suggestions: OpenID implementation

Tailen (

tailen) wrote in

suggestions,
@ 2006-02-28 15:58:00

Entry tags:

account management, openid, ~ submitted - needs retagging

OpenID implementation

Title
OpenID implementation

Short, concise description of the idea
Use OpenID as a login on LJ. Bind an OpenID account to an existing LJ account.

Full description of the idea
Actually, I thought this was how OpenID was supposed to work in the first place...?
People with an OpenID should be able to bind that to their LJ account so they can use OpenID to log in instead of the user & password. This login is both for posting to your own LJ and for commenting on other people's LJ under your own name. It should be completely indistinguishable from a normal username/password login.
An OpenID that is not previously bound to an LJ would give a user the anonymous 'roaming profile' just like it works now. Unlike the OpenID proposal at Allowing OpenID Users to Join/Post In Communities, which suggests a sort of auto-generation of fully privileged LJ accounts for OpenID users instead of them having to create an LJ account on their own, this suggestion should instead merely merge two existing systems: The OpenID login, and the LJ login.
As another difference from the above suggestion, I do not see a lot of code necessary to implement this, all you have to do is to allow two ways for a user to login to their LJ account:
Entering username/password
Or entering an OpenID URL.

The cookie setup and login screens are the same and they both already exist, since the OpenID system is working on LJ. The LJ user would specify in their personal user settings precisely what OpenID URL can be used to login to their account. This would bind that LJ login to that specific OpenID.

It is possible I have overlooked something critical here, but I cannot imagine why LJ admins have gone to the trouble of actually autogenerating LJ profiles with anonymous privileges instead of using the OpenID as a login as it was intended to be? That just seems like a lot more work. Is this a security issue?

Other websites such as www.zoomr.com can manage multiple login methods just fine.

An ordered list of benefits

Easy login for OpenID and LJ users
More seamless integration with other OpenID communities and actually taking advantage of the power of the login-once concept that OpenID introduces
Integration ought to be simple enough, it is merely an alternative way to log in. The systems for doing it are already running on LJ
OpenID would become a useful thing to have and it would most certainly be embraced by a lot more people if it could log them onto LJ each day without them having to remember username/password
It would actually implement OpenID. Currently, OpenID users coming to LJ can only post anonymously, which means there is no point in having OpenID at all. You might as well just post anonymously in the first place

An ordered list of problems/issues involved

None? This suggestion does not get around creating an LJ account at all, it only adds value to the OpenID concept.

An organized list, or a few short paragraphs detailing suggestions for implementation

In every LJ user's 'personal information settings' under the 'privacy' or 'advanced' headlines, simply create another text box similar to e.g. the 'email' box where a user can type in an OpenID URL name, which from then on can be used to log into the LJ account in the same way that entering your username and password will log you in.

(Post a new comment)

alexismckee
2006-02-28 04:37 pm UTC (link)

Ok, just to clarify a thing; The whole idea of OpenID being anonymous should abandoned altogether! The point of OpenID is validation and not proving the trustability of the user as such. OpenID users should have the same rights as a normal livejournal user. Of course, there is the problem of spam bots signing up with OpenID, but that can be easily taken care of by presenting OpenID users with a prove-you're-human check upon first login.

So basicly, here is how it should work:

Current users should be able to assign a OpenID url to their account.

When logging in with an OpenID for the first time you should be presented with the prove-you're-human form and the livejournal EULA. (Basically that's all that's needed)

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Maybe I'm missing what you mean, but...

pauamma
2006-02-28 05:55 pm UTC (link)

Current LiveJournal users already have a URL assigned to their account (in your case, it's http://alexismckee.livejournal.com/), which they can use to authenticate to other servers using OpenID.

When logging in to other servers using the URL assigned to their account, if they're not currently logged into LiveJournal, they need to give their LiveJournal username and password (IIRC). Since they already need a LiveJournal account for this to work, there's no need to show them the LiveJournal ToS again - they already saw those when they created the account.

