Chaos_Rose ([info]chaos_rose) wrote in [info]nonfluffypagans,
@ 2005-07-03 14:14:00
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Current mood: curious
Current music:Corelli's Sonata 1 in D Major
Entry tags:cultural "borrowing"

Touching the Divine? Or touching the third rail?
In previous threads, there have been charges of one party or another 'strip-mining,' and cultural imperialism/appropriation.

Where does cultural identity stop and ethnocentrism start? Do 'outsiders' or those of mixed ethnicity have a place within the culture?

What is the difference between cultural appreciation and cultural appropriation? Is it possible to appreciate without participating in the appropriation?

When do the gods come into it? Some of us cross pantheons, some participate in a tradition other than the one we are 'entitled' to by our heritage. Is it Their choice or ours that moves us to worship across the lines?

I am interested in your views on this, and think it would make for enlightening discussion.


(Post a new comment)


[info]ladyblackdragon
2005-07-03 10:15 pm UTC (link)
I say the Gods can look after themselves.

If the Gods have a problem with what any one worshiper does, they WILL let that worshiper know in no uncertain terms.

No one else should presume to say or to put limits on the Divine for anyone else.

(Reply to this) (Thread)
That statement is misleading nonsense of the worst sort...
[info]edwarddain
2005-07-03 10:52 pm UTC (link)
I'm so glad that we don't we don't have to worry about religious fanatics (or just plain kooks) claiming to act with a Divine Mandate because according to you...

The Gods will handle it themselves.

Do I really have to enumerate the examples from the last 100 years that show how inane that statement is?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
Re: That statement is misleading nonsense of the worst sort... - [info]boy_pastiche, 2005-07-04 02:58 am UTC
*bows* - [info]edwarddain, 2005-07-04 03:20 am UTC
Re: *bows* - [info]boy_pastiche, 2005-07-04 03:22 am UTC
Re: That statement is misleading nonsense of the worst sort... - [info]ladyblackdragon, 2005-07-04 04:02 pm UTC
That's nice. - [info]edwarddain, 2005-07-04 06:06 pm UTC

[info]lilithcoyote
2005-07-03 10:55 pm UTC (link)
Some cultures believe that their gods cannot exist without that particular people. But, that aside, it's pretty arrogant to insist that so long as "the gods" are obviously punishing the colonist then to hell with what the people they're ripping off think. Arrogant and privileged as anything ever said by the Brits who stole huge chunks of Africa or the US calvary as it plundered the west.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
(no subject) - [info]boy_pastiche, 2005-07-04 02:59 am UTC

[info]ferelwing
2005-07-07 02:49 am UTC (link)
I say you're a bit mistaken. Let us not forget many things that were done in the name of the "Gods" or "God" that are repulsive to modern man-kind. Do you think that the Aztec gods were "light and warmth"? Did you forget that they "demanded" blood sacrifices!

Many other deities also demanded blood. Some of the gods that are worshipped today did as well. Have we found alternatives? Yes, does that mean that blood was not once considered sacred and that there are some would be worshippers who can and will use that as an excuse? I doubt the gods who demanded blood once before would be angry with them. Not all gods are peaceful.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]lilithcoyote
2005-07-03 11:16 pm UTC (link)
Appreciation: I sure do love the Iron Chef series! Best thing to hit the American airwaves since Monty Python!

Appropriation: Kawaii! Call me Lady Mae Lin Harajuku! I so totally love anime, I know all about jujitsu and tae kwon do and egg foo young, also! ^_^ I totally dig what it means to be Asian-American, I mean I eat RAMENS every DAY!!!

Appreciation: I sure do enjoy reading about Native American religious traditions. Hey, I'm putting together a donation for the Blackfoot community college library, wanna chip in?

