aburt ([info]aburt) wrote in [info]sfwa,
@ 2007-04-14 11:52:00
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Entry tags:pixel-stained technopeasant wretch

"Scabs" and Gresham's Law
I talked to Howard because I was flabbergasted myself that he thought writer #1 giving away free ebooks was harming writers #2 and #3 and #4 and...

So don't shoot the messenger here -- because I'm not agreeing with Howard, just explaining what he said in response.  (In fact, while I want to see the discussion, I'll say up front that I personally <i>don't</i> agree with his theory, but that'll have to wait for another post as I don't have time right now.)  (Also noting this is with his permission.)

His concept stems from what's called Gresham's Law, which is about "bad" money driving out "good" money.  I.e., he's hypothesizing that the more people give away freebies, the harder it becomes for others to get paid (e.g. because publishers or readers might exploit the freebie propensity in order to pay authors less).  To the extent that he believe's that's true, he sees authors having an obligation to stand together to prevent it. 

(And -- aha! -- I'm connecting the dots here:  If he believes authors should stand together to prevent this problem, those who give away freebies would be crossing the "picket" line, I guess, for their own benefit at the expense of the rest, and thus be "scabs."  So now at least I understand why he felt the word was applicable.  I don't think he made his fundamental point anywhere near clear enough.  [Now that I understand it, I still think the logic is flawed.])

Also noting he agrees it's his own position, not SFWA's.  I think he went for the incindiary approach in order to get folks talking.  He said he's seen bad trends in the music industry regarding freebies and such, and wants authors spared that pain.

But, let's chew on this Gresham's Law concept.  Google on it for more info; wikipedia has a decent intro.

As I said, I don't personally believe his theory; in fact, I think it's flawed.  (Not Gresham's Law, which I think is valid, but it's application to this situation.  My feeling is it applies in reverse.)  But it's a valid topic for civil discussion.




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[info]jonquil
2007-04-14 06:24 pm UTC (link)
> He said he's seen bad trends in the music industry regarding freebies and such, and wants authors spared that pain.

Like, for instance, Jonathan Coulton giving selected works away for free on his Website and encouraging people to buy his CDs and subscribe to his Work-A-Week program? Like User Friendly creating an online comic, selling the print rights to O'Reilly for a tidy sum, and continuing to publish online?

Free samples are a well-established marketing practice, and have been since King Camp Gillette gave razors away and then sold the razor blades. "But people can choose to do nothing but read online!" Those people weren't your customers anyway. However, the people who read a little Martha Wells, or Lois McMaster Bujold, or Scalzi online, often think "Gee, this is really good, I'll buy some!" are often new readers who become steady customers.

When I was in college, I borrowed SF novels from my friends. When I got a job, I began buying SF; my first purchases were new books from authors I'd come to love when I couldn't afford to buy them.

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[info]jonquil
2007-04-14 06:25 pm UTC (link)
Argh. Delete 'are often new readers who'. Damn ineditable comments.

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[info]aburt
2007-04-14 06:32 pm UTC (link)
I can't argue his position for him, and won't, but I don't think your reply quite undercuts his, since a small number of examples can't prove a theory true (and his theory isn't set up to allow a small number of counterexamples to prove it false).

He's on about "Gresham's Law," so it might make sense to reply in that context.

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[info]jonquil
2007-04-14 06:39 pm UTC (link)
He is hypothesizing something that is counterfactual. He provides no evidence to support his hypothesis. I provide evidence that contradicts it.

The "bad trends in the music industry regarding freebies" -- what bad business does he mean? If he means people giving away authors' work for free without their consent, of course it's wrong. But it has nothing to do with musicians, such as the one I mention (and there are many more; Barenaked Ladies puts *videos* up on line, for pity's sake; the Dixie Chicks put one song from their newest album online as a teaser) choosing to give away work for free as an incentive to buy. I haven't seen any musicians -- as opposed to RIAA members -- complaining that other musicians' online presence diminishes their sales.

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(no subject) - [info]wyldemusick, 2007-04-14 07:00 pm UTC

[info]wyldemusick
2007-04-14 06:24 pm UTC (link)
The entire music business is a bad trend. Using that business as a basis for an argument as to why authors should retreat to their mountain cabins and refuse to utilise every promotional tool at their means to extend their audience is as blindsighted as the Big Four's hysterical clinging to broken business models while suing the crap out of their target market.

