puerh_tea: Interesting article found

kibi_kibi (

kibi_kibi) wrote in

puerh_tea,
@ 2006-06-30 18:16:00

Interesting article found
I've stumbled upon a very interesting article on Pu-erh in Yi Wu in which the author (is she someone who is in this group?) really does illustrate a believable perspective on the reality of the many claims made that a tea is Yi Wu, such as

Quote from the article:

In recent years, the former [wild] in Yiwu has an annual production of 70 tonnes; the latter [plantation] 250 tonnes. However, the annual figure appearing in the market labeled Yiwu is no less than 3000 tonnes, and most are marked as from trees , which cannot easily be verified by a common consumer.

The more scary thing, but something one really could have guessed

Quote from the article:

In order to make all Puer tea products in Yiwu conform to a certain agreed standard, the policy prescribes that each unit in the Puer tea industry should be of a certain scale, mainly referring to the size of production; those businesses producing on too small a household scale should close down.

But as far as I know, firstly, the recent fame of Yunnanese Puer tea is largely due to Taiwan tea traders who have stock-piled a lot of aged and good-quality Puer tea-bricks, thus stimulating the demand for Puer tea from Yunnan, and subsequently influencing various big cities in China besides Kunming, the capital of Yunnan.

My (

kibi_kibi) final words. Is the solution $50+ cakes produced by Taiwanese collectors? It's up to everyone to make up their mind - I certainly don't think so!

(Post a new comment)

davelcorp
2006-06-30 06:45 pm UTC (link)

Kibi,
Great find! Where is this article from?

This provides some answers for questions I've had for a while regarding production methods and the quality of life for producers. However, I can't say that there is a clear cut argument for or against Taiwan's/Hong Kong's involvement.

The quote you pulled out about the changing production methods is about changes made by the local government. While the foreign interest in puer may have prompted this reaction, it is also the $50+ cakes made by Taiwanese collectors that are preserving the old methods and small productions. The article also points out that the price of mao cha has risen exponentially over the years -- the rise in price goes directly to the farmers and producers.

Since I don't read Chinese, I can only follow the market from anecdote and the occasional english language source. However, from what I get from reading between the lines, is that in Taiwan, etc, there is competing viewpoints and perspectives on puer. Some are guilty of mass stockpiling and obfuscation of information. Others are interested in preservation of culture and production of the highest quality. Most, probably, fall somewhere in between. If $50+ guarantees accurately labeled products, no pesticides, a wonderful taste, good aging potential, and more money in the farmer's pocket -- well, I'll spend $50. Especially if a $5 cake means fraudulent claims, pesticides, quick and easy production methods, and factory production.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	kibi_kibi 2006-07-02 06:05 pm UTC (link)
	I know we probably don't agree on this point; but there are plenty good cakes avaliable a lot cheaper produced in similar ways but not with the same "premium" tone to them and obviously using mao cha from other areas rather than Yi Wu or Lao Banzhang. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

davelcorp
2006-07-02 06:30 pm UTC (link)

I know we probably don't agree on this point; but there are plenty good cakes available a lot cheaper produced in similar ways but not with the same "premium" tone to them and obviously using mao cha from other areas rather than Yi Wu or Lao Banzhang.

I whole hearted-ly agree, and those are teas that I try and buy/drink. I am also weary of teas that come with a premium price. In the past few months I have had the chance to taste samples of teas that come with a hefty price when purchased new. Some of them have left me feeling insulted by the price tag, most of them have been quite nice, but only one has been so nice that it prompted me to lay down the cash.
As I've said previously, I have spent quite a bit of time buying cakes indiscriminately, and as a result my collection has quite a bit of tea that I am not in love with. Recently, I have tried to slow down a bit and purchase only tea that 'speaks' to me. Some of this is quite affordable -- some is quite pricey.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) -

kibi_kibi, 2006-07-02 11:13 pm UTC

bearsbearsbears
2006-06-30 06:51 pm UTC (link)

Thank you for the article. It's a very interesting read. I read similar figures elsewhere--a link from Mike P.'s site?--about how much pu'er farmers actually produce from the "zhengshan" trees and bushes every year versus how much is sold as being from this or that mountain.