Appropriation: I AM a SHAMAN! I totally went on a vision quest, just like the instructions in Lady Sheba Moon Wolf Bear Skin Rug's book, I went without pop tarts for THREE DAYS and like omg I totally met my totem animal, which was of course a GRIFFIN! And then then then I found out in another life I was totally like a medicine man!!! I can't remember for which tribe. And then like I went out and bought a bunch of dreamcatchers, and I tried to go to a sweatlodge, but those Natives on the reservation are SO NARROWMINDED they totally wouldn't let me. So I opened my own. It's only $99 per person!!!

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]happydog
2005-07-03 11:34 pm UTC (link)
best answer so far!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
(no subject) - [info]ulfhildr, 2005-07-03 11:53 pm UTC
In words that still ring in my head...
[info]edwarddain
2005-07-03 11:58 pm UTC (link)
...like a really bad commercial jingle.

Beyond Appropriation and verging nigh upon insanity:
Me: "Ummm, nice outfit."
Her: "Thanks! My totem is Merlin, so he makes me dress like Morgan Le Fay."
Me: *Brain Imploding*

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
Re: In words that still ring in my head... - [info]chaos_rose, 2005-07-04 12:11 am UTC
The Horror, the Horror... - [info]edwarddain, 2005-07-04 12:46 am UTC
Re: The Horror, the Horror... - [info]chaos_rose, 2005-07-04 12:59 am UTC
Re: The Horror, the Horror... - [info]edwarddain, 2005-07-04 02:37 am UTC
Re: The Horror, the Horror... - [info]chaos_rose, 2005-07-04 03:29 am UTC
I'm sorry. - [info]edwarddain, 2005-07-04 03:35 am UTC
Re: I'm sorry. - [info]chaos_rose, 2005-07-04 03:55 am UTC
Re: The Horror, the Horror... - [info]ladymorgaine, 2005-07-04 10:50 pm UTC
Oh please! - [info]edwarddain, 2005-07-04 11:58 pm UTC
Re: Oh please! - [info]ladymorgaine, 2005-07-05 12:36 am UTC
*chuckle* - [info]edwarddain, 2005-07-05 12:50 am UTC
Re: The Horror, the Horror... - [info]morganne13, 2005-07-04 10:58 pm UTC
Re: In words that still ring in my head... - [info]sphinxmuse, 2005-07-04 02:44 am UTC
*shudder* - [info]edwarddain, 2005-07-04 02:48 am UTC
Re: *shudder* - [info]sphinxmuse, 2005-07-04 02:58 am UTC
Wrenching this back On-Topic... - [info]edwarddain, 2005-07-04 03:15 am UTC
Re: Wrenching this back On-Topic... - [info]chaos_rose, 2005-07-04 04:22 pm UTC
Re: Wrenching this back On-Topic... - [info]lysana, 2005-07-04 08:39 pm UTC
Re: Wrenching this back On-Topic... - [info]chaos_rose, 2005-07-04 09:04 pm UTC
Re: Wrenching this back On-Topic... - [info]morganne13, 2005-07-04 11:04 pm UTC
Re: Wrenching this back On-Topic... - [info]chaos_rose, 2005-07-05 12:31 am UTC
Re: Wrenching this back On-Topic... - [info]morganne13, 2005-07-07 12:25 am UTC
Re: Wrenching this back On-Topic... - [info]sphinxmuse, 2005-07-05 04:53 pm UTC
Re: Wrenching this back On-Topic... City Totems - [info]dolmena, 2005-07-09 09:15 pm UTC
Re: In words that still ring in my head... - [info]kallisty, 2005-07-04 02:51 am UTC
Re: In words that still ring in my head... - [info]ladyblackdragon, 2005-07-04 04:07 pm UTC
Assumptions... - [info]phoenixprime, 2005-07-04 06:13 pm UTC
Re: In words that still ring in my head... - [info]edwarddain, 2005-07-04 06:19 pm UTC
Re: In words that still ring in my head... - [info]ladymorgaine, 2005-07-04 11:35 pm UTC
Re: In words that still ring in my head... - [info]ferelwing, 2005-07-07 03:03 am UTC
Re: In words that still ring in my head... - [info]ferelwing, 2005-07-07 02:58 am UTC

[info]chaos_rose
2005-07-04 12:07 am UTC (link)
I totally dig what it means to be Asian-American, I mean I eat RAMENS every DAY!!!

