gchick ([info]gchick) wrote in [info]otw_news,
@ 2007-06-04 23:49:00
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Entry tags:fanarchive:weekly summaries

Summary of the original discussion
The purpose of this post is to summarize the discussion, questions, concerns, and comments in response to [info]astolat's original call to arms here. That post will be closed to new comments after this is posted, but it will remain there for anyone who would like the full background on the fanarchive project.

A list of specific feature requests will be kept updated in the fanarchive community.

A list of volunteers who have offered either expertise or general support is here. You're welcome to add your name to the list, in addition to adding your comments to the general discussion.

Also please note the call for board members here. This requires a commitment, but it's a great service to the community!

The Main Issues:


The fanarchive non-profit organization, and the archive itself, were proposed as a response to the fanlib controversy, but the need for a large multi-fandom site that would be created and controlled by fans themselves has been recognized throughout this discussion as an overarching issue beyond that one site.

Based on the discussion, the proposed archive should serve a broadly-defined fannish audience, including:
  • All fandoms, and a place for hard-to-classify fic such as crossovers and meta-fic, and potentially controversial material such as RPF.
  • Open to all ratings, with an age-based ratings system. Legal advice should be sought to ensure that adult material is appropriately screened, but it should not be banned.
  • Accessible on multiple devices including adaptive technologies, and friendly to international audiences, including multilingual interfaces, and welcoming to anime and manga fandoms.
  • While vids, fanart, and other multimedia work may or may not be hosted there for both legal and bandwidth reasons, it should be possible to find and recommend them.


LiveJournal has been a home for a large and decentralized fannish community for the last few years, and the social features of communities, networking via friends, threaded commenting, and control over one's own posts (as compared to archives where one cannot edit, or where people other than the poster can), are seen as essential features for a new archive. However, a number of commenters are frustrated with the shortfalls of reading and posting fanfic on LiveJournal: the lack of searchability, the difficulty of finding one's way in unfamiliar or rare fandoms, the limit on post length. Also, note that the current discussion has only been open to LiveJournal users, so there may be other concerns with LJ-based fandom as well.

A number of other archives are been mentioned as possible comparisons, and a list of them has been collected here. Generally speaking, existing archives suffer from one of three problems as noted in the original discussion.
  • In the eyes of many readers, the largest archives (FFN, AFFN, fictionalley) have quality-control problems. Finding good-quality fiction amidst the huge amount of content is impossible without some kind of recommendations, ratings, or wayfinding -- but on the other hand, active moderation or editing is too much of a burden for anything but a small site, and it presents legal issues as well.
  • Smaller archives built on existing archive software such as efiction and auto-archive lack such essential features as searchability, recs, easy feedback mechanisms, and tools for managing long stories. In addition, those tools cannot scale to the size of the archive that we hope to build -- if fandom is as big as fanlib thinks we are, we need to be able to handle the traffic.
  • Whatever the size of the archive, both readers and writers need more flexibility in their tools than is available in current archives, whether they're seeking a better reading experience (search, suggestions, multiple RSS feeds, alternate story layouts), a writing process (beta searches, challenges), or control over posting (lack of restrictions by rating or fandom, editability). This is a theme that runs through a large number of the feature requests.
This is not to say that they don't have their benefits as well!

Also, there are a number of web technologies that should be a natural fit for a user-created culture like this one. These aren't being used to their full advantage in current archives, simply because large archives have not been the focus of fandom as these techologies have developed. A number of Web 2.0 sites and features have been proposed:
  • Tagging by both readers and writers: especially as a means to searching outside of fixed categories such as fandom or pairing. Note: there is no reason not to have both fixed categories and tags. Proposed models for tagging include deli.cio.us, flickr, and librarything.
  • Recs: several recommendations systems have been discussed, based on thumbs up/down ratings, shared interests with other recommenders, and suggested/highlighted fics. In any case, many commenters feel that as the archive grows, there is a need to filter content. However, any screening of postings for quality is very controversial, as there is no agreement on what constitutes good fic.
  • Content aggregation: It should be possible to post to multiple sites, to bring in content from other sites, and to read fic in the form one wants.


