Non-Fluffy Pagans

Looking for a Regardie quote...

2008-09-30T21:07:32Z

Somewhere or another, Israel Regardie said something along the lines of, "If you're studying magick, you should also be in analysis." Anybody know where this might be in his writings? I'm looking in my books, but who knows, one of you might already have a citation...

Dion Fortune/Violet M. Firth research

2008-09-19T18:03:30Z

My brain desires to write a scholarly paper on Dion Fortune for some unknown reason, and I'm obliging. Damn brain. Besides the Weiser-published books, are the Society of the Inner Light books reliable in terms of original text? I read that they might be altered to fit a more Christian viewpoint. I have nearly all of the books published under "Dion Fortune" and two under her real name, Violet M. Firth. In terms of outside sources, what should I look into? Golden Dawn is my thinking, but there is so much there. Assistance is appreciated, and if you want to share your view of the old lady, feel free to. :)

Ithaca found?

2008-09-10T15:53:41Z

FYI.

Odyssey's End?: The Search for Ancient Ithaca
"A British researcher believes he has at last pinpointed the island to which Homer's wanderer returned and a new wealth of data supports his thesis."

Offferings

2008-09-02T13:58:04Z

I like to make offerings to my gods and as autumn draws ever closer, I am thinking of the offerings to make of the early season. I would like, I think, to offer some milk and bread stuffs. However, I usually leave my offers out of doors, near to where I often go to pray, and I hesitate to leave foodstuffs out of doors (or to make a habit of it). I do not want to be a part of making the wildlife dependent upon human foods or familiar enough with the smells of human foods that they then come seeking more human food.

What do you do for offerings?

Can you give me any advice?

Hitting a wall with research of the book variety

2008-08-24T15:07:34Z

Hello to everyone here,

First, can I assure everyone that this is not a plea for you to do my homework for me, I am not writing a college paper or planning to publish.

Ah, now that's over with I can get on with asking my question.

I have been trying to research 2 deities of the Egyptian Pantheon - so far I hove nothing but conflicting information and a few words in passing in half a dozen books. I am hoping that some of the the members of this comm might be able to point me in the direction of some more academic writing on Mafdet and Wepwawet.

I have worked with both deities on a personal level for some time, but am looking for academic validation to some of the things I have discovered during meditation.

Many thanks in advance to anyone who has the time to point me in a direction other than that of google.

Being Pagan and single.

2008-08-24T03:55:49Z

Hi folks,

I read the article over on The Wild Hunt blog about Buffy the Vampire-Slayer inspiring UK women to leave the church and turn to Wicca.

In the list of reasons why women aren't going to church in the University of Derby press release on this, I noted that under the heading "Family Diversity", the article notes that "singleness" is a growing trend. I've heard this before, not just as a social trend but also one creating an economic impact. Apparently where single women are concerned, it's even become a special focus of research for marketing purposes.

Now, I had never thought of "singleness" as a reason to leave (or join) a religion, and personally I am quite enjoying my singleness at this time in my life. I thought certainly that there must be some group celebrating the single life out there, so I googled it, and I was surprised to find that a search for "celebrating singleness" spat out nearly an entire page worth of Christian sites, books, and programs for helping supposedly forlorn singles feel like God has a plan for them... in the church.

I don't think singleness or lack thereof has ever been an issue one way or another in any of the Pagan groups I've been involved with. Perhaps the presence of diverse single/married/etc. role models (in the forms of Gods, Heroes, and even among fellow community members) "normalizes" these various social roles within our communities. Plus I think that the Pagan emphasis on personal empowerment and choice goes a long way towards affirming the dignity and importance of individual people regardless of their marital or relationship status.

Has anybody else noticed anything along these lines?

oaths

2008-08-21T11:56:57Z

Inspired by a discussion elsewhere, I'm wondering what you think about oaths.

