takarazuka: A humble request for your opinion

ohtori_tsuki (

ohtori_tsuki) wrote in

takarazuka,
@ 2008-11-11 19:33:00

Current mood:

hopeful

A humble request for your opinion
I'm sure that everyone is sick of hearing this, but I am doing a project on Takarazuka and I was hoping that I could get some help from the people here.

Basically, my project is about musumeyaku, focusing mostly on the stage craft involved in their presentations of femininity, but also on some broader topics.
So here is what I was wondering:
What do you think about the types of women that musumeyaku play?
Do you think that there has been a shift in the types of roles that musumeyaku are given to play?
Also, I was wondering about musumeyaku fan clubs, are there very many of them? Are they very populous? Stickland mentions that musumeyaku's fan clubs are looked down upon by other fan clubs, do you find this to be the case?

If people who have an opinion on these topics wanted to say something about them that would be great, but I know that most of you have more important things to do. There is just so little written on musumeyaku that I was hoping for some more first-hand information.

Thank you!
Yoroshiku onegaishimasu

(Post a new comment)

michiru42
2008-11-12 02:28 am UTC (link)

I can't speak for everyone, obviously, but I can give my personal experience...

Personally, I love the musumeyaku, I am in fact much more in Taka fandom for them than the otokoyaku (generally). I think they're generally typecast into playing cute roles or elegant princess type roles, and both types of roles tend to show women as submissive and adoring. While I'm not always fond of how useless those roles can be, I do still find the musumeyaku elegance beautiful and I love the soprano singing of the more talented ones.
However, there has definitely been a change in musumeyaku roles in that they're getting more and better ones from, say, ten years ago. I've seen a lot more of them playing roles other than "The otokoyaku's girlfriend", and more #2 and #3 musumeyaku are getting stage time. They still get fewer parts and many of the parts are boring, but it's not all the time now. Also, with female writers rising in the ranks for the first time, there are some good changes.
On the fan clubs: when I was in Japan I was in Maikaze Rira's fan club, and visited with Ayano Kanami's fanclub at one event. Both were quite popular with many people. They weren't nearly as popular as the top star's clubs, but they could compete with any of the other otokoyaku's clubs.

Two things that might be of interest to your research:
1) The fan clubs line up in order. The first club is the top star's club, next comes the number 2 stars club, and after that the fan clubs line up according to what ken their star is (the kumicho's club will come third, the co-kumicho's will fourth after that, etc). The top musumeyaku's club is usually made to line up with the other stars in order of ken, rather than with the top 2 stars.
2) When I once told another fan I was a Maikaze Rira fan, she looked at me like I was crazy. Make of that what you will.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	michiru42 2008-11-12 05:48 am UTC (link)
	And oh yeah! There was a post a day or two ago by Lokis Day (I'm sure I'm spelling the name wrong) that wound up getting almost 200 posts, where PrincessLucia and I got into a big musumeyaku discussion, so there's some interesting opinions to be had there. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	ohtori_tsuki 2008-11-12 08:28 pm UTC (link)
	I will have to look over that thread. I was wondering, were the majority of the people in Maikaze Rira's fan club women? I assume so, but I thought I would ask. Thank you! (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	michiru42 2008-11-12 09:47 pm UTC (link)
	Yes. Actually, though, about a tenth I saw in Ayano Kanami's (I went to an event with her) were men, and I've heard (though I can't confirm) that Shirahane Yuri has a lot of male fans, too. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	lokisday 2008-11-26 12:32 pm UTC (link)
	No, that was right actually :D (Reply to this) (Parent)

ladybretagne
2008-11-12 04:20 am UTC (link)

I adore musumeyaku, especially the ones like Toono Asuka and Hanafusa Mari who are a bit atypical. I think the really interesting thing is that from a lot of what I've seen the musumeyaku's off-stage personas are as different as the otokoyaku's are. They have to exaggerate their femininity the same way the otokoyaku exaggerate their masculinity as part of the whole aesthetic of the Revue.

