynistic tendencies as well. Slash writers are hailed at transgressing sexual lines in their stories, but the upholding of the misogynistic view of sexual relations has yet to be transgressed by many slash writers.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Cont: (sorry, deleted wrong comment) - [info]teenybuffalo, 2007-08-16 03:58 am UTC
Re: Cont: (sorry, deleted wrong comment) - [info]carmarthen, 2007-08-16 06:24 am UTC
Re: Cont: (sorry, deleted wrong comment) - [info]redsnake05, 2007-08-18 04:11 am UTC
Re: Cont: (sorry, deleted wrong comment) - [info]sparkindarkness, 2007-08-16 11:35 am UTC
Re: Cont: (sorry, deleted wrong comment)
[info]carmarthen
2007-08-16 06:21 am UTC (link)
Wait, there are characters in LKH's books who AREN'T into heavyduty (and unrealistic) S&M? I mean, I think LKH has Weird Issues about queer people, but this is also a series in which the HEROINE has had sex with WEREANIMALS while they're in fanged-n-furry mode.

...I wrote the books off a while back.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Cont: (sorry, deleted wrong comment) - [info]sparkindarkness, 2007-08-16 11:24 am UTC

[info]kyuuketsukirui
2007-08-15 11:57 pm UTC (link)
I agree with quite a lot of this, though I'm not sure whether M/M is necessarily a sign of internalised homophobia. A lot of people, both in and out of fandom, read "gay fiction" to mean stories that specifically deal with issues. However, many writers, both gay and straight, men and women, don't want to write about gay issues all the time. They just want to write about gay characters doing normal things, whether that be fighting evil or falling in love or whatever. They may write in a fantasy world where homophobia is not an issue, etc. M/M is seen more as just a description of the characters' sexuality than of what type of story it is.

I do think there is a lot of internalised homophobia amongst slash writers. Hell, there are slash writers who disapprove of GLBT people in real life, despite happily writing about same-sex relationships in their stories.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]logophilos
2007-08-16 12:03 am UTC (link)
there are slash writers who disapprove of GLBT people in real life, despite happily writing about same-sex relationships in their stories

You know, every time I come across that, I just can't understand how their minds work at *all*. I write characters who are religious, and sympathetic, despite having no sympathy with religious people in real life, but to write those characters I at least have to have a basic understanding of what motivates them. To be a homophobe is to essentially pretend GLBT people are even human.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]therck, 2007-08-16 12:24 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]logophilos, 2007-08-16 12:32 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]therck, 2007-08-16 01:01 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]davidpv, 2007-08-16 02:48 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kyuuketsukirui, 2007-08-16 02:54 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]carmarthen, 2007-08-16 06:30 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sparkindarkness, 2007-08-16 11:19 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]elspethdixon, 2007-08-16 10:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]logophilos, 2007-08-16 10:18 pm UTC
here from metafandom - [info]vulgarweed, 2007-08-18 01:45 am UTC

[info]dontkickmycane
2007-08-16 01:28 am UTC (link)
This is a real thought provoking topic. It wedges itself firmly in between my split personality. On one hand, I'm a woman writing slash and trying not to stereotype my characters (and as often as not, probably failing in that attempt). On the other, I'm a bisexual person crouched behind the safe facade of a hetero lifestyle. Don't get me wrong. I'm happily married to a great guy. But it's so much easier to just be that 'normal' family that some days, I can almost forget the rest of the world has no idea how much those of us who don't fit into the mold just don't say because it's safer/easier/less stressful to keep our mouths shut.

So I'd have to say, yes, censoring what you say to avoid confrontation changes you. Not in a good way. It affects how you look at people you thought you knew, it affects how you walk through the world, and it definitely affects how you (or at least, how I) write.

However, many writers, both gay and straight, men and women, don't want to write about gay issues all the time. They just want to write about gay characters doing normal things, whether that be fighting evil or falling in love or whatever. They may write in a fantasy world where homophobia is not an issue

I have to agree with this. However, writing a contemporary story about gay characters cannot be done in a void. Either you tackle the issues, or you ignore them. If you acknowledge them, you run the risk of your story becoming about the issues and not about the characters. If you ignore them, are you not writing in a fantasy world however much it might resemble the real world on the surface? So if you bring up the issues, you are writing with IH issues. If you ignore the issues, you ignore what it is to be human in the world as it it is today. Kind of a rock and a hard place. The fact of the matter is, the issues exist. Only by tackling them and bringing them into the light for the false stereotypes they are, by writing about the human condition as a whole (either in the world as we know it or a fantasy realm) rather than about the condition of being gay in a straight world, can we hope to bring some sort of understanding. In the end, people are people and the struggle to be understood is at the root of what we do as writers, is it not?

