Skyrender ([info]serpentgod) wrote in [info]roleplayers,
@ 2008-06-24 06:51:00
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Design Challenge: A World Without Spiders
This post is rated PG for mild Dungeons and Dragons Fourth Edition content. Reader discretion is advised.

Myself and several members of my gaming group suffer from varying forms of aversion to insects and arachnids. In my case, at least, it's bad enough that I have to avoid pages in books that contain pictures of the creeps; I can't even look at a picture without freaking. There, stage set.

I'd like to remove spiders entirely from my next game setting, but it's one thing to arbitrarily say "there's no such thing as spiders"; it's another to have their absence make sense. Spiders fill an interesting ecological niche in the real world; they're predators that prey on scavengers, they don't have any real predators of their own, and they can co-exist with humanity (if the humans can stand them). I can't fully grasp the impact that the simple absence of spiders would have from the world, and while there are other predators of small bugs (like bats), they don't fit quite the same profile.

Compounding this problem is that I've been considering setting my next game in D&D 4th Edition, specifically using the stock setting material... and there's a whole evil goddess and her pet race that's devoted to spiders. Tossing all of that out and distributing her domains among other evil gods is an option, but it seems like the most drastic approach. I'm wondering if there's a better way.

I'm currently toying with the idea of making Lolth the "Demon Queen of Bats" instead; bats do fill a similar niche, they're equally stealthy and love the underground, giant bats can be used as mounts, and heck, demons have bat wings! Seems like a good fit to me.

What I want to hear from you folks is - how would you remove spiders from a game world? What would replace them? What CAN replace them? Any other ideas you might have would be much appreciated.



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Wasps
[info]duc_de_duras
2008-06-24 01:10 pm UTC (link)
I'd go with Wasps being far more common. Maybe with <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mud_dauber>mud dauber's</a> being a good omen and the rest of wasps being bad. (Mud daubers are particularly docile and almost never sting, you can tell the difference between them because Mud daubers wings lay on their back rather than up when they land). Wasps prey on most of the pest and parasites that spiders also prey upon. (They also prey on spiders but you could knock that out if the spiders weren't eating the other insects).

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[info]tundra_no_caps
2008-06-24 01:11 pm UTC (link)
"aversion to insects, and spiders in particular."

Spiders are not insects, they're arachnids.

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[info]serpentgod
2008-06-24 01:27 pm UTC (link)
Text amended.

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[info]spiritmage788
2008-06-24 01:14 pm UTC (link)
I would just ignore all the ecological stuff and make Lolth the Demon Queen of X, such as bats, scorpions, snakes, or whatever.

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Make it the focus of your campaign
[info]trainerjonathan
2008-06-24 01:26 pm UTC (link)
Lolth is dead, she was the queen of spiders. She is killed and takes all the spiders with her.

Why, how, will it happen again?

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Re: Make it the focus of your campaign
[info]serpentgod
2008-06-24 01:30 pm UTC (link)
Oh, I like that. The death of their patron deity would wreak havoc on the drow, too. Definitely an option to consider.

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Re: Make it the focus of your campaign - [info]duc_de_duras, 2008-06-24 01:47 pm UTC
Re: Make it the focus of your campaign - [info]skiggaret, 2008-06-24 02:29 pm UTC
Re: Make it the focus of your campaign - [info]bittercupojoe, 2008-06-24 04:12 pm UTC
Re: Make it the focus of your campaign - [info]paka, 2008-06-24 05:47 pm UTC
Re: Make it the focus of your campaign
[info]bittercupojoe
2008-06-24 04:04 pm UTC (link)
The problem, of course, is that the sudden absence of a predator, like spiders, in an ecology makes for a massive shift in that ecology. Off the top of my head, far more flies, more crop failures due to insects, increase of certain other predators (like bats), but probably not enough to take up the slack, most likely. And in just bout every ecology, there are niche animals that only eat (and are only eaten) by other niche animals. Those will run rampant.

Of course, if the DM chooses to ignore this, they can; it's D&D, not a biology course. However, since the OP asked for impacts as well as possible solutions to the arachnophobia problem, it's worth pointing out.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: Make it the focus of your campaign - [info]inscrutable, 2008-06-26 05:38 pm UTC

[info]iceni
2008-06-24 01:30 pm UTC (link)
Maybe they were banished like the snakes in Ireland?

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[info]mahdi
2008-06-24 09:06 pm UTC (link)
Grrrrr.

No offense to you; that legend just burns my hide.

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[info]lederhosen
2008-06-24 01:46 pm UTC (link)
they don't have any real predators of their own

Er... lots of things prey on spiders. Birds, frogs, lizards, small snakes, small mammals, large insects, and other spiders, for instance.

