question_girl ([info]question_girl) wrote in [info]philosophy,
@ 2006-12-09 20:13:00
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Naturalism...the finer details
Besides having science as the main explaination for humans and the world, what else does naturalism entail? What else do MODERN philosophers of naturalism believe in?


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[info]rogerdr
2006-12-10 12:36 am UTC (link)
Besides humans and the world, what else is there to explain?

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[info]epictetus_rex
2006-12-10 12:50 am UTC (link)
Everything that isn't those two things! Duh.

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[info]i_muad_dib
2006-12-10 03:01 am UTC (link)
What else is there besides life and the Universe ?

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[info]chops_a_must
2006-12-10 05:12 am UTC (link)
Lol. Yeah, I'm sure Zola was a nazi.

I don't know enough about contemporary naturalists, but thought they used genetics as an explaining tool, rather than science as a whole. But also were believers in theories of realism.

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[info]beachofdreams
2006-12-10 05:24 am UTC (link)
Homosexuals evil? Ought to be burned at the stake? On the contrary, they present the best form of birth control, something that I think is in order if we are naturalists concerned with preserving the Gaia earth system.

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[info]anosognosia
2006-12-10 06:56 am UTC (link)
Naturalism doesn't mean anything in particular, other than that its invoker wants to avoid debate about what constitutes nature by identifying nature fundamentally with whatever views they happen to hold.

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[info]zentiger
2006-12-10 07:20 am UTC (link)
I agree, but mostly I have to tell you I approve of that icon.

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[info]hollowman
2006-12-10 07:45 am UTC (link)

Naturalism is basically interchangeable with amterialism, as far as I can see. There's nothing very mysterious about what it means.

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[info]hollowman
2006-12-10 10:01 am UTC (link)

Hmmm... nope. Naturalism is basically just a form of materialism, focused specifically on explaining phenomenon through non-supernatural means.

I dunno what you think is wrong there.

>>That's because you're an idiot.<<

You are becoming boring. I don't feel the need to point out what an idiot you are after your infinite and poorly considered pseudo-troll posts; your need to call me an idiot after even the most prosaic of statements is just bewildering.

Did I somehow have sex with your girlfriend or something?

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(no subject) - [info]hollowman, 2006-12-11 03:55 am UTC

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(no subject) - [info]hollowman, 2006-12-11 05:24 am UTC

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(no subject) - [info]hollowman, 2006-12-11 05:53 am UTC

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(no subject) - [info]hollowman, 2006-12-11 09:28 am UTC

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(no subject) - [info]hollowman, 2006-12-11 02:00 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]hollowman, 2006-12-11 05:24 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]anosognosia, 2006-12-11 08:55 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]hollowman, 2006-12-11 09:34 am UTC

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(no subject) - [info]hollowman, 2006-12-11 02:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]anosognosia, 2006-12-12 08:24 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]hollowman, 2006-12-13 03:11 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]anosognosia, 2006-12-12 07:32 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]hollowman, 2006-12-13 01:54 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]rogerdr, 2006-12-11 09:54 am UTC

[info]anosognosia
2006-12-10 12:53 pm UTC (link)
Your equation of supernatural with nonmaterial is exactly an illustration of my original point.

Beyond this canard, the notion of distinguishing naturalism from supernaturalism reduces the former to sheer triviality. Who, after all, champions supernaturalism?

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(no subject) - [info]paulhope, 2006-12-10 09:55 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]anosognosia, 2006-12-10 09:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]paulhope, 2006-12-10 10:17 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]anosognosia, 2006-12-10 10:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]beachofdreams, 2006-12-10 10:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]anosognosia, 2006-12-10 10:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]beachofdreams, 2006-12-10 10:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]paulhope, 2006-12-10 10:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]anosognosia, 2006-12-10 10:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]paulhope, 2006-12-10 10:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]anosognosia, 2006-12-10 10:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]paulhope, 2006-12-10 10:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]anosognosia, 2006-12-10 10:52 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]paulhope, 2006-12-10 11:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]beachofdreams, 2006-12-11 02:11 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]anosognosia, 2006-12-11 02:53 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]beachofdreams, 2006-12-11 04:09 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]anosognosia, 2006-12-11 04:16 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]beachofdreams, 2006-12-11 04:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]hollowman, 2006-12-11 04:16 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]anosognosia, 2006-12-11 04:22 am UTC

[info]jeffrock
2006-12-10 07:03 am UTC (link)
Marrying science to naturalism is a philosophical predjudice and is in no way a necessary condition of the scientific method.