Ideally, oaths should be freely taken, without manipulation or coercion of any kind, with considerable thought and trepidation, by adults. But what about oaths that aren't made under ideal circumstances? Alter any part of that "ideal" equation, how does it change your view of the oath? Also, do you consider less-than-ideal oaths to be both non-binding and meaningless, or do they still impart some degree of meaning whether you intend them to or not?

Do you take some kind of particular action to void oaths you can no longer fulfill? And does that depend on the reason for not being able to fulfill the oath-- for instance, if the oath was expected behavior and you were a minor at the time?

One bit of personal significance for me with this subject is that I took an oath several years ago as a member of a high-demand religious group. I've since broken free of the group and left the religion/no longer worship the deity I oathed to, but feel very uncomfortable about the broken oath-- I would have told you that it was taken freely at the time, (but I also would have told you at the time that I wasn't in a cult), but I don't feel that way about it now. If you've any advice for me, I'd welcome it.

Question about Gratitude Ritual

2008-07-23T14:40:39Z

I am curious to know what kind of gratitude ritual includes graveyards and stabbing swords into the ~~foot~~ ground. This is a serious inquiry, even though I feel slightly snarky about it. I'm wondering if the witch in question wasn't telling a story to the police (I'm also really curious as to which deities were being called that required the inadvertent blood sacrifice).

Going back in the broom closet.

2008-07-23T14:40:11Z

This is sort of linked to the forum flame post from yesterday. On a forum I used to belong to someone has posted about a couple they know in Canada (the forum is UK based) who are still in the broom closet due to unsympathetic neighbours, and there is a chance they will be emigrating to the UK and wanted to know what the religious climate is like over here. This, of course, has mutated into a thread about why pagans are still iffy about coming out, and why they should. Two quotes caught my eye:

So as long as we keep being allowed to be portrayed as tree hugging, black cape wearing, child sacrificing, dancing around a fire naked Pagans that is the way the public will see us.

(I personally am a tree hugger, so see no reason why I shouldn't be portrayed as such. But I see his point - there are still clichés).

He is answered thus:

That's not how the public does see pagans now, though. They mostly see them as overbearing attention seekers with an overdeveloped persecution complex who ponce about in velvet with dustbin-lid sized pentagrams on display, demanding special rights because they think they're somehow entitled to them on account of the burning times.

I don't know why anyone would bother being 'out' these days. There have been so many 'out' media whores and attention seekers, and the pagan scene is such a shambles, that it's actually kind of embarrassing to be associated with it now.

Yes, there is a bit of sour grapes here from the respondent as this forum has been going through a rough patch recently, some of which couldn't be helped, and some which is richly deserved. Also, in the UK there are groups of pagans that seem to spend all their time getting their mugs into the tabloids, without actually finding out of they are speaking for the rest of us.

However, is the second quote correct? Is it getting to the point that the behaviour of pagans both online and off is making you want to go back into the broom closet and firmly lock the door? Or is this a passing phase, and the various paths will come out stronger and surer, having disposed of those who didn't have the conviction to stick with it on the way?

so flame wars

2008-07-20T12:56:20Z

i had an interesting questions asked of me today, namely why pagan message boards flare up into monumental name calling, bitch slapping, flame wars?

so why do you think message boards, online communities and email lists of the pagan variety sometimes devolve into flame war? (especially considering paganism in general prides itself on tolerance.)

any takers?

(also mods if you think that this question is to likely to create an actually flame war please feel free to delete)

R J Stewart

2008-07-18T12:51:44Z

Does anyone have an opinion on him? Good, Bad, Why?

A question of writing it?

2008-07-17T02:39:13Z

Recently a friend and I were discussing how to write the experiences we have that which fall into the category of personal gnosis or experiences in which we see, hear, know of, etc a divine being of a specific mythology. We discussed mainly how these experiences are hard to write as often you can come across as at worst being totally fluffy and at best a good fantasy writer. So how can we, as a community better express this rather hard to discuss topic, especially with such diversity in our community?