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[info]klytus
2008-06-24 02:07 pm UTC (link)
Is this a world where spiders were recently eradicated, wiped out long ago, or simply never existed? Just think of all the havoc it would play with language where there were no metaphors or turns-of-phrase like "What a tangled web we weave" or "'Come into my parlor,' said the spider to the fly."

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[info]rollick
2008-06-24 02:09 pm UTC (link)
Personally, I'd come up with a cause, and make it (and the repercussions) part of the world. Lolth's death is an excellent example; alternately, all the spiders have gathered somewhere on or off your world with a creepy purpose in mind, or they were banished, or they were un-created, say, by a new god who also had an aversion to spiders and didn't realize the consequences.

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[info]apestyle
2008-06-24 02:32 pm UTC (link)
Gosh. I hate spiders too, which makes them the perfect creepy monster.

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[info]clayse
2008-06-24 03:09 pm UTC (link)
Opinion seconded! The creepier the monster, the more dramatic it is when you encounter it!

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[info]milwaukeesfs
2008-06-24 02:34 pm UTC (link)
Normal spiders are quite ubiquitous in the environment and it would be quite hard to imagine our ecology without them. However, there is no reason that GIANT or other monsterous spiders have to exist in any setting. In our world, large spiders such as "tarantulas" don't exist in colder climes. The D&D world isn't exactly a balanced ecology, so the only problem in removing them is, as you have noted, what to replace them with in game terms. Replacing the spider-themed monsters with something different (such as bats) of equivalent danger value is probably the easiest course, although you might have to tweak a bit to compensate for such things as venom. (Giant, venomous bats would be perfectly acceptable in my view in an Underdark kind of campaign--.)

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[info]uncacreamy
2008-06-24 02:56 pm UTC (link)
Okay, seriously, you don't need to redesign anything. Just ignore the spiders. I'm immensely spider phobic, to the same degree.. just don't focus on them. They can exist in the world without you even thinking about them or saying "there's a spider web on that plant!". There's a TON of other things to do in the monster manual, there's no need to even ever see a drow. Leave the background in there.. it's menacing, and you never ever have to focus on it.

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[info]cartoonlad
2008-06-24 03:00 pm UTC (link)
Heck, I'd just not even mention them. There's a ton of things in a game world that I don't mention in every game session: mosquitoes, maple trees, and monkeys -- and those are just some random words that start with the letter M.

If you spotlight the fact that there are no spiders in the world, there's a chance that your players will be all "What happened to the spiders?" "Where did the spiders go?" "Why are the spiders gone?" and suddenly your D&D game turns into SpiderQuest as they search out the meaning behind this nice, juicy mystery you presented to them and it's All Spiders, All The Time.

Instead of removing them entirely, I'd just sit down while you're talking about the game and say something like "Look, I hate spiders, Dave hates spiders, Lisa hates spiders, so even though there's a Demon Queen of Spiders and her servants love the spiders and there's spider-like monsters out there, our campaign won't be going anywhere near there. So we're not going to be encountering spiders anywhere in the game." And hopefully Dave and Lisa (and Shawn and Becky who don't suffer from arachnophobia) will be cool with that.

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[info]trooper6
2008-06-24 03:26 pm UTC (link)
About "realism."

There are a lot of things that would have realistically existed in our medieval fantasy world that gamers tend to ignore. Here's a list:

The plague
The effect of the lack of sewage systems on the lives of our heroes
Economics (especially inflation after these heroes stop by a town)
Feudalism
Dirt
Having to go to the bathroom
That Sleeping in Armor isn't really a good idea.
Racism/Sexism/etc (unless it is against Orcs)
Sex that leads to Pregnancy or STDs
Taxes and Tithes
Malnutrition
etc...

There is a LOT of stuff we just don't put in our medieval games (some folks do of course...and I always try to put feudalism in there for real)...and we never justify it or mention it. The world of D&D is clearly some sort of alternate reality world. And in your version of it, there never were any spiders...but there are rust monsters (or whatever).

No big deal.

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[info]terrycloth
2008-06-24 06:03 pm UTC (link)
I always thought it was unrealistic that games gave all sorts of penalties for sleeping in armor, when I've found actually sleeping in bulky padded gear really easy in real life.

And hey, if it can stop a sword blow, it can stop all the little sticks and rocks that would otherwise be poking you.

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(no subject) - [info]trooper6, 2008-06-24 07:46 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cpip, 2008-06-24 09:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]terrycloth, 2008-06-24 10:59 pm UTC

[info]kinnoryuu82
2008-06-24 03:38 pm UTC (link)
Spiders never evolved. Instead miniature gelatinous cubes slither across rooms and in caves.

