You're old enough to kill. You just can't win. ([info]birthcrisis) wrote in [info]stupidpetowners,
@ 2006-05-08 09:06:00
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Okay, I've been really good friends with this kid I know for a while. He was the first cool kid I met when I moved to my old town, so we hung out a lot.

I'd go over to his house to listen to records and hang out all the time, and he had two cats. One was a fat indoor-only cat named Quicksilver, who was basically a lump who'd bump his head against you all the time and bite and claw at your hands and ankles.

The other cat was an outdoor cat. They'd had her for 15 years and she lived outside her entire life. I've never gotten the entire story, but the poor thing was barely fed and lived and spent most of the winters and cold nights in a wooden box they had built and lined with old towels. They always kept her fed, but she was always so so so skinny and looked really rough. Whenever I went to knock on the door, she'd come running over and meow until I reached down to pet her.

I offered to take her home quite a number of times, even though we weren't really supposed to have cats in the house/apartment (my dad and I moved quite a few times thoughout my time there).. like I said, I've never gotten the full story on why she was outside in the first place, but all my friend kept saying was, "My dad hates her, so she lived outside." He also always told me that she "didn't mind living outside, she's used to it." Apparently she'd have to be used to it.. 15 years of living outside must be pretty rough, though.

Anyhow, my friend and I talked the other night via AIM and he told me that the cat had died a few weeks ago, and they buried her under the tree in their backyard and "tossed a rock down to mark the spot."

It still really hurts that I wasn't able to take this cat, I think my dad and I could have given her a few awesome last months before she passed away.

What bugs me even more is this guy was vegetarian for YEARS (I'm not sure if he still is or not), which I don't understand at all. I guess not all vegetarians/vegans believe in animal rights and treating animals in the best manner possible.



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[info]nildro
2006-05-08 02:32 pm UTC (link)
Maybe it's because I live in the middle of nowhere.
But quite frankly...I don't see what's wrong with having outdoor animals. all the cats we've ever owned have been barn cats and thus live outside. and they live long healthy lives getting vet care whenever they need it. that cat probably would have spazzed if you'd taken her indoors. My cat at home as always lived outdoors and spazzes out whenever she's inside. she loves people and is well fed....but hates being inside. 15 years implies they were doing something right and obviously cared about the cat. I think it's rather rude and insulting of you to 'offer' to take the cat away. or that you think somehow a few months with you would be awesome as opposed to spending that time with people who loved her.

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[info]sicpuppy
2006-05-08 04:22 pm UTC (link)
That is your opinion, Im afraid. It is not fact, or at least, it isn't a universal fact which is true of everywhere on earth. Perhaps your particular area, but certainly not the world.
I HATE seeing blanket statements made about people who allow their cats outside, its seriously my biggest peeve because its personally offensive to good owners like me who choose to let their animals outside (not getting at you specifically, but your response did remind me of how much it annoys me when people slag off owners of outdoor cats).
I have had cats here for 16 years, never had one come to any harm from being allowed outside. The only cars here are the people who live here themselves, who all have cats that go outside too and we all know and look out for each others cats! This is the UK, no large predators, no rabies either. All my cats are vaccinated, neutered and microchipped before being let outside so I can really see no problems with it.

The RSPCA will NOT adopt out cats or kittens to people who are going to keep them indoor only. We just WON'T. Its one of the first things we ask. If people say they live by a main road, we say they cannot have a cat from us. If they say they'll just 'keep it indoor only' we say you certainly will not, goodbye.
You say long life is not a sign of a healthy animal, what would you accept as a sign of a healthy animal then? How about that, in 16 years of owning indoor/outdoor cats I've only ever had to go to the vet for shots, microchips, speutering and once to have a cat pts? Never have any of my cats ever had any health issues. They've all been beautifully fit, healthy, active happy cats who lived long lives.

Studies have shown that indoor only cats are more prone to obesity and behavioural problems, but you don't see me preaching that to every cat owner who has indoor only cats, because I know its not going to happen to ALL indoor only cats and I don't want to generalise. Unfortunately, they sometimes feel like they have the right to preach at me :/

In the UK keeping a at indoor only is generally frowned upon (RSPCA aside, most other smaller shelters will not rehome cats to indoor only homes either, the cat MUST have access to the outside). Mainly because of the difference between the USA and the UK which mean it is generally safer here for cats. Being a cultural issue, its sometimes hard to look outside of what you were raised to believe is right.
I believe its right to allow a cat outside IF you live in a safe, quiet area like I do.
I do not agree with keeping cats indoor only and never will. People would rant and rave at someone who said they were going to get a dog but knew full well they'd never walk it or let it breathe fresh air outside. And yet if someone does the same to a cat, thats ok?

