tema ([info]tema) wrote in [info]optimus_project,
@ 2006-12-13 15:48:00
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Small OLEDs
One of the most difficult tasks in making the Optimus-103 real is finding displays of such a small size. Most of the OLED displays are designed with mobile phones or MP3 players in mind. We were lucky enough to find OLEDs for the Optimus mini three, but these displays are four times as big as the ones we need for keyboard indended for typing.

For the Optimus-103 OLEDs have to be custom-made. We have to choose the manufacturer next week (there are some of them), define the specs and finance every production stage including the tooling. Tooling itself costs a minimum of US$70-100k. Production cycle takes at least three months. Every display costs about US$10. Multiply that by the number of active keys.

Anyway, we are hoping to play with the working sample sometime in the Spring of 2007.

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(Anonymous)
2006-12-13 01:00 pm UTC (link)
I really enjoy these updates. The transparency of your working process is really cool.

Good luck bringing that cost down. Still the most innovative computer accessory i am aware of.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]armitige3
2006-12-13 01:04 pm UTC (link)
I'm in total agreement. While the features of the keyboard are my biggest interest, the steps through which you're going are fascinating.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-12-15 10:18 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-12-13 08:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-12-14 08:39 am UTC
Price is no issue - (Anonymous), 2006-12-13 08:48 pm UTC

(Anonymous)
2006-12-13 01:12 pm UTC (link)
ok, we all understand that it is not cheap to manufacture such gadgets but may be you can cooperate with some bigger companies and make a product that would be cheaper that done all by yourself and at the end you will sell more of them. More of us will be able to afford it and you get your piece of cake.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

(Anonymous)
2006-12-13 01:38 pm UTC (link)
I guess they tried but didn't find one, or they wouldn't have received the appropriate price (which they expected). Would have been cool if Logitech bought the idea, they are innovative and would have the money to fund the idea. Their name alone would triple orders, I guess...

(Reply to this) (Parent)
Logitech, eh? - (Anonymous), 2006-12-13 02:30 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-12-14 05:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-12-15 10:28 am UTC

[info]heweili
2006-12-13 01:12 pm UTC (link)
I know you get a lot of negative feedback, particularly with the news lately, and I just wanted to say that I'm thankful that you go through the effort to update us, rather than just leaving us in the dark.

Thanks!

(Reply to this) (Thread)

(Anonymous)
2006-12-13 01:21 pm UTC (link)
Agreed, thanks Tema + Crew!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
+ 1 - [info]jaf_alsan, 2006-12-13 02:08 pm UTC
Re: + 1 - [info]ellie_desu, 2006-12-13 05:35 pm UTC
+1 - [info]andreidubinin, 2006-12-14 08:42 am UTC

(Anonymous)
2006-12-13 02:08 pm UTC (link)
sooo... about $1K ? oO

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]melstav
2006-12-13 02:47 pm UTC (link)
Yeah.

Actually, for at least the near future, you can assume they'll probably cost more.

Because not only are they paying $10 per display, but they've got to incorporate some percentage of the setup costs into every unit to try making that money back. If their initial estimates on tooling are US$75K-100K, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the TOTAL setup costs are somewhere around $150K. (granted, that's just a WAG)

Sure, it'll be expensive.

But look at what you get.

Your Average Joe thinks this would be great for changing the labels on his keys for playing games.

Where this will REALLY shine is in industry.

It could make point of sale devices easier to use. People running cash registers, especially in fast food industry, (stereotypically - I know there are a LOT of exceptions to the stereotype) aren't the brightest. If you can make it harder for your cashiers to mess up by putting pictures or different labels on the keys, you're less likely that your customers will have a bad experience, and more likely to get their repeat business.

It could make professional translation services easier by giving the user the ability to remap their keyboards to different locales on the fly.

An engineer may use several highly complex applications in the course of their day. (CAD/CAM, numerical analysis, signal processing, compilers, etc) If the engineer's computer was running a utility in the background that detected which application window was active, and changed the labels of the keys to match that application's keyboard shortcuts, you could save a lot of time hunting through pull-down menus. And if your engineering staff is costing you US$50-100/hour, anything that makes their jobs easier and makes them more productive saves you a lot of money real quick.