(Reply to this)

	(Anonymous) 2008-11-12 06:01 am UTC (link)
	This discussion remind me of The legend Hanafusa Mari super popularity. (Reply to this)

eddieblackmaru
2008-11-12 06:04 am UTC (link)

If you are doing a research paper, I highly recommend these readings;

Nakamura, Karen and Matsuo, Hisako. 2003. “Female Masculinity and Fantasy Spaces: Transcending Genders in the Takarazuka Theater and Japanese Popular Culture.”

and

Roberson, Jennifer. 1992. “The Politics of Androgyny in Japan: Sexuality and Subversion in the Theater and Beyond.” American Ethnologist 19(3): 419-442.

Although they talk mainly about the question of sexuality and the role of the gender both in Takarazuka and in Japan's society, they are great papers that also delve inside the workings of the Takarazuka Revue.

Although graceful, the musumeyaku's female gestures and actions are much more rigid and stiff. This extends not only on the stage, but off the stage as well- the musumeyaku holds her elbows in, sits in 'proper' female fashion, and follows the lead of the otokoyaku both onstage and off. (there are interviews of Takurazuka actors, I have to ask my professor what the name of the DVD that had the interviews on it was, if you are interested in watching it im me) As the otokoyaku express the ideal male for women, sensitive, caring, loving, and passionate; likewise the musumeyaku subconciously over-eggarates the female's 'idealized' image. Although both otokoyaku and musumeyaku male and female behaviors are supposed to be restricted to the stage only, it is not always the case.
Although the otokoyaku's image and ideal man has been, in recent years, becoming much more a widespread view (dissatisfaction with Japanese men -the salarymen reality- has driven Japanese women to look elsewhere for comfort. Even if they do marry a Japanese man, this sentiment of dissatisfaction remains.) Many of the fans of Takarazuka are older, married women who seek something they have lost in the Revue. Many of the fan clubs remind them of their youth and high school days. Times are changing, and now the change of the musumeyaku's role is gradually taking place.
It also should be noted that many musumeyaku and otokoyaku did not chose their role- biological factors such as height, voice, and body-type were the main factors in casting their roles. Although both otokoyaku and musumeyaku are women, the more 'womanly' women are delegated to performing the female roles. Again, re-enforcing preconceived notions of femininity and its expected form. Those who wanted to be otokoyaku or musumeyaku and who were not biologically capatible, were then encouraged or decouraged, whichever tactic used, to conform. Once commited to a gender, they will then be that gender until they leave the Revue. The only exception was for the otokoyaku; because of the principles of the Revue and the man who founded it otokoyaku are, every so often forced to switch genders just as a reminder of their gender. NOW- this may have been one of the things recently changed, but this was from one of the academic articles mentioned above. There are rules that even the top stars must follow. Continuing on-
Musumeyaku are not as popular as the otokoyaku, it is a simple fact, however it does not mean that the musumeyaku is not as needed nor loved. The musumeyaku embodies the ultimate height of what a woman can be, it is then understandable then why people admire them for a varity of reasons. These are the women who get to be with that idealized male, and another reason perhaps is that the audience (mainly women) can empathize easier with the musumeyaku (plays a woman). The fans of both otokoyaku and musumeyaku are overzealous in their nature. They are incredibly organized, have strict sets of rules and demand that everyone, even those not in a club, abide by these rules. Try lining up out of turn for a chance to give a letter to a favorite actor and find the hostile glares of the members of the fan clubs. For many, this is the only outlet of escape from the mundane humdrum of their lives, (many are married women who go out to watch the shows while their husbands are at work) so this hobby is the only thing that is uniquely theirs. The fans for both musumeyaku and otokoyaku will wait hours for glimpses of their favorite actors, one women said in an interview that she would never wait for a man as long as she waited for her favorite actor.

(Reply to this)

eddieblackmaru
2008-11-12 06:10 am UTC (link)

Oh dear, I exceeded my limit so this had to be posted after.