I honestly don't care if people wish to keep their cats indoor only. Thats their choice. I have a whole BUNCH of reasons as to why I dislike the practise but its not my place to spew them out to every indoor only cat owner I come across, its just arrogant of me. However, the respect doesn't often seem to be returned by them and more often than not, myself, and people like me, are branded as SPOs by people who don't even know us, our animals or the area we live in.

This isn't just directed at saturniakitty, of course, please don't think it is. I just really want people in general to be aware of how those members of the community who allow their cats outside must feel each time this kind of thing comes up.

But in this particular case, it seems he kept the cat outside because he genuinely didn't want to care for it, which isn't a good reason, so Im not supporting him. But I do support responsible owners of outdoor cats whole-heartedly.

My maine coon would absolutely curl up and DIE if I forced him to be insde for the rest of his life. The breed was BRED to hunt, climb,and be out in the elements, I mean, just LOOK at them! It would be like locking a border collie in a house! The breed was not intended to be indoors its entire life. And as you can see, he doesn't look too bad for being let outside :P

http://www.shadowrat.com/stuff/blue.jpg

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[info]rhinecat
2006-05-08 04:31 pm UTC (link)
It's unsafe, period. It's not a cultural issue, it's a supervision and safety issue. There are safe ways to let your cat out, but they all involve a responsible human supervising. Having an indoor cat means nothing with regard to whether the cat will be walked or get "fresh air." It means that when they do, they'll actually be supervised, rather than run around being at personal risk and killing wildlife.

Cats who go outside unsupervised are exposed to completely unneeded danger. It's unethical, regardless of where you live, to put your cats at greater risk than absolutely necessary for their health and well-being. And "indoor cats have more behavioral problems" is a bogus justification, because behaviors such as urinating wherever a cat pleases, and similar, are problems ONLY if they live indoors with people. I can "cure" a lot of behavior problems by throwing my cats outdoors, because the problems will no longer be relevant to the cats' lifestyles. Regarding obesity, ANY cat who eats more than it needs to maintain its weight will get fat. Again, this is not specific to indoor cats, it is specific to irresponsible owners who can't be bothered to watch their cat's food intake and exercise level. And really, if it came down to it, I think most decent people would rather have a pudgy live cat than a thin one that's been mutilated by some bored or sociopathic person.

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(no subject) - [info]sicpuppy, 2006-05-08 04:34 pm UTC
...... - [info]emptyobsidian, 2006-05-08 04:45 pm UTC
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[info]malus_diabolus
2006-05-08 04:40 pm UTC (link)
Thank you for posting this - I agree it really is a cultural issue. There is no way that I would have kept any of our cats as indoor only.
I think if you mention it to most UK cat owners they would thin it was weird to do that to an animal.
I for one am getting bored of the "OMG this person had an outdoor cat" comments that abound over LJ-land, not everybody lives in the USA.
My family currently has two 17 year olds and a 21 year old cat (and that makes me feel old). They have been indoor/outdoor cats all their lives - and we wouldn't change it for the world.

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[info]gatorofages
2006-05-08 04:42 pm UTC (link)
"its seriously my biggest peeve because its personally offensive to good owners like me who choose to let their animals outside"

Well then , you should never complain when and if one of your animals gets run over, eaten, poisioned, some cat disease, parasites, dragged off to the pound by someone like me, I can go on...

You are taking the risk of allowing your animal to go roam in an anviroment that has not evolved to handle it, and to trspass on peoples propertys.

