Our man in Eurovisionia ([info]nick_at_esc) wrote in [info]oneurope_live,
@ 2008-05-26 16:10:00
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A fairer kind of televoting
I'm thinking out loud here, so this probably has a glaring loophole or is completely non-viable for some reason that I haven't spotted yet. At the moment, the points are allocated by counting the absolute number of telephone calls and SMSes made, with all the fun and enjoyment which that leads to when the points get announced. I'm going to propose a system that would - I think - exactly cancel out the effects of friendship and diaspora and focus the results back on the popularity of the songs.

It gets complicated very quickly, but it'd take a matter of seconds for a computer to sort it all out. Country A to Country B</b>
Occurrence 1: 5% (24 options)
Occurrence 2: 2% (27 options)
Occurrence 3: 3% (24 options)
Occurrence 4: 7% (22 options)
Occurrence 5: 1% (25 options)

We'll then normalise that to convert to the number of options available in the next contest - presumed to be 24, in this case.

1: 5% x 24 / 24 = 5%
2: 2% x 27 / 24 = 2.25%
3: 3% x 24 / 24 = 3%
4: 7% x 22 / 24 = 6.42%
5: 1% x 25 / 24 = 1.04%

We then take an average of these five figures, to give us our Target Score (TS) - in this case, 3.54% of the total televotes cast.

We then look at the scores from our new event, in which Country B receives (for example) 3.9% of the televotes cast. This makes their Comparative Score (CS) in this year's contest +0.36 (3.9 - 3.54). If they got 3.4% of the televote, then their CS would be -0.14. and so on.

In order to allocate the points awarded by country A, we rank the CS figures of all their 24 options. Whoever has the best CS figure receives the 12, next best gets the 10 and so on.

Where a televoting pair hasn't occurred 5 times before, the TS calculation is padded by assuming that Country B took part in an event (or events) where all the options received equal numbers of votes - in this case, 100/24 = 4.17% of the votes.

Drawbacks - this will tend to favour those countries which are new to the contest with significant diasporas, or those who have been sending streams of rancid llama poo for the last several years. It also increasingly handicaps those that have been in genuinely good form for several years, as they have to keep outdoing themselves to get good scores. Finally, it *does* mean that the result doesn't truly reflect the votes cast this year. And, it's complicated to explain to the public - assuming that you even try to explain it to the public.

Advantages - the results become truly unpredictable again, and will favour those countries which are in improving form or sending genuinely great songs. It also neatly and precisely negates the diaspora effects on a country-by-country basis.

Thoughts? Other than "My head hurts...", which I think is almost guaranteed with my harebrained schemes!



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well
[info]cj136uk
2008-05-26 04:01 pm UTC (link)
it's alittle complicated, how about 50% juries and 50% televote, as with MF principle?

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Re: well
[info]nick_at_esc
2008-05-26 04:05 pm UTC (link)
Phil was certainly proposing the "Strictly Come Dancing" approach on Saturday night - rank each country's televote 25-24-23-22...3-2-1, the jury scores in the same way, add them together and if there's a tie then the televote position takes precedence. I just fear that blending two demonstrably flawed systems isn't the way to create a good one! :-)

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Re: well
[info]cj136uk
2008-05-26 04:06 pm UTC (link)
juries may help be the ointment to cure all friendly voting

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Re: well
[info]nick_at_esc
2008-05-26 04:07 pm UTC (link)
You need to recall why there was pressure to scrap the juries in the first place...

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Re: well
[info]cj136uk
2008-05-26 04:09 pm UTC (link)
I know but it's far worse now than then;)

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Re: well
[info]ufopoli
2008-05-26 04:44 pm UTC (link)
Jury votes can and will be bought. Money is hardly a better criterion than nationality.

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Re: well
[info]cj136uk
2008-05-26 04:48 pm UTC (link)
doesn't stop universal to send all their employees on a we jolly to Ukraine to Guarenttee a 12 points

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Re: well
[info]ufopoli
2008-05-26 04:51 pm UTC (link)
Don't understand?

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Re: well
[info]cj136uk
2008-05-26 04:53 pm UTC (link)
universal music, the record company can and do direct their employees all over europe to vote for their songs, they also send their employees over the border to vote...

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Re: well
[info]ufopoli
2008-05-26 04:57 pm UTC (link)
Well, they certainly can. How probable that is, is another question.

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Re: well
[info]cj136uk
2008-05-26 04:59 pm UTC (link)
a memo this year was sent out at Universal music... I prefer juries... you say they can be bought, but they need to get through the EBU planted officials first...