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[info]aburt
2007-04-14 06:34 pm UTC (link)
I gather his point was that, yes, the music industry is showing a bad trend (esp. with how it treats artists), and he's concerned writing could follow it, if we're not careful.

(Which, taken in isolation, is a statement we can probably all agree with!)

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[info]wyldemusick
2007-04-14 06:48 pm UTC (link)
It's a statement that we could all agree with, I'm sure, but it shows a denial, disregard, or lack of knowledge of the history of publishing, which has never had clean hands. Perhaps it hasn't been as gratuitously ugly as the music business or the film business (where writers are essentially considered to be garbage that unfortunately needs to be dealt with) but there is a long and ugly history there.

Writers, like musicians and composers, are in the main stuck with handling their own promotion, which means finding as many innovative or useful methods for pushing one's name out into the market. We're *always* giving a taste for free, whether it's to a potential audience, or to editors we want to seduce into buying our work.

I'm leery of making that point, of course, as I fear I'll find Hendrix suddenly claiming we're all pushers and pimps as well as scabs.

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[info]elenuial
2007-04-14 06:38 pm UTC (link)
Case in point: RIAA sues downloaders over a studio approved album leak.

I shudder to think that the industry will actually actively attack those who seek to use these technologies for their own promotion.

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[info]elenuial
2007-04-14 06:35 pm UTC (link)
For convenience's sake: the wikipedia article on Gresham's Law.

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[info]cmintz
2007-04-14 06:40 pm UTC (link)
A problem with using Greshman's Law is that it assumes readers have no taste or preference. Clearly, if I wish to read Author A—or listen to Musician B—then eyeball and ear time with C and D is going to be auditioning them for my necessarily-limited-by-other-things roster of what I can experience.

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[info]jonquil
2007-04-14 06:48 pm UTC (link)
Excellent point. Money is fungible; novels are not.

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[info]autopope
2007-04-14 07:14 pm UTC (link)
Absolutely.

A secondary point is that for many musicians, album sales are not a profit centre -- live performance and sale of merchandise at gigs is how they make their bread and butter. (Royalties on a CD in a store; about 50 cents. Profit on a CD sold for the same price at a gig; more like $5.) While the RIAA could care less about live performances and want to milk the recording sales for all they're worth, this is actually not in the musicians' interests -- only the existence of a near-as-dammit cartel situation blocking the distribution pipeline forces them to go along with it.

Book publishing is different insofar as (a) most of us authors don't do live performances and certainly don't make a profit at it, and (b) the publishers don't act at odds with our interests in terms of making a profit, they profit by book sales and so do we.

So it's a broken metaphor, for starters.

For seconds, I don't know about you, but while I'd claim authorship over my books, I'm not the only significant actor in the chain of events that leads them into the readers hands. Along the way they tend to get edited. Editing is a valuable service for the reader: not only does it fix bugs, it stamps the editorial imprimatur on the product, telling the prospective reader that someone (Ginjer Buchanan, say, or David Hartwell) figure this novel was worth them spending a month on and selecting for their brand.

Gresham's law would only really apply if all books/stories were created equal and thrown at the public with complete anonymity, stripped of any means of identifying the author.

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(no subject) - [info]scalzi, 2007-04-14 07:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]timprov, 2007-04-14 07:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]jonquil, 2007-04-14 07:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]autopope, 2007-04-14 07:43 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]douglain, 2007-04-14 08:00 pm UTC

[info]scalzi
2007-04-14 07:08 pm UTC (link)
"He said he's seen bad trends in the music industry regarding freebies and such, and wants authors spared that pain."

Indeed! As we all know, the music companies' tragic mistake in allowing music to be listened to for free on that evil technology known as "The Radio" utterly destroyed the market for private ownership of the music back in early 20th century! And then the television industry foolishly followed their lead in the 1950s, dooming that nascent technology to a pitiable, also-ran status in America's home and hearts! And let's not begin to discuss how the nefarious public library system doomed poor Barnes & Noble and Borders Books. You can hardly find a large, well-stocked bookstore in America's commerce centers these days.

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[info]cmintz
2007-04-14 07:39 pm UTC (link)
One word: Amazon.

