laryna6 ([info]laryna6) wrote in [info]talesoftheabyss,
@ 2008-07-08 22:40:00
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Current mood: sad

Contamination Sidequest Event 4 Script
This is the event that (probably) determines a key aspect of the ending. The second and third events of the subquest, the beginning and ending of the Sync battle in Eldrant, and a skit that follows the battle also underline Jade and Dist's conclusions in this scene. I can head over to the Ant Lion Man in Keterberg for the skit player to re-watch that skit, and check out my save files to see if they're anywhere near the other events, but I thought I'd post this. There's a description of how to get this scene and the previous ones, plus summaries, in this faq: http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/ps2/file/929343/42107

Contimination Sidequest Event Four:

Requirements –
Previous events, defeating Nebilim, visiting Peony & Tritheim. Then, go to enter Malkuth Military HQ.

Jade: I’m sorry, I have something important to tell Dist, so please wait outside.
Guy: Is it something you don’t want us to hear?
Jade: No, it’s not that… I’m going to inform him about Asch.
Natalia: …I see. I’ll wait outside.
Luke: …Me too.
Tear: Then let’s all wait together.
Anise: Yeah.
Jade: Thank you. (enters)

Dist: …What do you want Have you come to laugh at the pathetic sight of your old friend?
Jade: Asch has died.
Dist: ! The Big Bang?
Jade: …If you’re asking that, I presume that means it was nearly time for Asch’s big bang?
Dist: Yes, and if you’re asking that, then it sounds like you’re saying Asch’s death was not caused by the big bang effect.
Jade: Correct. I see even you are intelligent enough to figure that out.
Dist: …Regardless of what caused his death, at this point in time, we can assume that the big bang had begun.
Jade: …It may not have begun.
Dist: What is that supposed to mean?! You’re the one who finalized the theories on perfect isofons! Do you not believe your own research?! The Jade that I knew—Jade the Golden Child—isn’t someone who would say something like that!
Jade: Please don’t give me disturbing nicknames.
Dist: Or is that replica that important to you? More than your best friend, Saphir?!
Jade: The dust on the floor has value compared to you.
Dist: Listen, Jade. The contamination effect cannot be prevented. Even with your talent.
Jade: I know that. You’re speaking to the person who failed to revive the dead. Fate cannot be changed.
(silence)
Dist: …His memories will remain.
Jade: No, nothing but his memories will remain.

(Jade is outside)
Luke: What’s with that face, Jade? Something wrong?
Jade: Hmm? I was born with this face. It’s the handsome face of a pensive man, wouldn’t you say?
All: (black squiggle thought bubble thing)
Luke: …Hah hah. That’s what I get for worrying about you.

End scene.

Right before (and after) the Sync battle, Luke does talk about feeling Asch's presence enter him as he died and that it is that presence that allows him to do the special hyperresonance thing that disables Sync's trap.

So, unless something happened that even Jade couldn't predict (and, as you can see, he really does want to save Luke), the game's epilogue features Asch with Luke's memories. Some say that Asch's hand moved on its own right near the ending says that Asch might have been brought back from Lorelei and that the fact that Lorelei appeared as two lights around then might mean that both Luke and Lorelei headed for the fon belt... but this is a job for fanfic, methinks.

*saves game and returns to writing some*

Edit: Transcribed the relevant skit.

Skit #403 Asch’s Death

Occurs after Sync battle in Eldrant, #403 if you want to look it up with the Ant Lion Man in Keterberg.

Luke: Asch… How could you die like that...? I just…never thought that you would die…
Natalia: Asch… I wish I could have seen you one more time…
Guy: Yeah… The rest of us never did see him on Eldrant.
Jade: Luke, I know this is a painful question, but… How did Asch die?
Luke: …Surrounded by Oracle soldiers, with swords thrust though his body..
Natalia: …Asch! (leaves skit)
Jade: Did you feel anything enter you after that?
Luke: Now that you mention it…there was a feeling like something warm falling onto me…
Jade: …Did you feel anything leave you?
Luke: Huh? Well, when Asch died I felt a little weak, but other than that…
Jade: I see….
Guy: What was that about Jade?
Jade: ..Nothing… Nothing at all…

Skit ends.

