The Heretic ([info]theheretic) wrote in [info]peak_oil,
@ 2008-08-17 12:32:00
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Eastern Europe Urges EU to End Ties With Russia
"We Told You So" is the refrain from Poland to Eastern Europe and the Ukraine. Former Soviet states are Russo-phobic and say the invasion of Georgia simply proves their point. They are now urging the rest of the EU and NATO to break off ties to Russia. They honestly believe that they'll be next, just like last time. Poland has accepted the treaty with the USA for emplacement of anti-missile (SDI) defense systems, something the Russians state makes them "100% first strike target". Strangely (that was sarcasm), threats by Russia against Poland has NOT caused the former Soviet states to calm their fears of the Russian Empire.

What does this mean to peak oil? It means there is now a HUGE incentive for the EU to learn to live without natural gas and Russian/Caspian oil. And they shouldn't count on Turkish pipeline oil either. So, will the EU step up to the reality of foreign oil and the dangers of buying from an avowed and aggressive enemy (Russia)? One would hope they will start with conservation and then engineer transit solutions which will work in the European climate.

So, now we have the USA invaded Iraq (and going bankrupt), the USSR Russians invading and threatening their former satellite states and invading to control Caspian Oil (I wonder how long before they Ethnic Cleanse Chechnya, invade the -istans, and seize control of all the Central Asian and Caspian oil supplies?). If there was good oil in Western Siberia, they'd have left Yukoil to drill that. Instead, they arrested the Yukoil CEO and seized the company (Hey, that sounds like Mexico in 1925!). But now nobody sane wants to invest in oil infrastructure in a grabby country like Russia, thus the sale of the Caspian oil drilling permits/shares by Shell, BP, and others. We've long suspected the Caspian Oil supply was highly inflated claims (alleged double and triple counting of the field), thus selling out and bailing on the project made sense. Now I'm wondering if the Russian govt demanded a bit too much and the Yukoil fallout is responsible for the current mess?

Perhaps the Russians had little choice by to seize control of the pipeline just to insure they'll be able to fund their expansionist goals, now that they've made the West very suspicious of investing there. Of course, invasions to control resources aren't going to fly very well for investors either. This invasion will probably put a serious damper on further Western investment in the Russian economy. Bad for the public, bad for business. Bad for Russian goals in the short and long term. You'd think that people who play as much chess as the Russians wouldn't make these kind of knee-jerk mistakes. I wonder if perhaps the short term gain of control of the only intact pipeline will enable them to develop those Siberian fields. I guess we'll see. Meantime, we should all be thinking about the potential threat to market volatility when the Russians start playing with the pipeline like a spoiled 4 year old toying with the kitchen faucet.

Now, will India and China invade some oil resource area since the other big boys have done so? May as well. There's not much moral superiority we in the USA can stand on (Iraq). Ahem.

What do you think? Western analysts like the Washington Post, Chicago Sun-Times, SF Chronicle and even the CS Monitor have taken positions very similar to my own. I expect there are quite a few news organizations very suspicious of the Russian claims and highly doubtful, given their prior history of invasions (Hungary, Finland, Chechnya, Poland, Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Bosnia (invaded by Serbs, another "home rule" ethnic Russian colony)), the Russian Empire looks more and more wicked. We'd best learn how to get along without Russian gas and oil. They're going to do their worst to us.



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[info]ytterbius
2008-08-17 10:53 pm UTC (link)
Continued fracturing of the World Order.

McCain wants to divide it further.

Bush looks like he's just sitting it out. I haven't heard a peep from him.

Trouble.

We need Obama, and we need to make it to January.

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[info]unshavengod
2008-08-17 11:15 pm UTC (link)
I don't understand how "Europe will have to do without Russian gas/oil".

Remember that these are global marketplaces. The geographic origin merely affects the shipping cost. If Europe "cuts off ties with Russia", Russia will sell more to China, and China's previous suppliers will sell to Europe.

But my scenario is silly, because it's in the economic interest of everybody to ship over minimal distances (i.e. keep using the pipelines).

If Russia doesn't sell its fossil fuels, it has no income. If it has no income, it has no power. Trading 'with your enemy' is nothing new. The USA has been getting oil from Venezuela, for example. It's a good thing. The trade gives both countries reason to leave each other alone.

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Doen't history say occupiers pay a heavy price?
[info]mrflash818
2008-08-18 12:20 am UTC (link)
I mean, I remember reading about the long term Soviet occupation, and how much it cost them.

And then the US goes and does the same thing there, and in IRAQ to boot? Why cannot people believe that histories' lessons will also apply to them?

Now, I am not expert in the histories of the details, but it seems from history that when _any_ country expands, invades, and occupies another country, it always hurts more in the long run? Korea by US, Vietnam by US, Afganistan by US and USSR, Balkan Islands by the UK, USSR to eastern europe, Germany to Europe, etc.

