Sue ([info]wingedkami) wrote in [info]roleplayers,
@ 2006-12-22 00:34:00
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Advice needed on dealing with sexism
Having finally tracked down some tabletop RPers in my area, I got an invite to play in a new D&D 3.5 game that was about to start. The group consists of seven men, and me. I've been to two sessions so far and I'm really enjoying it apart from one thing.

Sexism.

It's not nasty or intentional sexism. I'm not dealing with Neanderthals here; they're all capable of dressing tidily and maintaining good standards of hygiene and some of them have girlfriends. Out of character they're great people, helping me out with the rules (I'm fairly new to D&D) without ever being patronising.

But I'm only the second female gamer they've ever met, and possibly the first most of them have ever played with, while I'm used to a group that's generally about 50% female. It's all a bit new. Most of it is just joking which doesn't really bother me - I'm well aware that female D&D players are something of a rare breed - but it all adds up. Especially the in-game events.

To begin with there's the setting. It's inspired by the Roman Empire although with some significant differences. And as far as I can tell so far, with the exception of my character Calia, every single woman in the place is a wimp.

In the first session the sister of one of the other characters was captured by slavers. We rescued her from being raped (although not all the other captured women) and took her along with us. It wasn't until halfway through the second session that I found out what her name was - or that she even had a name. And while Calia is treated pretty much the same as the rest of the party, the sister was effectively ignored except when she was crying, at which point she was treated as an irritation. Only one other character bothered to talk to her.

Calia has no ranks in diplomacy and a negative charisma bonus. She's blunt, bad-tempered and malodorous. She should not be the only one capable of comforting a frightened girl.

Women are a non-entity in this game. Calia's only an exception because she's got a player sitting behind her, and she's on the point of finding herself a stick and using it to hit any character who makes sexist comments.

I know there's plenty of people who've gone through this with much worse horror stories to tell, so does anyone have any advice to offer? Apart from this, I really like the game and the group. There's always the possibility things will just sort themselves out once they get used to having a woman around.

On the plus side, we're about to head into the Underdark. The day you can't find strong powerful women in the Underdark...


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[info]creativedv8tion
2006-12-22 01:02 am UTC (link)

I would approach the GM, privately, or through email or somesuch if you're not comfortable with 1-on-1 convos for some reason, and discuss your concerns.

Also, I don't see how you need ranks in diplomacy or a high charisma to be comforting a nearly-raped girl who has no name. A low CHA might make it harder, sure...

The thing is, I seriously doubt you'll get the other players to care about the non-entitiness of most women in the game. The only chance you have, I suspect, is by getting the GM to make the women characters more fleshed out/3D/etc. If he does, then the players may treat them differently.

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[info]joemorf
2006-12-22 01:04 am UTC (link)
I think that once you get over the simple fact that women are second class citizens, you'll be fine.

Hey, if the chainmail bikini fits, wear it...

Okay, seriously:

I wouldn't look to a Fantasy RPG, no matter how much it is supposed to resemble historic Rome, for strong female characters in a game run by men, unless those men are very good roleplayers. Most female characters you'll encounter will essentially be male characters in a dress, or the stereotype you described.

You may encounter the odd female character that satisfies your longing for strength... but most guys don't play fantasy RPGs to get in touch with their feminine side.

As far as the setting goes... certainly there were women with strength of character in those days, but if you're looking for legal rights, well... I'm afraid my first statement actually applies.

Bummer.

~j

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[info]clawfoot
2006-12-22 01:04 am UTC (link)
Do you think the players are being sexist and treating women as non-entities because the players themselves are sexist, or could it be that they're playing that way because in the game's setting, that's the norm?

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[info]creativedv8tion
2006-12-22 01:48 am UTC (link)

If it weren't for the whole the-nearly-raped-sister-didn't-have-a-name bit, I'd think there was some weight behind that.

I don't think it's sexism, per se, rather than not the deepest concerns about RP, storytelling and characterisations.