*sighs* My difficulty with expressions is acting up. (I’m an Aspie, someone with Asperger Syndrome, which is in the high-functioning Autism category, meaning I don’t speak nonverbal all that fluently.) Jade’s expression in the first nothing was the one where his head’s tilted to the viewer’s righ, with his eyes closed and his hand adjusting his glasses, then there’s the ‘I’m fine’ expression during the end of that last line.

It seems to be pretty clearly an attempt on Jade's part to cover up the fact that Guy noticed something (Guy was frowning during his last line), but these aren’t voiced and as I said I’m bad at facial expressions.


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[info]barrelgoddess
2008-07-09 06:29 am UTC (link)
So, unless something happened that even Jade couldn't predict (and, as you can see, he really does want to save Luke), the game's epilogue features Asch with Luke's memories.

I personally think it's the other way around. There was another discussion somewhere else in the game, where Jade says that Luke has a habit of surprising him/doing the unexpected, and that he hopes he "proves him wrong". He doesn't say what, precisely, he wants to be proven wrong about, but hey, that's Jade for you. XD And then in the ending, we have three things -

- First, the camera pans to Tear after the line "I made a promise to somebody." If it was Asch, it would've gone to Natalia.

- Then, after that, Jade looks relieved. Why? Because Luke did exactly what he wanted and proved him wrong - a reverse contamination effect occurred, largely because Asch's Big Bang had not yet started.

- We also see this person carrying their sword where Luke did, as Luke fights left-handed and Asch fights right-handed.

So, yeah, I firmly believe that that's Luke in the ending.

Edited at 2008-07-09 06:33 am UTC

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[info]laryna6
2008-07-09 07:08 am UTC (link)
Yes, that's event three, right before this. Jade says he HOPES, and yet a bit later he shuts Dist down when Dist tries to say there's still hope to make Jade feel better.

And a lot of players would have missed this quest. I think that bit with the panning might be either:
a) allowing people who want to believe it was Luke to do so, like some people believed Chihiro kept her memories despite hints in the end of Spirited Away who didn't pay attention/look up the interview with Miyazaki
b) showing Tear's hope that this is Luke

As for Jade looking relieved, I wouldn't agree with you but I'm not the best judge of facial expression.

Regardless of whose mind it is, that was Luke's BODY, and thus would have his handedness.

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[info]akatokuro
2008-07-09 07:10 am UTC (link)
Personally, I saw Jade's comments here not as foreshadowing about Luke's unexpected survival, but rather as showing how far he himself had come in his character development - the soldier who self-confessedly doesn't really understand the significance of death, now wanting so badly to believe someone he cared about has a chance.

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(no subject) - [info]laryna6, 2008-07-09 07:23 am UTC

[info]barrelgoddess
2008-07-09 07:50 am UTC (link)
Honesty compels me to admit that I don't know how anyone could interpret it as being Asch in the ending. XD;;;

- The aforementioned conversation between Jade and Luke. It's foreshadowing of Luke circumventing what Jade expects to happen. Additionally, Jade makes sure to ask about the specifics of how Asch died in a skit after Asch's death - because dying in battle is very different from merely fading away.

- Jade's expression - he smiles, and then sighs in relief. It's just like Jade not to run in for a group hug, anyway. XD

- Again, the pan to Tear - as soon as he says "I promised someone." It's a visual confirmation that he's referring to his promise to Tear.

- Moreover, he shows up for the first time in so long at Tataroo Valley - I think the choice of locale is deliberate, as he and Tear wound up there in the beginning of the game, and reunite there in the ending. A complete circle.

- The camera slowly pans upward over the sword's placement, just as the wind blows his cloak away to clearly show it. That was done very purposefully.