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Re: well
[info]mag_2000
2008-05-26 04:51 pm UTC (link)
Juries may help, to some extent, to reduce diaspora voting. They can't help to eliminate neighbor voting.

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Re: well
[info]brigbother
2008-05-26 04:20 pm UTC (link)
I read somewhere they're trying this for the Junior Song Contest. Is this true?

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Re: well
[info]nick_at_esc
2008-05-26 06:16 pm UTC (link)
I don't know if that's the precise procedure they're using, but it's certainly going to be 50-50 jury-televote.

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Re: well
[info]ufopoli
2008-05-26 04:43 pm UTC (link)
Mixing two separate opinions simultaneously only favours mediocrity, so that's not an option. However, simply ranking the televotes (from 25 to 1) could work as it would emphasize the effect of universal appeal.

Another possibility might be allocating each country's points as a percentage out of 100 equal to the share of votes received.

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voting
(Anonymous)
2008-05-26 05:46 pm UTC (link)
Nick, your suggestion is way too complicated and I'm not sure it can be explained to anyone in several simple words.I don't understand how did you come to the options and why these figures and not other figures. Your system depends on computer sorting out the result, which take only one mistake of programming to fuck it up.

Televoting and juries are both not an ideal systems, but I tend to agree that it is much easier to influence a jury than a televoter.

I was thinking about another system-all countries vote but only the ones in the final announce their vote. The non qualifiers are gathered in one group which will be the 26th country and they give 1 extra vote,and not 18 extra votes(just for the record-I have already read this idea somewhere else.Someone was quicker than me and have already expressed this idea-I was thinking the same but probably not been that original)

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Re: voting
[info]nick_at_esc
2008-05-26 06:15 pm UTC (link)
The simple version runs like this - you're trying to get some kind of numerical measure of how much each country pair has a natural bias towards (or against!) awarding votes, and then remove that natural bias from the final points that are awarded.

The specific figures are purely examples to show how it would work in real life. It might well be that in somewhere like Greece, Cyprus's target figure would be nearer 80%; or that in Ireland, the UK's target would be somewhere in the 15% range.

Every system relies on a computer or a person doing some number crunching, so I don't accept that as an argument against. Indeed, I reckon a computerised system is far more likely to get it right.

The "only finalists vote" idea has been doing the rounds for years, and has been thoroughly debunked by now. All it achieves is to make the voting procedure shorter - it doesn't in any way make it fairer.

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Re: voting
(Anonymous)
2008-05-26 07:58 pm UTC (link)
What if: only finalist vote directly and then rest of the contries not participating votes like "one country", and then just one vote per telephone for all voting?

You'll never stop this: every country and that is every country give votes to their closest neighbour/friends - and that is just normal

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Re: voting
(Anonymous)
2008-05-26 08:19 pm UTC (link)
I didn't say only finalists vote.Actually I did said that everyone vote,every single country participating will be able to televote. I did suggest that the finalists will have more influence than the non finalists(see it as another way to encourage country to qualify, or as a reward for the qualifiers).Is it fair, probably not.But I don't think you can find a system that can reduce neighbouring voting. You can try and minimize the effect.



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Europe nation (opinion from East)
(Anonymous)
2008-05-26 11:52 pm UTC (link)
Nick, I got your system actually. It has some good points, but its biggest flaw is that thing about having to outdo yourself every year, which is practically impossible.
In general, you can't estimate with numbers the percentage of neighbour/diasporra voting and simply remove it, because nothing else would be left!
I offer several solutions:
1. jury plus televoting is probably the best idea to try, and it may not necessarily be 50/50, it could be 70/30 or like that;
2. I agree with the idea of estimating votes in accordance with each country's vote share. This would be justice, as the entire point of ESC is Europe's PEOPLE choosing the winner - that means, the absolute number of people who chose the winning entry should be more than the people who have voted for other songs (thus, a problem arises with the possibility to vote for more than one song). I don't think most winners so far made it with majority of European people supporting them; they made it because the system allowed it. So, either the voting share should be taken into consideration, OR each country's population (allocating a different number to each country, that is combined or derived from its points).
3. Separating West voting and East voting might be a chance too. They can make Western countries vote for East *only* and vice versa. Since Eastern countries are more, they can double the points from the West, or something like that. This would probably be the most interesting one to see from its "East-votes-for-West" perspective, since East has never voted for Western countries and personally, I'd like to see how they'll vote for the West.
4. Separate bloc-semifinals was an interesting idea I read somewhere: making different semifinals and voting procedures for Nordic bloc, Balkan bloc, Soviet bloc, etc, which will make each of them produce equal number of participants for the final. However, by making that, EBU would surrender to the accusations that blocs do exist, and from what I see so far, they seem to passionately deny it.