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[info]arby_m
2007-08-30 11:46 pm UTC (link)
I'm a bisexual person crouched behind the safe facade of a hetero lifestyle

Me too. I often think that the fact that I ended up with a guy instead of a girl owes a lot less to how much I am attracted to men vs. women and more to how I can't/don't want to come out as bi to family, co-workers etc. Is that IH or just cowardice on my part - or both? (Well, that and I happened to fall in love with this particular guy, and never met/got together with a woman I felt as strongly about. I wonder, had I fallen for a woman, would it have made the issue important enough to me to make me come out. I'd like to think so.)

A coworker of mine told me last week that she didn't believe in bisexuality. I didn't say, "Just because you can't imagine it doesn't mean it doesn't exist" or call her out as a homophobe in any way, and I kind of hate myself for that.

I will say that I do think I manage to mostly avoid the trope of "I'm not really gay, just in love with you!" in my fic - I secretly tend to assume everyone is some amount of bi (i.e., Kinsey scale) unless proven otherwise, and make my characters closeted bi instead. (Gee, art imitating life much?)

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]leebenoit
2007-08-16 02:18 am UTC (link)
In the wee hours of this morning, I finished reading Max Pierce's THE MASTER OF SEACLIFF, which struck me as an amalgam of GAYWICK, REBECCA, and WUTHERING HEIGHTS (gay, lesbian, and het gothic romances, respectively). While it included several of the tropes David mentions in his post (including past female lovers as beards, self-hating gay characters, and one or two others I can't mention without spoiling the story - and it IS worth a read), I was not even remotely inclined to "read" internalized homophobia into it. Reading David's new post today, I pushed myself to interrogate why that was. Was I more forgiving of a gay male author using these tropes? Was the way the author handled them more sensitive or critical? No, I finally concluded, there was just an ineffable gay sensibility to the writing, a certain wayworn quality to the presentation that said, "Here it is again, and even if it's still not time to laugh at it, let's smile wanly at each other and talk about it again over breakfast." (This is probably the place to say, in no uncertain terms, that a person of any sexuality might write from an authentic gay sensibility.)

Some slash fiction I've read (and again I must say I know next to nothing about slash fanfiction, whence the whole genre springs) actually goes too far in what I unkindly think of as a "PFLAG direction" (and truly, I have respect for that organization). What I mean is that some writers slot in a bashing, a homophobic comment by a secondary character, or blatant discrimination as a prop for lots of Pollyannaish scenery-chewing about how awful it is that the poor (but hot, hot, hot) gay characters are so badly treated. Then we get to watch as the nasty bigots get their comeuppance. Handled well, this plot device gives a satisfying revenge high, but more often seems naive from the perspective of an out, queer person.

I feel like I'm opening another kettle of fish, so feel free to ignore these comments. I'd just like to say two more quick things.

First, my annoyance about internalized homophobia in mass media is related to my abiding anger over aggressive heteronormativity in same, which is, in turn, related to the baffling persistence of gender essentialist idiocy (Bratz, anyone?). So if I go too far, I hope I may be forgiven; it's all just so depressing sometimes (spoken as the single bi parent of two boys).

Second, I think the print canon in fantasy and SF, which gives slash writers so much in the way of source material, inspiration, and archetypes, is rife with the kind of internalized homphobia we've been talking about here. At its worst, we get something like Mercedes Lackey's LAST HERALD MAGE trilogy (brilliantly sent up by Trewin Greenaway on his Cronnex site: http://www.cronnex.com/thecronnexslushp.html), but at its best we get delicately nuanced stuff that should be more widely read (Ellen Kushner comes to mind, as do Jim Grimsley, Ricardo Pinto, Samuel Delany, and others). I guess what I'm saying is that the stuff that inspires so many slash writers is flawed by the very problems we're discussing, and so it behooves us newer writers to dig deeper into our genres as one way to avoid unwittingly perpetuating just those types of ideologies we'd prefer to eliminate.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]davidpv
2007-08-16 03:10 am UTC (link)
I read The Master of Seacliff and have no idea if Max Pierce is male or female, gay or straight. I think it patterns itself after the gothic romance novels you mentioned. As for the tropes, yes it does have them, but where I think the author is more successful is that there is a justification in the story for those tropes. Additionally, from what I can recall, the plot and characters were interesting. If Max Pierce's next three novels use the same tropes, one could make the argument for IH, as well as just laziness.

I have read fiction online that is much too "preachy" for my tastes. The characters, especially the villains, are cardboard stereotypes. Personally, those stories don't do anything for me. However, there might be some less educated individuals who read them and learn ideas they've never heard of before. Just like it takes a lot for me to be enticed to read another "coming out" story, and REALLY a lot to read an AIDS-related story, such stories resonate with people are various times in their life. The Last Herald Mage trilogy, while it has problems, for a closeted teenage boy who has never read a story with a gay heroic protagonist, such a story could have an impact in their life. Twenty years later, the same person re-reading the story will probably wonder why he thought it was so great! :)

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(no subject) - [info]leebenoit, 2007-08-16 04:56 pm UTC

[info]asitha
2007-08-16 02:26 am UTC (link)
I agree with many things that have been said here, I wholly believe that gay fiction is steeped with IH.

