Bisexuals in slash - Do Not Want?
Someone on my friends' list raised the subject of bisexuality with her therapist and was bemused to find that they didn't believe bisexuals truly exist.

The same seems to be true for slashers. Despite the fact we routinely slash men who have been canonically married, had girlfriends or enthusiastically attracted to women, once they find their object of attraction, no further discussion seems to arise about the fact they also like females. The assumptions go along the lines of:
1. The women were beards
2. They stayed married because the wife would take all their money/for the kids.
3. They like vaginas but dicks are much, much, MUCH better
4. The women were all figments of an overheated imagination.

Even when a widowed man finds comfort and a second chance for love with another man, the fact that his marriage was long, happy and sexually fulfilling is often not explored any more than the 'sudden' conversion to homosexuality. It goes 'straight, straight, straight, suddenly gay forever and ever.' Which makes the character seem rather shallow.

The fact that these men are probably functionally bisexual, rather than pretending to be straight and then suddenly coming out to their true nature, doesn't seem to occur to most slashers. Except when they want to write a threesome, and that is still saying that heterosexual sex is only acceptable if it's diluted by two dicks.

Bisexuals are almost invisible in the media (hello, Captain Jack!) but then so are homosexuals and people of colour, comparatively, and slashers don't let that stop them. So why does the real life phobia from straights and gays follow over into a genre which prides itself on trangressing? Why is it more acceptable to write interspecies sex, than to have a scenario where the slash pairing openly discuss their preferences for the opposite sex, or even where a bereaved male partner in such a situation, turns to a woman rather than a man?

I don't want to toot my own horn, but I can't think of another original slash writer other than myself who has characters who are true Kinsey 3s, or admit to or discuss heterosexual attractions with their homsexual partners.

So - how do you feel about reading about bisexuals? Have you got any examples of where they're used in slash fiction well? Is bisexuality the true love that dare not speak its name?

ETA: The thread on Internalised Homophobia and Slash Writers has been frozen and reposted, at davidpv's request, here:
http://community.livejournal.com/thisthingwedo/5414.html

(Post a new comment)

2metaldog 2007-08-06 11:23 pm UTC (link)

I've got an entire species that is predominantly bisexual. They see the desire for only male or only female partners as a little strange. Of the characters that I'm currently writing with this species, I have a pair of identical twins (the species is always multiple birth) with one only being attracted to males while the other is only attracted to females. The other two of this species I'm writing has both the character paired with a male but they have had and enjoyed sex with females. I've also got another species that is triple sexed (male, female and hermaphrodite). In that story, one of the mains prefers male dominants, which, in his culture means either males or hermaphrodites who look more male than female. I think it's difficult to find good slash fic with bisexuals that actually show said bisexuals enjoying the company of someone of the opposite sex. It's like some great taboo to have a someone who really enjoys both in a fic and write about it. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	logophilos 2007-08-07 06:52 am UTC (link)
	I'm not that it's not a copout to use nonhuman species to explore the concept of bisexuality. Giving the 'excuse' of biological determinism ignores what happens in our world. It does seem to be a taboo though. One I cheerfully break, but it runs up against the dislike of women in slash, a topic we've discussed there too. (Reply to this) (Parent)

bleedtoblue 2007-08-06 11:54 pm UTC (link)

*raises hand* you had to know I'd say something. The fandom that I didn't mention by name that uses bisexuality as an explanation for slashing characters who frequently date women and/or were married in canon is The Sentinel. Since the two lead characters date women in the series they are both frequently portrayed, in fanfiction, as bisexual. It started me thinking about how realistic that might be and how common bisexuality is, although the likely hood seems more possible than the suddenly gay scenario. Sometimes it's handled quite well and sometimes not. Due South is another fandom that deals well with characters that date women or were married in canon. Some writers do it well, others not so. I've not read much original fic that deals with it. I just can't agree with the therapist's opinion or the 'you're straight, gay, or lying' theory. (Reply to this) (Thread)

logophilos 2007-08-07 06:57 am UTC (link)

Actually, the Sentinel was a fandom I was thinking of as an example of where guys with strong canon demonstrations of non-faked interest in women, are frequently portrayed as secretly gay, with their overt interest in females dismissed as 'passing'. The marriage to Caroline failed because Jim is sekritly gay (or they both are and used the marriage cover), the interest in teh second Sentinel was because of pheromones, and Blair was just really good friends with all those women he pursued. As they say (very very often in Sentinel fandom in fact), denial is not just a river in Egypt. I've just seen just as much wriggling around with Fraser and Ray K, again despite very strong canon depictions of not just lust but love for women of a very enduring nature. When a slasher is determined to make someone completely gay, there is no canon strong enough to shoot holes in her premise! I already told you what I think of that therapist. She's just flat out wrong. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - demeter94, 2007-08-12 03:05 pm UTC

erastes 2007-08-07 12:24 am UTC (link)

I've personally had a lot of bad vibes from the straight and the gay community for my bi/pan/omni sexuality which has been very hurtful and cutting - don't belong in either camp (excuse the pun) I thoroughly agree though, there's not enough true bisexuality in fiction - specially fan fiction, men are converted to teh gay and never go back or as you say, the women are beards. It's part of the reason that I'm uncomfortable with menage fics as it's kind of cowardice - and an attempt to please everyone at once. Jeez. Hello people, Not all bisexuals are into threesomes you know. and not everyone who does threesomes are bisexual actually either, for the record!!! I have Lucius Malfoy as a true omnisexual like Captain Jack, he's married, he's happy with his marriage but he still sleeps with men and Narcissa has had to come to terms with that in her own way. The way I didn't like it much was in Phyllida and the Brotherhood of Philander - I admit freely that I didn't get further than the first few chapters but I found it rather impossible that a complete homosexual roue would be suddenly "converted" by a slip of a gel. Not saying it couldn't happen, it just didn't convince me. In my latest book I have a married man fall passionately in love with a 17 year old boy next door. Doesn't make him gay. Doesn't make him closeted, and it's his internal struggle that I hope that the reader will identify with. It's not about the sex for him, it's just that he's never been "in love" before. He loves his wife - and he adores his children - but he's never had that dreadful destructive love before and that's likely to destroy everything he has. When the young man says "Do you love her?" The husband can't answer him. How can he explain marriage, respect, children, shared experiences, friendship, companionsip to a teenager? I thought I had links to a few bi-writerly comms but i can't find them, dammnit. (Reply to this) (Thread)

leebenoit 2007-08-07 01:50 am UTC (link)