So, I was just reading how many things in the US have tripled or quadrupled in price since the US went to Iraq, so that's not 'normal' inflation. I think it is a direct result of the fact that countries can print their own money, but then supply and demand on currencies says that since there are so many US dollars out there, then they get heavily devalued?

It may be related to fuel prices as well? Even though gasoline prices have dropped a whole fifty cents to average at or just below four dollars a gallon, so what? At four dollars a gallon, it is still double from one american president ago....

So, that's just how I interpret all this. So much too learn, never enough time (sigh). Looking forward to continue to learn from the interesting posts of everyone else to this peak oil group.

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*sigh*
[info]ysabetwordsmith
2008-08-18 01:44 am UTC (link)
>> Poland has accepted the treaty with the USA for emplacement of anti-missile (SDI) defense systems, something the Russians state makes them "100% first strike target". <<

And this is a change from Russia's previous opinion of Poland ... how?

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[info]anfalicious
2008-08-18 02:28 am UTC (link)
China probably won't invade anyone. Firstly, it's not something they do (Tibet, Taiwan etc. are territories they consider to be Chinese historically, so they don't consider what they are doing as invading, but as retention of territory). Secondly, as has been mentioned, invasions/occupations are expensive, economically, militarily, diplomatically. China can just use all the US dollars it has to buy oil, it needs to do something with all that money.

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[info]badnewswade
2008-08-18 05:13 am UTC (link)
I think you're wrong. For a start Georgia was a part of Russia for about as long, if not longer, than the Georgia in America has been a part of the USA. At best it's as if the Russians had backed a lefty regime in, say, Panama which had then decided to go on a kill-crazy rampage through the Canal Zone at the start of the Olympics.

Secondly, Bush was warned about those SDI systems and how the Cold War would get restarted as a result, did he listen... no. And now you're all surprised when you got the Cold War back? Bite me.

Oh, and did I mention - the Georgians are absolute scum of the Earth. They shelled the crap out of S. Ossetia and shot at journalists who came to cover the conflict. They're a bunch of ethnic cleansers and arseholes who used the olympics to try and re-take S. Ossetia, a region where for better or worse most people have Russian passports and which has had Home Rule for years (although admittedly the rulers of the place are Russian beurocrats - as I said, I think it's analagous to the Canal Zone of Panama).

Finally, anyone who thinks they can go up against Russia and expect anything other than a severe beating as a result is too stupid to live. It's daft on the face of it and Saakashivilli's crying to the FRENCH! and Shrub is deserving of nothing but scorn.

Have a cartoon....



(more information is available on the fabulously un-PC Encyclopedia Dramattica)

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[info]theheretic
2008-08-18 01:11 pm UTC (link)
Hungary, 1956, revolution against the soviet occupation since WW2 resulted in 250,000 people fleeing the soviets, who massacred and imprisoned anyone in the way. 1938, Finland, Molotov Cocktail.

The RUSSIANS claim these things as if they were verifiable facts. WE don't know if they're true. The RUSSIANS have invaded and massacred their neighbors (Stalin killing 15-20 million of his subjects during his "benevolent" rule). The Former Soviet "Client States" are terrified of being invaded and massacred AGAIN by the current RUSSIAN regime. Why should I believe the RUSSIANS and not take serious consideration for their neighbors claims? Believing the RUSSIANS just makes you look gullible and foolish.

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[info]badnewswade
2008-08-18 01:44 pm UTC (link)
How about Fox News then? Since you don't believe anything unless the right wing say it...

Fox news reporters shot at by Georgians

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8FajNEaxwc

The Beeb, two days before the war:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1f0_hGSUwk


Georgian takes out gun, waves it about then shoots at cameraman:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsrilmjInsU

Also there's a rumour going around that CNN aired misleading footage, swapping a town that the Georgians bombed for a town the Russians occupied.

If you look at vids of Saakashvilli as he claims Russian atrocities, he has some peculiar mannerisms - twitching, grinning inappropriately, all the hallmarks of someone who is lying through his teeth.

Finally, I say again, Georgia is not Hungary. It has been a part of Russia as long as your Georgia has been a part of the USA - an certainly longer than the Panama Canal Zone has!

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[info]badnewswade
2008-08-18 01:53 pm UTC (link)
PPS: Stalin was... Georgian!

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Support. Give your Vote.
[info]jankarol
2008-08-30 08:13 pm UTC (link)
Give your vote for the Georgia (Gruzja) and leave your comment.
Дадай свой голас у падтрымку Грузii ды каментуй калi жадаешь.

Оставь свой голос в поддержку Грузии или России и добавь комментарий если считаешь нужным.

http://georgia-vs-russia.com/

Send the link to your friend.
Перадай спасылку сябру.

Магчыма галасаваць шмат разоу, але праз некалькi гадзiн.

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