The last time I ate ramen every day, the only culture I was a part of was Broke-American.

Seriously, though, does the appropriation extend to wearing items of fashion and so forth? I'm in something of a real-life debate on this score, so my curiosity is not entirely motivated by the recent discussions.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
(no subject) - [info]boy_pastiche, 2005-07-04 03:13 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]chaos_rose, 2005-07-04 03:49 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]boy_pastiche, 2005-07-04 03:51 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]chaos_rose, 2005-07-04 04:01 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]boy_pastiche, 2005-07-04 04:20 am UTC

[info]emigab
2005-07-04 03:50 am UTC (link)
awesome answer.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]crafting_change
2005-07-04 05:43 am UTC (link)
perfect.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]wyrdsister_x
2005-07-04 12:10 pm UTC (link)
*STANDING OVATION* Well said!

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]gothic_oreo
2005-07-03 11:33 pm UTC (link)
The gods are laughing thier fucking asses off methingks. Look at those silly mortals, don't they know we are eternal?

(Reply to this)


[info]seeinglife
2005-07-03 11:47 pm UTC (link)
I don't think one needs to be of the culture that a deity originated from, but that one really ought to learn about and understand the culture that the deity came from. (As long as said learner doesn't start thinking they have "become part of" the culture, or know as much as or more than the people of that culture. OMG I read a book about Kali worship, I'm Indian inside-- uhm no.) One need not necessarily worship/honor/interact with exactly in the same manner as the deity is/was originally worshipped/honored/interacted with, but one should also be aware of that.

Ethnocentricism kicks in, I think, when you lose the ability to understand a culture from its own perspective, and try to view everything through the values and beliefs and such of one's own cultures.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]chaos_rose
2005-07-04 12:35 am UTC (link)
I don't think one needs to be of the culture that a deity originated from, but that one really ought to learn about and understand the culture that the deity came from.

I would agree, and add that this would extend into learning history. And by that I mean real history and archaeology, not some fluffyass mumbojumbo. There seems to be - on the part of some that I've met IRL - that history doesn't matter. It just blows my mind.

(As long as said learner doesn't start thinking they have "become part of" the culture, or know as much as or more than the people of that culture. OMG I read a book about Kali worship, I'm Indian inside-- uhm no.)

This would not make me think that they were culturally inappropriate, it would make me think that they were in need of psychiatric care.

Ethnocentricism kicks in, I think, when you lose the ability to understand a culture from its own perspective, and try to view everything through the values and beliefs and such of one's own cultures.

I would also add that IMHO ethnocentrism is a state in which one ethnicity is promoted to the denigration of another.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]gryphon_s
2005-07-04 01:34 am UTC (link)
I would agree with you. Putting aside the fact that here in the new world, we're such a mix of blood that we often DO have some relation to the cultures we become fascinated with. Putting aside the (possibly fluffy) past life aspect echoing forward, drawing us to a particular path/culture... I think we need to take it on a case by case basis.

I seem to remember there being a line from the movie about the life of Grey Owl, when Grey Owl is exposed as a "fraud" one of the chiefs/medicine men telling him that a shaman's power comes from his dreams, and he "dreamed big dreams".

I don't think it matters if we're of that culture, I think it matters that we LIVE as much like that culture as we can (in modern society some things might not be acceptable...and I don't know about you but I don't want to be in jail). It matters that they respect that culture and are serious about it.

and really, where do you draw the line? I have a friend who is a practicing shaman, and has been on the recieving end of a LOT of prejudice by the Native American communities in the area because he's of caucasian descent. When did shamanism become purely a NA path?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
(no subject) - [info]boy_pastiche, 2005-07-04 03:21 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]emigab, 2005-07-04 03:59 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]boy_pastiche, 2005-07-04 04:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]emigab, 2005-07-04 04:28 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ladyblackdragon, 2005-07-04 04:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]caoimhghin, 2005-07-04 09:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]emigab, 2005-07-04 10:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ferelwing, 2005-07-07 03:19 am UTC

[info]edwarddain
2005-07-03 11:53 pm UTC (link)
First you have to answer the question of if Deity with Name X is a singular entity with one set of exact attributes or a mask for Deity - even if that mask is for that same Named Deity. The masks may look much the same, but they may also be different in subtle (or gross) details.