I heartily second Erastes' comment that, "I'm uncomfortable with menage fics as it's kind of cowardice - and an attempt to please everyone at once." In my real (bisexual) life, I often am treated as "suspect" by straight people and lesbians (but, oddly, not gay men). That's one reason why I identify with the broader definitions of "queer" out there. I'm not all that familiar with fanfiction, but in the tons of original slash I've read there are only rare honest treatments of bisexuals (Logophilos's oeuvre comes immediately to mind, as does Manna Francis's "Administration" series. I generally can't stand characters or plots that include bisexual behavior as a pap to readers who might be squicked by more purely queer action. That man/woman-in-the-middle scenario just seems to pander to stereotypical straight fantasies of having two lovers' attention focused upon oneself (any m/m or f/f action is secondary at best, and seldom handled well). Now, the foregoing only touches on the erotic aspects of the question. What about that old chestnut, character development? How individual characters relate, develop simpatico, forge lives, support each other, etc. etc. must have pride of place in any GOOD fiction, slash or otherwise. I'll stagger off the ol' soapbox now; I'm very grateful for this discussion. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - logophilos, 2007-08-07 07:03 am UTC

therck 2007-08-07 01:10 am UTC (link)

I suspect that some of the reluctance to have characters be bisexual comes from the romance genre tradition that any given person is only allowed to truly love once. It leads to female characters who are either sexually inexperienced or whose previous experiences have been all bad. In Rurouni Kenshin fandom, some fans really hate the character Tomoe, Kenshin's first wife. She died ten years before the story starts, but there are still bitter fan arguments about whether or not he loved her. If he did, they argue, then he can't love Kaoru (the present day love interest), and if he loves Kaoru, then he must not have truly loved Tomoe. Just thinking about it makes my head hurt because I think it reflects a truly pernicious myth about love and relationships. At any rate, people writing slash are writing romances, and many of them subscribe to the One and Only True Love myth. Bisexuality adds a layer of complication to 'simple romance.' Personally, I rather like having characters be to some degree bisexual. It adds possibilities and complications. (Reply to this) (Thread)

logophilos 2007-08-07 07:10 am UTC (link)

I suspect that some of the reluctance to have characters be bisexual comes from the romance genre tradition that any given person is only allowed to truly love once. Yes, indeed, as well as the misogyny we've talked about here before. I just don't get how you can portray a character sympathetically if they spend a long time with a previous partner either out of fear, mutual convenience or an attempt to cover one's sexuality. In real life, I would be very very wary of a guy whose marriage failed because he realised he had never loved his ex. I mean - that's idiotic. Kenshin and Tomoe are difficult because they started as pretend spouses. In the end, he loved her, in whatever fashion, and his grief was so real and heartbreaking. To ignore that is to completely misunderstand that character. There's an utterly adorable SGA AU where John is recently widowed and falls in love with Rodney. It loses points in this discussion for the lack of mention of how John became 'suddenly' gay (since he explicitly states he's never had any kind of feelings for a guy before), but the respect for the dead wife is so very beautifully and movingly done, I wish I could shove it in the faces of all writers and say, see? You don't have to demonise past loves to get your boy sexxing in! Story is here (it's one where you need to know no canon at all to follow it): http://home.comcast.net/~wesleysgirl/fanfiction/sga/life.html (Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - were_lemur, 2007-08-09 01:16 am UTC

davidpv 2007-08-07 01:42 am UTC (link)

I have no problem with bisexual characters, as long as the author is able to convey to the reader the bisexuality of the character BEFORE he meets the male object of his desire. Too many times, authors portray male characters who are presented to be 100% heterosexual (no inkling of an interest in other men), only to have them fall in lust at the sight of one man. This characterization and writing leaves the reader with not only disbelief, but whiplash. (I am referring to original fiction, not to authors who slash others' original works.) I have known many gay men who identified themselves as bisexual during their coming out process; however, they always knew deep down they were attracted to men. For many gay men, it is more comfortable to label themselves as bisexual for a period of time, before they can acknowledge that they are in fact gay. Personally, I have extreme difficulty in connecting with a story where a character enters into a same-sex relationship without any hint that the character had any same-sex desires. If you wish to have a bisexual character, fine by me, but please make sure you establish the character's bisexuality before he falls in love. Having said that, there are many gay men who even today feel that they have to play it straight and get married. Many of them will eventually come out years later as gay men. However, just because they have been married to a woman does not make them bisexual. If a writer has such a character, then they need to establish this fact. As to bisexuality, I think more heterosexual men would be inclined to engage in sexual acts with other men, if society did not consider it to be a taboo. However, such men, IMHO, would not be bisexual. They would just be men looking for a way for sexual release. Even the CDC have recognized that when it comes to identifying men for STD's. Instead of having men identify as gay or bisexual, the new category os MSM - Men who have sex with men. This allows the CDC to identify those men who have sex with other men, yet do not identify as either gay or bisexual. A bisexual person is one who is not only sexually attracted to members of either sex, but who is able to develop a romantic/emotional connection with members of either sex. Maybe if society did not look down on same-sex relationships, more people would be open to exploring long-term relationships of either gender, but that is not the case today. Please note that identifying oneself as either gay or bisexual is not just letting people know your sexual orientation, but a public (political) statement of themselves. For example, J. Edgar Hoover was as homosexual as Liberace, but neither could be called gay, as they never embraced themselves and in fact denied who they were to the world. (Reply to this) (Thread)

More soap-boxing from a Kinsey-3 leebenoit 2007-08-07 05:54 pm UTC (link)

One of the strongest contributions of gay literary fiction in the past 30 years or so has been to storm the gates of the misconception that men might have sex with men, but they cannot love each other (Lesbian fiction had less of a battle in this regard, in my opinion, because of the essentialist idea that women are all about love in the first place, among other reasons). Sure, homosexuality was depathologized in the 1970s, but there's been a loooong culture lag in terms of incorporating that idea into the mainstream culture (evilly abbetted by the so-called culture wars here in the US), inculding popular media. The CDC's MSM category, as well as pop culture's lurid propagation of sub-cultural ideals like the "down low (don't get me started) seem to me little more than loopholing back to the old idea of m/m sexuality and affinity as something anomalous, sick, emotionless, and criminal. Reading these posts over the last couple of days has made me aware that writers of slash fanfiction may be channeling this new-old ideology, I hope unwittingly, when authors use past m/f relationships as beards, demonize opposite-sex rivals, cast opposite-sex characters only as "best friends," present protagonists as "only gay for each other" and other pitfalls that have been mentioned. I see this problem, though to a lesser extent, in m/m original fiction. Do y'all think the fanfiction performs worse in this regard because of the influence of canon? Does the perpetuity of retrograde ideas about sexuality represents a lack of imagination or experience on authors' parts, or is the problem a more insidious one of homophobia, anti-bi bias, or something else? (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: More soap-boxing from a Kinsey-3 - davidpv, 2007-08-07 06:58 pm UTC

