Your Friendly Neighborhood Religion Prof. ([info]quiet_wyatt72) wrote in [info]nonfluffypagans,
@ 2005-07-03 00:07:00
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Entry tags:cultural "borrowing"

Challenging the notion of Pagan "cultural appropriation."
I was thinking about some recurrent threads and thoughts I've noticed here, and one came to mind.

Lots of Pagans, online and elsewhere, complain that Pagans engage in misguided or unethical forms of "cultural appropriation"--the word "strip mining" has been used recently to talk about this. The idea seems to boil down to two points:

1) Deities are essentially "bound" to a particular cultural essence. Conversely, it follows from this that they are themselves incapable of changing, adapting, or morphing to changing conditions.

2) Pagans, in engaging with relations with "other people's deities" violate a boundary, as if deities were a form of capitalist commodity that could be owned, bought, or sold.

This to me seems sheer lunacy, for the following reasons:

1) Deities can and do regularly "strip mine" humans from other cultural traditions every day. Its called "religious conversion." Its been going on as long as there have been religions of any kind, and the more connected people across the world are, the more it happens, since traditions, followers, and deities seem to be in closer contact all the time. Sometimes deities aren't nice about it, either. They can be quite demanding. When Pagans criticize behavior in humans that deities get away with every day, it seems to me we need to think more deeply about religious ethics, and make sure we aren't substuting liberal guilt and so-called "political correctness" for actual ethics.

2) Cultures aren't "bound." In fact, cultures (even supposedly 'dead' ones) are constantly in contact with one another. The Mayan gods are supposedly dead and all that, since Mexico went Catholic, but I can tell you from my own experience in the Yucatan that Ixchel, Chaab and Itzamna have certainly survived, albeit transformed, in the religious experience of Yucatan Latinos and Mayans to this day. The history and nature of the Native American Church, as well as Afro-Carribean tradtions such as Santeria, Candomble, Regla de Ocho and Vodoun should be remembered here as well.

3) Deities aren't zero-sum capitalist commodities. If I worship a deity, that in itself has no bearing on whether You can engage in worship of the same deity.

4) Putting limits on deities (by delimiting them to a particular time and place) strikes me as an act of extreme Enlightenment secularist hubris and arrogance. Unless you are omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent, I would be very careful as a human being in expounding on the supposed limits of deities. And shouldn't that cause us to think even more deeply about criticizing the way humans (and deities) practice religion?

Peace.




(Post a new comment)


[info]happydog
2005-07-03 04:42 am UTC (link)
damn. Thanks for giving me a lot to think about...

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[info]quiet_wyatt72
2005-07-03 04:54 am UTC (link)
No Prob.

Interested to see what reactions you come up with after you process these thoughts...

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]quiet_wyatt72
2005-07-03 04:53 am UTC (link)
And another point:

5) If we are only ethically limited to worshiping deities we have a cultural/racial connection with, then doesn't that have the very real possibility of leading us down a very dangerous path of racially-bounded religion and culture?

I mean, what does that (ahem) historically bring to mind?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]foxesdaughter
2005-07-03 05:43 am UTC (link)
From a recent article in the Toronto Star:



It has become common to whinge about the "appropriation of culture," as if we should all speak only in the voice to which we can formally lay claim. This implies an exclusionary form of ownership, as if only Hindus can utilize Hindu symbols, only Catholics can paint the Madonna, only black women can write novels about black female characters, only Jamaicans can play reggae music. Or, equally troubling, that "outsiders" can cross the boundaries only when the content of their work is vetted and deemed satisfactory. This is madness.


Egg-zackly.

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[info]pinkpolarity
2005-07-03 05:45 am UTC (link)
I agree with you. Especially on this point, and its correlate: "if you are ethically limited to worshipping deities we have a cultural/racial connection with, what if THEY DON'T WANT YOU and some other culture's deities do?" I know at least three Kemetics, myself included, that tried to worship Irish deities due to the whole "follow your ancestry" concept and were told in no uncertain terms that we should not be doing this by the deities in question.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]foxesdaughter, 2005-07-03 05:50 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]pinkpolarity, 2005-07-03 05:54 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]moonwolf41, 2005-07-03 07:00 am UTC

[info]chaos_rose
2005-07-03 05:47 pm UTC (link)
*looks at the family tree*

Lemme see.

