Avallonia ([info]avallonia) wrote in [info]nonfluffypagans,
@ 2005-07-04 17:16:00
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Current mood: thoughtful
Entry tags:cultural "borrowing"

On Cultural Appropriation...
I am probably insane to wade in here, but based upon the previous few threads, I think we need to recognize one thing about culture -- culture is NOT genetic.

Culture is defined as "the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group" (Merriam-Webster). These are all things which can be studied and LEARNED by people raised outside of a culture, albeit with the knowledge that it is only through an immersion into that culture can they come to have any degree of true understanding of it. Cultural appropriation happens when you adapt a cultural form without proper context, NOT when one has chosen (or felt chosen) to study a culture other than the one to which they are born. I believe that individual Gods manifest as culture-specific reflections of the Divine. As such, they are tied to specific human cultures, not particular human genomes.

This is an important distinction. As someone who has spent the better part of 20 years studying Celtic British archaeology, mythology, history, art, music, material culture and language --and who happens to be a first generation American of Italian descent -- I feel I have come to be more of a cultural Celt than someone whose distant ancestor hailed from "somewhere in Ireland" and thinks that fact alone makes them a Celt.

Ive built a relationship with the Deities I work with over the course of many years, and the deeper my understanding of Their cultural context, the more accessible Ive found Their energies to be. I believe this cultural context is a critical component in understanding, accessing, and HONORING any Deities with whom a modern Pagan chooses to work. There is also a sense of responsibility to honor and support those peoples who ARE a part of the specific living cultures from which we draw religious inspiration -- that includes Native and Indigenous peoples all over the world, including, in my case, the Cymry of the British Isles.

I would never conceive of calling upon a Deity with whom I have not built a relationship, or for whom I have not engaged in serious study beforehand to learn the most appropriate way to honor Them. While I believe intention is important, and that the ideal is not always attainable, I would never ask the Divine to conform to my needs and expectation -- I believe we need, at the very least, to make an effort and tailor our work to reflect Deity, not the other way around. This is why I shudder at the "Deity of The Month" club with their "Fill In the Blank" rituals. To me, THIS is cultural appropriation.




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[info]tarr
2005-07-04 10:09 pm UTC (link)
You make an excellent point. And on the flip side, having a genetic heritage doesn't mean the culture is yours either. Claiming an Native American ancestor doesn't make you a medicine man. I always love it when people say "but my great great grandmother was a Cherokee princess!"

It's all about intent, education, and respect.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]avallonia
2005-07-04 10:21 pm UTC (link)
Agreed!

And on the flip side, having a genetic heritage doesn't mean the culture is yours either.

Ditto this... I make that point above as well.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]tarr, 2005-07-04 10:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]avallonia, 2005-07-04 10:30 pm UTC

[info]dinpik
2005-07-05 02:51 am UTC (link)
I always love it when people say "but my great great grandmother was a Cherokee princess!"

Snerk. It may be utter bullshit, but I was told by an anthropolgy teacher that "Cherokee princess" was old slang for "prostitute".

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]tarr, 2005-07-05 03:18 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]wibbble, 2005-07-05 03:47 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]tarr, 2005-07-05 03:58 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]wibbble, 2005-07-05 04:03 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]tarr, 2005-07-05 04:09 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]wibbble, 2005-07-05 04:14 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]tarr, 2005-07-05 04:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]wibbble, 2005-07-05 04:53 am UTC

[info]doobieous
2005-07-05 04:36 pm UTC (link)
There's always this debate about cultural strip mining among the tattoo communities. The argument is usually centered around Chinese writing, and most people will say "you shouldn't get one unless you're of that culture!" (oddly, it never extends into Polynesian or Bornean tattoos, which get taken all the time).

Unfortunately, an American who is pure Chinese heritage, but neither speaks nor reads a lick of Chinese is not going to be any most knowledgeable about a given Chinese character than another. So, I agree, just because a culture is your heritage, doesn't mean you know or have that culture.

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(no subject) - [info]labelleizzy, 2005-07-05 07:05 pm UTC
*slow nod*
[info]foxesdaughter
2005-07-04 10:10 pm UTC (link)
You are making sense, mostly ... a great deal of sense (quit that!)

Although (ouch, this is gonna hurt), many Wiccan traditions have "fill in the blank" rituals when they are using archetypes (mother, for example, could be ... I dunno ... Demeter or say, Isis).