Re: More soap-boxing from a Kinsey-3 - logophilos, 2007-08-07 09:44 pm UTC

From an dissed gay man - davidpv, 2007-08-08 01:41 am UTC

Re: From an dissed gay man - logophilos, 2007-08-08 04:13 am UTC

Re: From a dissed gay man - davidpv, 2007-08-08 07:04 am UTC

Re: From a dissed gay man - logophilos, 2007-08-08 09:18 am UTC

Re: From a dissed gay man - davidpv, 2007-08-08 02:41 pm UTC

Re: From a dissed gay man - logophilos, 2007-08-08 10:53 pm UTC

Part I - davidpv, 2007-08-10 06:10 pm UTC

Re: Part I - logophilos, 2007-08-10 08:37 pm UTC

Re: Part I - davidpv, 2007-08-13 01:41 am UTC

Re: Part I - logophilos, 2007-08-10 09:57 pm UTC

Re: Part I - davidpv, 2007-08-13 01:46 am UTC

Part II - davidpv, 2007-08-10 06:12 pm UTC

Re: Part II - logophilos, 2007-08-10 08:47 pm UTC

Re: From a dissed gay man - davidpv, 2007-08-08 02:48 pm UTC

How gay is slash? - leebenoit, 2007-08-08 04:34 pm UTC

Re: From a dissed gay man - logophilos, 2007-08-08 11:03 pm UTC

Re: From a dissed gay man - logophilos, 2007-08-08 11:11 pm UTC

Re: From an dissed gay man - carmarthen, 2007-08-11 01:35 am UTC

Labels - logophilos, 2007-08-11 04:08 am UTC

Gay and marriage as social constructs - davidpv, 2007-08-13 01:39 am UTC

Re: From an dissed gay man - sparkindarkness, 2007-08-16 12:04 am UTC

Re: From an dissed gay man - logophilos, 2007-08-16 12:26 am UTC

Re: From an dissed gay man - sparkindarkness, 2007-08-16 12:40 am UTC

Re: More soap-boxing from a Kinsey-3 - spoggly, 2007-08-08 07:01 pm UTC

Re: More soap-boxing from a Kinsey-3 - san_grail, 2007-08-09 08:49 pm UTC

Re: More soap-boxing from a Kinsey-3 - carmarthen, 2007-08-11 01:31 am UTC

Re: More soap-boxing from a Kinsey-3 - davidpv, 2007-08-11 01:59 am UTC

Re: More soap-boxing from a Kinsey-3 - sparkindarkness, 2007-08-15 11:58 pm UTC

Re: More soap-boxing from a Kinsey-3 - logophilos, 2007-08-16 12:30 am UTC

Re: More soap-boxing from a Kinsey-3 - sparkindarkness, 2007-08-16 12:44 am UTC

Re: More soap-boxing from a Kinsey-3 - san_grail, 2007-08-09 08:10 pm UTC

(no subject) - leebenoit, 2007-08-16 02:22 am UTC

(no subject) - san_grail, 2007-09-11 12:22 pm UTC

*here from metafandom* spoggly 2007-08-07 03:57 am UTC (link)

Extremely interesting post, and I agree with a lot of what you said. One idea (that I loathe) that's popular, especially in House fandom, is that the men are only "gay for each other." Bisexuality as a true sexual orientation is completely dismissed, and being gay is seen as something only acceptable in the writer's OTP, not as an identity outside of it. (To disclaim, there is good bisexual fanfic in the fandom as well - I just wish there was more of it.) It's always been my personal (annoyingly repeated) opinion that a lot of the biases and attitudes about fanfiction sexuality are carried over from real life, especially when the fact that the majority of slash writers are straight women is taken into consideration. Bisexuality is a highly uncomfortable idea for both the gay and straight community, and it's much harder to reduce bisexual men to the straight-up, porny "other" than a man that's slept/is sleeping/will sleep with women in addition to men. I wish that I could read more about queer(ed) characters who are bisexual, instead of seeming gay and othered. (P.S.: huge love for the Douglas/Wilde reference) (Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: *here from metafandom* logophilos 2007-08-07 07:14 am UTC (link)

Oh, the 'We're not gay we just love each other' thing - I've seen so much of that in fandom. Fortunately, not in original writing where you don't have to bend canon to get your man love in. To me, if a guy is chasing women, but able to get it up for and form a relationship with a man, then he's functionally bisexual - because how does he ever discover that he likes the man sex if he's not even slightly off 0 on the Kinsey scale! a lot of the biases and attitudes about fanfiction sexuality are carried over from real life Yup. But it's irritating because we are supposed to be so bloody edgy and out there because we write slash. Sad that this 'edginess' seems to be confined to seeing how low we can go on the age thing, and not exploring things like disability, age, bisexuality, racism or any other non-romantic, real world issues in slash. (Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: *here from metafandom* - inlaterdays, 2007-08-08 06:55 pm UTC

Re: *here from metafandom* - spoggly, 2007-08-08 08:19 pm UTC

kickair8p 2007-08-07 04:25 am UTC (link)

Walked into this right before stumbling off to bed, so, don't expect much in the way of coherence. But, "...raised the subject of bisexuality with her therapist and was bemused to find that they didn't believe bisexuals truly exist" -- isn't this the same bunch that previously classified homosexuality as a mental disorder? Also, I remember a reasonably well-known study (which, of course, I can't remember the name of) that showed everybody's bisexual to some degree. Almost every culture we come from values monogomy, even serial monogomy, to the point of using the word "faithful" for it. Bisexuality threatens that, not just by doubling the potential for cheating and nearly eliminating the possibility of "safe" friendships, but by suggesting (erroneously, but still) that sexual "fidelity" isn't feasable (because bisexuals supposedly have to fulfill both sides of their natures by getting it on with partners of both genders). ~ (Reply to this) (Thread)

	kickair8p 2007-08-07 04:32 am UTC (link)
	"Also, I remember a reasonably well-known study (which, of course, I can't remember the name of) that showed everybody's bisexual to some degree." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_scale And now I really am going to bed. ~ (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - logophilos, 2007-08-07 07:15 am UTC