Attn Druid Veterans

2008-07-03T19:06:09Z

The following is from Ellen Evert Hopman:

An Urgent Plea Concerning Druid Veterans and Their Families and Friends.
Please Read and Pass This Along!

Dear all:

To date I have not received any new letters from vets stating their desire to have the 'Awen' symbol on their headstones, nor any copies of letters to next of kin or clergy stating the same. It will be very hard to proceed with this cause as a religious freedom issue unless we can show that there are Druid vets out there who want the symbol.

The campaign is at a critical point once again and we really need those letters. Can you please alert your members?

Thank you in advance and here is my address again; POB 219 Amherst, MA 01004 EE Hopman

Please see message from Selana Fox below;

Greetings, All,

This is follow-up to some individual and group discussions I have had with some of you previously, and most recently, Ellen.

It is a good idea to get letters from Druid vets and Druids on active duty in the US military who state that they have the Awen symbol as their emblem of belief and that they want it added to the Va's list of emblems of belief that can be included on gravestones it issues for deceased veterans.

Their letters should state that after death, they would like the Awen included on their VA-issued grave marker which will be ordered by next of kin.

It also is a good idea to have the next of kin of each of these veterans informed about the veteran's wishes regarding the Awen being included on gravestones to be ordered after the veteran's death from the VA. Something in writing from the veteran/soldier to her/his next of kin could be very helpful.

I met by phone this week with staff from the US Department of Veterans Affairs to get another update on the progress of the revision of the new procedures for adding additional emblems of belief to the Va's authorized list. This bureaucratic process is still in the works. During this call, no one could estimate as to how soon the process would be completed. I did lean that the process was continuing to move, although slowly. We plan to continue to track this.

Although the Va's new procedures have not been released yet and supposedly have gone through quite a few changes as a result of the revision process that was begun in January 2007,several VA staff I spoke with over the past year indicated to me that, as with the previous set of procedures, that a symbol will be eligible to be on the list after a veteran or one on active duty dies and had wanted a symbol on her/his marker and the next of kin knows of this and makes that request of the VA as part of the gravestone/marker/plaque application process.

During our settlement of the Circle Sanctuary vs. Nicholson lawsuit in April 2007 which resulted in the Pentacle being added to the list, I made certain that our attorneys (from Americans United for Separation of Church and State) included a clause in the settlement agreement that allowed me and Circle Sanctuary to work on behalf of other emblems of belief being added to the list. When asked about the reason for this clause by media at the national press club news conference on April 23,2007, the day the Pentacle was added to the list, I specifically mentioned the need for the Druid symbol to be added.

Should any of you know of a Druid vet or Druid on active duty who dies and has requested the Awen to be on a VA headstone and the next of kin is planning to order a marker from the VA, please contact Circle Sanctuary as soon as possible so we can be available to help as needed.

Contact:
Lady Liberty League
Circle Sanctuary
liberty@circlesanct

CL Gifford's faux pas on the "Today Show"

2008-06-30T03:40:00Z

Am I being a thick-skinned lout because I don't feel like rushing to sign the online petition or write to NBC Denouncing Gifford and demanding that she apologize to the Entire Pagan Community (whoever THAT is supposed to be) for the remark she made in this clip? The offending remark happens at approximately 4:27.

first, it seems the Pagan reference was to "ancient" Pagans. Second, her "dirty nasty Pagan" comment, IMO, was more to let the guy know that the answer was NOT "C" -- she was giving a "hint" to the contestant. That's what it seemed like from where I sit. Am I being naive in thinking no harm to any living people was meant? Do we need to start a media campaign against NBC or are some people in the "Pagan Community" blowing this out of proportion?

(I also don't think online petitions are an effective means of political action. If action is warranted, a real letter on paper sent to the network, show's producers, and the sponsor would be more effective (and more costly, to be sure). And probably press releases about the protest and boycott (which is also being touted on some e-lists) is also advised, otherwise the sponsor won't realize we're boycotting them.