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[info]bittercupojoe
2008-06-24 04:14 pm UTC (link)
That is fucking awesome.

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(no subject) - [info]ebony14, 2008-06-24 05:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]syntaxerror37, 2008-06-24 05:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]zdashamber, 2008-06-24 06:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]hwango, 2008-06-25 04:00 am UTC

(Deleted post)

[info]bittercupojoe
2008-06-24 04:14 pm UTC (link)
Man, that is just dickish. Why the hell would you do that to someone that just said they were afraid of spiders?

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(no subject) - [info]dwaleberry, 2008-06-24 04:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]azuresorrow, 2008-06-24 04:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dwaleberry, 2008-06-25 01:06 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]azuresorrow, 2008-06-24 04:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]apestyle, 2008-06-24 07:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]azuresorrow, 2008-06-24 07:22 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]apestyle, 2008-06-24 07:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]azuresorrow, 2008-06-24 07:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]apestyle, 2008-06-24 07:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]azuresorrow, 2008-06-24 07:28 pm UTC

[info]dwaleberry
2008-06-24 03:47 pm UTC (link)
"Spiders: We'd Probably All Be Dead Without Them
Why? Because spiders are the dominant terrestrial predators on the planet.
Why? Because there are so many of them. (An acre of English meadow in late summer has been estimated to contain more than 2 million spiders, and it's safe to assume that wetlands and undisturbed forest contain significantly more.)
Why else? They eat a lot.
So what? Because they structure insect communities wherever they occur, spiders play a vital role in the terrestrial food chain. Without all those hungry, carnivorous spiders, insect populations would explode, food crops would be decimated, ecological balances would be ravaged, and humans would probably starve within a matter of months."

http://nsdl.org/resource/2200/20061002152749782T


"* Spiders are the largest entirely carnivorous order of animals.
* Assuming an average consumption of 0.1 gram of prey per spider per day, the spiders in one hectare of forest would consume 47,500 kilograms of prey per year--which is equal to 47.5 metric tons of insects!

Their sheer number make spiders vital in maintaining the balance of nature. Because they structure insect communities wherever they occur, spiders play a vital role in the terrestrial food chain. Without all those hungry spiders, insect populations would explode, food crops would be decimated, and ecological balances ravaged. Humans would probably starve within a matter of months--if they hadn't already succumbed to various insect-borne diseases. No spider, incidentally, has been found to transmit disease."

http://www.amnh.org/sciencebulletins/biobulletin/biobulletin/story1073.html


"Man's best friend!

The spider is really man's best friend. Imagine a world over-run with flies. Life would be intolerable! Without our friend the spider eating other insects like the fly, many serious pests would rise in number and present humankind with an incredible problem - one which would seriously affect our chances of survival. Even the good old household spider, like the little one I have here, does his part. Imagine how much it would cost to develop tiny little robots to roam over your house and clean up the maggots, eggs, flies, larva and other living things hidden away in every crack and cranny throughout your home. The spider does it all for you, and all for nothing. Most times he even has the sense to stay out of the way when you are around. So if you want to keep the real pests down, tolerate the spider a bit more in your home. If you really cannot bear to have one in the room with you, go and fetch a glass, pop it over the spider before he runs for it, and slip a postcard or stiff bit of paper under the glass to temporarily seal it in. You can then turn the glass upright and with the card or paper still held on top, take it out into the garden and let it go. One deft flick of the glass low to the ground should do it."

http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/indexmag.html?http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/articles/nitemr3.html


Also: "Ecological impact of spider predation: a critical assessment of Bristowe’s and Turnbull’s estimates", here: http://www.conservation.unibas.ch/team/nyffeler/pdf/nyffeler2000bas.pdf


On a side note, having such a severe arachnophobia that you can't even look at mere illustrations and are thinking about excluding them from a roleplaying game (!) is a matter of serious concern. It would be advisable to perhaps seek professional therapy as the sheer abundance of these beautiful creatures will make it highly likely that your life will in more than one occasion be controlled by your irrational fear.

Edited at 2008-06-24 04:27 pm UTC

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[info]apestyle
2008-06-24 07:27 pm UTC (link)
Spider propaganda.

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(no subject) - [info]kergillian, 2008-06-24 07:31 pm UTC

[info]roseembolism
2008-06-24 04:51 pm UTC (link)
I say just use fairies. After all, there's something those tiny little winged gits are good for. make them massively voracious hunters, with a metabolism similar to hummingbirds, and make them come in all the same sizes, feeding habits, and habitats that spiders do.