That being said naturalism is more or less equivalent to materialism in that proponents of naturalism tend to be motivated either by the belief that 1) the material world is all that exists or 2) that the material world, if it isn't all that exists, at the very least is causally closed.

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[info]hollowman
2006-12-10 10:08 am UTC (link)
>>The difference is that naturalists will claim that there is a 'natural explanation' (simplified) to the existence of the mind while materialists will say that the thing we call 'mind' is double-vision for 'brain'.<<

Hmm. What is their non-physical yet natural explanation for the mind? I'm not sure I know what "natural" means in the context of immaterial entities/sentience interacting with the physical world.

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[info]paulhope
2006-12-10 08:12 pm UTC (link)
Quick question: can you refer me to some philosophical names associated with the emergentist position? I've heard the theory passed around a lot in informal settings, but never in an academic one.

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(no subject) - [info]paulhope, 2006-12-10 09:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]paulhope, 2006-12-10 09:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rogerdr, 2006-12-11 10:06 am UTC

[info]hollowman
2006-12-11 04:14 am UTC (link)
>>The question that the naturalist would pose is: 'What's unnatural about mind?' When a brain reaches a certain level of complexity, it creates a mind as an emergent property. The mind is not physical and yet it has a natural explanation.<<

Ok wait... I'm not seeing how you jump out of materialism there. I agree my "mind" is an emergent property of a complex brain, but that's a materialist point of view. How does a non-physical property emerge from a physical one? It seems to me that the moment the physical mind becomes the non-physical mind, you have something supernatural occuring.

What's the line of reasoning that prevents a non-materialist naturalist from viewing this the way I do?

>>Care to make any other dumbarse 'contributions' to this conversation?<<

Yep. See above. Do you have any useful answers?

>>Any irrelevant quotes of Dawkins you'd like to use?<<

You sure are obsessed with Dawkins. Why not some EO Wilson, or Konrad Lorenz? Here...

"My position is a naturalistic one; I see philosophy not as an a priori propaedeutic or groundwork for science, but as continuous with science. I see philosophy and science as in the same boat—a boat which, to revert to Neurath’s figure as I so often do, we can rebuild only at sea while staying afloat in it. There is no external vantage point, no first philosophy."
-WV Quine


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[info]anosognosia
2006-12-10 12:55 pm UTC (link)
"What is their non-physical yet natural explanation for the mind?"

Presumably you mean "What is the non-physical yet natural explanation for thinking and behavior?" The answer being, of couse: "Mind."

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[info]hollowman
2006-12-11 04:26 am UTC (link)

No, what I meant was "How do they define the interaction of non physical consciousness/entities with the physical fact of the brain and nervous system as natural?"

I mean, it's easy enough to do ... for instance, if one believes god exists, it is simple enough to go on to argue then god is then clearly "natural". Same thing with "mind". But if naturalism is open to accepting things we currently define as supernatural as "natural", then what precisely does the movement stand for?

What I want to know is how do naturalists who accept mind/body dualism define naturalism? What does it, as a philosophical movement, *mean* to them?

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(no subject) - [info]anosognosia, 2006-12-11 04:28 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]hollowman, 2006-12-11 04:43 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]anosognosia, 2006-12-11 04:45 am UTC

[info]paulhope
2006-12-10 08:09 pm UTC (link)
Marrying science to naturalism is a philosophical predjudice and is in no way a necessary condition of the scientific method.

You know--I've heard you say this a lot, but I kind of want to call you out on this, because I don't think I believe you.

I don't believe you because "natural" is, in my understanding of its philosophical sense, a constraint on our mode of epistemic access. Specifically, a natural phenomenon is by definition one which we can discover through scientific investigation.

So--what on earth are you talking about when you try to oppose naturalism with science?

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[info]alisarin
2006-12-11 11:53 am UTC (link)
Perspective of a reducing the subjectivity to the objectual sheme and classical (Aristotelian) theory of material independence of the spatial and temporary basis.

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