EDIT/UPDATE: apparently CLG "apologized" on the air - not a specific thing but a generic "Mea Culpa" that shows up on this clip, at time marker (appx) 2:51. And I almost didn't make it through the clip to the "apology".

syncretism in action!

2008-06-28T15:56:06Z

The linked article that follows raised a number of interesting questions for me, particularly with the sometimes-rabid anti-syncretic, hard polytheist discourse of intelligent contemporary paganism - a perhaps understandable stance in light of some of the more wildly appropriative forms of neopaganism. Particularly interesting is the contrast between clergy and people here, with the dismissal of heterodox religious practice by clergy and the popular reaction.

From today's Guardian:

Sisters and goddesses
Legend has it that it was the apostle, Thomas, the doubting one, who brought Christianity to Southern India - and now, aside from the odd jealous spat, the Virgin Mary and goddess Bhagavati are worshipped with equal fervour.

"But, for sisters, don't they look rather different from each other?" I asked. A calendar image of the goddess, pinned up behind him, showed Bhagavati as a wizened hag wreathed in skulls and crowned with an umbrella of cobra hoods. In her hand she wielded a giant sickle.

"Sisters are often a little different from each other," he replied. "Mary is another form of the Devi. They have equal power." He paused: "At our annual festival the priests take the goddess around the village on top of an elephant to receive sacrifices from the people. She visits all the places, and one stop is the church. There she sees her sister.""

http://www.guardian.co.uk/travel/2008/jun/28/india

Mixing Pantheons

2008-06-27T02:36:37Z

No, I'm not planning a ritual in which I call on Odin and Kali as the Lord and Lady. That's just silly.

But I am having some deity trouble. Some background:

I am an eclectic Pagan. Have been practicing for nearly 12 years. What I do is very low-brow magic and ritual. Kitchen witchery stuff and celebrations of Sabbats with an emphasis on their agricultural roots. I am more likely to read a book on anthropology before writing a ritual than a book on Wiccan magickal correspondences. I have never had a specific patron Deity, I call on the faceless Lord and Lady.

Recently, I have been "pestered" by a few deities. My first reaction was that I was either dreaming or hallucinating, but then they became insistent. First was Hecate, telling me that I needed to choose a patron and that it should be her. She had all sorts of good reasons, but there were a lot of strings attached, such as daily meditation and more focused ritual work, neither of which I have much time for.

Then, I was approached by Bast and Anubis together, with Bast doing most of the speaking. They also informed me that I needed to choose some patron deities, and that it didn't really matter who I chose, but they wanted me to know that there were there if I needed them.

I recently became pregnant, and initially Hecate made a few comments about how I needed to thank her for it. Instead, I set up an altar to Bast and left her offerings of sandalwood, milk, and catnip (I have absolutely no idea what offerings should be left to an Egyptian Goddess... my own felines helped in the decision). It wasn't meant out of any disrespect to Hecate, I just felt that Bast was more influential in these matters.

Since then, Bast is the only one talking to me. The problem I have is that I don't want to follow any Egyptian-flavored version of Paganism. I like what my religion has evolved into for me. Following an 8-Sabbat Wheel of the Year works well in my Upper Midwest home. Plus, it appeals to my heritage: a long line of English, Scottish, and Irish farmers. My cousins and I are actually the first generation of my family not to spend any part of our childhood on a farm. Most of us did grow up in farm country, though.

So, I think my question is: Does anyone else have patron Deities of a pantheon that does not coincide with your day-to-day spiritual path? And how do you make it work without coming off as a fluffy "pick-and-choose" freak? And does anyone know what a really good offering would be to Bast, because I think my cats just want me to put milk and catnip in a place where they have easy access. :-)

Rune mats

2008-06-27T02:35:43Z

Anyone who casts runes using a mat - I'm curious about what structure your design follows. I have two ideas on designing a rune mat at the moment, but some other examples and influence would be great. At present, it's a friend's design based on one by Kenneth Meadows, or one I knocked up based on the cross spread design in my rune book.
Don't suppose anyone knows how it might have been designed in the past? If not, what does your rune mat look like, and why?