Now I hope I helped, it is interesting that you ask as I myself am writing a nice long semester final paper on Takarazuka and the effects of the otokoyaku's existence on the modern-day Japanese feminine male. My paper also incorporates other factors, like the Shojo and manga contribution and the salary-men. If you have any questions or care to talk more, or have any sources you care to share let me know. Thank you.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	user_undefined 2008-11-12 04:10 pm UTC (link)
	That paper sounds really interesting. Would you be willing to share here when it's done, maybe as a PDF or something? If not, that's cool, I just wondered. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	eddieblackmaru 2008-11-12 06:41 pm UTC (link)
	It depends on how my professor likes my paper, but when it is done I wouldn't mind posting it- I do worry about plagiarism, as I have spend quite a lot of time and effort on it, it is an understandable fear, but I don't think this community would do that. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	user_undefined 2008-11-12 09:03 pm UTC (link)
	That makes sense. Well, maybe post some notable excerpts? :) Good luck with it! (Reply to this) (Parent)

	michiru42 2008-11-12 05:41 pm UTC (link)
	I agree, that paper sounds interesting. If you're willing to share, let us know. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	eddieblackmaru 2008-11-12 06:41 pm UTC (link)
	It depends on how my professor likes my paper, but when it is done I wouldn't mind posting it- I do worry about plagiarism, as I have spend quite a lot of time and effort on it, it is an understandable fear, but I don't think this community would do that. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	michiru42 2008-11-12 09:49 pm UTC (link)
	Probably not...you could also just send it to people who request it, to limit those who see it. (Reply to this) (Parent)

ohtori_tsuki
2008-11-12 08:36 pm UTC (link)

Thank you for your input, your topic sounds very interesting as well!
I might ask you about that video, I am always looking for more sources.
Have you read "Men and Masculinities in Contemporary Japan: Dislocating the Salaryman Doxa"? I've also used an interesting book on modern treatments of alcoholism and codependency called "The Too-Good Wife" by Amy Borovoy which is very interesting.
Good luck with your project!

(Reply to this) (Parent)

bosozoku_spirit
2008-11-12 09:30 am UTC (link)

Presentation of feminity. Good focus, that changes of the traditional male-oriented point of view :)

If I may, I suggest you to have a look to Marjorie Garber's "Vested Interests", also, a lot of essential things about gender's performative nature are to be read in Judith Butler's classic "Gender Trouble". It's a kinda philosophical point of view you may not take for your works but really, it is worth reading. Even if I'm not a specialist of gender studies (beginned with it but quickly turned into historical theory and systematical theater analyze...), it really helped me out during gradschool.

I'd add eddieblackmaru's previous post (which sums up the fact very clearly), that the choice of this hobby is not innocent. The middle-aged women involved into fan-clubs are looking for an activity that SOCIALIZE them before everything else. I think it reproduces at a smaller scale the group schema which is the very organization of Japanese society itself. In some way (necessarily reductive), club activity is to housewive what compay is to the husband. I must admit I love the reactions of the husbands brought at the theater by their wives. Even if they're enjoying the play, they don't dare to say it most of the time, and they say they came just to be nice to their wives. Perhaps to save their virility, Takarazuka not being a male enough leisure... but still, it depends on the play, they are really more talkative when it comes to Elisabeth. Anyway, if you can catch up a husband at demachi, you can say he's clearly getting bored while the woman is all excited. Really funny scenes...

As for musumeyaku's global personality, I have the clear feeling that you can now find two distinct categories of them. The cute one, the otokoyaku's girlfriend reproducing most of the time what is expected from a girl nowadays. That's most of them, but roles make a lot (even the cutest would metamorphose if she plays a Marie-Antoinette). And the mature, adult one, represented by actresses like Dan Rei or Maikaze Rira. Then come questions of identification for the audience, and other stuff I let you think about. There are a lot of things to say, so I wish you good luck and hard work !

(Reply to this) (Thread)

michiru42
2008-11-12 05:44 pm UTC (link)

You know, the cute ones tend to be much more popular, too (since the ideal woman in Japan is cute). I remember telling one girl that Fuu-chan and Maa-chan were the same age and she was shocked (in a bad way) because Fuu-chan was so adorable and Maa-chan was...not. Another fan told me Dan Rei was not popular despite her many years in 'Zuka because she wasn't cute.