I tend to follow the second point of view. I can worship Yoda and you can worship Yoda, but I don't assume that we're talking about exactly the same Deity - our viewpoints and understanding is inherently ideographic even if it is rooted in somewhat nomothetic research and data. I may have only seen Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi and you may have seen the entire series, and somebody else may have seen all the movies and read every book with Yoda in it and talked with Frank Oz and George Lucas. Each version of Yoda is equally valid for that individual person - but I think that an argument could be rightly made that if you want to discuss "Yoda" with a general audience that the last person is going to have a bit of an advantage in speaking to the widest number of people and have a chance of sparking the inner Yoda in the greatest number of people (assuming equal speaking and presentation skills of course).

The strip-miners are the ones that have seen a couple of the movies, talk about how the understand everything there is to know about Yoda, dismiss out of hand anyone elses comments because they Know the Truth About Yoda - and everything is relative and their Truth is just as valid as yours. So they have as much right to hold forth as an expert as you and retreat into mystical nonsense when asked to support thier assertions rather than just say "That's my understanding after my personal work with Yoda."

As for why we move across cultures in our search for a face of Deity to serve? I think it's a bit of Them and a bit of us. What I get sick of is the romanticization of other cultures and spiritual systems (and no, that not just the New Agers either...), sheer ignorance in the use of deities and practices from other cultures, and a tendency for people to accept at face value statements that we would immediately denounce if they came from a Christian.

And as far as "a place within a culture"? I think that the communities within that culture get to decide if you get to play. Not you, because a culture is made up of a group of people - and while you can try to join a group with the best of intentions it's still the group as a whole that decides if you are accepted or not - as well as how much you're accepted.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]chaos_rose
2005-07-04 04:25 am UTC (link)
Killed me this did. Yoda-worship now stuck in my mind is. Picture can I doctrinal arguments based on midi-chlorians.

As for why we move across cultures in our search for a face of Deity to serve? I think it's a bit of Them and a bit of us. What I get sick of is the romanticization of other cultures and spiritual systems (and no, that not just the New Agers either...), sheer ignorance in the use of deities and practices from other cultures, and a tendency for people to accept at face value statements that we would immediately denounce if they came from a Christian.

Bunkum based on faith is nothing new, though I think many people new to any faith or practice have a tendency to turn off the bullshit filter. Romanticizing a culture is - sometimes - a way to preserve it, but is most often a condescending nod.

For instance, the Ren Faire pays homage to a time when a woman had a shot-in-the-dark chance of surviving childbirth. Plague, smallpox, polio, and other diseases ran rampant. Thundermugs were emptied out of windows and the raw turds wound up in the water supply. People did not bathe. Children and infants died in droves. Lice were considered a fact of life.

Romantic?

Um. No.

I can apopreciate the history, the culture, the shifts that occured from the start of the renaissance that are still being felt today.

Want to live it?

Take away my tub and my Lush bathbombs in the name of cultural purity and there will be a resumption of human sacrifice and pronto.

And as far as "a place within a culture"? I think that the communities within that culture get to decide if you get to play. Not you, because a culture is made up of a group of people - and while you can try to join a group with the best of intentions it's still the group as a whole that decides if you are accepted or not - as well as how much you're accepted.

Hmm. Not precisely what I was aiming for, but very valid points. I can claim Native American ancestors, but do not claim to be of a particular tribe - even though I know where they're from. Some people have taken this as a repudiation of my heritage, though it's not.