The first time you log in to a server (other than LiveJournal) using your LiveJournal OpenID identity, LiveJournal checks with you that you really want to tell that other server who you are.

The one thing you can't do, is log in to LiveJournal itself using your LiveJournal OpenID identity. But I don't think that this can be changed, since your OpenID identity can't be verified unless you provided your LiveJournal username and password, which is the same as logging in to LiveJournal with your username.

http://www.openid.net/ explains in a nutshell how OpenID works, and http://www.openid.net/specs.bml goes into more detail.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

Re: Maybe I'm missing what you mean, but... -

alexismckee, 2006-02-28 06:06 pm UTC (Expand)

Re: Maybe I'm missing what you mean, but... -

pauamma, 2006-03-01 11:50 am UTC (Expand)

Re: Maybe I'm missing what you mean, but... -

alexismckee, 2006-03-01 11:57 am UTC (Expand)

Re: Maybe I'm missing what you mean, but... -

tailen, 2006-03-01 12:24 pm UTC (Expand)

Re: Maybe I'm missing what you mean, but... -

tailen, 2006-02-28 06:13 pm UTC (Expand)

Re: Maybe I'm missing what you mean, but... -

adudeabides, 2006-02-28 09:43 pm UTC (Expand)

Re: Maybe I'm missing what you mean, but... -

tailen, 2006-02-28 09:54 pm UTC (Expand)

Re: Maybe I'm missing what you mean, but... -

adudeabides, 2006-02-28 09:58 pm UTC (Expand)

Re: Maybe I'm missing what you mean, but... -

tailen, 2006-03-01 01:56 am UTC (Expand)

adudeabides
2006-02-28 05:22 pm UTC (link)

OpenID was intended for verification off-site...those commenting on LJ without LJ accounts and commenting on other sites with your LJ info.

If you're leaving a comment in someone's LJ and you have your own LJ account, that's a form of identification right there -- associating an OpenID account account with an LJ account makes no sense, within the site. If you're visiting from off-site an leave an OpenID comment, you are not posting anonymously -- OpenID identifies who you are; you are establishing who you are, and it's not something people can effectively fake.

Nevertheless, I do feel users should be able to associate OpenID accounts with their journals, and be able to manage those associated accounts. Though, I suspect that would require more code change than you state.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	jennifer 2006-02-28 05:33 pm UTC (link)
	I think that's the point they're trying to make, actually. As it is now, OpenID comments are lumped in with anonymous comments, down to captcha verification and all that. It shouldn't be that way, because as you note yourself, OpenID itself identifies who you are; you're not anonymous, but the way it works now, you might as well be. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) -

tailen, 2006-02-28 06:02 pm UTC (Expand)

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imc, 2006-03-01 11:29 am UTC (Expand)

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tailen, 2006-03-01 11:39 am UTC (Expand)

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adudeabides, 2006-02-28 09:44 pm UTC (Expand)

tailen
2006-02-28 05:44 pm UTC (link)

OpenID was intended for verification off-site...those commenting on LJ without LJ accounts and commenting on other sites with your LJ info.

I imagined it would be something weird like this, which is why I included the bit about how an unbinded/unassociated OpenID account that tries to post should be working just like it does now.

...associating an OpenID account with an LJ account makes no sense, within the site

Maybe not if your OpenID server is LJ itself, because then you'd have to log in with your password anyway, but for the people who have not created an OpenID account on the LJ server, it makes perfect sense. It is a login authentication.

If you're visiting from off-site an leave an OpenID comment, you are not posting anonymously -- OpenID identifies who you are; you are establishing who you are, and it's not something people can effectively fake.

Nooo, but since OpenID accounts are considered anonymous accounts for the purpose of posting (i.e. OpenID accounts can only post on LJs where anonymous posting is allowed), what exactly is the difference between posting an OpenID comment and posting an anonymous comments that says at the top "Hi, it's Tailen"
Sure, you get authentication that the user is actually Tailen through the OpenID, but.. why? What's the point?

