DragonTDC ([info]dragontdc) wrote in [info]pagan,
@ 2004-11-02 14:31:00
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What is with you people?
Ok, get this;

Neo-Pagans are known for being accepting of unusual concepts. Many believe in magic. Many believe in spirits, ghosts, and the like, many believe in fantastic things like dragons and faeries. And those who do not, they don't go around attacking those who do.

Let Lady Fairy-Fay Whatshername say she's got dragons guarding her house, and even those who do not believe go "that's nice" and go on. Let someone say they've spoken to and heard faeries in the woods, and they'll be listened to.

And if a friend to told you they were walking along the street and felt a that something was going on at a house, and they were bold enough to go knock on the door, and found that a coven was holding circle in the living room, you might be a little surprised but you certainly wouldn't tell them they were full of shit.

And if you were in a convenience store and got a "feeling" there was something very dangerous about to happen, and left, only to find later the store had been held up right after you left, would that really be such a shock to your Pagan and Magical beliefs?

And lastly, if someone tells you they were out driving in the country, and pulled into a strange driveway, and a guy came out of the house with a gun, and your friend left quickly, would you call him a liar?

So what is it specifically about my experiences in my previous posts that make them so hard to believe? I have done nothing but state what I did and saw and felt, and what conclusions I made from those experiences. Yet I've got tons of snarky Pagans calling bullshit all over me. What gives? At what point did what I say go beyond the ability of a Neo-Pagan to believe?

It's not going to change what I know I did and saw, but I think everyone here deserves to know what they should keep to themselves, lest they suffer the same reaction I have.



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[info]looneylulu
2004-11-02 11:53 am UTC (link)
Dude, I belive you, and I know exactly what you mean, on all aspects. Tried to leave a message on your journal. Found it funny we are in the same region. I live in Northern ALabama.

(Reply to this)


[info]prismaya
2004-11-02 11:56 am UTC (link)
If you didn't sound so paranoid and "OMG THEY'RE OUT TO GET ME" I wouldn't be rolling my eyes at you.

I don't entirely disbelieve your situation but I think that by acting like this you're only letting those powers influence you. Me, if I was in your situation, I'd shrug it off and not worry about it.

Would you be so kind as to just drop it? I'm sick of seeing this garbage on my friends list just because you won't accept that people don't believe you. Get over it.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]dragontdc
2004-11-02 12:09 pm UTC (link)
Good point, it HAS been escalating far beyond it's merit.

Really, it's all a part of my past, too. Makes for good campfire tales, and I get to say "and it really happened that way" at the end, but it's not relevant to my daily life at all.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]wibbble
2004-11-02 05:25 pm UTC (link)
I second this. I just woke up, and this guy has been spewing utter randomness all over my unusually busy friends page.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]moronqueen
2004-11-02 11:57 am UTC (link)
I believed what you said, too. There are always people in this group who feel the need to start up a debate at the drop of the hat when someone posts something they don't believe in, too. That's when it's time to turn around and let them enjoy their panty-wads and ignore their comments as best you can.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]badseed1980
2004-11-02 12:51 pm UTC (link)
There are always people in this group who feel the need to start up a debate at the drop of the hat when someone posts something they don't believe in, too.

Ah, forgive me. I didn't see the "no debates or disagreements" rule in the community info.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]moronqueen, 2004-11-02 12:52 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]badseed1980, 2004-11-02 01:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]moronqueen, 2004-11-02 01:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]wibbble, 2004-11-02 05:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]wibbble, 2004-11-02 05:33 pm UTC

[info]thewhiskeyjack
2004-11-02 12:19 pm UTC (link)
I put firm belief in what you say, if only because you believe it. We tend to be a group of believers, but we're also a catty fellowship among men. Its not jealousy, or even skepticism per se. But I know that there are people I've had encounters with that have claimed things that are completely within the realm of belief, and yet i found myself looking at them with disdain and disbelief.

Your motives are pure, I'll give you that. But remember belief is a strong part of Magick.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]dragontdc
2004-11-02 12:37 pm UTC (link)
Thank you.

People disagreeing with me doesn't bother me, people saying they think I'm nuts doesn't bother me, and people saying they think I've completely misinterpreted what I have experienced doesn't bother me.

Calling me a liar, and attacking me personally just to be snarky, that gets me Irish up, and no mistake.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]thewhiskeyjack, 2004-11-02 12:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]moronqueen, 2004-11-02 01:01 pm UTC

[info]pyrrhus
2004-11-02 12:23 pm UTC (link)
In all reality it comes down to the idea that I don't believe just anything someone says, posts, or writes. I hope you don't either.