When looked at from the POV of business or industry, it doesn't take much to find justification to spend $1K-$1.5K for a keyboard that does what the 103 could, conceivably be made to do.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
(no subject) - [info]theholymac, 2006-12-14 02:05 am UTC
GyRo567 (that's my name...)
(Anonymous)
2006-12-13 02:36 pm UTC (link)
The cool. =)

(Reply to this)

cost
(Anonymous)
2006-12-13 02:42 pm UTC (link)
The cost of the keyobard is no surprise.. These guys are making the first OLED keyboard.. When you make the first of anything its gonna be expensive.. But don't be surprised that be people would buy.. It is revolutionary.. but the price is impractical for regular consumer..

I would have just gone for the B&W keyboard.. It probably only would have costed 200-300 dollars.. but would have the same functionality..

I think all who have complained about the cost of the b&w keyboard is just screwing them selves.. I personally would have went for it..

Now this OLED keyboard is gonna be 1000 bucks.. haha

but rest assure.. if they license the mini OLEDs to other keyboard manufacturers this keyboard may be cheaper in the future..

For example.. think about the LCD TV's.. 5 years ago they were 6-7 grand for a 42" now its close to a 1000 bucks..

(Reply to this) (Thread)
Re: cost
[info]melstav
2006-12-13 03:00 pm UTC (link)
if they license the mini OLEDs to other keyboard manufacturers this keyboard may be cheaper in the future..

Any time you're talking about manufacturing, the more of something you make at the same time, the cheaper each individual piece is going to be. It's just a fact of life. The manufacturer has to take all of the costs of setting up the machinery and average them over however many copies you're going to make before you have to change the setup.

Plus, processing a handful of really big orders is actually less costly than handling a lot of relatively small orders, even if the total quantities of parts are identical.

One thing that might be beneficial is to make the OLED displays, and even pre-assembled key modules, available to hobbyists, small businesses, and OEMs.

Get more people interested in them, incorporating them into projects, and you'll increase the number that it makes sense to have made at a time, driving the individual manufacturing cost down.

(Reply to this) (Parent)
Re: cost - (Anonymous), 2007-01-17 05:10 pm UTC

[info]sockatume
2006-12-13 02:51 pm UTC (link)
So, either it's going to be sold at a loss or your $1200 price was bang on. Well, here's hoping that you get plenty of sales to people with too much money so you can get more OLED screens made and lower the price.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

(Anonymous)
2006-12-15 10:29 am UTC (link)
There's a camera growing out of your ear! That might explain your rather worried look on the photo. I suggest seeing a doctor, you'd be amazed what modern science is capable of.

--mip

(Reply to this) (Parent)
Hmmm...
(Anonymous)
2006-12-13 04:11 pm UTC (link)
I guess a good mobile phone costs about US$2000 then?

-JimXugle

(Reply to this) (Thread)
Re: Hmmm...
(Anonymous)
2007-01-09 11:06 pm UTC (link)
If the good mobile had 103 screens it would, yes. think before typing :)

(Reply to this) (Parent)
$1200 Again
(Anonymous)
2006-12-13 04:15 pm UTC (link)
Hearing that they keyboard will cost $1200 in this reasoned context is a lot less infuriating than hearing about it in the context of something that could have been a joke. Thanks for the update on getting this thing produced.

-NK

(Reply to this)

Ouch
(Anonymous)
2006-12-13 04:36 pm UTC (link)
I hope you mean the cost to the end user is $10 a key, and not your cost of $10 a key. If your cost is $10 a key, then that would mean your cost per keyboard would be $1030, making this probably about a $2000 keyboard retail.

For a pro user like me, I could spend about $1500 on such a keyboard. it would bring my productivity up, and would make my studio look cooler, which, since I have clients paying me a lot of money to be in there, is worth it.

the sad thing is that at around $500, I think most Pro tools users would want one for sure, and you would sell a lot of them. Hmmmm....