(no subject) - kickair8p, 2007-08-27 03:34 am UTC

arathe 2007-08-07 04:55 pm UTC (link)

It's an interesting subject, really. Once you pointed it out, I realized you were right; bisexuality is barely acknowledged at all in slash. Fanfiction seems to be the worst offender, since like someone else said, writers often have to twist canon if they want their slashy goodness. As far as I'm concerned, bisexuality is as valid and real as gay or straight, and deserves mention if it applies to the character. It is simply part of creating a realistic, well-developed character, especially if you have a character transitioning from a lover of one gender to the other. In my experience, no one wakes up one day going, "Oh gee, it seems I'm suddenly gay now, without the slightest lingering attraction to the opposite sex." That's just, well, stupid. XD I don't quite understand the reluctance of so many to address bisexuality, since I find it adds realism and depth to a story and to a character. (Reply to this) (Thread)

logophilos 2007-08-07 09:57 pm UTC (link)

I would love to know if there's *any* real life examples of 'suddenly gay'. The only one I can think of is Tom Robinson: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Robinson Who after a life of flamboyantly 'out there' homosexuality, suddenly met a woman and fell in love (I believe he thought she was a bloke first :) ) Surely a perfect example of being 'straight' for the right person. Don't know if it happens the other way around. (I know a lesbian who experienced the 'suddenly straight' thing when she fell for a guy but I don't know if he was her first male lover or not. Surveys indicate that very many gay men have had one or more sexual encounter with women, even after coming out, so it's possible the opposite is true for lesbians.) (Reply to this) (Parent)

suryaofvulcan 2007-08-07 08:57 pm UTC (link)

Hi I think there are two questions here (or possibly more). 1. If you write original fiction, the characters and the universe in which they live are yours and yours alone, and you can have them be gay, straight, varying degrees of bisexual, or asexual. I can see no reason not to include a bisexual character if that’s what the character tells you he is. 2. In fanfic, however, we have to contend with this pesky thing called canon, in which most of our boys have only ever had heterosexual relationships. There are several ways of dealing with this. We can ignore it and create an AU where the boys are openly gay and always have been, disregarding any episodes or scenes in canon where they‘ve been involved romantically or sexually with women, or we can attempt to ‘explain’ it in some way, for example: a) imagining they’ve always been gay but were hiding it for some reason (which definitely happens in real life); b) imagining they have a latent attraction towards their own sex, but haven’t acted on it before (Kinsey-1?); c) imagining they are bisexual to some degree, but their same-sex relationships simply haven’t been explored in canon; d) imagining they are primarily straight, but a degree of situational homosexual behaviour grows into a full-blown love affair, overcoming their primary orientation; or e) given that two characters are involved, some combination of the above. I’ve used all of the above in one story or another, depending on what the characters told me was happening. (When I write it’s as if one of the boys is sitting on my shoulder telling me his story. Yes, I am bonkers.) I think I’ve only ever written them as truly bisexual, and still interested in women, once in over 35 stories. The thing is, as someone else mentioned, slashers are mostly writing m/m romance, the conventions of which require a monogamous, happy-ever-after ending, which mitigates against showing them as still interested in other people, male or female. It’s hard to sell Bill and Ted being happy-ever-after if one or both is saying, “Unless of course I fancy a bit of tit.” As for what a writer *should* write - that can’t be a matter of being PC or diverse or ‘edgy’. You write the story that demands to be written. Period. That might be a slushy little first time m/m romance-fantasy, or it might be an epic saga in which everyone is sleeping with everyone else. You can only write what the story demands. (Reply to this) (Thread)

logophilos 2007-08-07 09:23 pm UTC (link)

It’s hard to sell Bill and Ted being happy-ever-after if one or both is saying, “Unless of course I fancy a bit of tit.” How is it different to imagine a bisexual or pair of bisexuals being monogamous with each other, even though they may later encounter people who are desirable, than it is to imagine that a heterosexual couple will be despite being surrounded by potential mates? This is buying into the myth that bisexuals are innately promiscuous. Once you've made a committment to monogamy, why does it matter if tempation comes in the form of a man or a woman. My bisexual friends are *all* monogamous. That doesn't make them suddenly homosexual or heterosexual - it means they've chosen the person they love to live with and be faithful to. It doesn't mean they aren't bisexual any more. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - suryaofvulcan, 2007-08-07 10:05 pm UTC

(no subject) - logophilos, 2007-08-07 10:21 pm UTC

(no subject) - logophilos, 2007-08-08 05:15 am UTC

(no subject) - suryaofvulcan, 2007-08-08 11:09 am UTC

(no subject) - kayjayuu, 2007-08-09 09:54 am UTC

(no subject) - suryaofvulcan, 2007-08-09 08:16 pm UTC

litalex 2007-08-08 10:29 am UTC (link)

Well, I've almost always assumed that the characters I slash are bisexual, because, quite frankly, I find the idea that they've lying to themselves or their previous sexual partners all along pretty distasteful. And I do know plenty of slash writers, including some of the more prominent ones, who write their characters as bisexual. It certainly makes more sense, for me, than any other scenario... (Reply to this) (Thread)

P.S. litalex 2007-08-08 10:55 am UTC (link)

And although there are very few bisexual characters on screen or in the pages of published books, Mary Renault had written bisexual characters, so had Lois McMaster Bujold, to name some off-hand. One of the characters from "Homicide: Life on the Street" is bisexual; in fact, I recall a pretty well-written essay about the thought processes, etc. guys who discovered late that they might be bisexual might feel... (Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - logophilos, 2007-08-08 11:35 pm UTC

(no subject) - litalex, 2007-08-09 12:40 pm UTC

towerofindigo 2007-08-08 12:13 pm UTC (link)