I could perhaps understand your argument if OpenID was a hugely widespread thing that everyone had, and there was big a possibility that someone would have an OpenID account from their own blog or whatever, but would not necessarily own an LJ account, and would still want to post comments under their name.
But considering the newness of the technology and the fact that LJ is the largest userbase of this, why on Earth doesn't LJ see the OpenID as a valid login on the site?

Quite frankly, how can we expect people to adopt a technology that LJ is supposedly the biggest advocate of, yet they don't even implement it themselves?
People are not flocking to LJ in droves to post on it using their OpenID. LJ users ARE the OpenID users.

Though, I suspect that would require more code change than you state.

I admit I don't have the full technological insight and LJ API knowledge to judge that, but it is just a way to login. You have an API that checks the MD5 password to authenticate an LJ login, and you have an API that sends an OpenID request to the server. And this code is already implemented and running. OpenID is already working on LJ.
Why wouldn't it be able to login a user?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

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decadence1, 2006-02-28 06:04 pm UTC (Expand)

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tailen, 2006-02-28 06:26 pm UTC (Expand)

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decadence1, 2006-02-28 06:37 pm UTC (Expand)

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tailen, 2006-02-28 06:49 pm UTC (Expand)

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decadence1, 2006-02-28 06:29 pm UTC (Expand)

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tailen, 2006-02-28 10:00 pm UTC (Expand)

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adudeabides, 2006-02-28 10:26 pm UTC (Expand)

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tailen, 2006-03-01 12:12 am UTC (Expand)

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kunzite1, 2006-03-01 01:10 am UTC (Expand)

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tailen, 2006-03-01 01:47 am UTC (Expand)

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kunzite1, 2006-03-01 01:53 am UTC (Expand)

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tailen, 2006-03-01 02:08 am UTC (Expand)

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kunzite1, 2006-03-01 02:11 am UTC (Expand)

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tailen, 2006-03-01 01:58 am UTC (Expand)

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kunzite1, 2006-03-01 02:26 am UTC (Expand)

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tailen, 2006-03-01 02:35 am UTC (Expand)

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tailen, 2006-03-01 03:04 am UTC (Expand)

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kunzite1, 2006-03-01 02:44 am UTC (Expand)

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tailen, 2006-03-01 03:05 am UTC (Expand)

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tailen, 2006-03-01 03:38 am UTC (Expand)

earle
2008-04-11 12:19 pm UTC (link)

associating an OpenID account account with an LJ account makes no sense

You've got completely the wrong end of the stick. The great strength of OpenID is distributed identity management, wherein you tie together all your different accounts with a single profile - and by using delegation, you can identify yourself with your website, rather than just a generic profile page on an OpenID provider's system.

I can already log into half a dozen different websites just by typing my domain name. Sites that don't support it are starting to look positively old-fashioned - embarassingly so in LiveJournal's case, considering that this is where the technology originates.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

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tailen, 2008-04-11 05:32 pm UTC (Expand)

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makenshi_fox, 2008-08-20 08:47 pm UTC (Expand)

Problem with OpenID in general -

omnifarious, 2008-08-20 10:16 pm UTC (Expand)

	"completely indistinguishable" wechsler 2006-02-28 06:17 pm UTC (link)
	No. I want LJ to tell me whether a given user has been authenticated by LJ itself or a third party site; I do not want to have to issue the same level of trust to LJ users and OpenID logins, as then I'd have to give minimal trust to both. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	Re: "completely indistinguishable" tailen 2006-02-28 06:29 pm UTC (link)
	That's not what the quote means. I specified it clearly in the implementation part of the post, and in the comment right here as well :) (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

Re: "completely indistinguishable" -

wechsler, 2006-02-28 07:25 pm UTC (Expand)

Re: "completely indistinguishable" -

tailen, 2006-02-28 07:47 pm UTC (Expand)

Re: "completely indistinguishable" -

omnifarious, 2006-10-01 11:27 pm UTC (Expand)

noweb4u
2006-02-28 06:17 pm UTC (link)

It's been months since I read my openid list mailbox, but as a correlary to your comment, I'd like it if rss was integrated with openID, so when you authenticated with OpenID, it uses your identity URL to discover RSS feeds (using link tags in the document at the identity URL), and creates an actual journal of sorts, with the comment links going back to the actual comment pages for the original feed. If the end comment site supports openID, it'd be actually totally awesome and seamless integration between livejournal and external blogs.