I find that my problem with writing is that I create gay characters who are completely 'normal'. I do this because I try to show that there is no difference between gay people and straight people, but a lot of the time I feel as if (even though all the gay males that I have known are just like the straight males I know) that stereotypes do come from *somewhere* and there are gay men out there who are effeminate, and I'm in essence putting on blinders to that part of the community.

Also I tend to write the gay characters as socially accepted for the same reason, I want to show that a gay person can be just as accepted as a straight person, and I focus more on emotional/familial problems. Again, I sometimes feel as if I'm ignoring the issue. Is that IH, or is it just focusing on different issues?

I'm sorry, I don't even know if any of that made sense, but I think that this is a very interesting topic, and wanted to add my two cents.

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[info]leebenoit
2007-08-16 02:41 am UTC (link)
I hope all fans of good fiction would applaud your writing gay characters as "normal." Just folks with lives, stories to tell, jobs, families, landlords, goldfish (and, I almost hesitate to mention, lava lamps). :)

I would quibble with the idea that "there is no difference between gay people and straight people." Like members of racial-ethnic monorities, people with disabilities, the poor, even women, gays have a different experience of history from straights, just like American Indians have a different experience from European American, or men from women. (David's and Sparkindarkness's entries above demonstrate this admirably, so I won't add my own anecdotes.) Our lives are different, because we are different, and vice versa (individual experience is only meaningful within its historical and cultural context). History and every social institution, from schools to the workplace to the medical establishment, have made us so. Still human, still normal (whatever that means to individual writers), but not the same.

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(no subject) - [info]asitha, 2007-08-16 03:25 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]leebenoit, 2007-08-16 05:00 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sparkindarkness, 2007-08-16 12:09 pm UTC

[info]darkrhiannon
2007-08-16 02:49 am UTC (link)
I don't know whether I would call the issue at play in many of the stories I've read internalized homophobia, so much as complete and utter ignorance of actual gay relationships. Many female writers who create m/m sex scenes seem to have no freaking idea of what they're actually doing. There's the:
a)prostate as a male clitoris that immediately makes him orgasm;
b)magically self-stretching and lubricating asshole;
c)sex isn't "real" sex unless it's penetrative;
d)male hymen;
e)super reinflating teenaged penis of 1,000 orgasms;
f)no switching...ever
g)scarily thin, hairless, and feminized leading character waiting to be rescued (straight out of a gothic novel);
h)super-duper deepthroating, come-without-touching, but virginal lover; and of course
i)the totally reluctant, virginal rape victim who despite deep trauma, deprivation, torture, and worse, still rises to the occasion multiple times because of the dastardly villian's sexual prowess.

So many of the tropes are just straight out of a Barbara Cartland story that I can't help but wonder if we haven't simply switched from the secretly perfect teenaged *female* virgin who miraculously converts the twice-her-age roue into an upstanding husband/father to the secretly perfect teenaged *male* virgin who miraculously converts the twice-his-age spy and deatheater into an upstanding husband/father (complete with the requisite butt-babies-ewww). Denying the masculinity of one's characters so far as to force pregnancy upon them (along with the requisite hormonal imbalances and behaviors) seems the height of such displacement.

It's pretty clear from many of the stories of this type that the authors have never had anal sex themselves, have never talked about it with anyone who has, and have no clue about the actual range and possibilities of a true gay relationship in or out of the bedroom. Homophobia or just ignorance? Who can say?

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[info]sparkindarkness
2007-08-16 12:19 pm UTC (link)
Ah, isn't that true of so many sex scenes? In a way it is like watching sex scenes written by virgins (even if just virgins to gay sex) and the mechanics just don't work that well

I've said before that many of the characters just seem to be women with a penis stuck on them. I think you raise a valid point on whether it is actual IH or just ignorance - some of these, especially young writers who may not have many gay people around them, simnply don't realise the differences or just transplant what they know and patch it on top

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]kindkit, 2007-08-18 01:05 am UTC
Surfing in from friends f-list - [info]boji, 2007-08-20 01:39 am UTC
Re: Surfing in from friends f-list - [info]chvickers, 2007-08-21 07:18 pm UTC
Re: Surfing in from friends f-list - [info]carmarthen, 2007-08-30 01:10 am UTC

[info]carmarthen
2007-08-16 06:12 am UTC (link)
(1) McCaffrey is batshit insane. Is there any doubt?