IM IN UR RELIGOINZ, WALKEN YR TALK

2008-06-02T19:44:30Z

While some may find the very nature of LOLCats annoying, there are some of us who it entertains the heck out of. One of these people is elisem, who wrote the LOLCat Rede (which made it to Memphis for an April Fool's Ritual). She has now turned her attention to the Nine Noble Virtues. I will place a cut for those not interested, and to save your friends page.

The Odinic Rite lists the 9 Noble Virtues as Courage, Truth, Honor,
Fidelity, Discipline, Hospitality, Industriousness, Self-Reliance, and
Perseverance.

Courage

Dogz may bark, n flash feerful fang
but honor-stiffnd Kitteh standz firm.

Truth

Knowing Kitteh knowz. Knowz self,
knowz trooth, an clingz with claws of WANT.

Honor

Catnip mousies rip, an nomnomnoms evenshully come 2 bottm of bag
But I knowz wun thing wut never runz out:
the name-fame wut comez when honrable cat is honrable.

Fidelity

CAN HAS, sez Kitteh. But Kitteh must keep:
Keep word, keep faith, keep clawz sharp.

Discipline

Mai strong will. Let me show u it.
I honez it regyoolurly on the bonez of temptashun.

Hospitality

Sharing cat is sharing, strong in guest-frendship.
If I had 2 catnip mousies, I wud give u wun.

Industriousness

I see wut you did there. Ur latchez n doorz, I skoff at them.
I'm in ur precaushuns. An I has ALL DAY.

Self Reliance

I has a flavor. Mai flavor iz bein able 2 depend on mahself.
SPACE AND TIME ARE NO OBSTACLE TO CATTANK. CATTANK IS STRONG.

Perseverance

Oh hai, I upgraded ur everything. Or I will.
Just give me time. Perseverance. I has it.

The Nine Noble LOLvirtues is copyright Elise Matthesen 2008; please do not reprint or repost without written permission. Permission can be gotten pretty easily by sending e-mail to elise@lioness.net. (I almost always say yes, but I love to find out how far it's spreading, and the permissions thing is good as a device to satisfy my curiosity on that.) Thank you. (And if you do reprint or repost without asking me, please please please include this paragraph so that my name and contact info go along with it so that the next person can ask, and I can find out how far it goes. If you see it out there anywhere uncredited, please tack this paragraph on. My catly curiosity thanks you.)

Now I am waiting for the AteFold Pathz to be done.

And my utmost apologies to anyone offended by the humor contained above. No. Srsly. So sorry. Fer realz.

Original source for expression of an idea?

2008-05-31T11:50:52Z

On another community I recently expressed a thought to the effect that: "one year of experience, repeated over and over twenty times, is not the same as having had twenty years of experience." This is almost certainly a paraphrase of the original way this was expressed.

I know that that expression is not original with me. With all of the fine, knowledgable people here, surely someone here has run across this before and can tell me the original source.

Tradition bashing

2008-05-30T18:06:58Z

Inspired by dramah in a locked post in another community . . .

Is it ever okay to bash someone's spiritual tradition or private personal practise if the person is just quietly going about doing what they do and not in anyone's face about it? When is it (ever) justified to tell someone that they're doing it wrong?

I'm not talking about people making outrageous claims or doing anything illegal or unethical--just people quietly going about their devotional and spiritual life.

ETA: the original dramah had nothing to do with any definition of the word Wicca. :)

Whoops

2008-05-23T00:23:53Z

Ok so I missed our 5th birthday.

So, go us!

We never have hit the 2k mark in membership, and this saddens me. Then I remember who was supposed to join and can name them all by name, and I am still amazed and amused by the whole thing.

The list will always start with 7leaguebootdisk and end with our darling zothe, no matter how large the list gets.