I wonder if I will have to travel to the very villages myself to get the best tea, rather than indiscriminately labeled tea.

Another interesting quote in the article was the orders for tea that specifically lacks production date labeling. Chinese businessmen are such crooks.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

phyll_sheng
2006-06-30 08:36 pm UTC (link)

Yes...those bastardos! BUT it's the lack of regulation and enforcement that is to blame for the seemingly rampant fraud within the tea industry. All men -- Chinese or not -- are by nature self serving. There is a lot that the tea industry can learn from the Western wine industry about strict regulations and adherence. Even a wine layman can be assured of getting an authentic bottle of wine, cheap or expensive...oh, maybe except in the case of buying a bottle of Chinese red wine. But for a tea layman (like me), Oy...the so called moronic "tuition" fee is gonna be high.

Kibi2, a very insightful article. Thank you for sharing!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(Anonymous)
2006-07-01 01:05 am UTC (link)

That fact is the western opinion on pu-erh tea and what standards or process or any other things means very little. If you don't buy pu-erh it does not affect their market or profit margin. Westerner's are usually generalised as the people who buy the less spend the less and complain the most, so who would want to biz with them. Asian's are not just "getting into" pu-erh its been around awhile as you all know. There are already people from all over Asia, conniosseurs from Korea, Japan, Malaysia, HK, Taiwan, Singapore, etc. lining up to buy quality pu-erh at prices westerners wont touch because they know its worth to them and they know how to judge from experience which may have cost them more money but it gave them understanding instead of hear say. Do you really think that these people who live breath, eat and think tea do not know the issues addressed? Who do you think is behind the revival in better quality and organics, and who's money you think supports these endeavors? Certainly not the western market, who wouldn't think twice over buying a 50$ bottle of primo wine but hesitate when it comes to a quality cake. The bottom line for the high pricing and fakes is demand and the demand is not steaming from a couple of online forums in the USA but from a movement in Asia that has been alive before us all. Cloudwayfarer

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) -

phyll_sheng, 2006-07-01 09:44 am UTC

phyll_sheng
2006-06-30 09:10 pm UTC (link)

"Secondly, the over-use of pesticide in tea shrub planting is a common problem on many tea plantations. Even if it is true that “the older the better”, what is the point of storing for ages a raw brick which might have come from a plantation where pesticides have been over-used?"

Newbie question alert! The above statements worry me the most. How can we be sure that we are not ingesting dangerous pesticides into our body? Tea is healthy and full of antioxidant etc, but I think we'll die younger drinking pesticide-laced tea, won't we? Is total disregard of consumer safety also rampant in the tea industry, especially in the increasingly popular pu-erh industry?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

(Anonymous)
2006-06-30 09:40 pm UTC (link)

But as far as I know, firstly, the recent fame of Yunnanese Puer tea is largely due to Taiwan tea traders who have stock-piled a lot of aged and good-quality Puer tea-bricks, thus stimulating the demand for Puer tea from Yunnan ...

We only need a little common sense to read between the lines:
Pu-erhs are produced in Yunnan, stored in HK, the trade is blossomed in Taiwan. During HK's return to China in 1997, lots of pu-erhs were liquidated to Taiwanese as HK people wanted to move out of HK. That is the historical reason, plus the economy boom in Taiwan during that time, combined to contribute to the blossom of Pu-erh culture in Taiwan.

Isn't it funny: people wanted to liquidate their teas, and Taiwanese bought them. Now people blame Taiwanese for "stockpiling" them? Who ever research and preserve the pu-erh culture as much as Taiwanese?

To be honest, had Taiwanese not unveiled the magic and refined the culture, "pu-erh" would not have the status we are seeing today. And Yunnan farmers would still sell their mao cha for $0.5/kg - or just cut down the tea trees as burning woods.

Yunnan has been producing pu-erhs for hundreds of years, HK has been drinking and trading pu-erhs for also hundreds of years (at least since late Qing)... why did not they promote and refine the pu-erhs to the same heights?