Archetypes and cross-pantheon roles have kinda been forgotten in this debate, so I thought I'd throw it out there.

But don't look at me, I'm Asatru.

*backs away slllooooowly*

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: *slow nod*
[info]avallonia
2005-07-04 10:28 pm UTC (link)
Personally, while I recognize the power of archetypes, I choose to work with Deity from a cultural perspective. So, if I wanted to work with -- for example -- Great Mother energy, I would access this energy as it manifests within my Pantheon, rather than calling upon 80 Divinities from 30 cultures that hold that same archetypal energy.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Excellent, well said, and thank you!
[info]edwarddain
2005-07-04 10:19 pm UTC (link)
I believe that individual Gods manifest as cultural specific reflections of the Divine. As such, they are tied to specific human cultures, not particular human genomes.

I think that we do have to add in one more layer - the individual. We all interact with culture through our individual lens, and the Divine can take on somewhat different faces depending upon our own experiences and our interpretations of our lives.

Think of all the different ways, for example, even practicing Catholics view the nature of Jesus. Part of this culture and part of this is family and part of this is just individual faith and experience.

Anyways, an excellent post.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Excellent, well said, and thank you!
[info]avallonia
2005-07-04 10:31 pm UTC (link)
We all interact with culture through our individual lens, and the Divine can take on somewhat different faces depending upon our own experiences and our interpretations of our lives.

Excellent point, and very much agreed.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]silent_sybil
2005-07-04 10:21 pm UTC (link)
Thank you. That's probably the most sensible thing I've seen on this community all day.

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[info]avallonia
2005-07-04 10:35 pm UTC (link)
Much appreciated :). I was a bit worried that I was throwing myself to the dogs :).

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(no subject) - [info]othertruths, 2005-07-05 03:14 am UTC

[info]rottnpagan
2005-07-04 10:45 pm UTC (link)
I agree!!!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]tatjna, 2005-07-07 05:39 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]rottnpagan, 2005-07-07 01:58 pm UTC

[info]fraterdraconis
2005-07-04 11:19 pm UTC (link)
I'll second that

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]ashley_y
2005-07-04 10:40 pm UTC (link)
My own view is that genetics is at most one small marker of culture. Anyone who has spent enough time in, say, Wales, to have picked up the culture can call themselves Welsh at least to some degree.

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[info]rottnpagan
2005-07-04 10:48 pm UTC (link)
I've met some people (non-native, and I use this because this is something I know) who have the utmost respect and really want in their hearts to learn to walk the 'red path'. And I've met some natives who could give a rat's ass about their heritage/culture/ancestors/whathaveyou.

It's all about intent.

Wonderfully written.

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Strikes a chord it does
[info]winterlion
2005-07-04 10:49 pm UTC (link)
This is it exactly.

And this is why when I discovered Asatru I found the culture to be the very same one I'd grown up in - old Dutch family that had kept it's family culture and connections with Denmark and Sweden as well as a set of family values that are VERY similar.

It was a homecoming... (minus the Christianity - which while an interesting faith not one I understood or had much connection with...)

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[info]caoimhghin
2005-07-04 11:19 pm UTC (link)
Well said!

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[info]arcanefairy
2005-07-04 11:27 pm UTC (link)
I could barely read your post. Actually I didn't read it, as after your defintion on Culture my programming kicked in.

You can't define culture. Culture is everything it is, and everything it's not. Culture is user defined. People could be of the same culture and yet do two completely different views on it. Culture is all relative. When looking back on previous cultures we cannot truely understand it as we do not have all their cultural reference points. And our view of "their/others" culture is skewed by our own biases. /end cultural studies majors ranting before she starts really going off and writing a essay on it

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[info]rimrunner
2005-07-04 11:41 pm UTC (link)
It sounds to me like you're talking about people's views on a particular culture, rather than a definition of culture itself. If that's not the case, could you clarify?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]arcanefairy, 2005-07-04 11:50 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]arcanefairy, 2005-07-04 11:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rimrunner, 2005-07-04 11:55 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]arcanefairy, 2005-07-04 11:59 pm UTC

[info]wibbble
2005-07-05 01:47 am UTC (link)
I still find all of these things very strange.

You're not Celtic. You're /American/.

Why do Americans have to always look far away and long ago for their spirituality?