If someone says they got pregnant, and they've never had sex, do I believe them?

(Reply to this)


[info]upper_strata
2004-11-02 12:33 pm UTC (link)
SOOOO many flamers in this group. Don't sweat it, I believe you. There are many eschatalogicals trying to hijack the name pagan here, so just keep a cool head and let them keep fooling themselves. Seshen is one of my favorites. Total psycho. I think she's like a morman or something. Hardly any "pagan" sensabilities that I can see, as with many people in this group.
I once dared to suggest that pagan's should concentrate their energy in to off-setting the serious lack of balance christians have brought on to American culture. You would have thought I made my post on Jerry Falwells website. So much vitriol.
And watch out for the "Witches for Bush" crowd.
No, I'm not joking.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]softpaw
2004-11-02 12:49 pm UTC (link)
gotta ask...*and I tried looking it up first and found nada..* but what does eschatalogicals mean?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]badseed1980, 2004-11-02 12:56 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]upper_strata, 2004-11-02 01:06 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]badseed1980, 2004-11-02 01:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]upper_strata, 2004-11-02 01:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dragontdc, 2004-11-02 02:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]upper_strata, 2004-11-02 02:07 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dragontdc, 2004-11-02 02:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]c_korone, 2004-11-02 01:38 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]upper_strata, 2004-11-02 02:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dragontdc, 2004-11-02 02:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bukyou, 2004-11-02 12:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]upper_strata, 2004-11-02 01:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bukyou, 2004-11-02 01:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]anarchys_savior, 2004-11-02 01:24 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]badseed1980, 2004-11-02 01:38 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bukyou, 2004-11-02 01:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]badseed1980, 2004-11-02 02:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]upper_strata, 2004-11-02 02:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dragontdc, 2004-11-02 02:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dragontdc, 2004-11-02 02:06 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dragonf1re, 2004-11-02 03:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]gookachu, 2004-11-02 04:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]shadowgardens, 2004-11-03 11:40 am UTC
From the Mod - [info]bellacrow, 2004-11-02 05:10 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]theaceofspades, 2004-11-04 09:05 am UTC

(Reply from suspended user)
(no subject) - [info]sihaya09, 2004-11-02 03:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bukyou, 2004-11-02 06:12 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]anarchys_savior, 2004-11-02 01:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]unjustified, 2004-11-02 01:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]seshen, 2004-11-03 01:34 pm UTC
Mormonism... - [info]anowyn, 2004-11-02 04:12 pm UTC
Re: Mormonism... - [info]newdance, 2006-11-26 04:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]seshen, 2004-11-02 07:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]wandereringray, 2004-11-03 04:55 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dragontdc, 2004-11-03 05:29 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]seshen, 2004-11-03 05:40 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dragontdc, 2004-11-03 05:55 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]seshen, 2004-11-09 03:16 pm UTC
So tell me, o ascended Master - [info]dakiwiboid, 2004-11-03 08:58 am UTC

[info]softpaw
2004-11-02 12:53 pm UTC (link)
I think the main problem stems from your original post, you did rather come across a bit paranoid delusional and "more pagany then thou" in it and in some of your replies to people.

Your follow up post was much less so, but by then was a tad to late to fix the damage made in the first post.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]dragontdc
2004-11-02 01:45 pm UTC (link)
Well, I did click the "Enraged" emotion icon. I was quite upset when I posted.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]bukyou
2004-11-02 12:54 pm UTC (link)
Because if you look at the history of this community, and the number of posters who stroll by with the "I'm the child of a Fairy King and Tiger Princess, and I was born a witch with superfantastic magical powers, and the bad mean people are out to get me," the paranoid magical attack posts get both monotonous and annoying.

There are very few people I would believe about a far-out magical experience, and none of them are people who would post about it in a live journal community.

For the record, I don't think you're insane, I just think you're.. a fan of movies, fantasy novels and roleplaying games. When people want to believe in something, it's easy to convince yourself. To somewhat echo what I think someone above me had said, if you'd gone with "hey, everyone who can shield your polling places" or whatever, versus "Republican High Magi conspiracy super-powerful Doctor Strange, Technocracy mansions OH MY," you might have gotten a different response.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]dragontdc
2004-11-02 01:48 pm UTC (link)
As I have said elsewhere, now I've cooled off, I did click the "Enraged" emotion thingy when I posted. I was quite upset, and more than a tad reactionary.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]gookachu, 2004-11-02 02:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bukyou, 2004-11-02 05:02 pm UTC

(Deleted post)

[info]dragontdc
2004-11-02 01:55 pm UTC (link)
What about surprise?