Concerns:

  • Legal issues: The first principle is Get A Lawyer First, and that's being done. The most pressing worry raised in the discussion is age -- dealing with underage posters and readers; and with underage character content. All of this may be complicated by local laws. Other legal questions include whether the archive will accept fic from fandoms in which the original authors are opposed to it.
  • Money: The proposed organizational structure is based on voting memberships in return for donations of either money or labor. During the original discussion, several financial questions were raised, including whether a large site could survive on donations, whether a subscription model with added features is acceptable, whether ads are necessarily a bad thing. In spite of considerable debate on those points, there is a strong consensus throughout the discussion that the organization should be not-for-profit.


Side Projects:

This summary has focused primarily on the fan archive, but there are several other projects that have been proposed in the course of the original discussion. These include:
  • A links database to aggregate fannish links at other sites. This has been proposed as a first step for the archive project, but it can also exist within it or in parallel with it.
  • A historical archive to collect fic that has been available only through the internet archive or even pre-internet sources. Care should be taken to find authors and get their permission, and to ensure that the fannish history collected there is representative of multiple fandom communities.
  • A Fannish Legal Defense Fund, modeled along the lines of the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund.


(Finally, on a purely personal note, this has been an exciting discussion to follow, and I'm looking forward to seeing how all the energy poured out by all sides of fandom in this discussion can be made into great things.)



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[info]rishabree
2007-06-05 04:25 am UTC (link)
Wow, that's a lot of consolidation. Thanks for taking it on!

(Reply to this)


[info]jelliclekat
2007-06-05 04:37 am UTC (link)
About quality control-- I don't know if ficwad.com has been mentioned or not, but it has a system that works fairly well. You get a number of points each week which you spend to rate stories, and you can filter out stories below a certain rating. The number of points you receive will increase or decrease, depending on whether other people rate your ratings as fair or unfair.

Ficwad is still very small though, and I'm not sure how the system would work for a larger site. It also uses words for the ratings (such as "out of character" and "original") which is frustrating since there isn't always a word I want to use. Maybe something like a star-rating would work?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]elfwreck
2007-06-05 04:48 am UTC (link)
Star ratings are troublesome because some people rank stories that squick them low, regardless of how well-written they are, and others rate stories they like (or stories by their friends) high, again regardless of quality. And then, some just have different ideas about the number value of stars... on a 1-5 scale, are they "hideous, poor, average, good, excellent" or "poor, average, good, excellent, ultimate perfection"--with truly atrocious fics getting no stars?

Ranking by descriptive word gets around some of that. (And as you mentioned, has problems of its own.)

Hmm, maybe there could be separate star-ratings for "story" and "grammar/language," so that a wonderful plot & characterization wouldn't be tanked because it wasn't beta'd for punctuation, and something that was excellently well-written but just falls flat doesn't get bumped into "great story" rankings because the writer has a good command of the language but no grasp of these particular characters.

If we can get complicated with the rankings or tags or whatever, the people who vote/rank stories could even indicate whether this is their main fandom or OTP; a story might be perceived as excellent by OTPers but awful by people who don't like the pairing because they don't catch the fanon nuances.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]kerravonsen, 2007-06-05 05:22 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]rushin_doll, 2007-06-05 01:17 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tejas, 2007-06-05 01:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rushin_doll, 2007-06-05 02:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tejas, 2007-06-05 02:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rushin_doll, 2007-06-05 02:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tejas, 2007-06-05 03:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]xenacryst, 2007-06-06 02:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tejas, 2007-06-06 02:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]xenacryst, 2007-06-06 03:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]paraka, 2007-06-06 04:22 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]xenacryst, 2007-06-07 03:58 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]vamp_ress, 2007-06-05 04:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rushin_doll, 2007-06-05 08:36 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]paraka, 2007-06-06 01:32 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]rushin_doll, 2007-06-06 01:45 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]kyuuketsukirui, 2007-06-06 10:04 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]vamp_ress, 2007-06-06 05:52 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]forked, 2007-06-23 10:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kerravonsen, 2007-06-05 05:18 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]vamp_ress, 2007-06-05 04:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ratcreature, 2007-06-05 03:57 pm UTC

[info]whetherwoman
2007-06-05 05:22 am UTC (link)
I just want to say to everyone pouring huge amounts of work into this project that my life has been in a frustrating phase lately (everything not quite working out to plan, everyone saying, "Well, you can do some of that, but certainly not this other piece") and seeing this huge project come together in such a comprehensive competent way is a big bright spot. You are all amazing. Keep it up.