Oh, if wishes were dollars, I'd be a serious man of wealth.

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)

tailen
2006-02-28 06:32 pm UTC (link)

They're currently working on that. There's still standards to be debated, but the idea is that you can save your profile, avatar, whatever you want with your OpenID as either a vCard, RSS, Atom, FOAF or whatever they decide upon, and that info will be downloadable to every new server you login to with your OpenID.

I think it would be possible to include links as you say in your profile as well. Be they URLs or RSS feeds :)

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) -

mart, 2006-02-28 07:24 pm UTC (Expand)

kunzite1
2006-02-28 08:03 pm UTC (link)

OpenID users are lumped with anon for ease of programming. i think.

LiveJournal users can use LiveJournal as an OpenID authentication server.

in order for LiveJournal to figure out who you are, you must log in using your username and password.

once you're logged in to LiveJournal, you can log in using OpenID somewhere else that has OpenID support. such as DeadJournal.

sounds like you're trying to minimize your passwords to nothing. which makes OpenID useless, because you have to log in somewhere to make OpenID happen.

for the purpose of an example that i'm going to perform, i'm commenting here with my LiveJournal account of

kunzite1.

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)

kunzite1
2006-02-28 08:09 pm UTC (link)

well, damn. i was going to comment as

kunzite1 [deadjournal] but anon/OpenID commenting is disabled for

suggestions.

point is, i went to DeadJournal and logged in as

kunzite1, then came back to LiveJournal and logged in via OpenID by providing my DeadJournal URL ( http://kunzite1.deadjournal.com/ ) and it logged me in as

kunzite1 [deadjournal].

one username, one password, authenticated at both DeadJournal and LiveJournal.

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tailen, 2006-02-28 09:19 pm UTC (Expand)

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tailen, 2006-02-28 09:29 pm UTC (Expand)

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tailen, 2006-02-28 09:36 pm UTC (Expand)

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tailen, 2006-02-28 10:10 pm UTC (Expand)

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tailen, 2006-03-01 12:12 am UTC (Expand)

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tailen, 2006-02-28 09:12 pm UTC (Expand)

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tailen, 2006-02-28 09:51 pm UTC (Expand)

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tailen, 2006-03-01 01:03 am UTC (Expand)

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tailen, 2006-03-01 01:03 am UTC (Expand)

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tailen, 2006-03-01 01:50 am UTC (Expand)

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murklinstest, 2006-03-01 06:52 am UTC (Expand)

Count me as against.

pauamma
2006-03-01 03:29 pm UTC (link)

(Reply to this) (Thread)

tailen
2006-03-01 04:14 pm UTC (link)

When I let someone access some of my restricted entries, I made an educated guess that that person won't blab indiscriminately about what they read in my journal, and will take appropriate steps to choose a secure password and to protect it aganst accidental disclosure.

I think that's a bit much to expect from 49 people, but alright :)

Most people I know, however (and that includes myself) don't have the ability to gauge accurately how safe an OpenID server is. Besides, trust isn't transitive. If I trust someone, and that someone trusts a given server, that doesn't mean I trust that server or its administrators.

I don't think that argument is valid.
It's true that the OpenID server that hosts your account (for instance LJ or myopenid.com) has to be a place you want to trust with your account. This is the main reason that OpenID is not suggested as a standard to eliminate the use for, for instance SSL Certificates. Verisign and others - these people actually verify that you are you in real life, they don't just let you create an account like OpenID servers do. However, you still have to trust Verisign not to abuse your SSL Certificate, in the same way you have to trust myopenid.com not to abuse your OpenID account.

