nonfluffypagans: OK this is getting ridiculous and Pagans

ladyblackdragon (

ladyblackdragon) wrote in

nonfluffypagans,
@ 2005-07-04 11:40:00

Entry tags:

cultural "borrowing"

OK this is getting ridiculous and Pagans need to get a clue about what's what.

EITHER......
ONLY people of a certain culture can worship the Gods of that culture AND IT'S NOT CONSIDERED RACIST to adhere to that particular line of thought....

OR

The Gods call whom They will and it is not up to any one person to put limitations on this on behalf of the Gods.

Oddly enough, a line from Christian Scripture comes to mind: "O ye of little faith!" Why is it that Pagans seem to have this need to interfere with the way the Gods will or won't be worshiped? Who are any of US to say? Where is the faith in the ability of the Gods to handle things Themselves? Is our faith in our Gods so WEAK? Do we think They really need us to be their "heavies" for Them? Please. If I have a wish to be laughed at by the Aesir, I'll certainly suggest to Odin and Tyr and Thor and the others that they can't handle Their own business and we'll be doing it for Them.

Makes me wonder just who the fluffies are, then...the people who have some confidence in the Gods, or the people who want to micromanage everything for Them.

(Post a new comment)

	snapes_angel 2005-07-04 03:50 pm UTC (link)
	The Gods call whom They will and it is not up to any one person to put limitations on this on behalf of the Gods. Thsi si the one I tend to vote for. I have seen Christians refer to such as a "calling" or something very much like that, though I think it applies jsut sas well without as within a system. Then again, FWIW, that's IMHO. (Reply to this)

breklor
2005-07-04 03:55 pm UTC (link)

That's a charming dichotomy you've constructed.

For practical purposes, though, I can't agree with it.

I feel quite strongly that if you're gonna worship or otherwise invoke a particular deity, you should bloody well do it right. Doing it right involves knowing that deity well. It involves knowing, at least to some degree, the context in which that deity exists - the culture of the deity's worshippers, and the deity's interactions with other members of the pantheon.

If the Gods were a little more tangible, if there was some clear entity we could all point to ("Oh, that big dude over there is Thor... go ask him anything you want") then we could trust Them to tell us these things. Imagine a novice in circle... *tap on shoulder* "Ahem, Thor here... That ritual chalice should be full of mead, thanks, not Chardonnay. Oh, and I never did like the Marvel Comics version of my costume. That HeroClix figure is really not the best representation of me. Kthxbye." I wish.

So I think it does indeed fall upon us ("us" meaning the more experienced and level-headed members of the pagan community, which I am gonna go out on a limb and presume to be the composition of this LJ-community) to, as you say, be the "heavies" - although I prefer a gentler term, because I act in a gentler fashion. It falls upon us to advise the young and the hasty and the fluffy.

We can say "Look, it's okay to put that little statuette of Kuan Yin on your altar. But know that there's more to Her than just being the Goddess of Compassion, and don't just project onto Her your ideas of what constitutes compassion. She's more than just a word. Go read some books... do the work... then come back and invoke Her." I don't think you have to be Chinese to invoke Kuan Yin, but most pagans I know couldn't name a single other deity from the Chinese pantheon. (Including, I confess, myself, but I don't invoke Kuan Yin, so there you go.)

(Reply to this) (Thread)

ladyblackdragon
2005-07-04 04:30 pm UTC (link)

I'm sorry that They haven't spoken to you any more clearly than They have, but They certainly have done so for me.

You are also assuming that I'm advocating "do whatever feels good" BS.

I have never advocated this. People SHOULD read and do the research and STOP buying books from Llewellyn because they suck so bad.

Remember, I'm the one who posted the link to Joanna Hautin-Mayer's article "When is a Celt not a Celt" because someone here mentioned DJ Conway's book "Celtic Magic" and I wanted to bring that to a grinding, screaming halt.

If I was that stupid, would I have bothered posting an article from a historian who actually has a degree from a real accredited university and has gone to college, which is more than what Silver RavingFluff can claim?