Then again, the Revue does need the Maa-chans and Dan-chans to do their adult roles, and ones like Hama-chan who are both cute and adult depending on the role are very popular.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	bosozoku_spirit 2008-11-13 02:02 am UTC (link)
	And you're totally right. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	eddieblackmaru 2008-11-12 06:30 pm UTC (link)
	I agree with bosozoku spirit. It is interesting to see the increase in male participants in the Revue. Many are indeed brought reluctantly by their wives or girlfriends and then continue to go to enjoy the Revue for personal enjoyment. Getting a guy to admit that he volunteer goes is like pulling teeth. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	user_undefined 2008-11-12 04:13 pm UTC (link)
	I don't have much insight to offer, but I think it's interesting and important that you're focusing your work on the musumeyaku roles. They're playing a gendered part just as much as the otokoyaku are - it's like using the word "drag" to imply exaggerated performance of any gender, not just one you weren't born with. Good luck with your project! (Reply to this) (Thread)

	ohanachan 2008-11-12 07:20 pm UTC (link)
	They're playing a gendered part just as much as the otokoyaku are - it's like using the word "drag" to imply exaggerated performance of any gender, not just one you weren't born with. I love you for this statement <3 <3 (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	user_undefined 2008-11-12 08:54 pm UTC (link)
	Aw! Hooray! :D (Reply to this) (Parent)

	ohtori_tsuki 2008-11-12 08:40 pm UTC (link)
	I am very excited to focus on this, I feel that it's easy to overlook the musumeyaku's craft, which is not fair, since it takes just as much work as an otokoyaku's. It was kind of an offshoot of this project that made me decide to go as a drag queen for the big costume party at the end of the year, even though I'm actually female. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	user_undefined 2008-11-12 08:53 pm UTC (link)
	That's awesome! I do a lot of drag performance, and have have a lot of respect for excellent queens, regardless of biological gender. :) (Reply to this) (Parent)

	bosozoku_spirit 2008-11-13 02:04 am UTC (link)
	Ooooh, very Butler-ish statement ! :) (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	user_undefined 2008-11-13 05:57 pm UTC (link)
	I actually haven't read Gender Trouble, but it is on my list! Combined interests in gender as performance/queer gender identity and the Japanese language are what got me into Takarazuka in the first place. I am pleased, though not surprised, to find that there are so many kindred spirits in this community. (Reply to this) (Parent)

jenebi
2008-11-12 10:27 pm UTC (link)

I only have time for quick answers, and I really am not interested in all the "Gender Studies" type stuff that some of your responses get into, but thought I'd share a couple thoughts, which you may or may not find helpful. ;)

I would add though, that a lot of things that English-speaking fans tend to take as "fact" come from only one or two places, mostly by people who didn't really know much about Takarazuka when they created/wrote them. I would take with a large grain of salt anything from the Dreamgirls video documentary, which I see pretty often as the source of the "musumeyaku must do what otokoyaku say," reference. Roberston's work is more in depth, but there were a lot of areas that she didn't seem to understand and a lot of her research is on documents that are over 50 years old (from the war years or earlier...) Strickland's thesis, OTOH, is very good, and is based on interviews with actual performers and years of working with the revue.

What do you think about the types of women that musumeyaku play?

I think they're restricted in a lot of ways, but in many ways it's the same as the way the otokoyaku roles are limited. Takarazuka produces a lot of shows that have very "cookie-cutter" heros and heroines, and for both otokoyaku and musumeyaku, for every truly deep, interesting role, there are at least a dozen that fall into simple "Earnest Young Man" "Spunky Young Woman" stereotypes.

Do you think that there has been a shift in the types of roles that musumeyaku are given to play?

I think it's improved a little bit since I first became a fan, but not by much. There seems to be a little more attention given to musumeyaku who aren't top stars - although I say that, but then they'll have a show without even a decent role for the musumeyaku top, and I'll feel like nothing has changed.

Also, I was wondering about musumeyaku fan clubs, are there very many of them? Are they very populous?

I think they're less visible than otokoyaku clubs, and often are smaller, but they're around. Even young musumeyaku who don't have their own clubs will often have dedicated fans who wait for them before and after shows. I've met fans of non-top musumeyaku several times when I was in Japan.