Guang

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

phyll_sheng
2006-06-30 10:49 pm UTC (link)

Is that the industry's viewpoint and tone in general: that Taiwanese are to be blamed for the current state of pu-erh market? Otherwise, I don't quite see why you went on this defensive and nationalistic tangent, Guang. The article merely says that the demand and, thus the fame, of pu-erh is largely driven by Taiwanese and Hongkong traders/collectors. Reading between the lines, this is *not* a bad thing, right? Everybody wins. The fact that good puerh costs a lot is the result of supply/demand of the free market, which is to be expected.

Or am I missing something here?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) -

psychopuncture, 2006-06-30 11:48 pm UTC

(Anonymous)
2006-07-01 12:48 am UTC (link)

Guang nice points, broad statements like chinese business are such crooks, or taiwanese are charging too much are made out of ignorance, and should not be generalised. Where would you all be in the pu-erh world without them. Consider blaming yourselves, for it is an ignorant consumer that promotes the buying of pesticide ridden teas or 'fake pu-erh', first become educated then buy, just as the wine trend did before. The reason its harder to get away with making 'bad' wine is too many people are already knowledgeable about what good wines taste like. Therefore Guangs points hold very true that forgeign investment Taiwan or otherwise have protected and promoted the art of pu-erh making. Just make sure those vendors you are buying from have a good record of protecting the land and peoples where pu-erh comes from. Smaller processing makes for better pu-erh and foreign investment curtails the governments attempt to maximise everything. It is up to us all to become more knowledgeable about what we consume for only this will improve the situation. There is a different in business between already old pu-erh and newly made cakes. One will only be able to understand the possiblities of young cakes by drinking genuine older cakes. If you are uncertain as to what is real or fake, find who you trust that knows and listen and learn instead of groping in the dark trying to grasp the whole picture. I have lived in Taiwan on and off since 1993 and i know there are many people there very dedicated to tea, its production and art not for just profit but for the pure love and graciously share their knowledge. Respect, Yun Yo Shi Hai

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) -

bearsbearsbears, 2006-07-01 01:02 am UTC

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-07-01 01:06 am UTC

(no subject) -

marshaln, 2006-07-01 01:57 am UTC

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-07-01 02:07 am UTC

back on track... -

davelcorp, 2006-07-01 02:51 am UTC

Re: back on track... -

kibi_kibi, 2006-07-01 09:12 am UTC

(no subject) -

phyll_sheng, 2006-07-01 06:14 am UTC

	davelcorp 2006-07-01 02:54 am UTC (link)
	In the spirit of returning to the original discussion: What do you think would happen if the Taiwanese pulled out of Yunnan? Would things return to the old way and everybody would be happy? Somehow, I doubt it. Nothing is simple. (Reply to this) (Thread)

(Anonymous)
2006-07-01 03:01 am UTC (link)

Dave. Good summary, i agree with you. Nothing is simple and if one is not closely involved in what is really happening in YunNan its hard to make assumptions. I think the increased interest can only be good for the qaulity of pu-erh. But what i would really like to see, is also the local tribes being more involved in small scale pu-erh manufacturing and letting some of all the money being made off of their ancestors invention be used to help better their lives, their land and preserve their beautiful way of life and process. Fair trade.
Matthew, 'Yun You Si Hai'

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

houde
2006-07-01 04:11 am UTC (link)

A-ha! Finally not an "Anonymous" member anymore!

Though Taiwan started the craze of pu-erhs, but in the end it is just a small island. Now China/Malaysia has successfully took over the role to continue the blossom of pu-erh trade, IMHO we are seeing just the emerging of a real big wave.

But all the glitterings are not without pain. Sometimes Yunnan farmers put down their old houses and old tea trees so they can build new concrete buildings, as they finally have the money to fulfill their dream.

Over-use of fertilizers and pesticides is a serious problem, Everybody wants quick quick money.

Counterfeit problem is also very bad (as it has been since Qing dynasty!) - even a small brand like Yan-Ching Hao has faked cakes in Malaysia and GuangZhou.

One famous company which "rent" the J*ngM*i area from the local government as their base for organic-certified plantation is haivng difficulty: farmers "smuggle" their harvested leaves outside J*ngM*i to sell for a better price.