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]anowyn
2004-11-02 01:10 pm UTC (link)
I had no problem with what you posted. It's perfectly plausible to me.

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[info]dragontdc
2004-11-02 01:59 pm UTC (link)
Thanks, but I have a horrible habit of closely inspecting things that bother me to see what the real nature of my problem with them is, rather than avoiding them.

It's like picking at a scab. I know I should leave it alone, but sometimes the itch gets the better of me.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]anarchys_savior
2004-11-02 01:29 pm UTC (link)
People have a problem with what you claim because...well, it's all bullshit. Someone's sending out subliminal messages(that you consciously heard, not subconscious, which is a contradiction on your part) to everyone(which you know everyone in america is hearing it because...well, you're the only one hearing it, so..?), to make Bush wins(as if Bush is teh eeeeeevil and must be deeeeestroyed!!! Neverforgettheburningtiiiiiiimes!!). I joined [info]nonfluffypagans a while back. I thought I wasn't fluffy at all. Turns out...I was a class-A fluff bunny. Then, after I got banned from that community, I thought for sure I didn't believe anything else that was fluffy. I post here, and people flame at me. I got all emotional and whined about it. I'm a better person because of it all. You should be thankful for those 'flamers' in this community(as I am), cause they make you take a step back and reconsider what you're saying. Really, does your claim make any logical sense? No wonder people think pagans are stupid.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]dragontdc
2004-11-02 02:12 pm UTC (link)
I admit I served up too many impossible things before breakfast, and I apologize. As I indicated in my post, I was enraged, and thus not thinking very clearly.

Reactionism is its own worst enemy, and today I am it's poster child.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]newdance, 2004-11-06 02:38 am UTC

[info]rosefox8
2004-11-02 01:41 pm UTC (link)
Oookay. Well. I never said I didn't believe that you didn't have that experience. Yes, you had that experience. It was scary. It was legitimate. I believe that it happened TO YOU.
I did not have that experience.
Was I supposed to?

Please don't assume that everyone feels everything you do just because you got a horrible premonition.
The other day, I got a horrible premonition that someone was going to be shot, and they were. But no one else sensed it. And yes, I know, this thing you felt seemed to affect everything. But so did another premonition I had. About the election. I didn't run around yelling at people and wanting them to make it stop. I casually asked a few friends if they had a similar feeling. They did. I said, okay, and dropped it.
Take a few deep breaths and get over yourself. Just because people doubt something does NOT mean it didn't happen. After all, reality is what the individual makes of it.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]dragontdc
2004-11-02 02:18 pm UTC (link)
Well, all fair and true but for the fact it was a current experience rather than a premonition.

I was alarmed, and sounded an alarm, and others looked, some felt the same and some didn't, and I admitted early on it might have been a local thing, and sure enough, people in other places weren't getting the same experience.

It was the accompanying comments that I made that cused the worst bruhaha.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]c_korone
2004-11-02 01:59 pm UTC (link)
Neo-Pagans are known for being accepting of unusual concepts

..to a fault. That's what Neo-Pagans are known for. And I think that is more of a weakness than a strength, if only because it's taken to the extreme. It's done out of politeness, open-mindedness, a desire to be open to possibilities, even just being humble before the mystery that is life. Hell, none of us knows everything, so how can we judge?

But I have seen people with genuine mental illness that were encouraged in their delusions, because of all these 'good intentions'. Instead of telling them to go see a doctor about the incessant voices in their head that upset them so much - they are praised as amazing mediums or telepaths, etc. Maybe this is because so many pagans distrust any traditional 'Western' form of health care, or maybe it's because we just don't have enough pagans that are trained in health care (maybe some psych classes would be good for pagan clergy for example?). But I do think that we have to watch out for being so open-minded that our brains fall out.

So what is it specifically about my experiences in my previous posts that make them so hard to believe?

Specifically, it's the fact that you have come to the most unlikely, most fantastic, most bizarre conclusion imaginable about your circumstances, without even considering other more rational possibilities. It began with a voice in your head telling you that maybe you were wrong, and maybe Bush should stay in office. Rather than consider that your mind is quite capable of creating such a voice (especially if you are dead-against the possibility of having these thoughts of doubt yourself), you decide it is something far more difficult to believe - the work of an all-powerful republican grand poobah mystic magi sending the entire country telepathic mind-control signals. Other than your word, I have seen no evidence for this. However, I have indeed seen plenty of evidence for the idea that sometimes human beings are plagued with doubt.

