The Kensho Agnostic ([info]pure_agnostic) wrote in [info]queerchoice,
@ 2006-07-01 11:42:00
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Current mood:just thinking aloud

attraction and queer-by-choice
I was wondering how many non-bisexuals identify as queer-by-choice.  I can imagine asexual, straight, gay, or lesbian persons calling themselves "queer-by-choice". Does that imply that queerness to them is not about attraction, and even not about a willingness to date others regardless of gender.  If there are any non-bi QBC folks out there, how do you describe your queerness?


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[info]queerbychoice
2006-07-01 06:47 pm UTC (link)
The entire lesbian-feminist movement of the 1970s was biphobic and queer by choice.

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[info]pure_agnostic
2006-07-02 12:26 am UTC (link)
I wouldn't say the entire lesbian-feminist movement of the 1970's was biphobic, but that surely was a major component of it.

I do remember reading when the saying "Feminism is a theory, lesbianism is a practice." was corrupted to "Feminism is the theory, lesbianism is the practice." Many lesbians encouraged women to become lesbians and hinted that they weren't feminist enough if they didn't. That didn't work out for a lot of women who wanted to be among other women, identified as feminist, but had no sexual attraction to women. To me, it seems more "queer-by-coercion" than "queer-by-choice".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesbian_feminism
http://womens-studies.osu.edu/araw/1970slf.htm#introduction

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[info]queerbychoice
2006-07-02 02:42 am UTC (link)
"I wouldn't say the entire lesbian-feminist movement of the 1970's was biphobic"

Yeah, upon further consideration, I agree that my sentence sounded like it was generalizing about every person affiliated with the movement, whereas what I meant was more that advocating not being bisexual (nor heterosexual either, of course) was one of the central principles that the movement was based on. And I don't believe that such advocacy inherently has to be biphobic (the "phobic" term implies an unwillingness to engage in reasoned debate about it, which wasn't always the case), although a considerable amount of it did seem to turn out that way.

"That didn't work out for a lot of women who wanted to be among other women, identified as feminist, but had no sexual attraction to women."

Your phrasing seems to possibly imply that you are arguing that these women were incapable of developing any sexual attraction to women, which I would dispute. But certainly I would agree that it isn't realistic to expect women to suddenly manufacture attraction to women on command. Some of these women were already in monogamous relationships with men, and others of them may simply not have currently known any women they actually got along with well enough for it to make any sense to date them - or at least no such women who just happened to be attracted to women and also single or otherwise romantically available. It takes time and patience to find a person to be meaningfully attracted to; a person is very unlikely to find her way into a good lesbian relationship if she's rushing to find a female partner just for the sake of proving to someone else that she qualifies as a real feminist.

"To me, it seems more 'queer-by-coercion' than 'queer-by-choice.'"

There were plenty of queer by choice women, though, and I doubt that efforts at coercing women to be queer by peer pressure (rather than coverting them by reasoned argument and letting them choose in an unpressured way) succeeded very often. So I'd say most of them were either queer by choice or straight by failed coercion (or, well, straight by the greater coercion of the mainstream society - that would certainly have also been a factor).

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[info]pure_agnostic
2006-07-02 05:46 pm UTC (link)
Your phrasing seems to possibly imply that you are arguing that these women were incapable of developing any sexual attraction to women, which I would dispute.
No, I was not implying that they were incapable, just that they had no sexual attraction at that time. Perhaps they would later, if they met the right person(s), but you already mentioned that. :-)

30 years later, I doubt we will ever get meaningful stats on how many participants in the lesbian-feminist movement were already lesbians, how many were queer-by-choice, how many were queer-by-coercion, and how many were straight. Because we will never truly know, I'm reluctant to assume that most were QBC or straight by failed coercion. (I'm apply the agnostic principle here: "If you don't know, then don't assume.")

I agree with you that many people assume they are straight because mainstream society promotes straightness as the norm, and subtle discourages people from considering same-gender attractions.

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[info]legolastn
2006-07-03 04:57 am UTC (link)
Uh...I don't think it's that subtle, actually.