Things are quite turbulent - or we can say very dynamic. There may be some hiccups in the near future, but I have strong faith in the future of genuinely good pu-erhs : )

Guang

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) -

cloudwayfarer, 2006-07-01 04:23 am UTC

(no subject) -

houde, 2006-07-01 04:42 am UTC

(no subject) -

phyll_sheng, 2006-07-01 06:25 am UTC

(no subject) -

bearsbearsbears, 2006-07-01 07:19 am UTC

(no subject) -

kibi_kibi, 2006-07-01 09:27 am UTC

I dont think a true collector would stop -

walt_park, 2006-07-01 04:46 pm UTC

Re: I dont think a true collector would stop -

kibi_kibi, 2006-07-01 04:53 pm UTC

Re: I dont think a true collector would stop -

thsu, 2006-07-01 06:12 pm UTC

thsu
2006-07-01 05:28 am UTC (link)

There should be no finger pointing to Taiwanese, Hong Kongnese. Taiwan investors in Yunnan for the recent 20+ years help educate the locals (Tribes) to learn about new technology in agriculture and tea farming. Like the Hong Kong traders before the Culture revolution, which I may add, develop the Cooked method and promoted it to a higher level. Foreign investor provides, donates and build schools for children and stabilize / improve their lives.

Now, the new generation benefitting the fruitful results and local farmers/vendors turned entrepreneur giving back to the community. Taiwan and Hong Kong customers (Western Countries are such small portion to the scale) are no longer big buyers, instead the biggest buyer are Main-Land Chinese and the Korean. This is just the full circle of trade. Which at the end, improving the living or the tribes communities. Maybe less ancient trees will be chopped for fire woods.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	marshaln 2006-07-01 08:04 am UTC (link)
	Yes, I agree, the wave now is mostly mainlanders. When I talk to tea merchants in HK they keep telling me that mainland buyers come and snap up all the good stuff. THey want it, at whatever price, and there'll be takers in the mainland. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) -

houde, 2006-07-01 01:10 pm UTC

(no subject) -

phyll_sheng, 2006-07-01 08:10 pm UTC

(no subject) -

cloudwayfarer, 2006-07-02 02:40 am UTC

(no subject) -

phyll_sheng, 2006-07-02 07:00 am UTC

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-07-02 07:38 am UTC

(no subject) -

phyll_sheng, 2006-07-02 05:36 pm UTC

(no subject) -

cloudwayfarer, 2006-07-03 09:45 pm UTC

(no subject) -

davelcorp, 2006-07-02 07:10 pm UTC

organic and bio -

cloudwayfarer, 2006-07-03 09:49 pm UTC

(no subject) -

phyll_sheng, 2006-07-03 03:10 am UTC

Do we know what kind of pesticides are being used?

walt_park
2006-07-03 12:50 am UTC (link)

Like.. do we know if what they're using is dangerous for human consumption?

Just wondering.. Like.. I wouldnt swallow RAID, but then we use alot of pesticides in the US, some of which are not necessarily going to hurt us. Like.. copper doesnt hurt humans, since alot of times our pipes are copper, but it will kill alot of invertebrits.

Also.. some stuff breaks down over time, so ageing might be a way to make it safe.

It would be nice to know what's being used to know how hurtful it might be.

I'm not saying I prefer to drink a pesticide, I'm just wondering what kinds we're dealing with.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Do we know what kind of pesticides are being used?

kibi_kibi
2006-07-03 12:58 am UTC (link)

I'd like to know aswell; but does anyone really know? But the main thing is anything like that will spoil the taste - even cholorine treated water here is so bad I am forced to use cheap bottled.

Another thing that may of concern is that many pesticide, herbicide or even fertilisers used by unknowledgable small farmers can lead to local water pollution and all sorts of serious health problems for the local population.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Do we know what kind of pesticides are being used?

houde
2006-07-03 03:41 am UTC (link)

Very glad that the key question was finally asked.

I am not as optimistic as Seb/Jing regarding the problem of improper use of pesticides/herbicides/fertilizers.

I agree that high-elevation wild or semi-wild tea growing regions have less pesticides problems. But the answer is not the romantic "bio-dynamic" farming. It is a simple economic decision: (1) for a long time those regions have no economic values, why spent $$ to buy pesticides? (2) even now, the very spread-out growing condition means people have to use a lot more chemicals to achieve same effect as in modern high-density plantations.