So much is riding on this election, it is only natural for some part of your mind to want to reevaluate what you've decided. You are in fact surrounded by very real, very corporeal, very direct forms of influence every day - that being campaign ads and a constant election coverage by the media. The fact that some part of your mind wanted to go back and reconsider your actions is good. It means you don't take these things lightly. But if you are unwilling to face the idea that any part of you might even consider you were wrong about Kerry or Bush, then you might come up with some other means of explaining what you felt..

That's my honest opinion, for whatever it's worth.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]redselchie
2004-11-02 02:09 pm UTC (link)
So much is riding on this election, it is only natural for some part of your mind to want to reevaluate what you've decided. You are in fact surrounded by very real, very corporeal, very direct forms of influence every day - that being campaign ads and a constant election coverage by the media. The fact that some part of your mind wanted to go back and reconsider your actions is good. It means you don't take these things lightly.

Absolutely - my take on her situation entirely. The voice in her head, really is her own - and yes, it is a good thing to question yourself!

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]dragontdc, 2004-11-02 02:38 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]meetzemonsta, 2004-11-02 03:43 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]c_korone, 2004-11-02 04:52 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dragontdc, 2004-11-02 04:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]c_korone, 2004-11-02 05:10 pm UTC
What is with you people - Difference between Local vs. Global
[info]woolysw
2004-11-02 02:02 pm UTC (link)
Because in your post above, each of the activities you describe is local - a street, a convenience store, a driveway. Each is, in and of itself, quite believable.

In your original post, you made claims that what you described was happening was part of a mass nationwide conspiracy.

There's a huge difference between having a bad feeling at a convenience store about to be robbed or at a house where a single nutbar lives and being right, and stating there's a nationwide conspiracy of right wing high magis plotting to subliminally change the election.

What is rational locally does not automatically scale to rationally nationally.

That's what's with us.

woolysw

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: What is with you people - Difference between Local vs. Global
[info]dragontdc
2004-11-02 02:46 pm UTC (link)
Well, I've encountered these people in two major Southeastern cities, and have heard others say they've seen similar in several others, and one from Chicago said they had seen something like it, too. Not the houses, but the black cars showing up when something magical was happening.

Now, most of this was over 5 years ago. They may all be driving silver SUVs or lime-green VW bugs for all I know now.

I just proposed the concept, and my suspicion, that those people and whoever was doing subliminal projections were the same people.

It never occurred to me to think people wouldn't believe they even existed. I thought it was one of those "worst-kept-secret" kind of things, where everyone had seen something like that and maybe mentioned it, but never really talked about it.

It's like someone not believeing in unmarked police cars. It just didn't occur to me that it was that far outside people's experience.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]gookachu
2004-11-02 02:17 pm UTC (link)
Neo-Pagans are known for being accepting of unusual concepts. Many believe in magic. Many believe in spirits, ghosts, and the like, many believe in fantastic things like dragons and faeries. And those who do not, they don't go around attacking those who do.

YAY FOR NON-THINKING!!! in other words, pagans lack critical analysis? maybe this is what's wrong with pagans. gods below, what fools these mortals be!

see, i'm a bitch. i don't tolerate fools. i don't tolerate stupidity. i believe stupid people should be mocked mercilessly until they all wither and die so i don't have to suffer at their idiotic, unthinking hands.

i do attack people for being stupid. i attack people for lack of critical thinking and judgment. i do call people out for being retarded. and, dude, that post was fucking retarded. have you no ability of critical forethought? have you no ability to critically analyse your situation? you know what those thoughts were running through your head? it's called mental regurgitation of media input. it's normal, it's natural. take a fucking marketing course and psych 101 course, for gods sake. that's why marketing and those commercials works, cos idiots like you can't critically analyse the stimuli, but just swallow it wholesale.

i don't accept stupid people. i don't accept bullshit claims or idiotic assumptions. i'm a fucking bitch and i'll call anyone for being fucking retarded. does that make me less "pagany than thou" because i don't believe your illuminati-esque claims of republican consipriacy? no, it means i have a fucking brain in my head that i choose to use.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Can we have an "Amen" ...
[info]foxesdaughter
2004-11-02 02:49 pm UTC (link)
or perhaps a So Mote It Be?

You response is something that I could have written ... in fact ... er ... it's been a running theme in my journal for some time now.

You NOT a fairy, unicorn, reincarnation of Merlin, whatever the current flavour of the day is. The Illuminato probably have better things to do with their time than beam secret messages to you. The Rice Krispies guys are NOT trying to talk to you. Geez ...