Edited at 2008-07-09 07:52 am UTC

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
(no subject) - [info]laryna6, 2008-07-09 07:57 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]barrelgoddess, 2008-07-09 08:16 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]laryna6, 2008-07-09 08:28 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]akatokuro, 2008-07-09 08:31 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]akatokuro, 2008-07-09 08:03 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]laryna6, 2008-07-09 08:34 am UTC

[info]modorenai
2008-07-09 02:04 pm UTC (link)
As for Jade looking relieved, I wouldn't agree with you but I'm not the best judge of facial expression.

Although personally I'd like to believe that the guy in the end is a Luke-Asche amalgamation but dominantly Luke, and so I'd prefer to see Jade's expression as being happy/relieved, I agree that Jade's expression has been so carefully drawn by the animators that it can really be interpreted either way.

I think it was brilliantly evil of Team Abyss to be so careful about giving the ending such ambiguity so that fans could decide what end they wanted. (I say evil because although I like the ending and a part of me likes the ambiguity, the other part of me that loves happy endings wants Asche to be alive for Natalia's sake too. i_i)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
(no subject) - [info]laryna6, 2008-07-09 02:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]modorenai, 2008-07-09 09:46 pm UTC

[info]akatokuro
2008-07-09 07:08 am UTC (link)
I'm not sure why, if the person in the ending was Asch, so many people think the "promise" referenced must have been the one with Natalia. I thought it was perfectly obvious that the promise referenced was the one he made with Luke, that he would live.

Jade's expression struck me as sorrowful. He's the only one who hung back from the reunion, after all - so I really think that one is up for debate.

I absolutely think the person who returned was Asch, myself, but the game as a whole is far more meaningful to me personally with that reading.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]laryna6
2008-07-09 07:09 am UTC (link)
Yeah, I read his expression as sorrowful.

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[info]sagesoren
2008-07-10 01:36 am UTC (link)
Oh, true... I was going to say something about the promise myself. Tear knew it was directed at her, since doesn't her tear fall right after he says that?

The sword thing kind of cements it for me.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]barrelgoddess
2008-07-10 04:27 am UTC (link)
Yeah, it does. As soon as he says that, the camera goes right to her, the tear slips down her cheek, and she rushes forward. Then it cuts to the rest of the group, all of whom start forward as well. Save for Jade, who's not the touchy-feely, group-huggy type - it'd be out of character. XD He smiles, and sighs, looking relieved and happy.

And yeah, the sword was just icing on the cake - there's no way they would've shown that so deliberately and not meant for it to be a clue as to his identity.

Edited at 2008-07-10 04:27 am UTC

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
(no subject) - [info]akatokuro, 2008-07-10 03:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]barrelgoddess, 2008-07-10 05:01 pm UTC

[info]barrelgoddess
2008-07-09 05:00 pm UTC (link)
Having watched both the skit and the ending again this morning, my stance remains the same. Jade doesn't think that Luke will be the one to stick around, despite his desire for him to do just that, so when he sees him in the ending, he looks happy and relieved that Luke did, in fact, prove him wrong. The sidequest seems to me to be a way of explaining the contamination effect in detail, and why Jade looks relieved in the ending, but YMMV, I guess. I took in all of it as saying that Luke will probably fade away and bring Asch back... but then we get the stuff about the Big Bang not starting and Jade wanting to be proven wrong that tosses a question mark onto it, and I think the answer is in the look on Jade's face in the ending - he's glad to be wrong, for once.

(As for it being obscure... I don't think that that's too fair an argument, since they made a LOT of subquests obscure, with no hint given to you in-game about their existence, and obscenely short windows of opportunity. This is actually a design flaw, one I've seen others complain about, and was carried over from Symphonia. I hope they do something about that in future Tales games.)

I think that every clue in the ending points to it being Luke; and I don't see any evidence that that's meant to deceive us. Not in the shots, not in the dialogue, not in the music, hell, even the voice sounds more like Luke than like Asch(Yuri Lowenthal did a great job of making them sound similar, yet distinctly different at the same time). I don't see why it would immediately pan to Tear when he said his promise line if it wasn't referring to the promise Luke made to Tear to come back; I don't see why she would run over to Asch or why he would let her. I don't see why Asch would carry his sword like Luke or why they'd so deliberately show it. Choosing the same location as a place to begin and end things is nicely cyclical. And you never know, they might have actually wanted a happy ending to it all, at least for one person. It's not that unusual. (Asch's memories will live on in Luke, anyway, and he died having accepted the identity he'd been convinced for the ENTIRE GAME had been stolen from him. The fight with Luke showed him that nothing had been "stolen", because Luke was someone else entirely - whether or not he went on as Asch or Luke was up to him, and no one else. His replica, for once, was irrelevant to his choice. That's not being "coldly shunted aside".)