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(no subject) - [info]sicpuppy, 2006-05-08 04:46 pm UTC
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[info]emptyobsidian
2006-05-08 03:26 pm UTC (link)
1. She pointed out that its outside because "dad hates it"-that makes me think that the cat or kitty did something to make it be put outside.
2. She also mentions that the cat was extremely thin...which either means its not being fed enough or there is an underlying medical problem.
3. Just because an animal is alive does not mean "you are doing something right"-merely living is not a standard by which you can judge. Go to a shelter-there are animals that have lived in the most grotesque conditions imaginable being beaten daily for years. That doesnt mean they are doing something right and that they love the animal.
4. Outside pets are generally frowned upon by most people here because stuff happens to animals outside. They get into poison. They get shot. They get run over. They get in fights. They die. They get hurt. They get sick. If not spayed, they breed like mofos. They get stolen and eaten. They get trapped by sadistic bastards who hit them with baseball bats. They disappear for mysterious reasons. Etc... You have had stunningly, amazingly, shockingly good luck if every cat you have ever owned was an outside cat and lived a very long healthy life. We had like...2 do that of the plethora that we tried to help. (This is not counting the kittens we were able to bring inside-all of them obviously lived long, healthy lives-Im just talking about the already grown always outdoor ones)
I moved to the south and did deal with tons of barnyard cats who would have FLIPPED if we brought them inside. It was a difficult situation to deal with-I know that. But we keep all of our animals inside when possible (in fact, all of them are now, except for the horses...and well, they obviously have a barn and stalls). Its just safer and healthier for the animal. I would say of our wild cats (and there were TONS) over 50% were killed either by idiot red necks or a car. And more just mysteriously vanished.
The whole animals are outside things and only take them to the vet if they are dying and maybe not even then mentality is so deeply ingrained in people though that I feel like nothing will change it.

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[info]sicpuppy
2006-05-08 04:32 pm UTC (link)
"Its just safer and healthier for the animal."
Again, this depends on where you live. It cannot be applied to all cats, everywhere on earth.

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..... - [info]emptyobsidian, 2006-05-08 04:46 pm UTC
Re: ..... - [info]sicpuppy, 2006-05-08 04:49 pm UTC
Re: ..... - [info]emptyobsidian, 2006-05-08 04:52 pm UTC
Re: ..... - [info]sicpuppy, 2006-05-08 04:56 pm UTC
Re: ..... - [info]emptyobsidian, 2006-05-08 04:57 pm UTC
Re: ..... - [info]sicpuppy, 2006-05-08 05:10 pm UTC
Re: ..... - [info]malus_diabolus, 2006-05-08 04:53 pm UTC
Re: ..... - [info]emptyobsidian, 2006-05-08 04:56 pm UTC

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Re: ..... - [info]rhapsodical78, 2006-05-14 01:40 pm UTC
Re: ..... - [info]badenbaden, 2006-05-14 03:18 pm UTC

[info]nildro
2006-05-08 07:37 pm UTC (link)
cats die a lot inside as well. household chemicals are frequent sources of poision. as are human foods...
heck. even the indoor life can lead to problems (sedentary lifestyle leads to obesity and diabetes).
I'm certainly not saying that the only way a cat can be happy is if it's left outside. I know in a lot of areas that's simply not feasible for a lot of the reasons that you've mentioned. but some of your ideas about the outisde (they get stolen and eaten?) are a little far fetched and rarely if ever happen in rural enviornments.
I just don't think that keeping animals outside automatically makes an SPO. unless they like...live by an interstate and have already lost numerous cats to it.

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(no subject) - [info]silentlycynical, 2006-05-09 02:53 pm UTC
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[info]bubblebobble
2006-05-08 04:14 pm UTC (link)
i agree with you. we've had outdoor cats and had noproblem. the only reason our cats became indoors was we rescues one who was declawed and the other got really old and well he died.

but i know people who have outdoor cats that have long healthy lives. one was even brought in to be a house cat and went crazy trying to get back outside.

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[info]sicpuppy
2006-05-08 04:30 pm UTC (link)
Agreed. Unfortunately, there is a definate 'holier than thou' problem with the whole 'indoor vs outdoor cat' thing. I've been involved in soooo many arguments about it, its almost unbelieveable. And most of the time, they're not even started by me! I might post a photo of my cat, for example, and someone will just HAVE to pipe up 'looks like your car is outside, he'd be much happier living indoors!' or something equally as retarded.
I don't like the idea of indoor only cats, but I don't go and make snide comments about them each time someone lets on that they own one, I'd feel like a bitch, each to their own and all that. But I just don't seem to get that same respect in return very often, which is pretty annoying :/
Sometimes I wonder if its the actual practise of confining an animal to a house for life which rubs me up the wrong way, or the attitude of some of the people who do it. Why can't people just say 'your area is obviously safer than mine, enjoy your outdoor cat. I personally wouldn't risk it where I live' and be done with it? In my experience, its hardly ever like that :/

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[info]sicpuppy
2006-05-08 04:31 pm UTC (link)
cat, not car. doh.