But then, she really didn't go into any details about the players or the quality of game, either. So, I'm pretty much speculating out my ass.

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[info]orbis_terrarum
2006-12-22 05:19 pm UTC (link)
"I don't think it's sexism, per se, rather than not the deepest concerns about RP, storytelling and characterisations."


I think this might be the heart of the matter, particularly if the DM sees women in his setting as being little more than possessions (which, if the setting is based on semi-historical Rome is not unreasonable).

In such a setting, even though women have next to no rights, that doesn't mean that there won't be strong women characters... these women just have to find ways to work within the system. Your character is one of these strong women, making her different and, I think, offering a lot of roleplaying opportunities once your group catches on to that theme. I also actually kind of like how even though your character is gruff and bad-tempered, it was her who had to comfort the girl -- since obviously none of the men would do it, true to form.

On the other hand, it could just be that the girl was a sketchily-crafted NPC. The fact that she didn't even have a name suggests to me that the DM may have included her simply as a plot device without thinking there would be much interaction with her. It happens to the best DMs from time to time!

Anyway, here's hoping the situation improves for you! :)

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]clawfoot
2006-12-22 01:06 am UTC (link)
Another question: could it be that they simply treat NPCs as non-entities, as they seem not to have a problem with your female character?

I've found that in certain groups -- if a character isn't being played by a person, they're simply not thought about and often forgotten.

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[info]azuresorrow
2006-12-22 01:11 am UTC (link)
Ditto here. I've found that in certain groups, NPCs have lesser value for some reason. I once played a character whose NPC girlfriend was afflicted by some malady (which had her essentially in a coma), and could be cured with a small sample of magic sand from the temple we were just in; alternatively, the malady would pass in two days.
My character made back to the temple, but the other players were like "Come on, let's just go already. We don't have time for this - you can just wait two days!"
ha.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]creativedv8tion, 2006-12-22 01:50 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]azuresorrow, 2006-12-22 02:39 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]creativedv8tion, 2006-12-22 02:45 am UTC

[info]azuresorrow
2006-12-22 01:06 am UTC (link)
I find it fascinating that there seems to be this ubiquitous "rape" fascination in gaming cultures outside of my own. In all of my long RP years, I have hardly ever encountered a rape scenario in an RPG. I can think only of two instances. But that's it - two instances among countless. I have seen posts in this community where people express that female characters played by females are often being raped, and that female characters playing male characters have even experienced their characters being polymorphed into females and raped. I just haven't encountered it very much in my experience, so I find it fascinating.
While I have played with a number of women, they are usually the minority in my gaming circles. There is usually a single female among a group of men. In one of our current games, we have one female player playing a male character. All of us are constantly saying "She" in reference to her male character, then quickly correcting ourselves "I mean, he." But I think that's more due to pronoun switching; a linguistic error.
I don't know, I know that this is a very vague response. Anyways, hope it gets better for you.

(Reply to this)(Thread)


[info]creativedv8tion
2006-12-22 01:45 am UTC (link)

I have seen posts in this community where people express that female characters played by females are often being raped, and that female characters playing male characters have even experienced their characters being polymorphed into females and raped. I just haven't encountered it very much in my experience, so I find it fascinating.

I'm glad I missed those posts.

But, I'm willing to suspect that the propensity you seem to have noticed is more a thing of online gaming as opposed to tabletop; after all, many people find freedom in online games (whether MU*, chat, forum, email, etc) to play characters they wouldn't dare in a tabletop setting, and oft times that leads to other explorations.

That, and there's just a lot of repressed men playing women in online games.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]cygnia, 2006-12-22 01:56 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]creativedv8tion, 2006-12-22 02:04 am UTC

[info]rubberninja
2006-12-22 03:38 am UTC (link)
Eh, I don't know about that. I've played quite a few games with quite a few people over the years and only really encountered one rape scene. Went kind of like...

"I rape her."

"Jeez. Are you sure?"

"Hey, we're playing evil characters this time around. It's not like its much worse than anything else anybody has done up to this point."