From my experience and from my studies, which focussed on the aspect of it throughout history, I believe that most people are bisexual, and the heteros and homos are actually the minority. Throughout history, just taking the Greeks and Romans for example, there was lots of male/male sex and interaction, but men were considered deviants if they exclusively practiced homosexuality. Most men were expected to marry (a woman LOL) and if they still have a lover on the side...well, ok. Majority of the women I know who read, write and enjoy slash involving male/male, though they say they are not prejudice against gays or bis specifically, still wouldn't date a bi guy and still have general feelings of discomfort seeing male/male romance outside of a 'party' setting or open club. Just for daily life together with another man, especially if they have children (meaning adopted or natural), they feel discomfort with that also. So it's like they like to read it, but they still don't believe in equal. I had one tell me that she just couldn't trust a bi guy to be faithful and committed to her. Is that writing and reading too much extreme action gay/bi fiction and falling into the trap where you believe its like this in the real world? I am a bisexual male. I find some of both men and women attractive. Though I get along better with men in relationships overall, I prefer the exoticness of a women, yet most never take my advances seriously if they know I am bisexual. They think I am just testing or something??? I believe bisexual is the true love where you cannot speak the name, because most people don't want to hear it. You have so many bi's who do it for the wrong reason, just to fuck around basically, and I mean men who just want to fuck and they don't care who. These are the ones who are more visible, and they make us other bisexuals look bad to the 'others'. I found myself naturally bisexual because I seek love, and to me, it doesn't matter the gender. Most people, even if you tell them that, don't believe it. They've been influenced by the 'bad' (LOL relatively speaking) bi's, and the gays who say "You're just hiding your true nature, pretending to still like women." I don't have to pretend. I really do like them, but many seem to prefer a big, strappy asshole who tells them what to do all the time, or what they can't do. That's not me. I don't get the girls. Pity. So I necessarily gravitate them towards the acceptance of men. Just as leebenoit said. I don't get doubted by gays, only the straights by majority. In slash, the bisexuals seem to mostly be represented by women who still write under the premise, "These two guys are a 'blackout' and a bottle of wine away from being gay." Even if sex happened at such a time, doesn't suddenly make you gay. I think that is a big difference in Western/English societies and Western European societies. In Germany is it very tolerated that young people will experiment with either sex. It's rather natural to be curious, to be bisexual. While it's still so openly frowned, if sometimes tolerated among the English speakers. (Reply to this) (Thread)

logophilos 2007-08-08 11:14 pm UTC (link)

In slash, the bisexuals seem to mostly be represented by women who still write under the premise, "These two guys are a 'blackout' and a bottle of wine away from being gay." Yes, exactly. They're not presented as truly bisexual, but in denial. We're never shown that their love of women was not faked, or that it doesn't disappear once they're in a homosexual relationship. Bisexuals are shown as functionally gay, which completely denies the reality. (Reply to this) (Parent)

Part 2 towerofindigo 2007-08-08 12:13 pm UTC (link)

As erastes spoke of, Of one's talking about bi/tri/pan sexuals who are married or in a committed relationship with the opposite sex, but who still sleep with others, male or female....carries over to real time life especially for female writers and readers. Then other topics come into play like faithfulness, loyalty, fidelty, and that is what they fear in real life: having a partner whom they love and are committed to, but who are not committed to them in the same way. So different issues come to overlap. logophilos and I have discussed this a lot, and I've asked a lot of questions as a bi man, considered by most to be gay mostly because of appearance (I have very long hair, pfft! I look girlish, screw them I say LOL) but I did ask the questions, why do you write about gay/bi men? do you have a hatred for bi/gay men or deep resentment because you often write about bdsm or torture? I was deeply curious, and I found a person honest enough to answer the questions, and I was satisfied, but I did have to come to the understanding that most of this genre is written by women for women. A lot of it didn't have a gay or bi's more natural reactions because it wouldn't be as interesting to women if they had actually done do. But it's curious to me that Davidpv, who doesn't know logophilos would reply with such accusatory words himself without knowing the person himself? I think this is a continuing problem of accuse, accuse and pass off names to call without truly delving deep into the minds behind the issues. At least the questions were asked and put out for comment. I mean, really. < To refuse to research the lives of real gay men to prepare for your story makes one wonder why the writer does not wish to do so. I did just that. Have made a point to ask a number of female slash writers their views, preparations, etc. etc. < I wish people would take the time to read the post before flying off the handle. In response: That is what you did in the first place davidpv. Then you make such reply. That's almost funny. And btw davipv, I never had experienced such venom and condescension as a bisexual man until I came to the US. I am Russian from Germany, btw. And the attitude demonstrated by you in this forum: easily to attack and toss a few words, which later if confronted, they say was misunderstood, or they become accusatory that they were attacked first. Clip on the shoulder it seems to me. kickair8p dead on: But, "...raised the subject of bisexuality with her therapist and was bemused to find that they didn't believe bisexuals truly exist" -- isn't this the same bunch that previously classified homosexuality as a mental disorder? Talked to a therapist before and a friend who is a psychiatrist, and from most more modern books I've studied in obtaining a degree, as I stated above, bisexuality is the most natural state of humans, as in the animal world as well. I remember reading such "mental disorder books" when I was young. That I was now deranged because I still somewhat preferred male exclusives relations after I reached puberty when (so they said) naturally a young boy will switch his male childhood playmates to be awed by girls. Bisexuals are underrepresented in slash, and if they are written in, to me as a bimale writing and reading, they are not well thought out or are incorrect (involving males) with some exceptions, yet I grant most of it is written by women for women. It doesn't mean that I did not enjoy to read it, but most is not correct. It's for me like reading a book written about Russians by a non-Russian who has studied some about Rus and its people. Amusing some of it, some literary good anyway, and not automatically dismissed, but it does have a different flavour just like a man's kiss from a woman's. (Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Part 2 logophilos 2007-08-08 11:16 pm UTC (link)

It's for me like reading a book written about Russians by a non-Russian who has studied some about Rus and its people. Amusing some of it, some literary good anyway, and not automatically dismissed, but it does have a different flavour just like a man's kiss from a woman's. Yes - some gay men actually prefer slash, just as some women prefer gay fiction because gay fic tends to be raunchier and much more focused on physical details. There is a lot of crossover appeal between the genres, which doesn't invalidate either. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Part 2 - towerofindigo, 2007-08-09 12:35 am UTC

	princessofg 2007-08-08 06:58 pm UTC (link)
	actually, in all my fandoms the bisexuality thing has been a common theme in slash fiction. Along with the usual WNG, Suddenly Gay For You Alone, and Gay All Along But Closeted themes. I'm here via metafandom, so I'm not sure what your fandom(s) are, but in my fandoms The Bi Explanation is alive and well. (Reply to this) (Thread)

logophilos 2007-08-08 11:19 pm UTC (link)

all my fandoms the bisexuality thing has been a common theme in slash fiction Talking to a longtime Professionals slasher, she said that in the beginning, the guys were all WNGWJLEO. A few years later, they were shown as gay and using women as beards. Now there's a lot more open acceptance of them being bisexual. So some of this discussion - certainly mine - is going to be coloured by when you started reading a fandom. It's possible the newer ones, like bandom, will be more casual and accepting of the bisexuality explanation, than a much older one like Highlander, or Xfiles and so on. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - princessofg, 2007-08-09 12:53 pm UTC

tonko_ni 2007-08-08 07:05 pm UTC (link)