But hey, that's just my two cents on the matter. I know I'm not going to convince anyone who firmly believes I'm wrong and doesn't want to listen at all, but I just wanted it out there. ^^

Edited at 2008-07-09 08:10 pm UTC

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[info]laryna6
2008-07-09 09:51 pm UTC (link)
I don't firmly believe you're wrong and I am listening, but I'm still not convinced. I picked up from several cues the 'something's not right here' thing in the ending, and this explains it.

As I said, we're probably going to have to agree to disagree.

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[info]sistaofpeace1
2008-07-09 10:15 pm UTC (link)
Don't have to convince me, I fully agree.

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[info]sistaofpeace1
2008-07-09 09:52 pm UTC (link)
Right before (and after) the Sync battle, Luke does talk about feeling Asch's presence enter him as he died and that it is that presence that allows him to do the special hyperresonance thing that disables Sync's trap.

And in the second scene, doesn't it talk about how the ORIGINAL felt something flow into him before he came back to life? In Luke's case, that's not what happens at all.

Anyway...I fully believe it's still Luke in the ending. Yeah I was rather confused when I first read those scenes, but after seeing how DIFFERENT everything ended up happening compared to Dist's original theory, I really can't see how it's Asch who's alive. I have my own theory on this, so I'll just copy/paste it here.

I guess I'll explain the contamination effect first for those not aware of it...and since it's pretty damn confusing. The contamination effect is a process where an original perfect isofon actually goes through gradual fonon separation, resulting in his death...however, instead of fully dying, he actually absorbs his (live) replica back into his body, which consequently results in the original coming back to life and the replica himself dying. This is explained in the contamination sidequest, where the cheagle you saved from Ortion Cavern, Star, explains what happened to him. He was actually the original perfect isofon in an experiment, and he tells Jade that he remembers "dying," then coming back to life, and that his replica cheagle was no longer there. When Asch had gone to the cavern, he thought the original cheagle had actually died, and this was the main reason why Asch kept saying he "had no time left." What Asch overlooked, however, is that he had the "upper hand" in being able to come back alive after "dying."

Now, this is the main reason a lot of people think it's very possible that Asch was the one who came back, solely because Asch DID in fact die, and we see his hand move right before the credits start rolling. BUUUUUTTTT, as we saw, Asch didn't die through fonon separation, and instead, became a pin cushion. And there's a crucial detail in all this: Why is it SO important that the original go through fonon separation in order to come back alive? Simply put, your body cannot absorb anything if it's not in the proper state to begin with. This is THE VERY REASON Luke had absorbed the Jewel of Lorelei into his body and Asch didn't absorb the Sword, because since Luke was a replica, his fonons were already easily separable to begin with.

Fast forward to the events at the Tower of Rem...as we later found out, Luke himself now starts going through gradual fonon separation...hmmm, where have we heard this before? I'll keep that on hold for now...let's go to the events when Asch actually dies. Luke clearly tells Jade that he felt something "flow into his body," namely, Asch's hyperresonance. Now, in the contamination sidequest, Star told Jade that he also felt something "flow into him" before he came back to life...and Jade said earlier in the game that only perfect isofons have the means of creating a hyperresonance when they interact with each other.

(continued)

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[info]laryna6
2008-07-09 10:00 pm UTC (link)
The original felt something flow into him? Wouldn't that be contradicted by the fact the original ended up in the replica's cage/body? Perhaps what Luke felt as being flowed into Asch might have felt as something flowing into him. Flowing together?