"Fine. You rape her."

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]simadrienne
2006-12-22 03:42 am UTC (link)
Would that it were only gaming. But I echo the people who suggest talking to the GM, and I hope the group is able to work things out.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]blue_cat
2006-12-22 07:04 pm UTC (link)
Hmm, my group didn't have it, but had 2 women and it came up once and T'Other female just came out and said it really really bothered her, she wasn't happy, and would no one ever run stuff like that. And rape has never come up again, even after she left the usual group.

Both of us usually played females, and a number of male players played females too (My D&D group is 50/50 in game but 2/8 out of game).

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[info]halfjack
2006-12-22 01:57 am UTC (link)
Take a session aside and have everyone watch I Claudius. With Livia as an example no one will assume Roman women are wimps again.

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[info]syhd
2006-12-22 02:55 am UTC (link)
Thank you for making the recommendation. I was about to say: this campaign is not very historically minded, because Rome was one ancient civilization where women could wield significant power, even though Rome projected a traditionally paternalistic image.

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(no subject) - [info]corradus, 2006-12-22 03:02 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]trooper6, 2006-12-22 03:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]corradus, 2006-12-22 03:42 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cygnia, 2006-12-22 04:03 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]entsuropi, 2006-12-22 02:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]trooper6, 2006-12-22 04:15 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]pyromancyr, 2006-12-22 08:05 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]corradus, 2006-12-22 02:55 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]pyromancyr, 2006-12-22 11:30 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]halfjack, 2006-12-23 12:52 am UTC

[info]wgptrey
2006-12-22 02:27 am UTC (link)
Have a quiet chat with the GM. If the GM is onboard with you (and may just be unaware of the problem), then you'll be just fine.

But this kind of thing happens all too often, I'm afraid.

Good luck!

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[info]evaleastaristev
2006-12-22 02:33 am UTC (link)
The last time I was in a game setting like that, my little halfling Rogue took to collecting pebbles and throwing them at party mates when they were being dumb/sexist/anything she didn't agree with. It was fun, and I turned the flavor of the game right around.

But that's not for everybody, and I was really close to the players involved.

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[info]trooper6
2006-12-22 02:45 am UTC (link)
First some questions, are the players more interested in male NPCs?
Did the brother PC not do much for his almost raped sister?
Are male NPCs more fleshed out?

If the GM and the players treat NPCs as 2D nobodies, then have a talk with the GM about making all of the NPCs more fleshed out.

If it is just the female NPCs, point out the discrepencies to the GM and ask him to flesh the women out as much as he's fleshed the men out.

Now here are other options...that could be done before the conversations happened.

Questions and in-character conversations.

For example, start asking the GM questions about the NPCs you come upon, questions that push toward deeper characterization.

In-character...I'll tell you what...if I were your character...especially a low-cha character, I would have been badgering the brother PC for not taking care of his sister. I would have called his honor into question..a lot. Have IC conversations with female NPCs...have IC conversations with the other PCs about the female NPCs.

You can do a bunch of work just through RP.

Let us know how it is progressing.

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[info]clawfoot
2006-12-22 03:53 am UTC (link)
I think this is the best advice yet. Tackle the problem both IC and OOC. I like the idea of you calling the brother's honour into question, and badgering him to take care of his family. That's gold.

(Reply to this)(Parent)


[info]corradus
2006-12-22 03:11 am UTC (link)
Talking quietly and gently to the DM is always a good idea for anything he does you don't like. Don't keep this inside - give him a fair chance to deal with it.

So often today people would rather 'vent' about something they don't like than confront it, and in the end that only ever makes it worse.

Something else I would like to mention...boys and girls often have trouble pretending to be the opposite gender. There are things about each other both sexes don't quite 'get'. Many gamers have (indeed many non gamers have) internalized gender roles given to them by the media and popular culture, especially males in their 30's who didn't get to see women in a lot of strong roles in fantasy or sci-fi, and even fewer who got to digest their strength because they were distracted by badly hidden pulchritude.