I love bisexuality. I'm pretty sure I am (bi-curious, I guess, I'm in a commited het relationship so there's no way to really see anymore), and I actually don't really get how everyone can't be, somewhat. Captain Jack is, yeah, I guess the only example out there right now, and it's fun to see how that comes out in fic, he's probably the only character that gets to be paired with anyone and none of it's OOC according to canon. I love Jack :D he allows some excellent porn to be written. I consider slash fic where the guys are actually gay to be way more AU than where they're bi. Since I know the intent of TPTB for most shows is probably for the characters to be het, I don't like just throwing the onscreen evidence away in fic. If there is no evidence either way, or awkward evidence, like how many fic authors read Sheppard from SGA as gay onscreen due to how he acts towards the women he's supposed to be romantic with, then that's fine. But when there is nice and plain het evidence, it always works better for me, in terms of a fic feeling authentic, if a character is bi rather than gay-faking-het. Or (what I do actually dislike) when they've been het up to that point and now are with a man, but they're not gay, this is some kind of magical exception. Not to say I won't read and enjoy fics where the characters are presented as gay, but I definitely appreciate when they're bi. My fics have the pairings I like, so if they're homosexual pairings, then the characters in them are gay or bi depending on how canon presented them. Some have little enough that they could go anywhere. I think there's only one time where I purposefully made one guy gay where in canon he certainly wasn't. But it was an AU, which is why it didn't bother me to do that. (Reply to this) (Thread)

logophilos 2007-08-08 11:32 pm UTC (link)

Sheppard's an interesting case, which nymphaea1 talked about here: http://community.livejournal.com/thisthingwedo/5251.html?thread=99715#t99715 He's like Benton Fraser or Jim Ellison in that we're supposed to read his awkwardness with women as 'proof' of his gayness, when it could equally be he's just awkward with *people* (which has been canonically discussed.) So of course those moments when he enthusiastically accepts sex from women must be 'faking' or due to some mental aberration of manipulation. I've read hardly any fic where he is comfortably bisexual - most treat him, as towerofindigo put it above, as "a 'blackout' and a bottle of wine away from being gay." It's interesting that the more socially inept of the usual pairing is the one portrayed most often as confidently bisexual, when the canon indicates he's lacking in confidence about sex generally, and finds the idea of man sex vaguely disturbing. Aren't slash goggles weird things? :) (Reply to this) (Parent)

Canon example teh_no 2007-08-08 07:06 pm UTC (link)

One example of this in canon juts out at me (forgive me if this has already been covered in your comments, but you've got a lot of very long comments). In Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Willow is attracted to Xander, has a long and fulfilling romantic/sexual relationship with Oz, meets her bisexual vampire counterpart from another dimension (of course, these days pretty much all vampires are bisexual... humping chaos demons is the real taboo:), then ends up with Tara. Tara dies and Willow moves on to another woman (of course, I can see where having a high-profile lesbian character turn back to men would be controversial... not that they cared about controversy when they killed Tara, but I digress). Alright so far. Willow is a bisexual who just happened to get into relationships with two women in turn. What's really weird is that in an episode where a magic letterman jacket makes her fall in love with a man, she plans to turn him into a woman to consummate the relationship. Really now! I can't picture her cuddling with Oz in the afterglow and saying "That was great, but you know what would be awesome? If you had ovaries." And if you want to look at comic books, this happens from time to time with former love interests (usually heterosexual, but I know lesbian cop Renee Montoya used to date a man who was retconned into being a beard... possibly as part of a company-wide reset button smash). Bart used to be in love with Carol before she inexplicably vanished. And ask anyone who ships Dick/Kory and they will be PISSED. OFF. About how their OTP has been shoved from true love (wedding and everything!) into just a fling Dick had because he couldn't have Barbara. So it's not just the slashers who are doing it... In Broadway RPFS, it's usually that a boyfriend is scummy (y halo thar cocaine addiction) or that Taye Diggs is cheating on Idina Menzel. Of course, I just wrote Taye Diggs being stepped on by a Sentinel. I'm weird like that. (Reply to this)

dracothelizard 2007-08-08 07:23 pm UTC (link)

It is indeed something that props up in fanfiction a lot, but I think it's part of the convention that there is only one True Love For Everyone, and that you can't love two people equally at a different times. I mean, the Remus/Sirius shippers in Harry Potter were pissed off because of Remus/Tonks, even though Remus/Tonks happened after Sirius had died, and so she wasn't even a threat to the pairing as such. Yes, it's annoying to have canon evidence that half of your slash pairing also likes the ladies, but that's never stopped fandom before, and there is no reason as to why Remus can't have been bi and loved Sirius and Tonks equally. Apparently it's unacceptable that Remus loves two different people a lot. I see it quite often, the whole 'oh, I never loved anyone like you before!' thing, and too frequently to have it be a 'bisexuality doesn't exist' (although there is a worrying amount of people who think that, I'll agree with you there), I think it's more a mindset where being able to love more than one person romantically and sexually at different times is seen as weird, after all, the media tells us about that One True Love all the time. I wouldn't be surprised if there is Jack/Sam (who is female, btw) fic in the Stargate SG-1 fandom in which Jack thinks that he loves Sam more than he ever loved his ex-wife. (Reply to this) (Thread)

logophilos 2007-08-08 11:49 pm UTC (link)

I wouldn't be surprised if there is Jack/Sam (who is female, btw) fic in the Stargate SG-1 fandom in which Jack thinks that he loves Sam more than he ever loved his ex-wife I know there is Jack/Daniel where he does. That's why I found the fic by wesleysgirl so refreshing - to acknowledge a past love was as important as the present one in fanfiction is almost unique. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - dracothelizard, 2007-08-09 09:22 pm UTC

	(Anonymous) 2007-08-08 07:33 pm UTC (link)
	Most Stargate Atlantis fanfics I read feature a definitely bisexual Rodney McKay. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	logophilos 2007-08-08 11:34 pm UTC (link)
	Yes, which, as I said here http://community.livejournal.com/thisthingwedo/5251.html?thread=102019#t102019 Is weird because he's shown as feeling rather icky about man sex (at least man kissing) in canon! And John's the one making casual jokes about men being gay or bi! (Reply to this) (Parent)

kutsuwamushi 2007-08-08 08:08 pm UTC (link)