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(no subject) - [info]danasaur, 2006-05-09 03:07 am UTC

[info]rhinecat
2006-05-08 04:33 pm UTC (link)
Why can't people just say 'your area is obviously safer than mine, enjoy your outdoor cat. I personally wouldn't risk it where I live'

Because it is not a concern that is area-specific, unless you live in some sort of temperate wasteland where parasites, other animals, and other people just don't exist. Those are risks to outdoor cats that exist across all borders and all cultures. Please see my above comment.

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(no subject) - [info]sicpuppy, 2006-05-08 04:36 pm UTC
...... - [info]emptyobsidian, 2006-05-08 04:48 pm UTC
Re: ...... - [info]sicpuppy, 2006-05-08 04:54 pm UTC
Re: ...... - [info]emptyobsidian, 2006-05-08 05:01 pm UTC
Re: ...... - [info]sicpuppy, 2006-05-08 05:05 pm UTC
Re: ...... - [info]gatorofages, 2006-05-08 06:16 pm UTC
Re: ...... - [info]bubblebobble, 2006-05-09 01:19 am UTC
Re: ...... - [info]spikesandstuds, 2006-05-09 02:36 pm UTC
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[info]rhapsodical78
2006-05-14 01:41 pm UTC (link)
Both things rub me up the wrong way.

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[info]evilcresyluna
2006-05-08 06:42 pm UTC (link)
Those people didn't love her. She was not well fed. She probably didn't receive veterinary care, as being constantly skinny is a health issue that wasn't taken care of. No mention of other veterinary care. To compare your outdoor, well-fed, well-loved, cat shows you skimmed the entire post just to make an argument about outdoor cats aren't always unloved.

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Goodness!
[info]diva1397
2006-05-08 05:43 pm UTC (link)
Can't we just agree to disagree on this one? Arguing about it isn't helping anyone.

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Re: Goodness!
[info]sicpuppy
2006-05-08 05:46 pm UTC (link)
I'd certainly like to. I suggested it a few times, but meh. I hope it dies down now though. Im certainly sick of it :P

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[info]coendou
2006-05-08 05:56 pm UTC (link)
Re: UK vs US argument.

I accept that it is far safer to have an outdoor cat in the UK than in the US. You have fewer diseases, no wild predators, and far safer streets (less traffic and slower traffic) than we do. If someone said they had an outdoor cat in the UK, I wouldn't hold it against them or post anything about it.

So then, why is it that when there's a post about an outdoor cat in the US, all the UK posters have to get up in arms about how we shouldn't complain about outdoor cats? In the US, it is NOT generally safe for a cat to wander outdoors. It's common for cars to go 40 or more mph in residential areas (regardless of speed limit), far too fast to stop in time if a cat is in front of them. There are raccoons, coyotes, badgers, you name it that could hurt the cats. There may be some areas where it's safer, but overall, outdoor cats in the US are not safe.

Can we call a truce? US posters won't call UK posters SPOs for having outdoor cats (even if we think indoor would still be a better idea), if UK posters won't whine everytime someone in the US is called a SPO for letting their cat wander?

I swear, every time this issue comes up people on both sides of the ocean become totally unreasonable. There should be a rule that only US posters can respond to US posts and only UK posters can respond to UK posts, or something.

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[info]sicpuppy
2006-05-08 06:27 pm UTC (link)
"So then, why is it that when there's a post about an outdoor cat in the US, all the UK posters have to get up in arms about how we shouldn't complain about outdoor cats?"

For me, its mainly because that distinction is rarely, if ever, made in posts.

If I saw a post that said 'he was stupid for allowing his cat outside in this part of the world', thats one thing. I can deal with that. But more often than not, it is written so as to imply ANY owner of outdoor cats is stupid, not just those in parts of america, but those world over. If it was made clear that the person only thought negatively of those who allow cats outside in dangerous areas of the US, I would not be pissed. But as it seems to be implied that Im equally as stupid myself for allowing my cats outside, with no recognition of the fact that I in fact am not living in the USA, I get annoyed. This doesn't just refer to this post, or this community either. I've encountered this kind of thing before at other places.