(2) While there are certainly many examples of internalized homophobia in slash fandom--and I'm not fond of the cliches mentioned--I don't think use of the label m/m is one of them. As I've said before it includes fictional about male/male sexual and/or romantic relationships in cultures where the label of "gay" (with its modern identity connotations) is frankly inappropriate--more than any other label I can think of besides "queer," gay connotes an identity.

And I personally don't want to label fictional about bisexual characters as "gay" or "lesbian" or "straight," since that contributes to bisexual invisibility. Labelling a story "bi fiction" doesn't tell readers anything about the gender configuration of the pairing, which IS something many readers filter for. I very rarely write about exclusively monosexual characters. And I very rarely write in a modern setting where labels like "gay" and "queer" are terms the characters would use.

And sometimes We're Not Gay We Just Love Each Other is the author's comment on the internalized homophobia of the characters. I have done this deliberately myself a few times, when the cultural background of the character made it unlikely for him to be comfortable with his sexuality or with identifying with "those people." Writing about characters like that doesn't mean we think internalized homophobia is awesome. But pretending it never happens and only writing about happy, proud, out queer folk is...utopian, but kind of narrow and limiting to authors who want to explore that kind of issue.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]carmarthen
2007-08-16 06:34 am UTC (link)
And for the record, I have written exactly 2 stories with anything resembling explicit sex: one m/f (canonically, the woman is straight and the man is bisexual) and one f/f (canonically, one woman has been seen having sex with both men and women, but it's ambiguous whether the women are just business; the other definitely likes men and subtextually is probably bisexual).

So I don't come at this from any sort of "reducing things to sex" angle (!). And I come from a corner of fandom full of people who (a) don't exclusively write m/m fiction and (b) don't exclusively write smut. So all these descriptions of "slashers" as writing only about "gay men" who aren't really gay men and only writing plotless smut is...not at all true to my experience in fandom, and I've read in a LOT of fandoms.

And I'm quite happy to be labelled as queer, since I am.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Oblique stroke, anyone? - [info]leebenoit, 2007-08-16 05:12 pm UTC
Re: Oblique stroke, anyone? - [info]chvickers, 2007-08-21 07:39 pm UTC
Re: Oblique stroke, anyone? - [info]carmarthen, 2007-08-30 01:12 am UTC

[info]countess_baltar
2007-08-16 06:21 am UTC (link)
Internalised Homophobia and slash writers by davidpv

Last year, my family was in a small trading post in Utah talking with the owner and his wife. When the owner asked my partner whom our son (who I had been trying to corral for 30 minutes) belonged to, my partner said himself. He later apologized for not saying he was OUR son, because there were some NRA and other pro-gun posters on the walls. I was disappointed, but understood his action. In another world, my partner would not have hesitated to declare our relationship. Yes, he was acting out of a sense of safety, but also in response to his own internalized homophobia. How many straight parents would have even hesitated to declare that the child was theirs?


This is not necessarily internalized homophobia. In Utah this is just common sense and not wanting to deal with the intolerance of the majority there. People who are not LDS (Mormon) who live in Utah (and Idaho) do not advertise the fact especially in smaller towns. Almost everyone who is not LDS has been discriminated against in one way or another. There's no point in making a statement for tolerance. If they do they will be run out of town.

Not by being chased by a screaming mob or anything, but they will be shunned, slandered, deprived of employment, etc, until forced to leave.

(Reply to this)


[info]kindkit
2007-08-18 01:24 am UTC (link)
To me, the term "gay fiction" implies original fiction, not fanfiction. That's why I don't use the term for my own writings. And additionally, in slash fanfic there's the problem that most male characters, in most fandoms, have been shown canonically involved with or interested in women. Now, there are fanfics where those past male/female relationships are shown to be mistakes by a man in denial about his sexuality (I've written stories like this myself), but one can't take that route every time. Plus, stories that do so tend to get bashed, sometimes deservedly and sometimes not, as misogynistic. Usually, therefore, it's problematic to identify characters in boyslash stories as "gay." For myself, I've pretty much stopped explaining--I just let the reader assume bisexuality unless I have some compelling reason to explore a character's self-identification in more detail.

Your general argument, I agree with--there's internalised homophobia in boyslash. But I also think there's a danger of overgeneralizing. Not every boyslash story uses the "we're not gay, we just love each other" trope (in fact, I'd say that trope is dying out). Not every boyslash story turns one of the men into a passive, weepy Stepford Wife, either, or otherwise imposes out-of-date heteronormative patterns onto a gay relationship. And not every boyslash story either ignores gay issues or deals with them shallowly and stupidly. There's plenty of well-written, well-characterized, thoughtful boyslash out there.

Oh, as for internalised homophobia in profic, I'd point to Robin Hobb. Her novels tend to set up relationships between men that are highly romantic and bursting with erotic tension. And then Hobb runs away from the erotic possibilities as fast as she possibly can.