[via metafandom] I'm sorry if I'm repeating anything, but this thread is already pretty long! I can only speak for the fandoms I have experience with, and I suspect that fandom does have a big effect on the portrayal of bisexuals in its fanfiction. Different characters have different pasts which require different explanations, and all. I'm used to fanfiction that acknowledges that the character is bisexual, but just leaves it in the background. Because the focus is on the present relationship most of the time, that seems fair to me. I've never felt that my sexuality is being slighted by fandom in general, just by a few specific clueless authors. In fact, the "everybody is bisexual" mindset has become so common that I've begun to like it when a character is homosexual, just because it's different. Most of my canons lack stable relationships, though. The main characters are too young and the supporting characters don't get that type of development, among other reasons. (In the Bleach anime, for example, I can only name two characters who have definitely been married! That's with a huge supporting cast.) I don't think it's about prejudice towards bisexuals, but defensiveness towards prior relationships in general. Many authors feel the need to justify the new relationship as better than the last, because it must be the characters' true love. You can see this in the Gundam Wing fandom: Heero/Duo was "the" pairing involving either of those characters for so long that when people began to write Duo with other characters, they would devalue the Heero/Duo relationship by writing Heero as an abuser. There's some nasty misogyny in fandom but I'm not sure that writing off past relationships with women necessarily stems from that. (Reply to this) (Thread)

logophilos 2007-08-08 11:46 pm UTC (link)

In fact, the "everybody is bisexual" mindset has become so common that I've begun to like it when a character is homosexual, just because it's different. And yet from the comments here, a lot of people feel as I do, that bisexuality is not the default setting for a character with a canonical het history. So it seems to depend on the fandoms and also, I'm beginning to see, the age of the fandom, because there seems to have been a progression. New fandoms, or newer writing in old fandoms, are more comfortable with bisexuals than older ones. However, when I've read a character being treated as bisexual, I still don't see: 1. Them using the *word* bisexual in relation to themselves. Other characters will refer to them as 'gay' even when the past history is acknowledged. 2. They're not shown as functionally bisexual after the One True Gay relationship starts. There's no acknowledgement that hey, breasts are still pretty neat, and yes, they will notice a fine looking woman, even when they continue to joke about other *men* being attractive. So 'bi' men are shown as functionally homosexual, which is both dishonest, and not how real bisexuals behave. At least, the monogamous bisexuals *I* know, are more than happy to acknowledge the attractiveness of the opposite sex, even though they have no intention of acting on it. (Much as I will happily drool over a pretty boy actor or even a guy in the shop, without that meaning I want to shag either of them :) ) I'm not sure that writing off past relationships with women necessarily stems from that. Oh, god, I sure am. I've read too many Caroline Ellison and Stella Kowalski bashing fics, where Duncan MacLeod's very long relationship with Tessa may as well not have existed, to think otherwise. Past and still living ex spouses and girlfriends are only tolerated if they are either gay themselves or act as yentas. Either they're written out or written as evil screaming harpies. The possibility that the relationship with them could have been meaningful or loving doesn't seem to occur to too many authors. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - kutsuwamushi, 2007-08-09 03:06 am UTC

(no subject) - logophilos, 2007-08-09 03:21 am UTC

	rumpelgeist 2007-08-08 08:17 pm UTC (link)
	I Do not know if This is true or No, but it could come from a Wanting of Innocence. Many times one of The characters is Experienced the other (the straight one Usually) is Innocent, Hesitant, Inexperienced or Wholesome and somehow Bisexual gives impression Of Worldliness. This would Be a good thing to examine the connotations Of Bisexual in a slasher's Mind. (Reply to this) (Thread)

logophilos 2007-08-08 11:53 pm UTC (link)

Bisexuality is too often conflated with promiscuity which is a nasty little prejudice both in slash and in the real world. But as you say the idea of the innocent or virginal lover finding the one and only true love of the life is a very powerful and popular one. It's actually as prominent in gay lit as in slash - the idea that there is only one person for us - but the lack of sexual experience seems to be much more a women's thing than men's. We seem to have internalised the male demand for the purity of womenhood, which doesn't do us any favours at all. (Reply to this) (Parent)

in from metafandom incunabulist 2007-08-08 08:28 pm UTC (link)

*scratches head* You know, I don't think I've even once addressed sexuality labels in fic one way or the other. And my one threesome has two characters in a het relationship fall in love with the same man. This is possibly to do with the fact that I'm not terribly concerned about calling it one thing or another. I'll identify a person with their preferred terminology, of course, if they have one, but I feel unqualified to "Kinsey" someone else when I can't really do it to myself. There's no number for "body parts are totally secondary." I dunno, maybe that just makes me a 3, but I don't feel like a 3. Uh, but this isn't about my issues. :P On the flipside of the "Hello! Gay now!" thing in fic (which yes, it always irritated me that Willow's relationship with Oz was reduced to a nonentity post-Tara, and I've always interpreted Willow as bi...ish), though, nothing throws me out like a break in the narration to tell you something like "Harry realised he was bisexual sometime in 5th year..." I mean, I guess it's just a nonissue for me, or possibly I've just read so much slash that it doesn't faze me that a character's canonically straight. I don't even see all that much stuff where it's explained away. It's just kind of there for a lot of what I read. *wanders away still thinking, smacks into pole* (Reply to this) (Thread)

	Re: in from metafandom scavgraphics 2007-08-08 08:58 pm UTC (link)
	if you wander around smacking poles, I don't think you'd be a 3:) (Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: in from metafandom - logophilos, 2007-08-08 11:56 pm UTC

Re: in from metafandom - incunabulist, 2007-08-09 03:20 am UTC

Re: in from metafandom - tamerterra, 2007-08-09 05:17 pm UTC

Re: in from metafandom - alixtii, 2007-08-10 01:30 am UTC

	umbo 2007-08-08 09:39 pm UTC (link)
	Here from metafandom, and just have to say that Tim Bayliss predated Jack Harkness as an openly bisexual character by almost ten years--Closet Cases, the Homicide episode where he admitted being attracted to men as well as women, aired in early 1998, and in the United States. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	logophilos 2007-08-08 11:57 pm UTC (link)
	So that makes two :) (Reply to this) (Parent)

elspethdixon 2007-08-08 09:59 pm UTC (link)