(Reply to this)


[info]dragonaph
2007-06-05 07:02 am UTC (link)
You mentioned multilingual interfaces - does that also mean, that stories can be posted in other languages? Or will it be an English only archive? (Or has that discussion already happened and I just missed it?)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]mllesatine
2007-06-05 08:46 am UTC (link)
I wanted to ask the same question. :)

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]rushin_doll, 2007-06-05 01:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kheha, 2007-06-06 12:16 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]rushin_doll, 2007-06-06 12:58 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]damned_colonial, 2007-06-11 07:14 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dragonaph, 2007-06-06 07:00 pm UTC

[info]stewardess
2007-06-05 08:35 am UTC (link)
Just stopping by to offer encouragement! Also to offer what I've learned from working on big projects: you won't get it right the first time. There are things you learn only after you go "live" and a bunch of people bang on it. It's okay to get it wrong and then fix it! If a particular issue can't be resolved and holds everything else back, do a coin toss and see what happens. :D

(Reply to this)

Rating systems
[info]anjak_j
2007-06-05 10:14 am UTC (link)
Personally, I have to say, I don't see the value to rating systems. Almost every instance of a site I've been involved in where there has been a rating system it has been abused. I feel that any attempt at one in this arena is most likely going to result in a popularity contest rather than actually being a resource to good fic. Or worse it will be used as a petty means to negativity - to pick off things that aren't liked, a particular ship for instance.

Maybe there could be something like a 'rec link' for every fic, so that can be spread around by people who like what they read. And some way of counting these referring links could be used to speak on what is popular. If people have to put more effort into showing their appreciation then maybe it would be less open to abuse...

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Rating systems
[info]xsmoonshine
2007-06-05 10:39 am UTC (link)
Ah! Fanfiction.net has a feature like that, only it's limited to the authors - ie, when you're logged in, you can see who has your story on their favourites list, and who has you on their favourite authors list. A public-view version of this would be keen if you want to check out who likes a story/author before deciding to read.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Rating systems - [info]anjak_j, 2007-06-05 11:04 am UTC
Re: Rating systems - [info]cimness, 2007-06-05 11:03 am UTC
Re: Rating systems - [info]anjak_j, 2007-06-05 11:22 am UTC
Re: Rating systems - [info]corinna_5, 2007-06-05 12:06 pm UTC
Re: Rating systems - [info]cimness, 2007-06-06 03:20 pm UTC
Re: Rating systems - [info]sivullinen, 2007-06-05 11:30 am UTC

[info]wesleysgirl
2007-06-05 11:12 am UTC (link)
Assuming the fic isn't archived at the site, but just linked to, I think it would be good for there to be a way for fans or site mods to comment with replacement links in case the author of the story leaves fandom and/or stops paying attention to the archive. It's very frustrating to go to an archive, find a great-sounding story, and then discover that the link is very old and the story is no longer where it once was! I see requests on LJ all the time that are essentially "I'm looking for X's story Y but her website's down -- does anyone know if the story's available somewhere else?" It'd be great if archive users had a place to leave that kind of information.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]franzeska
2007-06-06 01:35 am UTC (link)
The best way to deal with this would be to just have everything archived on the site itself.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]kerravonsen, 2007-06-13 10:50 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]rushin_doll, 2007-06-06 01:49 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]xenacryst, 2007-06-06 02:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]heatherudato, 2008-07-17 01:30 pm UTC
FLDF
[info]darthfox
2007-06-05 12:00 pm UTC (link)
Thank goodness, hurrah, etc. etc. I feel like this idea was kicked around several years ago in the Fandom.com period, and never really got off the ground -- but its time has certainly more than come. Rock on. Yay for the lawyers. And so on.