People need to quit assuming they know what I'm talking about.

	kawaiililme 2005-07-04 05:22 pm UTC (link)
	I agree with number one especially...you can't assume anything about other pagans because it's so broad a following, and many of us enjoy the pagan community because of the mentality of open mindedness. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	wibbble 2005-07-04 04:13 pm UTC (link)
	Ah, yes. Broad statements painted over all Pagans, an either/or extreme position, random ALL CAPS words... Are you deliberately trolling, or did you create this masterpiece by accident? (That is, are you being a prick, or an idiot?) (Reply to this) (Thread)

	dom_ino 2005-07-04 04:41 pm UTC (link)
	Not everyone assumes, like you do, that gods exist in any tangible way, or even outside our own heads at all. Suggesting that because others operate differently than you they need to "run off and be atheists" is extremely ignorant. Despite your attempt, you don't have the ability to tell people how to work. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	tiferet 2005-07-05 10:00 pm UTC (link)
	Dude, if you don't think the gods exist, then you ARE an atheist. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	lilithcoyote 2005-07-04 05:03 pm UTC (link)
	I am personally offended by the easy way in which you dismiss real problems in the pagan community as "icky pickiness." Stand aside and say "ewww" all you want, your hands are just as dirty. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	kawaiililme 2005-07-04 05:19 pm UTC (link)
	I concur! The Gods call who they will. It's the responsibility of those who are called to learn about their Deity and understand the best way to worship them, whether through meditation or book reading, it doesn't matter. It's not up to us to dictate who can follow the gods or what/how they do it. Right on!! (Reply to this) (Thread)

	Re: Take a deep breath... foxesdaughter 2005-07-04 06:30 pm UTC (link)
	Thank you, I appreciate your clear-headedness! Dennis: ... did you see him repressing me, then? That's what I've been on about ... (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	bukyou 2005-07-04 07:19 pm UTC (link)
	I think you posted this to the wrong community. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	freakyferret 2005-07-04 07:25 pm UTC (link)
	I'd have to say 95% of the comments in this post are in the wrong community as well. I was reading it and constantly found myself going "What the fuck!?" When did this community become a wankfest for idiots? (Reply to this) (Parent)

	morganne13 2005-07-04 10:38 pm UTC (link)
	Here! Here! [wanting to also cutely shake creepy plastic toy and having been a little girl in the 80s and therefore given non-creepy action figures like My Little Ponies, wonders if can steal old creepy sci-fi figures from younger brothers without them noticing] (Reply to this) (Parent)

	nouse4anick_00 2005-07-04 09:40 pm UTC (link)
	The Gods call whom They will and it is not up to any one person to put limitations on this on behalf of the Gods here here!!!! The gods have some plan, let them play it out =) (Reply to this)

	herbmcsidhe 2005-07-04 11:20 pm UTC (link)
	I suggest reading Neil Gaiman's American Gods. It's one of the best pieces I've seen in years that touches on this topic. /s/Irish-Scots-Creek-Cherokee-unknownAfrican-French-German-andprobablytheother50varieties (Reply to this)

	winterlion 2005-07-04 11:43 pm UTC (link)
	It's not "either or". flip side - those who don't learn the culture of the deities who called them are probably doomed to a very bad fate. At best they'll be called fluffy. At worst - the gods -may- punish them for their arrogance. Who knows? (Reply to this)

	Re: Listening to the Gods silent_sybil 2005-07-06 04:11 am UTC (link)
	What if they say kill Johnny down the street? Well, according to the holy books of certain groups, they frequently do exactly that. O_o (Reply to this) (Parent)

	ronin75 2005-07-05 07:05 pm UTC (link)
	Ya know, if you're going to pull from other systems to attempt to carry your feeble point, you should probably get the gods right. Tyr is Vanir, not Aesir. Of course, from the hammering you're getting on your mislaid statements, I doubt that you need me pointing out yet another area in which you're wrong. Ronin (Reply to this) (Thread)

	moon_ferret 2005-07-06 03:44 am UTC (link)
	BOOYAH! high fives the Seattle boy Take a bow. That was sweet. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	bl0odyone 2005-07-05 09:32 pm UTC (link)
	hehe, someone with some brains. I like you... see how many replies you got?.. ahhh, people in denial of the truth.. such a lovely thing..NOT! (Reply to this)

	swisscelt 2005-07-06 02:05 am UTC (link)
	Actually, I don't mind if those from other cultures worship a particular culture's gods. What bothers me is when they do so while having the hubris to tell those in the original culture what they should be believing. The Gods may call whom they wilt, but I doubt they play mind games with their chosen people. Well, most of them, anyway.... (Reply to this)

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