I was wondering more of of the people who are not seeking to claim the culture for their own, but simply come from a place of appreciation for the culture.

Gah. Rambling and short on sleep thanks to neighnors with cherrybombs. Whap me in the head in the morning and I'll try to make more sense.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
*grin* - [info]edwarddain, 2005-07-04 05:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]morganne13, 2005-07-04 11:17 pm UTC

[info]tarr
2005-07-04 12:25 am UTC (link)
I mentioned this in a previous post, but strip mining is decimating a mountain to get the small amount that you really want. It's taking some of the good and tossing out anything that you don't deem "valuable."

I do believe "outsiders" have a place, but if they're respectfull. Learn the traditions and practices, but recognize that those traditions are integrated in the culture and cannot always be seperated. Lynn V Andrews is a classic example of cultural strip mining - she sells off "Medicine" traditions and subscribes to a racist yet romantic view of American natives, but does nothing to give back to that community.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]chaos_rose
2005-07-04 03:56 pm UTC (link)
I think that some people are fascinated with the 'otherness' of a culture but only capable of dealing with it in certain contexts where the other is neatly compartmentalized. Not that this is a bad thing, but it is a bad thing if one never moves outside of the neat little boxes. It would be the equivalent of eating baby-food one's whole life and never trying for anything else.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]sphinxmuse
2005-07-04 02:39 am UTC (link)
What is the difference between cultural appreciation and cultural appropriation? Is it possible to appreciate without participating in the appropriation?

I personally believe it is possible to appreciate a culture without appropriating it. It can be a fine line in some cases, but I do believe it is possible. Cultural appreciation includes a respect for the culture in question while cultural appropriation does not (although I think some naive individuals honestly believe they are respecting a culture while they are actually appropriating it).

I would compare cultural appropriation vs. appreciation with an issue that is often raised in the field of visual arts: copying/plagiarism vs. reference. Plagiarism involves attempting to replicate the art of another and passing it off as one's own without the proper acknowledgment or permission of the original creator of that art. On the other hand, if an artist for example wished to render a particular sort of landscape complete with representations of its endemic wildlife, she could gather a collection of photographs and other art which depict common landscape features, plants, and animals to use for reference for his or her piece. By viewing these other images, the artist could gain an understanding of the colors, textures, lines that occur in the land as well as the proportions, etc. of the animals and from that create her own unique piece based upon the understanding gained from her references. I would liken cultural appreciation to the latter approach, and cultural appropriation to the former.

A little while ago in another thread I was asked to define "appropriating Native American beliefs," and I responded as follows (it's a bit out of context, but I think it is relevant):
For instance, if you claimed to be practicing some form of Native American shamanism (or if you claimed to be a Native American shaman or medicine person) without having been trained within an actual Native community/tribe by qualified members of such a tradition. Or, if you tried to usurp specific Native practices into your personal form of shamanism without qualification to do so. For instance if you are of purely non-Native descent and you purport without proper qualification and study to do the Ghost Dance dance in your back yard, perform "Lakota" sweat lodges, be a pipe-carrier, construct a kiva, or create "Navaho" sandpaintings etc. this would qualify as appropriation.

It's one thing to be inspired by Native beliefs and practices, but if someone tries to take a Native practice wholesale, out of its proper cultural context (and generally without a full understanding of said practice) it can be considered cultural appropriation.



In order not to qualify as appropriation, the individual must first realize that the elements they have chosen to incorporate into their own personal practice from other cultural traditions, once incorporated, are no longer the same as the elements that exist in the original culture. In addition, one should not attempt to claim that their culturally-inspired practice is equivalent to the original practice of that culture.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]chaos_rose
2005-07-04 03:58 pm UTC (link)
Very well said - thank you. :)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
(no subject) - [info]sphinxmuse, 2005-07-05 04:32 pm UTC
immediate reaction... before i read other responses...
[info]emigab
2005-07-04 03:47 am UTC (link)
Well, as far as what pantheons we are 'entitled' to by our heritage, how many of us really *know* what our heritage actually is? Especially in the US. There is an idea of the US being a melting pot. And while like groups do tend to stay together, that is not totally the case. Yes, many people can trace a family line back to some country or another across the sea, but what about other branches of your family tree? Maybe your irish on your Dad's side, and can trace it back to Ireland, but what about your Mom? Maybe she's English, or French, or more likely, American, which is pretty much a mix of everything.