(Reply to this) (Thread)
Re: Ouch
(Anonymous)
2006-12-13 05:22 pm UTC (link)
Actually I believe he said that it's $1030 just for the OLEDs not the keyboard itself. So that doesn't included cables, plastic housing, circuit board, etc.

(Reply to this) (Parent)
Re: Ouch - (Anonymous), 2006-12-13 05:39 pm UTC
Re: Ouch - [info]tommasta, 2006-12-13 10:46 pm UTC
Touchscreen?
(Anonymous)
2006-12-13 05:35 pm UTC (link)
Might one big touchscreen cost less than 103 separate keys? You may be able to lay a membrane across the top with slightly raised "keys". It wouldn't be as cool as having real keys and pressing a membrane is not as satisfying as pressing a keyboard key, but it might be much cheaper!

(Reply to this) (Thread)
Re: Touchscreen?
[info]swedenborgspace
2006-12-13 06:10 pm UTC (link)
I agree with the lack of tactile feedback actual keys provide, but one big slab of touchscreen OLED on my desk would be very pretty. Instead of individual key frames, the graphics could seemlessly bleed across the whole panel. Sexy!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
Re: Touchscreen? - (Anonymous), 2006-12-13 09:05 pm UTC
Re: Touchscreen? - (Anonymous), 2006-12-13 08:49 pm UTC
Re: Touchscreen? - (Anonymous), 2006-12-13 09:13 pm UTC
Re: Touchscreen? - (Anonymous), 2006-12-14 04:08 am UTC

[info]nuns_islander
2006-12-13 07:12 pm UTC (link)
Was the price of B&W version similar to this? Is it why you abandoned the idea?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]sockatume
2006-12-13 09:54 pm UTC (link)
I imagine B&W would've been cheaper, but still in the same "ludicrous" price band, so they might as well go with colour and attract as much interest as possible.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(Anonymous)
2006-12-13 07:23 pm UTC (link)
i think all of you guys are looking at it wrong.. its 10 dollars a key for all the keys that are OLED.. which exclude the tab key, arrow keys 6 functions keys on top of the arrow keys and the number pad..
minus the enter key

so if there are actually 60-70 keys..
plus the cost of everything.. we are looking at a 1200-1500 dollar keyboard at least..


(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]syukton
2006-12-28 05:46 pm UTC (link)
Why would those keys not change? Does your "tab" key do any tabbing in games? In some games it's "select next target" or "change view" and the key could be changed to reflect this functionality. What about the function keys atop the arrow keys, those are often used for camera adjustment within the game and should also be changeable. I think you're missing the point, which is to have a keyboard that is 100% configurable; making assumptions about how people will use the keyboard isn't what the Art. Lebedev people are about.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(Anonymous)
2006-12-13 08:58 pm UTC (link)
I see its not keyboard of average Joe anymore. But there are plenty of people don't have to ask prices. They may drink champagne that cost $1000 per bottle etc...

I was thinking about if it would be possible to implement pressure sensitive keys as well to make this thing really superior to anything we already know. Just sample rubber membrane key signals with AD converter. Some joystic emulation with keys would be cool. Or keyboard could decide whether to use uppercase or not.

Another idea is to make cheaper keyboard with just say 60 displays. It would be fine if only most important keys were covered. Alt, Shift, Spacebar, Arrows etc are nearly same in every app.

(Reply to this) (Thread)
LOOK I'M TYPING UPPERCASE
(Anonymous)
2006-12-15 10:35 am UTC (link)
your idea is the best! Every 16-yr old will have a great time, banging on your keyboard to get uppercase! I'm not sure how that would influence the expected lifetime of the keyboard, though :)

--mip

(Reply to this) (Parent)
mitest
(Anonymous)
2006-12-13 09:43 pm UTC (link)
Hi
i
Bye

(Reply to this)

Artemy, while you are at it...
(Anonymous)
2006-12-13 11:26 pm UTC (link)
BRING BACK THE 113!!!

well, this update although rather encouraging to some, just proves how in the dark this whole project is. who knows how many people waiting for this keyboard know a f@ck about industrial design and manufacturing, but thanks for the update, letting us all know that you just found out that this keyboard will be expensive to produce. all the vaporware comments were actually warranted. 12/12 to spring 07 prototype stages. fuck us all, there is no way in shit we will see this keyboard for christmas 07.

since you pulled your head out of your ass and decided to bring back the color, why don't you just bring back the 113???

i would happily pay $100 more for 10 more keys. don't give a donkey shit if the keyboard is $1500, just bring back your amazing concept and stick with it YA HEARD???