(Reply to this)


[info]karathephantom
2007-06-05 12:21 pm UTC (link)
Ooh, I'd love to see a Fandom Legal Defense Fund.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]paraka
2007-06-06 02:16 am UTC (link)
I'll second this. I know one person on my flist mentioned that she'd be hesitant to join a large archive because while most of fandom would jump to the defense of the BNF she's a smaller, less recognized writer in the fandom and felt that if heat were put on her, no one would come to her defense. I was really happy to read that the archive would fight C&Ds and would *not* shunt responsibility on individual writers. A Legal Defense Fund would be awesome.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]princessofg
2007-06-05 12:25 pm UTC (link)
*standing ovation*

i am in awe of the commitment and excellence i'm seeing; truly.

about ratings: two ideas:

some of the blogs that collect and rate blogs have a feature that tracks how many other blogs have linked to a given blog as a measure of reliability. of course, no system is immune to ballot-box-packing by friends of the fan author, but something like that that is automated, logging bookmarks or some such, might be best.

i think if you go with star ratings, three would be simplest. one, two or three stars. bad, okay, excellent. there is no way to truly judge fic for quality. no way at all. yeah, people complain that self posting archives are full of badfic. this cannot be changed.

personally i'd like to be able to link to a bunch of rec lists.

you guys are amazing. thank you.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]tejas
2007-06-05 01:47 pm UTC (link)
[puts on dayjob hat]

The only problem here is that people are more likely to rate something negatively than they are to rate it positively. It's a common problem encountered in non-fiction rating systems. Now on a fiction site, we might see the opposite happen, with people less likely to rate something negatively on the theory that if you can't say something nice, you shouldn't say anything at all.

Not saying it shouldn't be done, just keep in mind it probably won't work as imagined.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]rushin_doll, 2007-06-05 02:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tejas, 2007-06-05 02:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rushin_doll, 2007-06-05 02:24 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tejas, 2007-06-05 03:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rushin_doll, 2007-06-05 03:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tejas, 2007-06-05 03:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rushin_doll, 2007-06-05 03:56 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tejas, 2007-06-05 04:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rushin_doll, 2007-06-05 08:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kerravonsen, 2007-06-05 09:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rushin_doll, 2007-06-05 09:43 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kerravonsen, 2007-06-05 09:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rushin_doll, 2007-06-05 10:04 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tejas, 2007-06-05 10:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rushin_doll, 2007-06-05 10:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tejas, 2007-06-05 10:50 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rushin_doll, 2007-06-05 11:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tejas, 2007-06-05 11:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rushin_doll, 2007-06-05 11:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]braidsinherhair, 2007-06-05 11:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tejas, 2007-06-05 11:35 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rushin_doll, 2007-06-05 11:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tejas, 2007-06-05 11:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rushin_doll, 2007-06-06 12:14 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]tejas, 2007-06-06 12:25 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]xenacryst, 2007-06-07 04:42 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]tejas, 2007-06-07 05:06 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]rushin_doll, 2007-06-11 01:30 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]xenacryst, 2007-06-12 04:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]rushin_doll, 2007-06-13 03:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rushin_doll, 2007-06-13 04:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]braidsinherhair, 2007-06-06 12:24 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]tejas, 2007-06-06 12:36 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]braidsinherhair, 2007-06-06 12:48 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]tejas, 2007-06-06 01:06 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]rushin_doll, 2007-06-06 01:20 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]rushin_doll, 2007-06-05 11:39 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]braidsinherhair, 2007-06-06 12:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]xenacryst, 2007-06-09 01:36 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]zellieh, 2007-06-05 11:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]kyuuketsukirui, 2007-06-06 10:10 am UTC

[info]viverra_libro
2007-06-05 01:30 pm UTC (link)
I don't have much time, so I hope you'll forgive me for being brief. The project looks great on all counts but one -- I am concerned that the approach is that adult material "should not be banned". From my perspective, the adult material is what's in need of a safe, secure, permanent repository. Underage fen have numerous multifandom archives to choose from already, and non-adult material is generally noncontroverial enough that it's not going to be banned/deleted/DCMA'd from anywhere - not skyhawke or LJ or ff.net or anywhere else. It's the adult material that's in need of protection, and what should, IMO, receive the most focus.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]braidsinherhair
2007-06-05 11:38 pm UTC (link)
I respectfully disagree. I think that the "archive of our own" is for all fans to have a place to house all of their fic, not just to protect smutty writing from deletion. I as a fan like reading both porny stuff and "underage fic," and I don't think I'm alone in this. I think it'll be nice to have these features for all types of fic. The legal issues can surely be resolved with some sort of graduated account, where NC-17 and even PG-13 is protected from the kiddies' view until the proper birthday. (Assuming that everyone with an account is being honest about his or her age.)

