rayden54 ([info]rayden54) wrote in [info]thesaxons,
@ 2007-10-03 15:28:00
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Marriage? Domestic Abuse? Possible Spoiler for TLOTTL
Question: Cut for possible spoilers

Does everyone here believe that the change in Lucy Saxon was due to domestic abuse by The Master.

Or are there alternate theories?

Personally, I think it's possible that simply seeing the suffering up close [she was pretty far away from most of it on the Valiant] over the Year That Never Was could account for some of it.

"But what about the bruise?" You might ask. Again, it's possible that someone tried to assualt her because she supports Saxon, or tried to abduct her for some reason-maybe to try to get the Master to release someone or maybe to try [again] to "make her see reason." In other words, there are other possible people who could have given her a black eye (and probably several people that wanted to), and most of them could explain the personality differences.

Question 2: Why do you think The Master married (Lucy or otherwise)?

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[info]frelling_tralk
2007-10-03 11:32 pm UTC (link)
Hmm I think the bruise was meant to be down to the Master, when he hits the Doctor she looks really freaked out, and touches the bruise so.. I think that things changed for them once he was no longer Harry, the Master became a lot more unbalanced and sadistic once he was in charge of everything, and with no opposition from the Doctor.


Lucy's mental damage seemed mostly down to the Master taking her to see the final humans I thought

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[info]rayden54
2007-10-03 11:36 pm UTC (link)
Maybe I should watch the last episode before I comment.

Still, it doesn't preclude the possibility.

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[info]simply_lily
2007-10-05 12:48 pm UTC (link)
I don't think the writers would have put such a blatant bruise on her face and not explain it, if it was something that another person did to her. The abuse is also evident by the way she's almost shaking when she puts on his jacket, and I didn't notice she touched her bruise when the Doctor was hit, but that seems like a sign as well.

And I think her mental damage was seeing the last humans, being tied down to a scary maniacal alien who destroyed most of the population and at any point could do it to her, the physical abuse, and I wouldn't put the mental abuse past him. (Or maybe that's too much fanfic...)

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[info]13_tezcatlipoca
2007-10-04 12:06 am UTC (link)
I don't think that the change you talk about is solely related to domestic abuse. I would easily attribute the bruise to the Master, but her ...disjointedness and apathy I would put down to the effects of seeing the entire universe, and humanity along with it, about to come to an end with no salvation. Oh, and then what was left of humanity being turned into the toclophane (sp?)--you can't tell me that was a painless process any more than being "upgraded" by the Cybermen--not to mention the fact that she's spent an entire year being that close with the Master who would probably enjoy working on breaking her mind in his spare time.

As for marriage, I'd say initially it was probably for political credibility. But he does seem to want her close, even for twisted, perverted reasons. The dynamics of their relationship are endlessly fascinating to me, actually.

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[info]rayden54
2007-10-11 12:36 am UTC (link)
Is there really anything in the show that suggests "twisted, perverted" things?

The toclophane (sp?) seem more like the Daleks to me somehow. Maybe it's just because of the irony. The Master ran away from the Daleks only to team up with something so similar. I doubt wouldn't have ended well.

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[info]david_macgowan
2007-12-02 11:34 am UTC (link)
the Master's suggestion that Lucy and the massaging maid/servant could "get to know each other" had a touch of the twisted about it

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[info]ryelle33
2007-10-04 12:54 am UTC (link)
I wrote a bit about her change in attitude in TLotTL vs SoD here. One of the things I mentioned was abuse, but I also gave 2ish other reasons for her change in attitude.

and Q2... I never really thought about it. I mean, they're both slightly (or more than slightly) crazy, and she enjoys taking over the world just as much as he does in Sound of Drums... I think initially the marriage was political, but soon the Master discovered that he liked having her as a companion.

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[info]notfromvenus
2007-10-04 05:53 am UTC (link)
Does everyone here believe that the change in Lucy Saxon was due to domestic abuse by The Master.

That was definitely part of it, yeah. Though I'm sure that just generally seeing the awful stuff the Master was doing and what he was really like, and seeing the fate of humanity at the end of the universe were also pretty traumatic.

Why do you think The Master married (Lucy or otherwise)?

Well, he probably wanted a wife because that looks good for a politician, and he wanted someone to admire and adore him. But why Lucy specifically? That's another question. He did seem genuinely fond of and attracted to her, in his own twisted way.

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[info]sonormalithurts
2007-10-04 09:25 pm UTC (link)
I tried making sense of the bruise and ended up thinking about it way too much. My final conclusion was that the domestic abuse went both ways, Lucy smacked the Master around too. How I reasoned my way to that, I'm not quite sure. But it sounds good to me.

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[info]simply_lily
2007-10-05 12:53 pm UTC (link)
Regarding the marriage - I believe our two similar Time Lords like to have a human around them, to balance them, to share with them, to care for and be cared for, to enlighten and be enlightened, or love, or whatever their motive are for each Companion. But that the Master took the step the Doctor would never take and actually made it, well... all sexy and evil with the tongues. I think the marriage was political, but that the Master loved having Lucy around.

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[info]rayden54
2007-10-06 02:27 am UTC (link)
So your not one of those people...
Remember on the beach scene, when Rose said there was going to be a baby Tyler, and The Doctor said, "You're not..."? Well, there's a group of people (Doctor/Rose 'shippers mostly) who think he asked because maybe he thought it might be his...er...