BRING BACK THE MUTHA FUCKIN 113!!!

(Reply to this)


[info]garbagedonkey
2006-12-14 12:24 am UTC (link)
I knew you would pull through because you are king of the Russian pirates.

Just sell 150 of these things at 1500 bucks, and boo ya :)

very nice update Tema

(Reply to this)


(Anonymous)
2006-12-14 11:14 am UTC (link)
Well the price was to be expected.

But as everyone else has been saying, please make sure that the keys stick with the concept, as in square OLED screens that fill the whole key. And please bring back either the 10 function keys or make the numpad keys with OLED screens aswell.

One of the biggest "wow" points of the concept was the ability to have custom function keys that displayed a colour picture of the application or macro it controlled. Now if you won't make it a 113 to start with, at least release an optimus configurator that will allow the numpad keys to be turned into function keys :)

Look forward to hearing more :P and if i can find the money i'll definately be buying one

(Reply to this)

mariannna
(Anonymous)
2006-12-14 03:39 pm UTC (link)
Hi
p
Bye

(Reply to this)

mobiBLU cube2 OLED
(Anonymous)
2006-12-14 05:04 pm UTC (link)
http://www.mobibluamerica.com/cube2.html
they are quite tiny

(Reply to this) (Thread)
Re: mobiBLU cube2 OLED
(Anonymous)
2006-12-15 06:15 am UTC (link)
There ya go, that's a possibility. Making more of those screens would be beneficial to both parties.

(Reply to this) (Parent)
Re: mobiBLU cube2 OLED - (Anonymous), 2006-12-15 01:07 pm UTC
mariannna
(Anonymous)
2006-12-14 05:56 pm UTC (link)
Hi all!
p
G'night

(Reply to this)


(Anonymous)
2006-12-14 06:55 pm UTC (link)
In February Logitech s gonna introduce a keyboard with 300 buttons for 800USD with MASSIVE AD CAMPAIGN IN ALL MEDIA and you're busted.

Don't flatter youself on design - they'll hire THE BEST industrial designers whatsoever and LAWERS for whatever dude who invented the original Chameleon keybord to drive you out of business in 5 sec.

You'll be designing paper towel packaging for the rest of your life!!


(Reply to this) (Thread)

(Anonymous)
2006-12-14 09:22 pm UTC (link)
hehe

goosfraba

(Reply to this) (Parent)
Alternatives
(Anonymous)
2006-12-15 06:59 am UTC (link)
Is there any alternative and cheaper coloured displays that perhaps have a lower refresh rate, or lower resolution, or whatever?

(Reply to this) (Thread)
Re: Alternatives
(Anonymous)
2006-12-15 10:44 am UTC (link)
there was a guy here showing his keyboard with LEDs with very low resolution. It was cheap as hell in very many ways. You can find it in the comments of older posts, somewhere.

(Reply to this) (Parent)
Linux Support?
(Anonymous)
2006-12-15 10:00 am UTC (link)
Hello,

thanks for your great work on this keyboard! I'm very interested on it!

But, there is a question: Will there be any Linux Support???

thanks and go on with your freakin' work

comes@debianforum.de

(Reply to this)

Keyboard with a few display-buttons
(Anonymous)
2006-12-15 10:39 am UTC (link)
Why not make a keyboard with say 3 to 10 display buttons.
They could be placed instead of the media or internet-buttons some keyboards have.

For general keyboard layout I recommend the Logitech G15, e.g. backlight for the other buttons, deactivation of Win-button needed for some games, extra keys perhaps.

The function of the small display on this keyboard could be replaced by the display-buttons too, showing e.g. FPS (frames per second from FRAPS) or similar.

Good luck for your project,
blackrat

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