Basically, in the US, there is no way to tell what one is 'entitled' to as far as pantheons go as there are so many nationalities in each person's history.

For example, I know I have Germanic heritage. Mostly that is seen through my family name. However, I know there is likely some British, from my Grandma, and probably a plethora of other European countries also, many of which, btw, are not anywhere near 'pure' as far as French, German, English, Irish, or anything else. Also, I believe I have African American in my bloodline somewhere. Not enough that I can really claim it as a heritage, but i do know its there. There are probably a *LOT* of people in America, black, white, yellow, red, purple, green, whatever, that have African American ancestors. Its called slavery in the antebellum south.

So, if you feel called to deities of various pantheons, why let it bother you if they are not from a culture you can trace your family to? They may have reasons to call you that have nothing to do with where your family came from.



And, as for borrowing from other cultures and what I think you are referring to would be America's pop culture pulling from, say, Japanese culture or Irish culture. I think there is a fine line between exploitation and fascination, but I think that line is fine enogh to almost be nonexistant.

Basically, the world is "shrinking" so to say. Cultures are blending because people are blending. A culture comes about when a group of people are together for long periods of time and develop traditions and symbols and such. Most ancient cultures people are so fascinated with developed in different ways because the people did not have such easy contact with each other. Now, think about how easily everyone can contact each other now? How can any cultures not spread and clash and blend and everything. This has been happening for ages. It happened when the Roman Empire spread, and it has continued as people have had various empires and conquests, and as the population has grown, cultures have come together.

Now, when it comes to preserving the integrity of a culture or losing it all together, I dont' think there are any easy answers. I don't think a culture *can* stay the same over time. The nature of such things is that they grow and change with the people. There is no such thing as an original because it has been growing and changing since it started. I think we can definitely try to record things as honestly as possible, to remember where we came from, which is part of history. THe problem with history is that it is written by the winners, and sometimes, those winners will squash every story but their own. So, we can do what we can to remember the past, but the culture will continue to grow with the people.

Mixed ethnicity, I think plays into the mixing of cultures idea.

So, some of this probalby doesn't really answer what you asked, and I am sure I got of track, but I was on a roll and got to rambling. :)

(Reply to this) (Thread)
Re: immediate reaction... before i read other responses...
[info]drgndancer
2005-07-04 09:32 am UTC (link)
Very well said. I am 1/4 pure Polish, and 1/4 more or less pure German. Both of my mother's parents were adopted, I am fairly certain there was a bit of French Canadian in her mother's line, but even that is merely based on a name, not hard data. I was raised, other than a few trips to my great-grandparent's farm, as a "white bread American". Other than a fondness for Kielbasa (not the crappy Hillshire Farms stuff, get thee to a real Polish butcher) I have no real cultural ties to anything.

So, what now? Am I not entitled to have a religion? "Sorry, you have no cultural heritage; you're only allowed to be white bread Protestant Christian."

I realize that no one is actually saying this, but it is the "reducto ad absurdum" of some of things that have been said in this and other threads. The fact is that historically cultures have been meeting, exchanging ideas and stealing the stuff that works from each other since as long as there have cultures. We borrow from other cultures, other cultures borrow from us. For every Anime fan boy who thinks that learning four words of the language and wearing cat ears makes him Japanese, there's a Japanese kid in a leather jacket with a guitar convinced that he looks like an America Rocker.