(Reply to this)


[info]executrix
2007-08-18 02:34 am UTC (link)
Here via metafandom.

I think that internalized homophobia and misogyny are often present in fanfic because it's understandable that fanwriters--considering the atmosphere in which we grew up--sometimes overvalue a particular kind of masculinity. One of the worst charges a critic can make is that a fanwriter feminizes characters. 'Cos that would be a fate worse than death, yeah?

And I've found that there's a real distinction between writers who intend their work to be realistic and those who don't. If someone wants to write about idealized characters who are not intended to accurately reflect RL concerns and issues, I guess it's not fair to say that the depiction isn't an accurate one.

I got into slashwriting (media fandom, not original slash) precisely because I didn't think that there were enough books, movies, TV shows, etc. about LGBT stories. But what I learned was that that's not every slashwriter's objective.

(Reply to this)


[info]thelana
2007-08-18 02:48 am UTC (link)
It's not a defense, but I do wonder if not at least some self-hate in fanfiction isn't due to authors being fond of angst. Of course you could write a happy, I'm okay with myself and my partner is too relationships. But there are also a lot of people who look at that story and go "Where's the fun in that? It's much more drama if there's sexual confusion or self hate or your partner not being gay." (and yes, that very probably is that way because writers have never experienced this situation in this particular way; to somebody who has lived through it it is personal. To somebody on the outside it is just a plot device)

That said, I've always been one of those traitors who always thought that slash fiction and gayfiction are very different things. Slash is more like porn and romance from women for women. And if gay men can like it is's a lucky coincidence, but it's not mandatory.

It's roughly as supportive or non-supportive as straight men saying they support strong women by drooling over Lara Croft.

Of course, none of that is an excuse ot be horribly unrealistic in your fiction (self lubricating anus, ahoi!). But I heard that some of these things (only anal sex is real sex, never switching) used to be much worse in the earlier days of fandom and have gotten slightly better.

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[info]sparkindarkness
2007-08-19 12:54 am UTC (link)
I think that's a valid point. We see gay characters being tortured and leading such tragic tragic lives - but it's likely less a comment on the inevitabl;e doomed fate of homsoexuals *eye roll* so much as it is that some slash writers couldn't write an account of going down to the shops for a bottle of milk without 3 trauma causing incidents on the way and 2 deep, tragic, wounding introspections while the change is being counted.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]arby_m, 2007-08-31 01:09 am UTC

[info]starwatcher307
2007-08-18 03:58 am UTC (link)
.
I don't doubt that some slash writers may be functioning under IH. But I think that most of the deficiencies davidpv sees in slash stories are very likely a result of the writers' (a) ignorance and (b) desire to tell a schmoopy / romantic / angsty / starry-eyed / whatever story instead of "dealing" with realistic issues.

Others have made my intended points as well or better than I can, so I'll just summarize my thoughts. I see a learning curve in fandom. Even today, many people don't know people who are openly gay, bi, or lesbian -- and certainly not well enough to ask specific questions about how they conduct their sexuality. (Hell, I don't ask my best friend questions like that; no way could I ask some casual acquaintance!) Fortunately, the internet is a great educational tool, so a lot of the "we're not gay we just love each other" and "the bottom is always smaller / weaker / feminine" and similar themes are becoming less common. (Depending on which fandoms you read -- some are far less realistic than others.)

Speaking as a straight woman, it's easier to have an understanding of gay sexuality, on an intuitive basis, than of bi sexuality. It's like, "Okay, it makes sense that if you don't like women, you like men, but how can it be both?" Writers in this case may feel like the early slash writers 30 years ago did; not enough information to write realistically, so they write what they're comfortable with. This will change as information spreads, and it'll probably happen faster than it did with the first efforts at slash. But still, learning and change take time.

I can't recall the exact quote, but there's something along the lines of, "Don't look for an agenda when sheer stupidity will explain the results."

It seems to me that davidpv expects that "good" slash fiction should deal with some of the "issues" of living gay or bi in this culture. But most fanfic writers are interested only in telling a good story about their favorite characters; it's an enjoyable hobby, not a school assignment that has to disseminate correct information. In the interests of telling a good story, many writers cheerfully adjust the world to suit them -- and common issues of homosexuality may or may not be part of the story.