I also think calling non-graphic fic "underage" is a misnomer, because just because a fic is suitable for all ages does not make it immature. From what I can tell, this project is taking a holistic view of fandom, and excluding good writing just because it happens to fall beneath a certain rating is as much of a mistake as banning a good story because it contains adult material.

And AFF is (sort of) a safe, secure, permanent repository for adult material.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]viverra_libro, 2007-06-06 12:53 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]braidsinherhair, 2007-06-06 01:20 am UTC

[info]tejas
2007-06-05 02:01 pm UTC (link)
One thing I've *always* wanted to see in an archive is the ability to find things based on how I (and many others) remember stories. When you (generic you) think back to something you read a year ago, you don't generally remember title, author, summary. No, you remember, "Oh, yeah, that one where Jack was turned into a cat!" While I can only think of one SG1 fic where Jack was, y'know, turned into a cat, a lot of these tropes get used over and over and over again (which is why it's called a trope - D'OH! ;-) with surprisingly different results. While I'm mono-fandomed at the moment, I suspect all fandoms are the same in this regard.

[info]green_grrl and [info]starting_gate both have rec lists that incorporate this idea to some extent and it makes it very easy to find stuff. Now, I'm not saying this should be the primary categorization type, but being able to include this as a secondary method could be *very* VERY useful for readers. Nor am I sure the author is the best one to do it. I know I've written stuff that I think of one way while the readers remember it as something else. So, maybe some sort of reader supplied tag that someone (the author maybe?) would codify after the first five or ten suggestions are made. ("The green house fic? *THAT'S* what they remember about this one???? Oh, well. Green House Fic it is.") If the author doesn't get back to it after a certain period, it could be something a team of secondary mods could codify from reader responses. It would be one of those on-going tasks with people pretty much just diving in from time to time to see what's past the coding date with the right number of reader suggestions and just do it. *shrug* Or something.

I have no idea if it would work or not, but oh, man, I'd love to see it happen.

(Reply to this)

Rating ideas from some non-fic related archives
[info]rallamajoop
2007-06-05 02:21 pm UTC (link)
Thinking about rating systems for fic, it occurs to me there are already several different methods which could be used to rank fic based on reader opinions which have been suggested for being incorporated into the archive, such as:

Number of bookmarks/favourites
Number of recs
Average rating (star scale, out of ten, etc)
Number of reviews/comments

I doubt any two of these would necessarily give the same ranking to any particular fic - someone might choose to bookmark a fic they wanted to keep reading despite not thinking it was quite up to reccommendation quality, for example; and as people have pointed out, none of these are likely to be a perfect system for indicating the quality of a fic. However, there may actually be a case for structuring the archive so users can search for highly-rated fic by any of the above.

My supporting example here is AMV.org, which has lists to let users see the top rated videos by "Top ten 10%" (ratings in a number of categories out of ten), "Top Star Scale" (a weekly rating system out of five stars), "Top Favourite Videos" and "Top Commented Videos". (Note: I think you need to be registered and logged in to view these lists, though membership is free.) There are plenty of good vids at the top of all of these lists, and many of which appear on more than one, but also quite a few which only appear on one of these lists and which I might not have found at all by any other method. Perhaps if we can't find one perfect rating system for fic, having several imperfect ones might still be a useful compromise?

Another rating system which I've had good experiences with is the favourites system on deviantart. The main advantage I've found is that thumbnails of recently favourited pictures are featured quite prominently on every users front page, so that even if the first few fanartists you find for a series which takes your interest are only mediocre, they'll often be able to lead you to better work very quickly. Of course, there'd be a big problem with trying to implement something similar for fanfic, and that's that it's a lot harder to judge the quality of a fic by a quote or a summary than a picture from a thumbnail. Still, I'd suggest that structuring pages so that a user's recs are obvious (or at the very least, easy to get to) could be one of the little things that makes a big difference when it comes to finding good fic.

(Reply to this)


[info]giglet
2007-06-05 03:36 pm UTC (link)
Wow! The amount of work and smarts that have gone into the discussion thus far is amazing!

Has anyone considered ways to make the archive robust in the face of spam/trolls/DDOS attacks? Maybe some of the systems set up by wikipedia could be useful in dealing with malicious misuse?