Does any of this make it right when some duffus reads a couple of books and proclaims himself an "Indian Medicine Man"? Of course it doesn't. Is the guy who read the two books and now sells "sweat lodges" right? Again, of course not. What about the untrained or partially trained Lakota offering to sell sweat lodges? He's a member of the culture, right? What about the fully trained Lakota shaman offering "classes" on shamanism to whites? Does it make him better or worse if he goes against the consensus and teaches everything, even the secret stuff? What about the white people who took his classes? Are they justified in saying that they are shaman? Maybe "Shaman in the tradition of the Lakota"? Certainly they aren't "Lakota Shaman". Or are they? If through years of study they learn everything the Lakota would have taught a traditionally trained Shaman, are they then "Lakota Shaman", or just "white people that have been taught stuff they shouldn't have been"? Who makes the determination? The Lakota as a group might say, "He is not a Shaman, he is not Lakota", but this particular man, who is a shaman says he taught them everything they need to be shaman also.

These questions may sound silly; you may think you know the answers to some or all of them. Someone above said that they think the members of the culture should determine if you can play, but what if there is no consensus? I hang out on a few voodoo forums, I have heard fluffy bunnies claim that they are Voudon, because they incorporate Voodoo Lwa into their Wiccan practices. They get shouted down almost universally, no problem. Then there are the harder questions, I have heard that Voodoo initiations given to whites are not valid, that it does not matter what color you are as long as you go to Haiti for the initiation, that it does not matter who you are or where you are as long as the person doing the initiating is properly initiated themselves. A lot of these people are speaking to protect a vested interest of their own (the woman who likes to claim you need to go to Haiti to be initiated is a white woman who lives in Haiti and brings a lot of Americans and Europeans over to initiate them as a business), does this make their points invalid? The answers to none of this stuff are easy, and lines are rarely clear. The best we can do is to try to be as respectful as possible and still accomplish our own goals of spiritual enlightenment.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
Re: immediate reaction... before i read other responses... - [info]meetzemonsta, 2005-07-04 05:31 pm UTC

[info]ravendreamer
2005-07-04 02:08 pm UTC (link)
Appropriation implies an ownership of sorts by the culture. There are things a culture can own and things it cannot. It can certainly own teh tangible, like rituals, qualifications, sacred buildings, ceremonies, etc. It cannot own beliefs, deities, spirits, etc. If one is simply adopting some beliefs or is following a deity, they are not guilty of any cultural appropriation. On the othe rhand if one has absconded a ritual from a culture, or has claimed to be a legit holy person of that culture then they may be guilty of appropriation.

Really claiming 'theft' of a belief, is along the lines of claiming 'theft' of the emotion of happiness.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]chaos_rose
2005-07-04 03:49 pm UTC (link)
Really claiming 'theft' of a belief, is along the lines of claiming 'theft' of the emotion of happiness.

That's my feeling of it, too. It makes no sense to me to say that someone stole a deity, but it does make sense to say that someone stole the rituals and so forth for that deity.

(Reply to this) (Parent)
(no subject) - [info]sister_ananke, 2005-07-05 07:52 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ravendreamer, 2005-07-05 02:07 pm UTC

[info]ladyblackdragon
2005-07-04 03:28 pm UTC (link)
Well, seeing as how no one seemed to like my comment, maybe you'd prefer it if I said that black people had no right to worship the Norse deities because, well, they aren't white people and only people "of the Folk" can worship Odin or Freyja or whatever. I mean, should I have said this to the black woman I knew who felt called by Freyja?

Oh, but "folkishness" as some Asatruar call it, that's walking a line of racism.

Make up your minds people. Meanwhile, since I'm not here to please any of you, I'm going to do my own thing and if you all don't like it, then I suggest you call your therapist and make an appointment to talk about it.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]amandajayne98
2005-07-04 04:42 pm UTC (link)
Um, could you please quit being so upset.

People are going to speak their minds here and we don't all get along.

Thanks!

(Reply to this) (Parent)
(no subject) - [info]sister_ananke, 2005-07-05 07:57 am UTC

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