Why is there this need to be "extra special"? Where people somehow jealous of the kids riding the short bus?

Anyone here up for actually having a religion that revolves around learning the lessons of life with the help of their deity of choice?

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]dragontdc, 2004-11-02 02:51 pm UTC
Naw, I'm Canadian ... - [info]foxesdaughter, 2004-11-02 04:00 pm UTC

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(no subject) - [info]frightened, 2004-11-02 04:27 pm UTC

(Reply from suspended user)

[info]dragonf1re
2004-11-02 03:26 pm UTC (link)
see, i'm a bitch. i don't tolerate fools. i don't tolerate stupidity. i believe stupid people should be mocked mercilessly until they all wither and die so i don't have to suffer at their idiotic, unthinking hands.

Agreed, same here, but I'm not as much of a judgemental, raving bitch as gookachu.

I don't deny that odd things have really happened to you, but you did sound, for lack of a better word, waaaaaaaay "fluffy".

Also, you have to note that this community is filled with flamers and "more-pagan-than-thou", "i know more than you/have been on this path longer therefore I am more enlightened/better than you" more than anywhere else that I have seen. I left Christianity partially for that reason, and I still get it in the Pagan community. Ya can't escape it, no matter where you go. Ignorance is everywhere. This community is indeed filled with overly-skeptical, condescending, judgemental pricks.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]dragontdc
2004-11-02 03:36 pm UTC (link)
have been on this path longer therefore I am more enlightened/better than you

Ah, perhaps there is the crux of the misunderstanding. Age and experience are meaningless when it comes to enlightenment. Spiritual maturity is not a function of age alone.

I have a very distinct deliniation between spirituality/religion/enlightenment and technical magic. To me, magic is a craft, sometimes an art, but based on skills and knowledge instead of spiritual maturity. It's a matter of understanding how things work, and how to make them work for you. With such a technical skill, experience is a good indicator of proficiency, as a rule-of-thumb. Exceptions occur. There are prodigies and dullards, as with any craft. But overall, if someone's been at it a while, they usually know what they're talking about.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]chastityswayy
2004-11-02 04:14 pm UTC (link)
I didn't say anything on the original post, but this is starting to get on my nerves, so I'm not keeping my mouth shut here.

Using the phrase "fucking Republicans" impeaches your credibility. A lot. Especially with those of us who are Republican, or at the very least, not liberal. I've grown very weary of the attacks on Republicans and Bush; specifically when people hint, or flat out say, that I'm a bad Pagan because I'm not voting for Kerry. That's bullshit.

So, when you start out your post with "fucking Republicans" you're immediately displaying your prejudices and giving yourself zero credibility.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]anarchys_savior
2004-11-02 05:15 pm UTC (link)
Amen. Wait, oh no, I can't say amen in a pagan community. That obviously makes me un-pagan.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]jessycat_techie, 2004-11-02 05:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]slate1198, 2004-11-02 05:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]chastityswayy, 2004-11-02 07:15 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]slate1198, 2004-11-02 07:56 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bukyou, 2004-11-03 05:58 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jessycat_techie, 2004-11-02 05:56 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]dragontdc, 2004-11-03 05:20 am UTC

[info]frightened
2004-11-02 04:23 pm UTC (link)
Neo-Pagans are known for being accepting of unusual concepts [...] At what point did what I say go beyond the ability of a Neo-Pagan to believe?

... Whaaaaaat? Why does believing in magic or whatever show a greater ability or readiness to believe anything than, say, believing in a patriarchal god who sacrificed his son for humanity? Face it: all religions are weird. All religions mean you're believing in something that isn't obvious and can't be proved. The fact that the religion happens to fall under the umbrella term 'pagan' does not make it special in this regard.

And why should an ability to believe in X mean someone automatically swallows Y? Because I am capable of believing X does not mean I automatically believe X; X has to convince me of its validity first. It sure as hell doesn't mean I automatically believe Y.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]anarchys_savior
2004-11-02 05:16 pm UTC (link)
Exactly. Thank you so much for saying that. It's been on the tip of my tounge since I read all of this, but I've been too biased to think clearly. :P

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]slate1198
2004-11-02 05:47 pm UTC (link)
I think most people were saying you were insane not a liar.

I don't believe in what you've shared. I'm not calling you a liar. Just saying I don't feel that what you've perceived to be true is true. I think you've delved too deep in the explanation.

Does this make me close-minded? Maybe. If so, I really don't care.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]dragontdc
2004-11-03 05:26 am UTC (link)
Nope. Put like that, it's valid and possibly valuable criticism.

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