This feature of giving only passing recognition to the "real world" in the interests of telling a good story is not limited to slash fiction. Our favorite characters frequently get physically traumatized in the most horrendous ways in gen stories, things that should put them on disability for life -- but they're up and rarin' to go after just a few weeks in rehab at most. In my stories, you'd hardly recognize that people need to work for a living. It's all part of the same pattern; the writers are not dismissing homosexuality specifically, but the real world in general. *g*

In short, I think davidpv is looking for realistic treatment in a genre that is not designed to give it, and won't, simply because 'realistic treatment' wouldn't be a good story, and would be likely to slow or even sidetrack the story completely. That's not to say that slash authors shouldn't try to improve their depiction of homosexuality or bisexuality wherever possible. But, daggone it, the story comes first, not public service announcements.
.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]sparkindarkness
2007-08-19 01:00 am UTC (link)
I think we have to draw a line between IH and pure ignorance. That is, pure excusable ignorance (I think that ignorance reaches a level where it is willful and is homophobic all on its own)

I think this ignorance stems from SOCIETAL homophobia, and, of course, heteronormality which, I suppose, can be interpretted as IH (they have internalised they EFFECTS of societal homophobia) but really only in the same way as a gay man being quiet about their sexuality in a threatening or worrying situation. It's how society's prejudices have shaped people's knowledge and understanding


When it comes down to it, a lot of slash fiction is actually the author's fantasies written down - there's a limit to how far they're going to go into realism - and, to be fair, how much research a non-professional (or a professional in some sad cases) author is going to go through for the sake of "realism."

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]carmarthen, 2007-08-30 01:19 am UTC

[info]missapocalyptic
2007-08-18 11:41 am UTC (link)
This is an interesting post that made me think a lot...

First, I think there is a difference between internalised homophobia and reacting to prejudices (or at least, there should be). I'll take the example you gave above, with your partner disguising the fact that you are both the parents of your son. I think, from this action alone one cannot draw the conlusion of internalised homophobia; important is, what he felt when he said it. If he feeled shame in that moment, shame for being gay and raising a child with his male partner, then I'd call it internalised homophobia. But you said: "In another world, my partner would not have hesitated to declare our relationship." So, he does not feel guilty about his lifestyle/sexual orientation - he was just reacting to the prejudices he supposed the shop owners might have. Whether this was the right thing to do, or whether one should be out and proud no matter what the situation, is another question.

If one is a democrat/liberal in a dictatorship, and decides to hide that fact, that does not mean he shares the prejudices the totalitarian regime spreads about people like him. It just means he wants to live. If someone does not starts arguing with his boss about his political/religious opinions, it does not mean he internally agrees with the beliefs of his boss. It just means he wants to spare himself the pointless trouble. Well, I guess you see what I'm getting at.

That said, internal homophobia among homosexuals certainly does exist, just like feminists can be internal misogynists (I think I'm guilty of that...). The suicidal teenagers are a good example. And of course it exists among slash writers.

If someone decides to write about to men having sex because of OMG hot!!! it doesn't mean s/he has to approve of/know anything about/support gays/gay cultures/gay rights (however, those people exist among slashers, too).

However, I think it is difficult to say "they are not gay, they just love each other" means the author is an internal homophic. It can mean that, and one should definitely scan the story for further hints of IH, but it doesn't necessarily mean that. For example, we all struggle with the fact that the characters we write about are presented as heterosexual in canon. There are many ways to deal with that - being in denial, being bisexual - and "They're not gay..." can be just one of these ways. (Side note: My boyfriend is a self-defined heterosexual. However, he is willing to make an exception for Edward Norton. And only Edward Norton) Of course, if the author tries to make a point of that reeeeeeeally hard it reeks of IH...

But I think there is another reason why "They're not gay..." is so popular: It is the ultimate form of true love for a person. He is a heterosexual, but his affection for this man is so strong, that not even that matters. he will never look at another man or woman again, because their love is so deep... *sighs* Uhm, but yes, a warning signal it is, definitely. But not more than that.

On that Ann McCaffrey story: Booo!



(Reply to this)

pls give some slash writers the benefit of the doubt
[info]girluknow
2007-08-23 02:33 pm UTC (link)
In my own experience, when I first starting writing fan fiction in the 80's (with Quantum Leap), I was blithely oblivious to the fact that there was such a thing as slash fiction. Being (fairly) young and ignorant and unexposed to homosexuality (other than a vague awareness it existed), I was shocked/intrigued to read slash for the first time. I have always been a social hermit, so I don't know very many people, gay or straight, so really slash fiction was my first mental and emotional picture of homosexuality.

I'd written a bunch of fan fiction and I took that world, (RGB - Real Ghostbusters) and wrote slash fiction between two of the guys. When I posted it on my webpage, I separated the "gen" and "slash" the way I'd seen other fan fiction posters do. The more I got into it, the more it felt wrong to do it that way. I don't mean to use ignorance as an excuse, but ignorance was the reason, not homophobia. It was simply a world and a way of living I didn't know anything about (I'm a slow thinker and a slow learner (g)), but once I began to learn more of it, I understood a little better of what it means to be gay in this world and the crap you've got to deal with, etc.