Again, the cheagle that they find is in the cage the replica was in, not the one the original was in. Also, Dist says that cause of death doesn't matter once the process starts in the scene above.

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[info]sistaofpeace1
2008-07-09 10:03 pm UTC (link)
Uhh, read the scene again. Jade asks him if he is an original, and he says yes.

And yeah, the cheagle was in the replica cage, that's why Asch thought he was going to die. But Jade finds out what really happened.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
(no subject) - [info]laryna6, 2008-07-09 10:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sistaofpeace1, 2008-07-09 10:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]coil, 2008-07-10 01:30 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]laryna6, 2008-07-10 02:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]coil, 2008-07-11 01:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sistaofpeace1, 2008-07-11 03:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]coil, 2008-07-13 03:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]laryna6, 2008-07-13 03:33 pm UTC

[info]sistaofpeace1
2008-07-09 09:53 pm UTC (link)
You might say at this point that Asch still has the upper hand because he's the original and Luke is still just a replica. Well, by the end of the game, I don't think this is necessarily the case. Even though it's not fully explained, it seems to me that hyperresonances (namely, second-order ones) have another power that does something to its user. And note that Jade himself even said that the theory behind the second-order hyperresonance was not fully established. Go back to when Jade was first telling Luke about how to erase the miasma:

Jade: Have you forgotten? You're a replica, unable to fully control your hyperresonance.

The main point to note here is that because of the mere fact that Luke is a replica, he cannot fully control something like his hyperresonance on his own. This is also the main reason why Luke didn't feel like he was in control of what was happening when he triggered the hyperresonance on Akzeriuth (if you recall, Van seemed to use a kind of "trigger phrase").

But when Luke received the second-order hyperresonance:

Luke: ...It was like when I destroyed Akzeriuth... But I think I can actually control it...

Like, whoa, where did that come from? Isn't he NOT supposed to be able to control things like that? So what exactly did it do to him?

Fast-forward to the final battle with Van:

Van: Second-order hyperresonance...You've surpassed your original. You are now a true human being.

Whoa, whoa wait, is this seriously Van talking? The one who literally threw away Luke like garbage solely because he was an "inferior product"? And wait, now he's calling Luke a true human being? Is he, like, for real?

Luke: I finally understand what it is I wanted. I wanted you to acknowledge me. To accept me as a human being, not a replica.
Van: Yes. And you have become a human being.

And he even restates it again. Now is Van just pulling that stuff out of his ass? Well uhh, considering that Van has proven to have extensive knowledge regarding replicas and hyperresonances (he was the one who triggered the artificial hyperresonance on Hod), I would seriously be surprised if he was. He's not one to mince words; he says things exactly as he sees them. Point I'm trying to make: by the end of the game, Luke has already proven that he's evolved into something that's not just a mere "replica."

And what better way for a replica to overcome the contamination effect than for his original to give him exactly what he needs to be able to do that? (whether it was intentional or not is an entirely different matter) Furthermore, if Asch came back solely because he was the original and with absolutely no regards to Luke's efforts at all, it would be going against precisely what Asch wants.

Finally at the very end of the game, when we see Asch's hand moves...if Luke's only way to survive is to come back through the contamination effect, then Asch HAS to be alive somehow, just like how the original cheagle absorbed his fully-alive replica. But in this case...it's Luke who has both hyperresonances, is going through fonon separation and Asch's body is pretty much solid...and made "alive." The tables are pretty much turned. [Now, as to HOW Asch was made alive...my theory on this is that since he was in contact with Luke's seventh fonons as Luke's body was separating, Asch's body was inadvertently healed in the process. But as I just explained, Asch's live body was pretty much to help Luke live.]

I know people say that Asch coming back gives an interesting “twist” to everything that happened…but what about the fact that virtually everything in the game was about Luke realizing slowly about why he still had a right to live? He wasn’t able to understand this until the VERY end of the game, and EVERYONE in the party wouldn’t take “sacrifice” on Luke’s part for an answer. That would just pretty much throw everyone’s efforts out in the window, even Asch’s. Sorry, but that’s just too fucked up of an ending, especially for a Tales title. Call it cliché if you want, but it makes ten times more sense overall, which I’ll take any day of the goddamn week.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]laryna6
2008-07-09 10:03 pm UTC (link)
What does second-order have to do with the Big Bang? They're utterly different. Second-order is a solely scion of Lorelei phenomenon, Big Bang is all replicas. Saying that something occurred with one isn't necessarily going to effect the other. Logic hole's ruining your argument here.