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[info]krazyhippie
2006-07-01 09:17 pm UTC (link)
I'm lesbian and ID as qbc. I feel like I had a predisposition for being gay, but that I wouldn't have been completely miserable if I'd been able to keep ignoring it. I was in a 6 year relationship w/ a man and was happy the whole time, before I started letting myself open my mind and consider women as a possibility. Then I began feeling unfulfilled and scared that I might live my whole life w/o being able to explore that. We broke up for other reasons, but it was a chance for me to enter the world of women. And I LOVED it and never want to be w/ a man again. But I still ID as qbc because I was happy w/ him when I thought I was straight. I was happy w/ the sex, because I didn't know how much I'd like it w/ women. I had great orgasms w/ him, I was attracted to him. But I don't want men anymore. I've just grown and changed, but it's not like I was miserable and not enjoying men when I was w/ them. I did. So I feel like I had a predisposition for being gay, but that it was my choice to follow that. I don't by a long shot think all others, or even most, feel that way...I know many were always miserable and always knew it wasn't right for them, but that wasn't the case for me.

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[info]cinnazimt
2006-07-02 07:18 pm UTC (link)
I had a similar experience. I dated only men for a long while, and was very happy to do so. I knew I was attracted to women also. I started identifying as bi. When I started constantly competing for guys with a friend of mine I decided enough was enough, I didn't want the friendship ruined. Lesbianism seemed (at the time) a good way to preserve my relationships. It probably helped that most of the queer circles I was in were poly or at least pretty casual about hooking up, so there wasn't the same competition as in the straight circles.

I was definitely attracted to men and happy in at least one of my relationships, but I can't imagine going back to one. I still fantasize about them, sexually, but emotionally there's too much cultural baggage for me so I've gone completely lesbian, by choice.

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[info]embryomystic
2006-07-08 01:45 am UTC (link)
My mum's a lesbian, and though she didn't come out completely until I was 12, she always had friends who were lesbians, so I've known a lot of lesbians in my life. Sort of feel like a lesbian, culturally, though I don't really say that much, because it sounds like a ridiculous heteromacho joke, "huh huh, I'm a lesbian"/"If I was a chick, I'd totally be a lesbian". Anyway, I've met a number of lesbians who, once I was old enough to have conversations of that sort with them, would explain their sexuality similarly to how you just did. It's interesting. And used to bother me a bit as a kid, because I had crushes on most of them, and didn't really process that even if they did date men, they probably wouldn't be interested in me. Not dating men I understood. For all that I am attracted to some men, I don't generally date them. But I kind of live by a never-say-never philosophy when it comes to that, and I suppose I did even then.

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[info]cinnazimt
2006-07-09 01:04 am UTC (link)
I generally use the word queer to describe myself and avoid using "lesbian" or "bisexual" as they both seem false. Right now I'm in a monogamous situation but if I weren't, I guess it is possible I'd start dating men again.

I do get annoyed at myself sometimes for these choices. I spend a lot of my time trying to break down gender binaries and then throw this one up, artificially. I think I'd have the least amount of cognitive dissonance with an explanation like, "I'm mostly attracted to people who are resisting gender polarization" which would often mean an attraction to people who are resisting traditional sexual roles and would limit the number of heterosexual men I would date.

However, I don't think that accurately describes my attractions.

I'm annoyed by my own inability to come up with a line of thought and practice that aligns with my desires but...that's how it is for now.

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[info]legolastn
2006-07-03 06:25 am UTC (link)
I identify as gay, as queer, and as queer-by-choice. I get the impression that there are relatively few gay men who identify as such. I have not experienced the flexibility of attractions described by most people in this community, although I do find my attractions don't fall strictly along "male/female" lines. But I would say my identification as queer (and qbc) has more to do with my politics and worldview than attractions per se. OTOH, would I hold to such politics and worldview without the attractions? That is unknowable.

IMO attraction is part of the constellation of concepts that make up "queerness," but certainly not sufficient and probably not necessary. I also don't know that willingness to date others regardless of gender has been so much a central concept of queerness historically as willingness to date those of the same gender.

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