(Reply to this)


[info]litagemini
2007-06-05 06:42 pm UTC (link)
I followed this link from a friend's fic journal and I have a question about your archive project. I'm not an active fanfic writer anymore and worked on fandoms that are no longer so popular, but I tend to host any and all of my old "archive" fics on my personal web site because, well, ff.net kinda sucks. But the stories are /older,/ and 99 percent what is now called "gen." Would this sort of thing still be welcome in your archive?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]corinna_5
2007-06-05 08:07 pm UTC (link)
Absolutely! There's been some discussion especially around making the site a resource for fannish history in other ways, so older fandoms/stories would be a welcome addition.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Woohoo, Tech Rollcall Thread!
[info]rushin_doll
2007-06-05 11:52 pm UTC (link)
So a concern I voiced in a thread farther up this page is that we've got a lot of people with a lot of great ideas, but I've not heard much from people with a technical background. We need to hear from those people for a number of reasons. Reasons like: they're going to have to make this happen on the software end, they know what's possible and what would be cool but can't be done, they know what's already out there that might work for us.

I figured that with that in mind, I'd start a thread where people with experience can sound off. (I'm hoping that the mods can either use this, or let us know a better place to do it if it's inappropriate here.)

So, I guess I'll go first. I've got some experience with managing a shared-webhosting account. This includes database design, simple algorithms, and working with existing social software (phpBB, Vanilla, WordPress, some Jabber); all on a relatively small scale which means I've never had enough traffic to worry about resource-management. I have a fairly extensive background in the theory of large-scale databases but no practical experience (which means while I can say "that's a resource-intensive function" I don't know when it becomes "an infeasibly resource-intensive function").

Who else is out there,
Ana

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Woohoo, Tech Rollcall Thread!
[info]xenacryst
2007-06-07 05:00 am UTC (link)
*raises hand* (but you probably saw that above *g*)

I'm a unix systems administrator by day, and I do a heck of a lot of work with a number of infrastructure things -- databases, email systems, web servers, etc. I program in perl, shell, and sometimes PHP, and can speak SQL reasonably fluently. Java (and C++) and I have differences of opinion, and my C is decidedly not sharp anymore. ;> I used to concentrate in security and numerical modeling, but I've become much more of a generalist these days.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Woohoo, Tech Rollcall Thread! - [info]tejas, 2007-06-13 04:42 am UTC
Re: Woohoo, Tech Rollcall Thread! - [info]selenay936, 2007-06-13 11:14 am UTC
Re: Woohoo, Tech Rollcall Thread! - [info]wenchpixie, 2007-06-13 11:20 am UTC
Re: Woohoo, Tech Rollcall Thread! - [info]tejas, 2007-06-13 02:54 pm UTC
Re: Woohoo, Tech Rollcall Thread! - [info]notapipe, 2007-06-17 07:31 pm UTC
Re: Woohoo, Tech Rollcall Thread! - (Anonymous), 2007-08-10 10:33 pm UTC
Rating system for badly-written fic
[info]zellieh
2007-06-06 12:14 am UTC (link)
People who object to badfic (including me) mostly seem to object to the stuff that's badly written (misspelled, bad grammar, weird punctuation), but any human rating system is open to abuse, so why not do it by machine?

I know I've seen some quiz/game/test websites where you can copy and paste text into a box, and then the computer analyses it and tells you how many spelling mistakes you've made.

If we could put a tool like that into the archive, and make the results into a star rating for quality of english, then it could be fairer than a human system, and useful, too.

It wouldn't do anything for OOC-ness or squickiness, but that tends to be subjective anyway.