As for Van, he's acknowledging that Luke has an identity, not saying he's going to survive the Bang. Again, N/A.

And since when does this game care about what people want?

No, the original cheagle did not absorb his replica. Other way around.

But it looks like we're going to have to agree to disagree.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]sistaofpeace1
2008-07-09 10:10 pm UTC (link)
Exactly, they don't tell us what exactly the second-order hyperresonance does because then that'd practically give away what actually happened. But to say that the hyperresonance didn't actually DO something to Luke would be overlooking some pretty glaring statements. He actually felt STABLE, full of control.

As for Van, he's acknowledging that Luke has an identity, not saying he's going to survive the Bang. Again, N/A.

He acknowledges Luke (physically) AS SOON AS he realizes he had the second-order hyperresonance. Coincidence? He had already told Luke before that he had "underestimated" him; this is an entirely different level that Van never discussed.

And since when does this game care about what people want?

The ending is usually seen as the anchor to a game/story's overall message.

No, the original cheagle did not absorb his replica. Other way around.

If you don't see it that way, well, that's pretty much the basis of what actually happened. Can't help you on that.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
(no subject) - [info]laryna6, 2008-07-09 10:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sistaofpeace1, 2008-07-09 10:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]laryna6, 2008-07-09 10:55 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sistaofpeace1, 2008-07-10 02:39 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]akatokuro, 2008-07-10 02:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]laryna6, 2008-07-10 03:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]akatokuro, 2008-07-10 04:15 pm UTC

[info]akatokuro
2008-07-10 02:36 pm UTC (link)
I know people say that Asch coming back gives an interesting “twist” to everything that happened…but what about the fact that virtually everything in the game was about Luke realizing slowly about why he still had a right to live? He wasn’t able to understand this until the VERY end of the game, and EVERYONE in the party wouldn’t take “sacrifice” on Luke’s part for an answer. That would just pretty much throw everyone’s efforts out in the window, even Asch’s. Sorry, but that’s just too fucked up of an ending, especially for a Tales title. Call it cliché if you want, but it makes ten times more sense overall, which I’ll take any day of the goddamn week.

You know, another thing I loved about this game was the nuance it gave instead of just painting things as black and white. Yes, a huge part of Luke's character arc was realizing that he wanted to live and that his life had value.

But the way Abyss presents it, "the will to live" is not the same thing as "living no matter what". The "will to live" is not the same thing as "living", period. Rather, it's about Luke finding value in himself, which in turns gives his choices value--and which finally in turn gives his sacrifices value. Keep in mind that even after Luke had his epiphany about wanting to live, in the Tower of Rem, he was still fully prepared to go on with the self-sacrifice in Asch's stead. This game has a very existentialist bent, after all--one of my favorite moments is Luke's ultimate conclusion that "there is no special meaning to living." That sounds bleak, but I think it's wonderful. Luke found no special meaning, no ultimate purpose, and he's okay with that.

The framing of the whole issue as either Luke/Asch "having the upper hand" seems to completely contradict the core theme of the game, to me, in regards to those two. I absolutely loved that the game threw the entire traditional, cliche "one must surpass the other" binary out the window. Luke, at the end, had no stake in having the upper hand over Asch, or surpassing Asch, or using Asch at all as some kind of measuring device to validate himself. Instead, Abyss framed it as Luke throwing out that frame of mind completely.

Keep in mind that at the end, Luke was completely at peace with the idea that Asch was better at him at a lot of things, and was more suited because of those strengths to playing the hero. The difference was that this no longer bothered him or threatened him. That was the way that he grew up and matured. The reason Luke ended up facing Van was because Asch self-destructed because he simply couldn't understand that. To Luke, Asch became not so much his "original" as just someone he cared about - and Luke was willing to put himself on the line to save him, yes - as much as he would have been willing to do the same for Tear or for Guy.