Most pesticides/herbicides will be decomposed (break-down) in the environment eventually - but how long? Some may leave heavy metal that can stay for a really loooong time. So the question is : "how soon will this chemical be decomposed"?

What really worries me the most is not that the tea farmers use chemicals or not, it is "do the farmers have enough knowledge to properly handle the chemicals?"

For example, a quite popular pesticides being used in Taiwan, called Mei Wen Son (Mevinphos), has a short half-live like 3 or 4 days. It will be totally break down in 2 weeks. So the farmers need to schedule the use of Mei Wen Son at least 2 weeks before harvesting.

From several news outbreaks regarding the improper/over use of banned chemicals (like DDT, BHC, chlorobenzo, organmercury, etc) in China, mostly due to the lack of knowledge of the chemicals. I don't think if the farmers really know better alternatives, they would still want to risk their own lives (they are the first to inhale/touch those chemicals).

Overuse of N-fertilizer can cause the accumulation of nitros-amines in leaves. That is a bad carcinogen - and it may leave a slight pungent smell/taste in liquor.

So, equip yourself with knowledge : )

Guang

ps. hope I don't anger anyone by saying things above...

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Do we know what kind of pesticides are being used? -

kibi_kibi, 2006-07-03 03:56 am UTC

Re: Do we know what kind of pesticides are being used? -

phyll_sheng, 2006-07-03 06:43 pm UTC

(no subject) -

cloudwayfarer, 2006-07-03 10:03 pm UTC

(no subject) -

houde, 2006-07-05 04:52 pm UTC

	Re: Do we know what kind of pesticides are being used? cloudwayfarer 2006-07-03 09:52 pm UTC (link)
	What we are dealing with is most likely the bad stuff meaning, stuff not allowed to use in the USA and i would not hope that it breaks down over time, its its tainted stay away. People like us concerned about it are whats affecting the market , so stay concerned and buy wisely. By buying very old pu-erh buying certified and having the tea tested. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	Re: Do we know what kind of pesticides are being used? cloudwayfarer 2006-07-03 10:51 pm UTC (link)
	Sorry did not answer qustion directly. No i do knot know specifically what psticides are being used, though one could find out pretty easily i'm sure, even online. But does it matter? Any kind of unnatural pesticide is not good for tea or anthing for that matter in my opinion. (Reply to this) (Parent)

Gentrification

hobbesoxon
2006-07-05 09:58 am UTC (link)

First of all, thank you very much to

kibikibi for linking the article; it's a great read. As I sit here contemplating my own research, I wonder how some people get all the luck and get to do PhDs on the subject of pu'er tea (as is the author of that article)!

Wherever there is a market without strict controls, there will inevitably be exploitation. As is often highlighted, there's not a huge amount of control on quality in Chinese goods.

This was particularly brought home to me by my mother-in-law, in Henan province. She cannot buy "black wood ear" (a dark fungus often used in cooking) because adding black dye to improve its appearance is commonplace in growers. She knows people that have suffered food poisoning from toxic bleaches added to rice in order to improve their whiteness - and this is in China's most populous province.

I'm always very, very wary of the quality of Chinese goods, but often, as Guang rightly says, there is no way to find out. Buying "organic", or paying a higher price, can help, but tends to be no guarantee.

Like one of the posters above, I would love the European "AOC" / "DOC" system to catch on in Mainland China. These don't just protect the name of the product (as in, "champagne" has to come from the Champagne region, "Tomme de Savoie" has to come from the Savoie), but also specify production standards: fertilisation, fermentation timings, quality and sourcing of ingredients, and so on.

I think we're a long way away from having an AOC Yiwu pu'er, as the article illustrates when it mentions that 3000 tonnes per year of "Yiwu" tea is alleged to have originated from a region that can produce only 320 tonnes per year.

Several Taiwanese friends of mine (some in tea resale, some just hobby drinkers) have indicated a preference for not drinking pu'er, simply due to the prevalance of uncontrolled, aggressive fertilisation methods. They say that pu'er is the tea which "accumulates residue in the body". Certainly, pu'er isn't unique in that, but in low-mountain teas, as several other posters have described, its a common danger.