As I became more aware, I changed my website, moving *all* my sexually-explicit (well, explicit for me) fan fiction, gay or straight, into an "adult" section, while keeping all the gen fic, gay or straight, in its own section. It's a small difference, granted, but it felt important to me to do it that way. I try not to even use the word "slash" any more. Fan fiction, to me, is either gen or adult. I want readers who come to my webpage to see it that way, too--especially those readers who would be annoyed to stumble across Peter Venkman and Egon Spengler sharing a chaste kiss in a gen fic. :)

I think the same is true for a lot of fan fiction writers--that it isn't so much homophobia as naivety. Though gay men and women are far less closeted than they used to be, it's still something that the public is adjusting to, their growing awareness that homosexuals are not some frightening class of people lurking on street corners with some wicked agenda to be on guard for, but simply your neighbors, your co-workers, people the same as you, doing the best we can to lead a good and happy life.

While the ignorance=fear=hate thing is going on, there are still signs that progress is being made. I see it online, in YahooAnswers for example, when questions are asked about homosexuality and the greater number of answers are always "live and let live" and completely supportive. I believe most of those responses come from young adults, but there are a few older people too. I see it in real life through people like my college-age son who was amused when I asked him if gay couples were as into PDA on campus as the straight couples and he shrugged and said, "Sure. Nobody cares."

I think that many slash writers, especially younger ones, are exploring homosexuality (as well as other issues) through their fiction and, as it has been for me, it's a learning process, an eye-opening one. I think these writers, if they keep writing, will come around to a better understanding of the issues, helped in part by postings like yours. Thanks.

(Reply to this)

don't know if this will make sense, but I'll try...
[info]13_tezcatlipoca
2007-08-31 05:38 am UTC (link)
Here from the skinny link. It's an interesting topic. Personally, I don't use the term "gay fiction" very often in my own work because it's A) not where the search engine hits come from and B) I'm not a gay male writer, I'm a chick of no particular sexual persuasion who happens to be writing this or that particular story about gay (or bi) characters. The story is what matters, not their sexual orientation, even if it's primarily a story about love. I do, however, provide warnings about the sexual orientation of the characters on the front page of the site, because that's what we on the web have always done since at least '99; it's merely a convention to stave off the right-wing loons who find their kids reading about two guys kissing ("Girls, Lisa, boys kiss girls") and then threatening us with court action, or the people who come along and read your stuff and go "omgz gay pr0nz u r sik person :B".

Anyway, regarding the typical roles you see around the place: any story that continually has one character being the "bottom" (femme type) and one being the "top" (manly man, butch, whatever), as an example, is melodrama. Melodrama is, as Stephen Donaldson defined it, where characters never change roles, eg character A is always the victim, character B is always the hero and character C is always the villain. This is an annoyance that takes place in a great deal of what masquerades as fiction, gay or not.

As a preface to what I'm about to say, when I use the terms "female" and "male" I'm speaking in the psychological sense, obviously (feminine side, masculine side; I believe we're all possessed of both, though not in equal measure, and not all the time.) And if you've ever had an orgasm, and ever experienced giving/receiving oral sex, or anal sex, I don't think the leap from female to male body or vice versa is a great one to make, especially if you've been that "connected" by love, and know what you're doing. :P In one of my novels, I do use the yaoi "roles" as a kind of convention, then turn them on their head. The character who is most male in the story is actually "the female", and when the first penetrative sex scene occurs (about 150 pages into the book or at chapter 13), he lets his partner, who has previously appeared to be more feminine if one wants to look at things that way, do the penetrating as a way of showing his trust, rescinding control, and giving his partner that control. Then everything changes again, and again, and again. Bad/good people aren't just bad/good, gay people aren't just gay, and so on. And sex, and love, and conversations, all have different meanings under different circumstances.

*shrugs* I don't know, I don't live in a world that's very black or white which may or may not be a consequence of my own gender preferences or lack thereof, and my own very mixed race. I got used to being victimised and beaten up when very young for who I was, and I figured people are going to hate me--or not--so why not just be me, whoever that is.

But then, I also don't live in America, where nearly every man, his child, and his dog, carries a gun and is capable of killing anyone who lives outside of the dominionist "norm". ;) So I certainly don't see your partner as being internally homophobic; rather painfully aware of everyone else's homophobia and the consequences and repercussions that can bring in today's society: for himself, for you, and for your little one(s). One generally becomes a little more conservative as a parent because a big part of your role is protecting your child from The Bad Things Out There, whether those things are, at any given moment, a reality or not.


(Reply to this)


[info]gloriana
2007-09-02 06:39 am UTC (link)
Here via long and round-about routes beginning with a metafandom link.

I'd like to add a few cents on why I, at least, use 'm/m' rather than 'gay fiction' to describe my slash fanfiction. For me, the description 'gay fiction' implies either that the person creating the work is gay (as one speaks about 'women's literature', being the body of literature created by women); or that the readership of the story is primarily gay.