The debates about 'cultural appropriation' are weirdly and uniquely American. I'm sure it's all very telling about something or other.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

my long-winded two cents
[info]ruggrat
2005-07-05 01:55 am UTC (link)
We're a young culture, and at least to pretty much any nature based religion I can think of, it's a pretty distasteful nasty sort of culture based on using up more than you need because you have the means, while other who don't must make do with less than the basic necessities of life all around us.
We like to think we have no culture, that we are homeless orphans, who stole the land brutally from the indigenous people, so we reach out to nicely organised pantheons. Or mix and match from others. But the American God is money, best worshipped through rituals of waste and pride. ::shrugg:: We want to feel like there is something out there that others have known about since ancient times, and we can discover it now, and take it into our lives. Most Americans are slightly this and slightly that, and many can't trace a family tree. We have no beliefs from the old country, and we have no beliefs based in the new country.

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Re: my long-winded two cents - [info]wibbble, 2005-07-05 02:05 am UTC
Re: my long-winded two cents - [info]edwarddain, 2005-07-05 04:37 am UTC
Re: my long-winded two cents - [info]wibbble, 2005-07-05 04:50 am UTC
Re: my long-winded two cents - [info]edwarddain, 2005-07-05 03:51 pm UTC
Re: my long-winded two cents - [info]wibbble, 2005-07-05 07:58 pm UTC
Re: my long-winded two cents - [info]freakyferret, 2005-07-05 06:11 am UTC
Re: my long-winded two cents - [info]drgndancer, 2005-07-05 06:54 am UTC
Re: my long-winded two cents - [info]wibbble, 2005-07-05 07:45 pm UTC
Re: my long-winded two cents - [info]sahtyinepu, 2005-07-05 07:08 am UTC

[info]ashley_y
2005-07-05 07:07 am UTC (link)
As someone from England who moved to America, one of the odd things I occasionally come across is people who were born in America and lived all their lives here, but nevertheless claim to be Irish or whatever (and not just the more understandable "Irish-American").

It is, indeed, very strange.

Mind you, IIRC "Celticism" has some weird hold over the English too. People will tell you Glastonbury is "Celtic", even though the only ancient settlement known there was Anglo-Saxon (thank you Ronald Hutton). I've even heard of Tolkien described as "Celtic mythology"...

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(no subject) - [info]shadowboxspectr, 2005-07-05 05:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]wibbble, 2005-07-05 07:46 pm UTC

[info]bukyou
2005-07-05 01:33 pm UTC (link)
Yeah. You know the other day I was having dinner with my fiancee, her brother and his wife. The brother and wife were talking about how they'd made French and Irish flags for their son, to reflect his nationality. They laughed, and said they'd left out Scottish, English and Canadian from his mother's side, as that would be too many flags.

I said, "I'd only need one flag. My nationality is American."

To which the brother responded with a condescending chuckle and said, "that's so cutely naive."

?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]doobieous, 2005-07-05 04:52 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bukyou, 2005-07-06 03:37 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]wibbble, 2005-07-05 07:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bukyou, 2005-07-06 03:38 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]wibbble, 2005-07-06 03:42 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]arcanefairy, 2005-07-05 02:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tiferet, 2005-07-05 10:08 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]wibbble, 2005-07-05 10:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tryst_inn, 2005-07-05 10:40 pm UTC
Question
[info]tatjna
2005-07-05 05:39 am UTC (link)
If a Maori sat on a rock 500 years ago and talked with the spirits of the land, then I came along 500 years later and sat on the same rock and talked with the same spirits, does that make my experience any less spiritual or valid?

I suspect that deities, if they exist, don't give a rat's arse where you were born, as long as you respect and listen to them.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Question
[info]ashley_y
2005-07-05 07:09 am UTC (link)
How do you know if you're talking to the same spirits? Perhaps they are especially Maori spirits. If they have Maori names, that's probably a clue.