That's all. Just realizing we have been around longer than some, not as long as others. The conversations over the last couple days have tickled and pleased me all over again.

I think it is time to go on a tagging spree again. 5 years worth of posts, we should have SOME kind of order...

Also, we are coming up on the anniversary of the swisscelt modding as it happened when mycorethoughts, simianlovedoc and I all went on vacation. Which we are about to do again!

Tarot Reading to Kids?

2008-05-22T23:42:34Z

My 12-year-old brother came across my Tarot deck and asked for a reading. Though our Catholic mother wouldn't let me do it for him, it got me wondering how I would even go about it. All I know is the Celtic Cross spread (only in the last year have I really gotten the hang of my Rider-Waite deck), and I would think it'd be too complicated for him to understand. He's a smart kid and all, but do you think it would go over his head? If our mom becomes more comfortable with the idea, how would you suggest I explain it to him? He's not particularly invested in Catholicism (and I don't see how Tarot contradicts it), though we go to mass every week, and and he goes to Sunday school. But he's been posing the Big Questions, like how we know God exists, if Creationism is true, etc. He even asked me if the pagan gods exist. Aww, I may already be corrupting him. ;)

Really f#!@ing weird.

2008-05-20T15:43:42Z

For the past couple of weeks, there has been a figure just on the periphery of my dreams and it's weirding me out a bit. The dreams I'm having have nothing to do with him, he's just there. He is a black man in some kind of breechclout. He's tall, very bony and he is invariably doing a handstand on a drain grate. He never looks directly at me, but he is aware of me being there. There is also the impression of some sort of colorful bag associated with him.

Yeah, I don't get it.

Now to the really oddball part.

Two nights ago, I used lucid dreaming technique to say hello. He looked right at me, then without breaking his handstand, he bent his leg and tapped my right shoulder twice with his toe.

Yeah, really do not get it, but now I have a brainworm about it. I've been googling, but come up with nothing - though that might be more because I haven't got an inkling of where to start.

Can anyone give me a clue?

Gods of Many Hats?

2008-05-20T15:06:32Z

A particular thread on "the devil you know" v. "the devil who gets the job done" from an earlier post got me wondering:

As a matter of personal preference, would you rather stretch the attributes of one of your patron deities to help you with a particular problem, or would you rather go searching through the proverbial Deity Yellow Pages to find a specialist?

Sub-questions: Would you rather wait for Hogswatchnight to create Bilious the Oh God of Hangovers, Jeff the God of Biscuits, and Aqanuksiauq the God of Regretting You Poked the Hive of the Angry Bees, or would you rather practice Conservation of Belief* and generalize under the attributes of an existing deity who may not be your patron? Does specialist-hunting contribute significantly to eclectic paganism, or has it more frequently a broader, more intuitive motivation?

* ...by which I mean refraining from creating smaller, specialist gods, and instead going to those with a more diversified portfolio, saving belief for those who already exist and thus already have a certain gravitas. Some people like to personalize, though.

nonfluffypagans @ 2008-05-20T08:26:00

2008-05-20T12:55:50Z

I don't often do begging posts, but 'shamanism' is in the comm interests and I figure the non-fluffy community are the only ones worth talking to at this point...

I'm looking for an online group about academic studies of shamanism. Something like The International Society for Shamanistic Research, and their "Shaman" periodical, or an equivalent of cr_r for global shamanism. Basically, somewhere which talks about real authentic practices with a distinctly non-fluffy approach, can actually cite texts or research, and won't start quoting D J Conway at me.

I looked online. I went to the LJ's and yahoogroups and all the rest, and quickly DROWNED IN THE HORRIFYING TIDE OF FLUFFY that seems to be any community with the word "shaman" in it. I'm not asking for academic excellence or elitism, I just want somewhere that posts about more than people's own UPG from neo-shamanism.

Anyone know of any suitable groups or websites?

---------

Edit: I don't want to *become* a "shaman". I want to mix with people who can talk about the various traditions in an academically truthful way.