What can we do? I am not inclined to agree that the majority of pesticides can be detected by taste or appearance alone. Much of the time, it really is a matter of faith. Contextual information is often all we have to go on: price, "organic" status (if any), or reputation of the buyer, but you can imagine how unreliable these indicators are.

I don't think there's a right answer, until we see some "gentrification" of Mainland China's produce markets, and that can't come until there's sufficient money, and demand. Has it reached that stage yet, in an industry for which demand only escalated around twenty-five years ago? Hard to tell. Like everyone else here, I watch with held breath. :)

Toodlepip,

Hobbes

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	Re: Gentrification phyll_sheng 2006-07-06 02:11 am UTC (link)
	That is a very well thought out and well-written opinion, Hobbes. Everybody should be like your mom (informed). However in the grand scale of thing, it is impossible to expect all consumers to be as informed. I believe the author was/is doing a project on pu-erh for her PhD in Anthropology. Not specifically a PhD in pu-erh. (Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: Gentrification

kibi_kibi
2006-07-06 02:34 am UTC (link)

Who knows; I am doubtful whether such a "natural" product can really be severely polluted but it's impossible to test unless you have a lab handy. I doubt that gentrification will do anything, as indicated by a few people above there is hope that the aged Pu-erh market will crash and everything may just settle out to a more natural flow, this is what I am hoping for at least , but it's unlikely to happen soon.

One side of me wants to agree with you on the controls on production area; but the more logical side prevails in saying that I feel it doesn't matter - I prefer to judge each tea on it's own merits. It is sometimes nice to know that a tea is unblended or blended, but these days a lot of factories are quite upfront about the blending and percentage in their Yi Wu cake etc.

I've often noticed that Chinese products at the Chinese supermarkets in Manchester often have lots of additives, even the dried fruits have a few things I'd rather not eat. But alas with dried fruit most European origin is also sulphided that makes it taste like a chemistry lab, unsuphided fruit is rare and very tasty.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Gentrification -

hobbesoxon, 2006-07-06 04:30 pm UTC

Thank you

jinghong
2006-07-19 06:25 am UTC (link)

Hello Kibi

Thank you so much for reading the article written by me and sharing with others.Yes, I am from Yunnan, and am doing my PhD at Australian National University, with Puer tea as the research topic in the discipline mainly of Anthropology.

May I ask through what channel you found this reading? I am really happy to see that it evokes so many discussions about Puer tea.

Puer tea is becoming popular, and meanwhile controversial, which is the main reason that I choose it as the research topic. I can see one major concern from your discussions: worries about the employment of pesticide or other chemical things. Here comes one parodox of Puer tea itself: its popularity lies partly in its good physical effect on health, but now its fate is in danger and its physical effect is possibly going toward the opposite way because of the over-used and improper employment of chemical things. But may I ask why there are still plenty of Puer tea consumers or fans although with knowing that there might be something bad in it. I ask this because I am trying to explain via various aspects why and how Puer tea becomes popular.

As a researcher on half way, I haven't found enough to declare that pesticide is being widely used on Puer tea, which actually is a problem not only for Puer tea but also for other teas and other crops as well. On the contrary, I'd like to recommend one statement that the pesticide residue of Yunnan tea is low based on the following reasons (translated and cited from Shi Kunmu,2005, Jingdian Puer [The Scripture of Puer]. Beijing, Tong Xin Chubanshe.P9):
1.The local transportation is not good enough for carring pesticide and fertilizer.
2.The wide tea plantation of Yunnan provides more supply than the actual demand, which means pesticide is not in urgent need to help production.
3.Pesticide or fertilizer investment does not fit the economic capability of locals.

Anyway, this is just one statement. Look forward to commonicating with you more.

Jinghong

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	Re: Thank you kibi_kibi 2006-07-19 09:08 am UTC (link)
	This seems really interesting, you are much better off probably posting these questions in a separate topic on the group! Then people will be able to give their views as most people will have forgotten. I found the article by searching "yi wu" or something similar on google. (Reply to this) (Parent)

Username:		Create an Account Forgot your login or password? Login w/ OpenID
Password:
	Remember Me
	English • Español • Deutsch • Русский…

About

Help

Get Involved

Legal

Store

LJ Labs