I think it would be highly presumptuous of me, as mainly not-homosexual and certainly female, to claim the title 'gay' to describe myself as a writer or reader. I'd be very surprised if the people reading my stories were gay men. More than that, I'm not writing for gay men: I'm writing for slash readers, a largely female group (whether straight or lesbian). I see slash as a feminist activity, in the way it rejects traditional male/female roles, and in the way it acknowledges women's interest in sex, and in gay sex.

So no. I'm not writing gay fiction. I'm writing slash, and it's m/m to differentiate it from f/f.

Which does leave me with some guilt issues. I don't kid myself that I'm accurately representing what it's like to be a gay male when I write my characters, any more than I'm representing them the way TPTB and their original creators envisioned them. I'm concerned that gay men might find my representations obnoxious, especially if applied to themselves. Do I have the right to depict characters in what is, effectively, an idealised form that reflects what *I'm* interested in, rather than in some type of attempted realism? These are not questions I have easy answers for.

To quickly pick up another point:

The trope that some writers use – straight man, but gay only for you – I think could be argued as a signal that the writer has some IH issues that are unresolved.[...]As previously mentioned in this discussion, the possibility the character(s) is bisexual is an option, but never explored.

I think whether that trope can be used as such a signal varies with how it's played in the story. A very common use of it, for instance, is to represent just one of the two characters, with the other being either bisexual or gay - which rather upsets the theory that it's only written by people who don't, at heart, want their characters to be gay. Sometimes there might be an inherent homophobia, but sometimes there might not: like all slash tropes, such relatively simple ideas are a lot more complex, multifaceted and open to varying approaches by the writer and interpretations by the reader than one would think at first glance.

I'm picking up this point because I've come across the argument you put forward here elsewhere, and have often found that the person making the argument really doesn't have a handle on the appeal of such stories. Many of them are not primarily about constructions of gender identity; what they're talking about is the nature of overwhelming love, and how a character redefines himself in terms of the one he loves. Which is a metaphor for what happens to us all when we fall in love, no matter what the sex of the person loved.

Me personally, I have the advantage of mainly writing in a science fiction fandom where I can dictate the societal norms. So my characters are by default bisexual, unless I'm having fun putting them at one end of the spectrum or the other. I don't believe that a galactic culture where aliens and humans mix would be as confounded by notions of sexual differentiation as ours is.

(Reply to this)


[info]pfyre
2008-02-08 02:07 pm UTC (link)
As previously mentioned, Ann McCaffrey's Pern novels acknowledge homosexual activity amongst Green, Brown, and to a certain extent, Blue dragon riders. Many gay men were ecstatic when they read these brief mentions of the existence of gay men in a mainstream fantasy world. However, McCaffrey claimed in an interview that science has proven that being the receptive partner in anal sex triggers a hormonal change that will make a previously heterosexual man become homosexual and effeminate. Like Yaoi writers, she has imposed heterosexual sexual conventions upon gay men – one must always be passive, while the other must always by active. In her world, while more 80% of the dragon riders are gay and/or bisexual men, they are banned from any leadership positions within the Weyr, as only 100% heterosexual women and men can assume lead the Weyr.

Given the fact that there are so many non-heterosexual dragon riders in her universe, she has yet to write one story about one gay man. Her view on homosexuality and her institutionalization of rape within the Weyr, has made many take a hard look at her writings.
I'd like to share a tiny bit of light on the whole McCaffrey Pern situation, if I may.

I met Anne briefly at as SF media convention in the late 80s/early 90s - and she mentioned the whole homosexuality in her Pern novels and how many librarians would shake their head at her because Anne had managed to 'sneak' homosexuality into acceptable mainstream Science Fantasy. However, you have to consider she is a product of her generation and so many of her views cannot help but be heavily affected by them. That said at the time we met her at the convention she truly came across as a very enlightened woman.

That said HOWEVER - in recent years her son Todd has more or less taken over the McCaffrey Pern dynasty and the atmosphere in regards to homosexuality has definitely CHANGED for the worse -- denial, backtracking, negativity -- and much of this now attributed to Anne but I'm fairly certain we're hearing Todd's opinions and attitudes rather his mother's. It's a sad situation.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]logophilos
2008-02-09 01:49 am UTC (link)
My feeling is that homophobia by proxy is still homophobia. We wouldn't cut her (or her son) any slack if he was spewing racially offensive statements in her name, and the retconning and denials of the early material has caused huge offence.

Which is a shame because I loved those early books and Isaac Asimov always made McCaffrey sound great fun in his autobiographies. But I will never buy or read another one of her books, and I know I'm not the only one who feels that way for the same reason.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]pfyre, 2008-02-09 05:01 am UTC

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