Modern media sadly is only doing a little better. Women are either tokens (like Arwen in LoTR) or are portrayed as emotionally wobbly (like the other lady in LoTR, Theodin's niece, her name escapes me) even if they are good fighters. We need to get back to the Ripley factor...Ellen Ripley was not sexy in the 2nd and 3rd Alien movies. She was strong and smart and brave - handsome but not sexy.

Women don't have to have gigashnoots and an apple butt to contribute something...

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[info]trooper6
2006-12-22 03:28 am UTC (link)
I'm a dude in my 30s...there were strong women out there...few and far between though. But certainly you are right...they aren't many Ripley's around. Few Sarah Connors. No Mrs. Peels. And they killed Tasha Yar.

"gigashnoots and an apple butt" -- that made me laugh.

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(no subject) - [info]cygnia, 2006-12-22 03:40 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]trooper6, 2006-12-22 04:18 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]cygnia, 2006-12-22 04:32 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]trooper6, 2006-12-22 10:11 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]entsuropi, 2006-12-22 02:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cygnia, 2006-12-22 06:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lederhosen, 2006-12-23 12:23 am UTC

[info]rubberninja
2006-12-22 03:44 am UTC (link)
Eh. The roleplaying problems I've been encountering lately have been just the opposite. The males of the group seem to have fairly well-rounded characters, whereas the females are all "rough gruff I-can-beat-a-man-at-his-own-game" nononsense types who get ultra-offended when its suggested they be more diplomatic (because, after all, women are often expected to be nice and the only way to be equal is if you do the complete and total opposite).

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[info]crowyhead
2006-12-22 03:22 am UTC (link)
This can be the toughest kind of thing to point out and work on, because it's not blatant, and I'm betting the GM and the other players probably don't even notice that they're doing it.

I'm pretty fortunate, in that I'm friends with the guys I game with, so I would feel comfortable saying, either before or after a session, "Hey guys, have you noticed that this is going on?" But if you're new-ish to the group, I can see how that would be awkward -- you don't want to come off as a complainer. So talking to the GM seems like a good step, as well.

It's not something a lot of gaming groups do, but I always think it's a good idea to have a conversation about places you as a player just don't want to go in a game. I mean, personally, I don't mind a bit of gritty realism, so a threat of sexual danger is fine in a game, but my GM knows that I'm really not interested or comfortable with having to fend off rape in-character. That's just not part of my fun, you know? So I like to have these conversations ahead of time, whether I'm a player or a GM.

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[info]lederhosen
2006-12-22 03:36 am UTC (link)
On the plus side, we're about to head into the Underdark. The day you can't find strong powerful women in the Underdark...

...is the day you find it full of scantily-clad dominatrixes who are divided into Redeemable Luv Interests and PMT Queens. :-(

I'd be inclined to give it a couple of sessions and then ask the GM something like this:

"Hey, I've been enjoying the game but I have a question about the setting. I've noticed that most of the female NPCs we meet are spineless wusses. Is that normal for the culture, or just coincidence? Also, aside from adventuring, what sort of occupations would women be likely to have?"

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[info]wingedkami
2006-12-22 07:43 pm UTC (link)
I did actually ask that question.

"How come every woman in the place is a drip except for me?"
"Because we only know two female gamers."

And thankyou everyone who's commented. I'll give it time to see if it's just a matter of letting them get used to having a woman around, and if that doesn't work I'll have a chat with the GM.

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(no subject) - [info]halfjack, 2006-12-22 08:03 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lederhosen, 2006-12-23 12:27 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]wingedkami, 2006-12-23 03:04 am UTC

[info]_cland3st1n3
2006-12-26 12:10 am UTC (link)
See, I've never ever had a problem like that.
Whe I started roleplaying, it was part of a friendship group.
The very first party I ever played in was three girls and one guy, which I know is very unusual.
The most outnumbered we've ever been is four guys to two girls.
Right now it's three by three.

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