For example:

"Fairies: We'd Probably All Be Dead Without Them
Why? Because fairies are the dominant terrestrial predators on the planet.
Why? Because there are so many of them. (An acre of English meadow in late summer has been estimated to contain more than 2 million fairies, and it's safe to assume that wetlands and undisturbed forest contain significantly more.)
Why else? They eat a lot.
So what? Because they structure insect communities wherever they occur, fairies play a vital role in the terrestrial food chain. Without all those hungry, carnivorous fairies, insect populations would explode, food crops would be decimated, ecological balances would be ravaged, and humans would probably starve within a matter of months."



See? No problem.

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[info]laserboy
2008-06-24 05:23 pm UTC (link)
Ooh, spinning off [in rather a tangent] from this, I like the idea that fairies and spiders are mortal enemies and are fighting a massive war completely under the radar of the average person... :-)

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(no subject) - [info]terrycloth, 2008-06-24 05:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]annelidsquisher, 2008-06-24 07:51 pm UTC

[info]syntaxerror37
2008-06-24 05:32 pm UTC (link)
Well, I would just go with various giant animals instead of giant spiders for any encounters. The regular spiders are there, but you don't have to mention them, any more than you mention the other mundane bugs in the background of your game world.

Lloth as the demon queen of bats actually sounds cooler to me than spiders. You can even replace the driders with drats, giving you an unholy forsaken abominations, that can fly!

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[info]roseembolism
2008-06-24 06:40 pm UTC (link)
And a perfect inspiration for a hero.

"Whooo ARE Youuuuu!"
"I'm Dratman."

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[info]captain_jester
2008-06-25 01:39 am UTC (link)
I understand you want your world to be different but unless you have a specific plot regarding why there are no spiders I would say that it's not hugely important. Just take them out and don't explain it, unless you point it out to players I doubt they would notice it.

If you really must remove spiders how about Corellon Larethian drove Lolth from this realm with all of her followers and spiders as well. As a result there are higher populations of other insectivores now but nothing hugely different.

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[info]hwango
2008-06-25 04:45 am UTC (link)
(deleted and reposted after I realized my hermit crab icon might be too bug-like)

I vote Never Existed - D&D's wacky ecology exists as it is without them. This shouldn't be a problem - if players can accept that D&D ecology works with every critter in our world plus an array of magical beasts, giants, dinosaurs, etc., then they should be able to accept an omission or two from the common stock of critters. If you'd prefer to have a replacement for them, I think the tiny gelatinous cubes suggested earlier sound pretty cool. Or you could have tiny birds, or tiny lizards. Sure, they wouldn't work in real life, but it's D&D. Make them Magical Beasts if you think it makes them more believable (which is a self-defeating sentence if ever there was one).

If it's important to you to keep Lolth, giving her bats instead sounds good to me. I don't think she'd project quite the same image if her totemic critter was tiny gelatinous cubes.

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[info]madrain
2008-06-25 02:15 pm UTC (link)
I think it depends on what the players find scary, who Lloth should govern. Me, I can't imagine a world where bats are scary. Even dire bats. So rather than come here, he should probably be having that particular discussion with his players.

Spiders never existed is the best option in my opinion, too, though. If the first thing I hear about a world is "Spiders were wiped out" or whatever, I'm going to wonder why, and probably create a PC that wants to investigate it. It's the explorer in me.

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[info]mediaprophet
2008-06-25 09:03 pm UTC (link)
Fill the niche.

Spiders do not exist. Fine. Replace them with...

...Something not as scary:
-A tiny mammal, like a miniature bat or ferret
-Insect-hunting diminutive faeries

...Something even more scary:
-A carnivorous fungus
-A kind of giant mosquito, like a Stirge, that devours insects and is dangerous to children
-A random plague that is destructive to insect life, like some kind of anti-locust.

...Something magical:
-Negative energy plane force that pushes through tiny holes in reality to destroy life. Small holes = small life (bugs). Large holes = decent CR monsters. E.g. "Things have always died here. Died for no reason other than that death is everywhere."
-An elemental that keeps the bug population down
-Something invented by "the ancients" that, as a side effect (or by design) kills insects. Without the insects to eat, spiders went extinct.
-A god of insects (other than spiders) that warred with the Spider Queen long ago and defeated her.

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[info]dwaleberry
2008-06-25 11:16 pm UTC (link)
A god of insects (other than spiders) that warred with the Spider Queen long ago and defeated her.

1. Spiders are not insects.

2. The general idea sounds neat. Make Lolth goddess of praying mantises. Like some spiders, they eat their males plus you got the whole "praying" thing going on, making them all the more suited to a goddess.

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[info]twentysides
2008-06-29 09:36 pm UTC (link)
Put post-its over any pictures of spiders, and don't bring them up at the table.

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