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[info]gatorofages
2006-05-08 06:38 pm UTC (link)
"written so as to imply ANY owner of outdoor cats is stupid"

Not stupid, at least on my part, irresponsable. Stupid, I think is knowing the risks out there, and ignoreing them....

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[info]coendou
2006-05-08 06:57 pm UTC (link)
I think it's a safe assumption that most (if not all) UK posters, who would be observing and posting about cats in the UK, would not call SPO on outdoor cats.

Which means that, unless the poster happened to be visiting the UK at the time of the post (which you would think they would mention), the poster of any such SPO storey is most likely in the US or some other area where it's NOT safe.

So maybe there would be a lot less drama if people would just assume this whenever an outdoor-cat-SPO post is made.

Note: I have also seen plenty of UK posters state unequivically that it is fine to keep outdoor cats - without noting that they live in the UK, which results in a big ol' thread before it becomes clear that the US/UK difference is at play. So this goes both ways. It's incredibly annoying whichever direction it's going.

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(no subject) - [info]sicpuppy, 2006-05-08 06:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]coendou, 2006-05-08 07:03 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sicpuppy, 2006-05-08 07:13 pm UTC

[info]evilcresyluna
2006-05-08 06:57 pm UTC (link)
It is YOUR personal peeve that people don't put distinctions about location in every post or comment about outdoor animals. I think it is insane that you expect every person to make sure that every possible situational consideration is taken into account and examined in every post. Oh wait, except you're not arguing that. You're arguing that the one thing that irritates you that wasn't applicable in this situation wasn't mentioned.

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(no subject) - [info]sicpuppy, 2006-05-08 07:07 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rhinecat, 2006-05-08 07:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sicpuppy, 2006-05-08 07:46 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rhinecat, 2006-05-08 07:49 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sicpuppy, 2006-05-08 07:50 pm UTC

[info]nildro
2006-05-08 08:46 pm UTC (link)
ummm...I live in the U.S.
it's safe in my area.
so no...I don't agree to that. I let my cat's inside and I certainlly don't think that makes me an SPO.

how about people stop posting the "omg they let their cat outside, they so dumb" posts and in exchange people stop saying that it's cruel to only keep cats indoors (personally I don't have a problem with indoor cats. one of ours is. he's happy.)

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[info]coendou
2006-05-08 09:08 pm UTC (link)
There are very, very few places in the US where it's truly safe for an outdoor cat. In the city/suburbs, you've got cars. In more rural areas, there are SO many native species who are dangerous to cats - predators like coyotes, plus animals that wouldn't want to eat a cat but could get in a fight with one over food, territory, whatever. If you live on farmland, and manage to keep wild animals off your property, I could believe it. Or if your cat never leaves your yard by choice (which is rare, but does happen). But that accounts for maybe 5% of all cases, especially cases that wind up posted on here.

I agree that for the most part, any post whose ONLY complaint is that the cat is allowed outside unaccompanied is probably not worth bothering to post. Those posts are rare, though. Most of them have other reasons for posting about it - the cat doesn't seem well-cared-for, the cat is destroying property, cat isn't allowed inside *at all*, there is a known danger in the area, etc etc.

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[info]giantevilcat
2006-05-09 01:19 pm UTC (link)
My wife and I moved up to a farm outside Poughkeepsie, NY in January with our nine cats. We gave some thought to letting our cats out, but we wanted to let them get settled into their new home first, regardless of whether we decided to let them out eventually.

The farm had 22 farm/barn cats when we moved here. They get good care -- they're fed every day, are all fixed, get their shots, go to the vet when needed, and get a good bit of attention from people. They're not left to fend for themselves like many barn cats. Most of them are friendly and they look good. However, since we've been here, one cat disappeared during a snowstorm and was found in the hayloft three weeks later (he had hidden in there while wet and froze to death). Another got some strange neurological illness (he could only walk in circles) and died despite vet treatment. Fortunately it wasn't something contagious. Another needed to go to the vet after getting beaten up by a stray cat that is trying to establish herself with the group.

One of our cats managed to sneak out and we couldn't find her for four days. When she reappeared it took almost an hour to catch her (she had been feral when we rescued her 8 years ago and she seemed to revert when she got out) and she had ticks.

There is one cat who we let out under supervision (we watch him, and he knows to stay in a relatively small area) but they're basically staying indoor cats up here. Too many things happen to cats outside despite the best of intentions.

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