You can't say that trust isn't transitive when you're talking about an authentication system, because this is exactly what such a system is supposed to establish. 3rd party trust.
If you say you don't trust some other person's OpenID server to handle the OpenID correctly, then you'll also have to say that you cannot trust verisign either. Or thawte, or digicert, or geotrust, etc.
The very purpose of an authentication system is that if a friend of yours gets an account there, you can trust that the authentication server will always authenticate that account.

The OpenID technology gives no guarantee that tailen.myopenid.com is tailen.livejournal.com or anything like that. What it does guarantee is that in every single place on the entire internet where tailen.myopenid.com has signed in with his OpenID, that is going to be the same person. The OpenID server authenticates that the person using that name is always going to be the same person.

So if I let you comment on my entries, or see some of my restricted entries, I want to know whether you logged in to LiveJournal directly, not through another OpenID server. As it seems to me that your suggestion would erase that distinction, I'm firmly against.

I urge you to read my suggestion again, because it very specifically points out the fact that the OpenID account is to be bound to your LJ account. That's the trust aspect of it.
You are not supposed to be able to tell the difference between an LJ login and an OpenID login. The OpenID technology already guarantees that the person logging on to LJ using an OpenID URL is the owner of the LJ account.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

For

fredemmott
2006-09-09 10:36 am UTC (link)

I was going to be posting this with my OpenID (http://fredemmott.co.uk/), however due to LJ's implementation of the OpenID consumer side being pretty much useless, I've got to post as fredemmott instead, as an OpenID is anonymous - what's the point in the OpenID support if you have to have a completely separate LJ account as well to comment or post in the communities? Especially, not being able to comment with openid on the OpenID suggestions pages is *REALLY* not going to get you a representative discussion, and as for other parts of the site, it's not going to make people signup for accounts for the most part, it's just going to make them go elsewhere.

Specificially, what I'd like is http://community.livejournal.com/suggestions/571763.html, however that's been rejected. This is one feature of LJ I'd really like to be able to use with OpenID, and I'd be willing to have a livejournal account as long as it was still tied to my non-LJ OpenID (which I'm posting with). Alternatively, being forced do do a captcha/email verification or other "I'm not a SpamBot!!!" tests the first time you login with OpenID and then being treated as a normal LJ account except for the actual journal would be nice. An OpenID /should/ be as trustable as a LJ account.

I only use LiveJournal for commenting on friend's blogs; if I could post to communities here with OpenID I would, however with the current implementation, if any of the other community sites that my friends use (such as facebook or myspace) get OpenID support, I'll be using them instead.

(Reply to this)

I agree with you

omnifarious
2006-10-01 11:39 pm UTC (link)

I want this too. My OpenID is omnifarious' OpenID account [omnifarious.org], and I want to be able to login once to that ID and then be treated as if I were omnifarious as far as LJ is concerned because I am, and the point of OpenID is that I shouldn't have to login to LJ in order to use it, I can log into some OpenID provider's system and they can authenticate me to LJ.

As I stated in a different post, I don't like LJ's authentication system. I think it is both less secure than I'd like and a lot less convenient than I'd like. I want to use my own.

(Reply to this)

	I agree as well chrisrockshard 2007-02-20 09:15 pm UTC (link)
	I want to be able to tie my chrispetersweb.com OpenID to my chrisrockshard LiveJournal account. (Reply to this)

	Ditto sirenian 2007-03-07 11:17 am UTC (link)
	Please let us merge our LiveJournal accounts with our OpenIDs! (Reply to this) (Thread)

OpenID. When is this going to be implemented?

tailen
2007-03-07 05:22 pm UTC (link)

I sent the following letter to the LJ developers, but got a "we'll look at it" reply. That's what they've been saying for a year.

I've been holding back on this post for a full year, so I think I'm entitled to vent some steam here...

The huge corporations of AOL and Microsoft recently pledged their support of OpenID.

I therefore have to refer once again to my previous post on the LJ suggestion forum from a year ago (!) asking when exactly the inventors of OpenID were going to implement it themselves?

Aren't the LJ developers just the slightest bit embarrassed that they themselves have not yet embraced the technology they've invented? What kind of a signal does this send to everyone else?
Has LiveJournal separated itself from OpenID? If so, I haven't heard about it. Has LJ given up promoting this technology at all?