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(no subject) - [info]scalzi, 2007-04-14 07:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cmintz, 2007-04-14 08:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]aburt, 2007-04-14 10:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]scalzi, 2007-04-14 11:03 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cmintz, 2007-04-14 11:37 pm UTC

[info]timprov
2007-04-14 07:20 pm UTC (link)
Gresham's Law is like Moore's Law: one guy came up with a really useful and good observation, and then people descended and tried to jam every conceivable situation into it. In this case, every market imbalance. It gets talked about a lot, but it isn't actually applicable to very many of the situations people apply it to, and this is no exception.

Talking about free fiction as a market imbalance might be interesting, though.

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[info]douglain
2007-04-14 07:42 pm UTC (link)
This doesn't clarify anything. It's just a reiteration of his original position. Also I don't see how Gresham's law applies here at all. What needs to be clarified if this is going to be more than a mindless rant is how offering works for free debases the works. Many would argue that their work actually increases in value after being promoted in this way.

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[info]haikujaguar
2007-04-14 07:51 pm UTC (link)
Agreed.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]aburt
2007-04-14 08:26 pm UTC (link)
Also I don't see how Gresham's law applies here

Somebody (not me) should play Devil's Advocate and explain how Howard apparently views Gresham's Law as applying. (Sorry, not me, haven't time today -- but I do think it would make this a more useful exercise.)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]lavenderbard, 2007-04-15 12:30 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]haikujaguar, 2007-04-15 12:37 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cristalia, 2007-04-15 02:59 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lavenderbard, 2007-04-15 12:07 pm UTC
Nevertheless... - [info]haikujaguar, 2007-04-15 12:16 pm UTC
He's got it backwards - freebies INCREASE other authors' value - [info]aburt, 2007-04-15 01:44 am UTC
Re: He's got it backwards - freebies INCREASE other authors' value - [info]lavenderbard, 2007-04-15 01:25 pm UTC
Re: He's got it backwards - freebies INCREASE other authors' value - [info]aburt, 2007-04-15 02:56 pm UTC
Re: He's got it backwards - freebies INCREASE other authors' value - [info]lavenderbard, 2007-04-15 03:35 pm UTC
Re: He's got it backwards - freebies INCREASE other authors' value - [info]aburt, 2007-04-15 04:10 pm UTC

[info]douglain
2007-04-14 07:43 pm UTC (link)
Also should we not allow our books to be made available for free in libraries?

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[info]autopope
2007-04-14 08:03 pm UTC (link)
Librarians are just serial book pirates!

(Snerk ...)

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[info]al_zorra
2007-04-14 08:31 pm UTC (link)
Music biz as she were used to be was done in by the consolidation and greed of the distributorsm, who not content with doing in the indies and small labels, also refuse to handle anything that didn't sell on the level of Madonna.

Does that sound familiar?

And as far as freebie music went, it was the pirates biting the releases and getting 'em out on the street before they were in the stores.

And now there are no stores.

But there are download services.

Love, C.

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[info]pnh
2007-04-14 11:28 pm UTC (link)
"I think he went for the incendiary approach in order to get folks talking. "

Oh, baloney.

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[info]scalzi
2007-04-14 11:39 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, agreed. I suspect he went for the incendiary approach because he wanted to flip the bird to a lot of people who are doing something he doesn't like.

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(no subject) - [info]oneminutemonkey, 2007-04-15 12:16 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]scalzi, 2007-04-15 12:42 am UTC

[info]jonquil
2007-04-15 12:11 am UTC (link)
Out here among the pixel-stained technopeasants, we call that "trolling".

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]yendi, 2007-04-15 01:54 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]aburt, 2007-04-15 02:25 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]yendi, 2007-04-15 02:48 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]scalzi, 2007-04-15 03:21 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cmintz, 2007-04-15 04:53 am UTC

[info]nihilistic_kid
2007-04-15 04:28 pm UTC (link)
It worked. Though if he wanted a broader audience, he should have called Doctorow et al "webrapists."

Given the low state of class consciousness in the US at the moment, very many people don't quite get how significant it is to be called a scab.

Maybe [info]aburt can go tell Hendrix so he can fire off an addendum to his last word in which we can all be insulted in less uncertain times. Maybe something like "Rapists who eat their own shit" — if only there were a single word for such a concept!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]autopope, 2007-04-15 06:04 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]aburt, 2007-04-15 08:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]nihilistic_kid, 2007-04-15 08:43 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]aburt, 2007-04-15 11:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]phil_boswell, 2007-04-17 09:20 am UTC

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