Luke's expression in the ending when he begins to disappear struck me as of someone who's at peace with what he's doing. It's difficult for me to imagine, as much as we know Luke loves Asch and kept harping on about how much he wanted Asch to live, Luke peacefully going on with using him to restore himself. To me, the fact that Luke realizing he had worth and valuing his own life makes his love and sacrifice for Asch all the more powerful. If he didn't learn to value himself, that kind of sacrifice would be meaningless.

In short: I prefer the Asch interpretation because of the clever, subtle meta elements employed, the upending of cliches, and the resonance it has with Abyss's themes--but more than anything, how it uplifts both Luke and Asch. As opposed to "Luke lives", which is about giving one a zomg-ultra-happy ending and leaving the other pointlessly killed as a plot device and basically forgotten in that final clip.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
(no subject) - [info]laryna6, 2008-07-10 02:50 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]akatokuro, 2008-07-10 02:55 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]laryna6, 2008-07-10 03:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]akatokuro, 2008-07-10 03:49 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sistaofpeace1, 2008-07-10 03:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]laryna6, 2008-07-10 03:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sistaofpeace1, 2008-07-10 03:35 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]akatokuro, 2008-07-10 03:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]akatokuro, 2008-07-10 03:35 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sistaofpeace1, 2008-07-10 03:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]akatokuro, 2008-07-10 03:44 pm UTC

[info]yukidragon
2008-07-10 02:39 am UTC (link)
If you want to know my personal theory, I think they both came back. Asch is just waiting to meet with Natalia alone after Luke greets them all. After all it would be just like him to meet with only the girl he spent 60% of his time thinking about rather than the whole group that drove him nuts. An intimate reunion between childhood sweethearts if you will. ;3

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[info]9pointrook
2008-07-10 03:13 pm UTC (link)
Just throwing in a bit of detail I noticed: in the room where Asch is killed, there are two large, symmetrical statues in the background beside the gate--the only difference that I can see being that one has long hair, and the other short hair. This might work for either argument, but just before Asch's body falls, the statue with the short hair is practically shattered.

Of course, this could be me reading too much into things, but just thought I might point it out.

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[info]laryna6
2008-07-10 03:22 pm UTC (link)
...I did not notice that. It is epic symbolism, like a lot of the game. Thank you for pointing it out.

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[info]sistaofpeace1
2008-07-10 03:53 pm UTC (link)
I just watched the scene again on YouTube. It could also mean that Luke's "short-haired" self is about to come to an end, and that he'll finally get his "long hair" back, so-to-speak.

But yeah, nice eye there, regardless.

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[info]veers1138
2008-07-10 05:06 pm UTC (link)
I haven't studied this game to the extent you people seem to have, but I always thought that at the end, it was Asch's body with Luke's soul. Asch just doesn't have it in him to "act like Luke", which is what the red-headed young man in the ending is doing.

And why has no one in this discussion mentioned that, you know, promises are often not kept, either intentionally or as a result of exterior influences?

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[info]flamecrysta
2008-07-14 08:04 pm UTC (link)
Actually, I heard the game was originally made so that Luke would be the one who came back. The Namco/Bandai planned a shot with Luke hugging Tear, but cut it out cuz they wanted it to be ambiguous. (I can argue either side, cuz I loved them both) For the whole Jade looking sad/happy at the end, it could go either way, since what Luke/Asch said at the end could go either way. Even if Jade looked sad, it could just mean that he thought the Big Bang had occurred, even if it hadn't.
As for the second-order hyperreasonance thing, I always thought Luke gained the ability to do it because Asch's fonons were in Luke. I personally think that Luke was the one that came back, since Asch's fonons were inside Luke already, but Luke didn't turn into Asch when they flowed into him. (I could be wrong) But really, Lorelei could easily have stopped them from merging, since hello, he's the sentience of seventh fonons, he could just stop the Big Bang from happening, or whatever.

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