Personally, as a bisexual fangirl, I tend to believe that most characters have the potential to be bisexual to some degree or another (blah, blah, Kinsey scale, etc.) -- who I ship them with depends on who I feel (from my reading of canon) they're the most emotionally invested in. So I'm as likely to ship het as slash (though my current OTP is slash: Iron Man/Captain America). And in some cases (as when I wrote historical RPS for Tombstone), I have both a het and a slash OTP for a character. There are some characters that read as totally straight or totally gay to me, but most of the slash pairings I currently write I do write as bi: it's hard to reconcile canonical ex-girlfriends/wives/etc. otherwise. And yet I still run into the "but you can't make them gay, they've slept with women in canon!" argument. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	logophilos 2007-08-08 11:58 pm UTC (link)
	And yet I still run into the "but you can't make them gay, they've slept with women in canon!" argument. Yep. Makes me wonder what planet people live on. Planet Phobe, perhaps? (Reply to this) (Parent)

	embroiderama 2007-08-08 10:08 pm UTC (link)
	I love this post and its comments--lots of interesting reading. I can't say that I did a good job with this in the past, when I was more in the one-true-love camp, but I've been thinking about this issue with my more recent slashing, and I think it really helps with characterization. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	logophilos 2007-08-09 12:04 am UTC (link)
	Cool! (Reply to this) (Parent)

Here from metafandom nymphaea1 2007-08-08 10:29 pm UTC (link)

This is a subject that I've been thinking about a lot lately, and it's been bothering me a great deal. I've seen some people above defending my primary fandom, SGA, but I really cannot agree with that defense and honestly on the whole find it worse when it comes to any kind of queer sexuality than any other fandom I've participated in. I think it's part of a larger problem fandom has with queer male sexuality in general. Probably the best was SV, where Lex was generally written as so sexual in general he had lots of parners, male, female, groups of both, etc. And the better writers did seem to acknowledge Clark's physical attraction to women. Whereas with SGA, I cannot nearly say the same thing. I don't know if you're familiar with the show or fandom, but the main male character, John Sheppard, has in canon shown attraction to more than one woman, and yet in meta he's often described as being "so very, very gay". The proof for this is generally based on some pretty limiting if not outright offensive stereotypes--i.e. what straight man has candles? It's treated pretty much as a joke, and I don't find much to defend there. Even where it's acknowleged that he's had attractions to women, it's written as a desperate beard to cover up his true uber gayness either to the wide world or himself. I find that tone fairly misogynistic, really, as if he'd be more enlightened and a better man if only he'd give up those disgusting women in favor of the pure love of cock. Someone above said Rodney is written as more bisexual, which is true, but some of the meta that accompanies this isn't any less problematic for me. There's a fair amount of what seems to me to be fairly defensive argument that of course he's the straighter one. In stories, he's more often written as the top, he's the dominant one in d/s stories, he's emotionally generally more together, he's some kind of freaky sex god, etc. All of which individually might not be a problem at all, but when you factor in the fact that he's fandom's general best beloved and you elide the need to see him as straighter with the desire to also see him more in control, happier and just all around better as compared to the "gay" one, it does make me distinctly uncomfortable. (Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Here from metafandom logophilos 2007-08-09 12:13 am UTC (link)

Funny, I've always seen Rodney as written as the more gay one - as in, no sexual history with women at all (crush on Sam, Katie Brown, la la la, can't hear you, kind of thing) - but also the one more likely to identify himself as bi. WHich is odd, as I've said above, because in canon he's just completely clueless about sex and people, is extremely prudish, and possibly a little homophobic. I don't read him as being shown as straighter at all, but yes he's usually shown as dominant - I assumed that because in the show, he's a pushy little sod :) Making him emotionally competent - I'm sorry, you have to laugh. Rodney....sporfle. I've read it as you have, but seriously...Rodney's emotionally competent? Yeah, and Ronon's effusive! I've also thought a lot of the supposed 'canon' support for John's gayness to be rather bizarre too because he comes across as almost too stereotypically masculine at times - won't talk about his feelings, likes Johnny Cash (a man's man if ever there was one), likes golf and hunting and flying, thinks with his dick when it's not really very sensible to do that (The Tower anyone?) and so on. It's like slashers are saying, yeah, but, he doesn't scratch his balls in public and stare at Teyla's breasts all the time, so he *must* be gay, which, as you say, is offensive. I've not read a single story where John's canon females are treated as anything other than conniving bitches, even the ex-wife who hasn't even *appeared*. Makes John look fucking stupid, apart from anything else. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Here from metafandom - nymphaea1, 2007-08-11 02:38 pm UTC

chasingtides 2007-08-08 11:04 pm UTC (link)

Oooh. Thank you for this post. I'd love to read more slash with bisexuals personally. But I do think there are a couple obstacle, some of which, in my point of view, are fairly serious and dependent on plot lines and some which depend upon the writer's view. 1. Do bisexuals really exist? (Identifying as bisexual, I believe they do, but plenty of people don't and if you don't think they exist, you can't write about them. 2. Are you writing about an OTP? If you are, you might not want to write about other relationships - at all. Ever. Even in reference. At this point unless your character says, at some point, "By the way, chicks are hot" you're not really going to say, "Aha, Rosencrantz is bisexual!" On this note, bisexuals might be hard to write if you're trying to make that one pairing your focus - how do you do it without making that partner seem disloyal? (Although, in my head, Remus and Tonk are quite possibly utterly bi and might have the best potentials for that exposition.) 3. Sometimes it might be hard to wrap your mind around someone liking both genders. Many people tend to think that everyone is straight or gay (even if they do think bisexuals exist, it might not be at the forefront of their thoughts), and thus intuitively have their character only checking out one gender. As for your widowed husband example, I usually take those characters as implicitly bisexual. I often read slash where the characters aren't shouting from the rooftops, "I'm gay!" or het where they need to tell everyone they're straight. They just happen to love whom they love. And we understand that it is slash (and maybe they have issues with "Oh my god, I like dick," but it isn't always verbalised as, "oh my god, I'm gay!"). So when a man who has perhaps canonically loved a woman, falls for a man, I think to myself, hey, he's bi, and then I move on. And vice versa for a woman. Bisexuality doesn't need to be explored to exist. (Reply to this) (Thread)

logophilos 2007-08-09 12:16 am UTC (link)

Bisexuality doesn't need to be explored to exist I think it has to be *acknowledged* to exist. If there's an assumption a character is bi, but they don't *act* in a way which confirms that - i.e. they don't self-label, they don't show attraction to both sexes, acknowledge they have an attraction to both sexes - then all you have is Suddenly Gay and no explanation. People keep saying you can't acknowledge that one half of a same-sex pairing can still have an attraction to the opposite sex without intruding on romance. Sure you can. I've done it. Lovers having casual conversations about their past loves. Making jokes about breasts. It's easy - it's also realistic. That what people do, regardless of orientation, so why should it not happen in fic? (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - chasingtides, 2007-08-09 12:23 am UTC

---