On the other hand, the land is the same, so who knows?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Question - [info]tatjna, 2005-07-05 08:26 pm UTC
Re: Question - [info]sister_ananke, 2005-07-05 09:58 am UTC
Re: Question - [info]attrice, 2005-07-05 05:07 pm UTC
Re: Question - [info]lilithcoyote, 2005-07-05 06:32 pm UTC
Re: Question - [info]wibbble, 2005-07-05 08:22 pm UTC
Re: Question - [info]tatjna, 2005-07-05 08:47 pm UTC
Re: Question - [info]lilithcoyote, 2005-07-05 06:35 pm UTC
Re: Question - [info]tatjna, 2005-07-05 08:53 pm UTC
Re: Question - [info]chaos_rose, 2005-07-05 10:46 pm UTC
Re: Question - [info]lilithcoyote, 2005-07-06 01:01 am UTC
Re: Question - [info]chaos_rose, 2005-07-06 02:49 am UTC
Re: Question - [info]labelleizzy, 2005-07-05 07:25 pm UTC
Re: Question - [info]tatjna, 2005-07-05 08:34 pm UTC
Re: Question - [info]wibbble, 2005-07-05 08:24 pm UTC
Re: Question - [info]tatjna, 2005-07-05 08:42 pm UTC
Oops - [info]tatjna, 2005-07-05 08:56 pm UTC

[info]attrice
2005-07-05 05:29 pm UTC (link)
"I believe that individual Gods manifest as culture-specific reflections of the Divine. As such, they are tied to specific human cultures, not particular human genomes."

Ok. That's great, but what if someone's culture specifically states the opposite? Or maybe not the opposite, but their culture gives preference to those who were born into it; does your belief trump their culture?

As an example, my maternal grandmother is Jewish. She is not particularly religious and my mother was raised in a secular household as was I. I know very little about Judaism. Still, I'm considered Jewish and as such if I decide I want to learn about Judaism, want to attend synagogue etc....I can with very little difficulty even if my interest is only mild. Now someone else with no Jewish ancestry can be VERY interested in Judaism, can be thoroughly commited to learning it and can feel "called" personally by Jehovah to be a Jew. And yet, he will not receive, from many groups, the same encouragement as I would. He may be turned away even. Is this fair? It doesn't matter.

Religion is more than deity. It's tied up in a people's culture, in their everyday customs, the way they greet each other, their laws. And yeah, that creates conflict when we feel like a particular deity has called us, but priviledging our UPG over someone else's history is asinine and fluffy to the extreme. I mean, how big of an ego must you (general you) have in order to convince yourself that a God, who has thousands of years of history within a certain culture and with a certain people, has exempted you from having to respect the culture that gave that God life? Which, imho, means that if that culture says "you're not welcome here" then you need to do more than stamp your feet and demand they acknowledge your compltely personal and unprovable relationship with their deity as valid.

I do feel the need, althought I think it should be obvious, that the same does not apply to self-appointed gatekeepers of religions that have no direct line to the modern era.

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[info]beanrua
2005-07-05 06:10 pm UTC (link)
In some lives, association with deity and then, with culture, can take quite awhile.

When I was in my 20's, occasionally I would fall over elephant-headed Ganesh, especially when facing some difficult time or choice.

I had virtually no interest in Eastern culture or spirituality. I considered myself Wiccan.

In my thirties, I looked for a suitable name and personality for my first personal computer. I chose a name which was unfamiliar to me: Sarasvati. Again, I considered myself pretty much Wiccan.

Funny, as the years went on, I found myself asking more and more questions about Hinduism and Buddhism, and feeling very attracted to the ideas and parts of the culture. My interest and relationship grew. The little synchronicities happened that prove the relationships are growing.

During a very dark period, when I had little hope of finding my own heritage and parentage, I pleaded with Lord Ganesh, Master of Obstacles, to help me. If he would help me, I would, in turn, bring a sacrifice to one of his altars.

I received that help, and our relationship grew.

One day I inexplicably found myself in the midst of practicing Tibetan Buddhists, and found myself meeting my esteemed guru, who told me how Ganesh was an integral part of their pantheon.

Funny, that I find myself an odd mixture of Tibetan Buddhist and western witch, at home in a community that honors both Buddhist and Russian Orthodox practice. Odd, odd mixture, but still I am home. I continue absorbing, studying, trying to understand how everything fits together. I understand culture is best understood in the nuance of the language, and in the culture of the people. Still, I cannot deny I am a child of the capitalist American suburban machine, and no matter how well I study, still, I will never be 100% acculturated to any other culture. I will still sometimes be awkward and foreign, and try my best to be at ease, observant and respectful.

I will continue to trust, and put my hand in my beloved elephant-headed Lord's hand, and hope that He leads me to the heart of spirituality. Ultimately, He helped me choose him. He didn't care how ignorant I was, because through His hand, I learn.

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