It's just a thought, though - I am not a programmer, and I have no idea how tools like this work. It might be too resource-hungry for the site.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Rating system for badly-written fic
[info]braidsinherhair
2007-06-06 12:41 am UTC (link)
I haven't got any technical background either, and so I can't speak to the resources of having this feature built-in to the site, but I tend to think that it is an author's job to spell-check his or her work, and with the number of names and places that would come up as misspelled on a spell-checker, not to mention the perfectly legitimate stylistic liberties that people can take with the English language and remain readable, even great authors, this would not be a good tool to use. I think that there should maybe be a button to flag badly spelled or formatted fics, and maybe a link to the open-source version of Writer's Workbench. If a fic gets too many flags, well, not only is that embarrassing and bound to drive off readers, but it might encourage an author to find a beta, or just proofread.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: Rating system for badly-written fic - [info]paraka, 2007-06-06 02:59 am UTC
Re: Rating system for badly-written fic - [info]kyuuketsukirui, 2007-06-06 10:21 am UTC
Re: Rating system for badly-written fic - [info]loligo, 2007-06-06 12:53 pm UTC
Re: Rating system for badly-written fic - [info]icarusancalion, 2007-06-08 02:46 am UTC
Concerns - age content
[info]ausmac
2007-06-06 12:57 am UTC (link)
This area is of particular concern to readers/writers who, for example, live in Australia. It's now prohibited in Australia to be involved with any written material featuring characters engaged in sexual activity under 18 years of age. As I understand it, that probably includes reading as well as writing, so accessing a website, which would be downloaded by your browser, could well constitute an illegal act. I don't know what the law is in other countries and as onerous as this legislation is, it's a fact of life for us in this country.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Concerns - age content
[info]rushin_doll
2007-06-06 01:05 am UTC (link)
This is definitely something to run by the legal people (which I'm certainly not), but from a technical standpoint it should be possible to simply set up another set of filters (similar to the ones we'll be using for "adult" content). If you want to view a fic with flagged-content type X, then you have to be signed in and your user account must meet certain requirements. If it turns out that you're right, then people from Australia could be blocked from that content.

Major problems include:
-Not having too many types of flagged content. If we expect authors to police their own content, then it has to be a really short list if we expect them to stay involved.
-It may still be problematic due to the fact that it's easy for users (on their accounts or as authors) to lie, and some people might not flag their content. Those two things may be enough to still cause legal problems.

So, yeah, legal issue first, I think.

Not a lawyer,
Ana

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: Concerns - age content - [info]braidsinherhair, 2007-06-06 01:29 am UTC
Re: Concerns - age content - [info]dr_jekyl, 2007-06-06 03:38 am UTC
Re: Concerns - age content - [info]kyuuketsukirui, 2007-06-06 10:24 am UTC
Re: Concerns - age content - [info]ausmac, 2007-06-06 12:32 pm UTC

[info]rez_lo
2007-06-06 01:30 am UTC (link)
So impressive! Thank you for boiling down the many-branching discussion to date.

I'd like to add agreement to those who've been saying that ranking systems per se aren't very useful either to readers or writers, and what will be much more workable is a set of flexible features that allow each user to find and build her library by following associations to stories she wants and those she prefers to avoid.

I hope there will also be a set of features that will enable the writer/artist to do the same with each of her works--associate and describe them in any way she sees fit, and which can then be accessible to other users.

As someone noted above, FFN's system of making author favorites visible to anyone who's logged in seems like a good way to start thinking about how the system of associations might work. I also hope that all such information--who's favorited a given story, who's recced it, how many times, etc.--can be displayed on a separate page via a link. None of the stars, review stats, or any other marker I've ever seen employed is at all useful to me as a reader, since they all depend on context and association.

Thanks again for the succinct and readable summary!

(Reply to this)


[info]nagasvoice
2007-06-06 02:52 am UTC (link)
Just In Case, I wanted to crosspost a comment from the interesting suggestion that fans buy controlling stock in lj itself. They make some excellent points about the applicable laws governing servers (and how there isn't international agreement about Internet flaps) and how fandom retreats behind its anonymity, while expecting other people to defend their rights.
To trace the thread, I began here:
http://cordelia-v.livejournal.com/191902.html?view=2974110

followed to this excellent posting, discussing how this persecution issue recurs, and is going to go on doing so, here:
http://tienriu.livejournal.com/164076.html
(I say, recruit these folks, please, all of them...)

and then to this comment, here:
http://tienriu.livejournal.com/164076.html

That group is here:
http://community.livejournal.com/fandom_lawyers/

Maybe I'm pounding the obvious here, but has anybody consulted over there with the fandom legal eagles there as yet?


(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]danceswchopstck
2007-06-14 08:43 pm UTC (link)
Hi--did you mean for your second and third links to be the same? Thanks for the pointers.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]nagasvoice, 2007-06-15 02:18 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]phoenixw, 2007-08-11 03:32 am UTC

[info]icarusancalion
2007-06-08 02:41 am UTC (link)
Thank you, this really helps clarify what's going on. I'm particularly anxious that an easy-to-find "recs" feature be included (right off the home page). That is how we navigate and deal with the quality control problem in fandom now.