I find it surprising that many people still claim that neighbour/diasporra voting is not a big deal and it doesn't choose the winner directly. WELL, I agree - you can't make a winner with the votes of East only (you need West as well), but then you also can't make a winner *without* votes of East - and the big problem is that not a single one of them goes for Western country.

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Re: Europe nation (opinion from East)
(Anonymous)
2008-05-27 12:05 am UTC (link)
Russia (for all practical purposes) got enough votes from the east this year to win with virtually no western votes. Actually they would have needed only fifteen votes from seventeen western countries to win (enough Russian diaspora to get that), and they got fifty-six (including the juries).

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Re: Europe nation (opinion from East)
(Anonymous)
2008-05-29 04:14 am UTC (link)
I like the system, but agree that two main problems - the fact that the final voting does not reflect actual voting and the need to outdo oneself - are real problems. Perhaps the way to go is to only partially discount votes according to past patterns rather than completely "clean" them?

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Re: Europe nation (opinion from East)
[info]nick_at_esc
2008-05-29 10:40 am UTC (link)
On further reflection, I think "the need to outdo yourself" is a fixable flaw. Here's a slightly amended mechanism:

A = the TS from the single country we're considering;
B = the TS if ALL other voting countries were taken as a single huge entity.

A minus B then provides a measure of how much each country-pair deviates from the overall norm, irrespective of how high or low that norm would actually be - and that can be used to smooth out the natural pro/anti tendencies.

The fact that the final voting does not reflect actual voting is still a problem. But then, the fact that the final voting presently *does* reflect actual voting is the problem that we're trying to fix. :-) It's a dilemma!

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(Anonymous)
2008-05-27 07:46 pm UTC (link)
I have another idea.

Now the points are given 1-7 and then 8-10-12.
I think it is a good idea that the 3 highest points are given by the jury of the country. The rest of the points (1-7) by televotes.
This way, the viewers are also involved and it is insured that the important points are given at quality-songs.

Example:

Results of televoting:
10% Armenia
8% Turkey
7% Greece

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(Anonymous)
2008-05-27 08:01 pm UTC (link)
I have another idea.

Now the points are given 1-7 and then 8-10-12.
I think it is a good idea that the 3 highest points are given by the jury of the country. The rest of the points (1-7) by televotes.
This way, the viewers are also involved and it is insured that the important points are given at quality-songs.

Example:

Results of televoting (the 10 highest scores):
22% Armenia
17% Turkey
13% Greece
11% Serbia
9% Sweden
7% Norway
6% Portugal
5% Israël
3% France
2% Iceland

The jury thought that Israel, Serbia and Turkey were the best.

Then the points would be:

12 pts : Israel
10 pts : Serbia
8 pts: Turkey

7 pts: Armenia
6 pts: Greece
5 pts: Sweden
4 pts: Norway
3 pts: Portugal
2 pts: France
1 pt: Iceland

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(Anonymous)
2008-05-27 09:24 pm UTC (link)
Actually, this is a great idea, but it should be the other way out: 1-7 points by jury, 8 to 12 by televoters. Thus, people voting will still be able to choose the winner, while jury will support some good entries like Portugal this year, and they'll make it in Top 10 at least.

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(Anonymous)
2008-05-28 04:30 pm UTC (link)
No I think it is better that the 12 -10 -8 points are given by the jury. These are the most important points and this way it would be less obvious to guess those points. It would be more fascinating to watch.
The rest 1-7 can be given by televoting to attrack the public to this event en so the profit of televoting would stay.

Grtz.

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(Anonymous)
2008-06-01 06:22 pm UTC (link)
What the F**K is all that about!!!

Simple: 50% Televoting 50% Professional Jury

END OF

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[info]nick_at_esc
2008-06-01 07:23 pm UTC (link)
Good lord, I had no idea that people still believe that the words "END OF" are all it takes to successfully win an argument!

I accept that my proposal is complicated to understand, and that itself probably makes it unacceptable to implement. I don't accept that it deserved a "What the fuck is that all about?", nor that your own pet plan is the one that will solve all the problems. It won't, as will become very apparent later this year when JESC tries it out.

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well
[info]oneurope
2008-06-01 08:16 pm UTC (link)
I dont think it will be END OF...

I also dont think 50-50 is going to work all that well - but it is an option.

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[info]nick_at_esc
2008-09-17 04:24 pm UTC (link)
Rereading four months later, I don't understand even a single word of that!

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