Stickland mentions that musumeyaku's fan clubs are looked down upon by other fan clubs, do you find this to be the case?

I'm in an otokoyaku club, but I still honestly couldn't say whether this is true or not. The people in my club that I interacted with seemed to have a sort of genial affection for all the various troupe members they saw, ie. "Oh, here's Yuu-chan!" and so on. It didn't seem to matter if they were musumeyaku or otokoyaku.

I have a (non-Japanese) friend who's in a musumeyaku club, and when I mentioned whose club she was in to some (Japanese) friends from my club, they were surprised, but not in a way that seemed negative to me. I think "gaijin" fans are unusual enough on their own; musumeyaku gaijin fans are an extreme minority. :)

From the degree that I was able to see, there are very good relations between the club I'm in (Aran Kei's) and the club for her musumeyaku partner (Toono Asuka). Toono would often smile and nod to us as she passed our line-up and people in my club would nod back to her and even sometimes clap or cheer. I may be projecting my own feelings, but it always seemed to me that there was a respect and fondness for her and her club, and her as Aran's partner. Staff never chided anyone for acknowledging her.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

ohtori_tsuki
2008-11-12 11:37 pm UTC (link)

Thank you for your help!
Yeah, I am in general very skeptical of 'Dream Girls', they make some blatantly false statements, and make some unfair inferences with the way they put certain scenes together.
I have to say, I'm so jealous of your being in Aran Kei's fan club. My first ever Takarazuka show was 'El Halcon/Revue Orchis' in the Grand Theatre and she and Toono Asuka have been my favourite conbi ever since. I'm so sad that they'll will retire before I get another chance to see them together.

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bosozoku_spirit
2008-11-13 02:11 am UTC (link)

I've never managed to see Dreams Girls down there, but heard only bad things about it... therefore I suppose I don't skip anything important.

ohtori_tsuki, don't be jealous of others :) if you are doing a more or less serious work about the Revue, then you have to remain objective, which implies to take distance with it. Try not to get overwhelmed by your feelings, I think it will help you a lot too from a personal point of view. And you'll never know, perhaps you're going to have incredible experiences of the Revue that the others could be jealous too :D stay cold-headed and you'll see you will be going the things you have to do really more easily :)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	ohtori_tsuki 2008-11-14 05:04 am UTC (link)
	Objectivity is easier said than done, but I do my best. I'm an econ student at heart, so I will be the first to admit that there is no denying well-collected data no matter what you want to be true. I really hope that I have some enviable experiences though.... (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	bosozoku_spirit 2008-11-14 09:22 am UTC (link)
	Don't worry, you'll eventually get them :) I imagine it is difficult and conceived it somehow as a daily fight at first. Got used to forget my inner feelings after some years though. Gambatte ! (Reply to this) (Parent)

	jenebi 2008-11-13 02:11 am UTC (link)
	Oh, you picked a good show to see first! Although a very confusing one... I've seen it at least 12 times (between the theater and DVD) and I still discover little bits I missed. It's hard to see them retire, but it seems to be what they both genuinely want, so I try to (pretend to) be happy for them. :) (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	ohtori_tsuki 2008-11-14 05:05 am UTC (link)
	Yeah, I have to admit to having been very confused the first time, though so overwhelmed by the beauty of Asuka and Touko's voices that I could not be induced to care about the plot. I have since started to understand more of it. I am trying to be happy for them, I just hope that both of them continue to have great stage careers! (Reply to this) (Parent)

michiru42
2008-11-15 05:29 pm UTC (link)

I'm glad to hear about the musumeyaku fan club thing. I remember when I waited with Maikaze Rira's fan club, we were right next to Yuki Mirai's fan club, and when Yuki Mirai walked out to visit with her fans, she didn't look at us, and no members of Maa-chan's fan club looked at her. But I HAVE heard about Hana-chan bowing to Wao's fan club, so maybe it's different and more friendly with top stars.

Also, thanks for mentioning the bit about Dream Girls. In the earlier discussion I had with the awesome PrincessLucia, I used an example from it, but generally I agree. I could feel the filmmaker shaking her fist and screaming SEXIST! during the whole thing, with no attempt to see anything else. Very one sided.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

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