The last I heard was Brad Fitzpatrick and another developer called David saying they would file a ticket for my exact suggestion. This was a year ago, but as far as I can tell, either this has not happened or the ticket is still open.

I gave up after a few months of hearing and seeing no progress and I just figured OpenID would die a slow death since its biggest proponent (LiveJournal) was obviously completely uninterested in the project.
Some brave souls have managed to keep the flame burning and have even gotten AOL and MS on the one-login bandwagon.

The half-assed implementation that LJ made in the beginning of the OpenID endeavor remains to this day without any improvements. Saying that OpenID is useless on LJ would be an understatement of epic proportions.
You can't use it with an existing livejournal, you can only post with the same permissions as an anonymous user, and it autogenerates a nonsense LJ username for every OpenID.
This implementation is hardly even worthy of a test on a development server.

My question to the LJ developers here is very simple: Is LJ going to implement OpenID properly?

(Reply to this) (Parent)

One Year and Ten Months Later

tigerhawkvok
2008-01-11 08:53 am UTC (link)

I must say I agree. I was going to post a suggestion to this effect, but searching led me to this entry. Please, allow me to tie in my OpenID with my LJ identity! I thought this might even be some buried feature, and I filed a ticket (#832157) to check -- but it actually hasn't been implemented!

(Reply to this)

pbristow
2008-04-13 09:45 am UTC (link)

I've been reading this discussion with fascination for several hours now, with a break partway through to catch 8 hours' sleep. Which means I now can't remember quite why I got here in the first place (though I'm guessing it was a link from one of the latest *HUGE* batch of suggestions), but who cares? I now understand OpenID a lot better than I did yesterday. Thanks for all the useful links and clarifications.

I would also say you have the patience of a saint, but... You slipped up a couple of times (e.g. "It's really very simple." - Ouch! ) Undergraduate saint, mebbe? Good luck on those finals... =;o} (What am I saying? This post's two years old already. You're already graduated and out there earning your keep as... um.. what low-paying junior positions *do* they give to freshly graduated saints these days?)

Cheers,

Paul B. =:o}
(Officially Too Old And Slow To Be A Techie Anymore)

(Reply to this)

PLEASE MERGE THEM!!!

jehy [jehy.ru]
2008-11-10 06:46 pm UTC (link)

I already requested the same feature in support now

>>
I'd like to map my openid account to existing livejournal account.
I want BOTH to use openid and simple account capabilities - they seem like two parts of one thing, don't they? Isn't it logical to merge them instead of creating different entities?
I would even pay for that more then for a just payed account.
>>

PLEASE MERGE THEM!!!

(Reply to this)

	koluthcka 2008-11-10 06:53 pm UTC (link)
	I want it too! (Reply to this)

	one_panda 2008-11-10 07:01 pm UTC (link)
	Oh. Cmon. Do merge them, I insist. The man above me is quite reasonable and I trust his motives are good enough for the internets. OpenID and livejournal together - we can wish for nothing more. ^^ (Reply to this)

	morretta 2008-11-10 07:09 pm UTC (link)
	MERGE THEM! MERGE THEM!! MERGE THEM!!! we need it!!! )))) (Reply to this)

Silly AJAX profile changes, but no OpenID?!?

omnifarious
2008-11-10 07:20 pm UTC (link)

What on earth are you guys doing? You basically don't even bother to do anything with a really important feature for two years in favor of useless UI wanking that accomplishes little. Why? Are you afraid of OpenID or something?

(Reply to this)

	* awander 2008-11-11 09:38 am UTC (link)
	Merge them. (Reply to this)

	etre-moral-etre-sincere.blogspot.com 2009-02-01 02:45 pm UTC (link)
	Oh my - is it still not implemented??? (Reply to this)

	azurelunatic 2009-03-06 04:53 am UTC (link)
	It's been a while; this is being revisited: http://community.livejournal.com/suggestions/928644.html (Reply to this)

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