Recs are extremely important. Think of how much we rely on them.

Icarus

(Reply to this)


[info]featherlane
2007-06-08 02:53 pm UTC (link)
I might be coming in a little late for suggestions, but one thing I would really love to see is a kind of primer for new people to fandom - like a Fandom 101. I discovered slash a few years ago, at 13, and not only was I lost among unfamiliar acronyms, but I thought the whole concept was pretty weird. If this is going to be a big fannish destination, it should have a little section to ease newbies into things - the vocabulary, the history, why we're not pervs, really, and also the etiquette - I think a lot of people who misspell things and use improper punctuation just do it because they don't know any better.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]_workinprogress
2007-06-13 09:30 am UTC (link)
Maybe we can include a wiki of some sort?

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]ainsley
2007-06-13 02:55 am UTC (link)
stopping point for weekly summary, 2007.06.12

(Reply to this)


[info]rushin_doll
2007-06-14 03:36 pm UTC (link)
In the interest of keeping all discussion in a single post, here's something [info]rallamajoop and I were tossing around in the most recent summary post.

It's just a short exchange so far, but there are two primary questions involved:

1. It's pretty traditional within archives these days that an author has full control of their work. They may, if they wish, edit at will or even delete a work from the archive entirely. Now, personally, I really hate looking for a fic I really liked only to find that the author has disappeared and pulled it. Then I wander around trying to find someone who saved a local copy. It is technically possible to make fics unremovable. But people expect control, would making fics unremovable by authors alienate a large chunk of the user-base?

2. Anonymous authoring. Two potential flavors here: one which is truly anonymous and people can simply post fics to the archive without user accounts, and one in which authors can hide their identity (temporarily or possibly permanently) to assist with anonymous fic exchanges and such. This is a fundamental data-structure issue. If this is something we want to include, then we're going to have to look at including it at the beginning. What are some potential problems (technical and social) with anonymous posting of either type?

The first discussion sort of came to a point where [info]rallamajoop and I were in too close agreement to get somewhere. We probably need the input of someone who is strongly in favor of full authorial control to make sure that we aren't letting our blind spots hide important reasons to support that. The second one we've barely gotten started with. Let's pick it up here.

Summarily,
Ana

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]paraka
2007-06-14 06:08 pm UTC (link)
As to #1 there, I do think that you'll alientate a *lot* of people if you try that. Maybe if you want a middle ground you could try something like for leaving a message saying that the story was taken down. Like each author has an "archived" section and a "deleted" section (with space for an author to explain why it was taken down). That way people can see that it was once there, and hopefully through the authors profile can contact them to see about getting their hands on the material that way. ... Or something.

I realize that this is supposed to be a permanent type of archive, but if you take away authors control over their material they won't sign up. Actually we'll probably become what we're trying to avoid: another fanlib.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]rallamajoop, 2007-06-15 01:47 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]usomitai, 2007-06-17 01:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]rushin_doll, 2007-06-17 10:20 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]usomitai, 2007-06-17 11:53 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]paraka, 2007-06-17 01:35 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rallamajoop, 2007-06-18 01:11 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]diurnal_lee, 2007-06-26 04:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rallamajoop, 2007-06-27 04:06 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]jelliclekat, 2007-06-18 08:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rallamajoop, 2007-06-19 01:26 am UTC
Solution to ratings
[info]sethb
2007-06-16 02:08 am UTC (link)
One reason rating systems fail is that the same rating applies for everybody. But not everybody has the same tastes.

A way to make one work is to allow everybody to rate whatever they want, and once they've rated some stuff, the software can see how well other people's ratings correlate with theirs. It can then predict the rating *that reader* would give a particular work, and decide what to show based on those predicted ratings (and update its prediction mechanism whenever the user rates something else).

It's still possible to game the system, but it's a lot harder and doesn't work as well. (E.g. if I rate all my friends' stuff high, I'll be ignored. If I carefully rate a lot of stuff accurately, and rate my friends' stuff high, I'll get some credibility for the former but the latter would lower it.)

(Reply to this)


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