Do you really think that the Master needed to get married in order to win the election, or do you think he would've won anyway? I'm leaning toward the latter, and if that's true, it weakens the political argument just a bit.

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[info]simply_lily
2007-10-06 06:53 pm UTC (link)
No, I think he just liked the image, or even just the idea. It's not like he needed her for the election, what with the brain washing and all. Besides, I'd totally vote for him either way. I don't know, now that you say it, I think he just felt like marrying her, so he did. He's the Master, I wouldn't put anything by him. Why would he need to make the Doctor old and ugly? What was the point in that?

About the beach scene - I'm the kind of people who don't think they were having sex (or, er, looming), because no one in this show has sex. It's a sexless show (sadly). Even Jack is all talk.

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[info]rayden54
2007-10-07 01:42 am UTC (link)
What about The Master? No Dancing for him either?

Ya know, it just occured to me, in Utopia that kid told Martha that "The Sky is full of diamonds" or something to that effect. It was repeated by the captured Troclafane (sp?) in The Last of the Time Lords.

It's a rather odd phrase isn't it. "The Sky is full of diamonds." Unless you mean that song: Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds.

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[info]taraljc
2007-10-09 04:59 pm UTC (link)
I think there is no doubt that the Saxons had a physical relationship. And that it's a darker mirror of the Ninth Doctor and Rose's relationship in the first series.

While there was never any sexual chemistry between Rose and the Tenth Doctor, I think that the Ninth Doctor's relationship with her is based very strongly on need, and I saw the Sixth Master has having that same kind of desperate need, bourne out of his experiences in the Time War. The difference then between them is that even tho the Ninth Doctor might have had impure thoughts, the Sixth Master is the one who would act on those impulses, and it would never occur to him not to, just as it would never occur to the Doctor to act on them.

As for what broke Lucy, I think she was a little broken to begin with. That's part of why the Master married her. And before the Doctor showed up, she and the Master had a partnership. She didn't have to share him. But once the Master had the Doctor, he doesn't need her anymore expect as a prop. She lost him bit by bit, and that left room for the horror of her world to break her completely. But I think at the root of it, what poisoned her mind was love. And I still believe she killed the Master out of love, not hatred. Because she only pulls the trigger after the Doctor tells the Master he plans on keeping him in a cage.

(And being me, I ended up exploring this in fanfic more than meta because that's how I'm wired)

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[info]rayden54
2007-10-10 11:31 pm UTC (link)
Read the fics and the question post, and now I have a question for you: Do you think The Master meant to break Lucy or that it just happened as a result of being with him.

Because, oddly enough, traveling with the Doctor can sorta break people. It happened to SJS and Reinette and probably Rose too.

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[info]taraljc
2007-10-11 12:08 am UTC (link)
I think he didn't mean to break Lucy, but also he didn't really notice because by then, he had become obsessed with breaking the Doctor. Lucy was off his radar except as a prop and a symbol...

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[info]rayden54
2007-10-11 12:10 am UTC (link)
Wierd that it hurt her more to be ignored by him than for him to pay attention to her. With the sort of person he is you'd think it'd be the other way around.

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[info]edzel2
2009-06-20 04:50 pm UTC (link)
Interesting questions, rayden54.Have you now seen Last of the Time Lords, and if so, what do you think now?
Personally my take on it was that the Domestic Abuse was certainly part of what broke her, in conjunction with seeing the end of the universe. You only need to see how she replies to the Master's 'I took Lucy to the end of the universe, didn't I, Lucy? Tell him (the Doctor) what you saw.' and the way she says 'I saw everything... dying...' etc clearly shows that she couldn't handle the knowledge of how everything ends.

I think the reason he took a human wife was a game of one-upmanship on the Doctor... because the Master has never really had regular companions before, he's tended to be a bit of loner who picks up and drops alliances as it suits (or doesn't) his purpose at the time... usually he gets it all wrong and is defeated by the Doctor, yet still he seeks him out ('I've been laying traps for you...'). So the need seems to be more the Masters' than the Doctors, but the Doctor always seems to be in denial of some sort or another...

Getting back to Master/Lucy -your comment about 'the skies are full of diamonds' and 'lucy in the sky with diamonds' is especially interesting in light of some possible spoilers (not confirmed btw so it remains to be seen whether it may just be speculation) over on DWF and Gallifrey Base... !!! I won't say any more here in case of spoilering anyone who doesn't want it but if you're interested then I'd check it out.

Re whether the Master needed Lucy to win the election - well, he probably reviewed Earth history and decided that it couldn't hurt his cause, would make Saxon more plausible and he could have some fun at the same time... and yes, the remark he makes about Lucy and the girl he has give him a massage on the Valiant flight deck is definitely meant to be adult in tone, and gives you a pretty good idea what the Saxons get up to in their quarters...! The fact that he has Lucy dress like a gangster's moll when previously she was more a 'twin set and pearls' kind of girl (from a privileged background, also) says a lot too. I have to be honest and say that I can't see Lucy smacking the Master around at all - she's way too intimidated, and possibly off her head on something!

I'm going to check out the linked fics now - always hungry for more Master/Lucy or Master/Doctor for that matter...

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