Mother: Scottish, Spanish, Mestizo, Sephardric Jew, English, French, German, Irish, Native American.

Father: Irish, Scottish, German, African (a greatX4 grandmother was a quadroon), and Native American.

Okay. Now what? By 'virtue' of blood and study of history, with a passing interest in archaeology and languages, I am entitled to worship damn near every pantheon west of India.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]emigab, 2005-07-04 04:10 am UTC

[info]montrealais
2005-07-03 05:34 am UTC (link)
As I have had it presented to me on various fora, the cultural appropriation issue basically boils down to aboriginal North Americans, specifically, who are very very tired of hearing clueless white people making hash of their spiritual traditions.

I think it's a different matter when discussing an historical religion, i.e. one that has ceased to exist for an extended period of time.

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[info]pinkpolarity
2005-07-03 05:42 am UTC (link)
I don't agree-- I see this same argument used by recons, especially Celtic recons, all the time. Although I do agree that it's something of a different issue with historical religions, at least, that it probably *should* be a different issue.

IMO, two arguments that are often conflated with the cultural appropriation one in recon critiques of neo-Pagan and neo-Wiccan practitioners are completely separate things. These being (1) if you are interested in a different culture, take the time to study the bloody thing; and (2) disclaim what you changed and what you do and don't know. Personally, I think that if someone wants to have a "medicine wheel" in their back yard that doesn't bear much resemblance to actual Indian practice it's okay as long as the person doesn't say "this is a traditional medicine wheel" and says instead "this was inspired by medicine wheels and means x, y, and z to me."

(Massive icon love, btw!)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]foxesdaughter, 2005-07-03 05:48 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]theal8r, 2005-07-03 06:02 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]foxesdaughter, 2005-07-03 06:11 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]tanyad, 2005-07-03 10:51 am UTC

[info]ashley_y
2005-07-03 11:05 am UTC (link)
Heh. They can't complain, because they're all dead.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]quiet_wyatt72, 2005-07-03 02:59 pm UTC

[info]quiet_wyatt72
2005-07-03 02:51 pm UTC (link)
I still think the issue is more complicated than that. There is a fair amount of evidence (See Catherine Albanese's work in general) that many Amerindians are just as clueless about Paganism and Wicca as the reverse--claiming that acknowledging the four directions and all that must have come from them rather than Gardner and European Ceremonial Magick. So ignorance works both ways. And you seem to still be 'begging the question'--because I'm challenging the very notion of a culture (or rather, certain cultural activists) owning and drawing boundaries around their spiritual traditions.

Also, the far greater danger for Amerindians are the Mormons, who seek to convert them ***specifically***. For LDS theology, Native Americans are a lost and degenerate tribe of former Jews that need to be brought back into the fold. LDSers also practice "baptism of the dead," and use this tool to offer conversion for dead Amerindian spirits, which literally takes their *ancestors* away from Amerindian religion. The Mormons are a lot more plentiful and powerful than Pagans, and yet I've heard almost nothing about what steps they are taking to deal with this. Its baffling to me.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]ulfhildr, 2005-07-03 04:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]misalady, 2005-07-03 05:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ulfhildr, 2005-07-04 12:11 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]dolmena, 2005-07-12 10:04 pm UTC
In my cranky opinion...
[info]edwarddain
2005-07-03 05:47 am UTC (link)
I don't think that the "stealing deities from other cultures" is really the issue in cultural strip-mining.

It's stealing the culture and pretending like it's your own - or pretending that you have some cultural "insider" status or information that you don't. It's the Queen of all the Witches / Fam-Trad nonsense in another guise.

Sorry, are you First Nation? Then don't pretend you are - and don't pretend you have any more freaking right to do a specific ritual (a Sun Dance for one example) than a Baptist congregant has to lead a Catholic Mass (or you do for that matter unless you're a Catholic priest). And don't presume that you know all the cultural intricacies of the ritual, deity, rite whatever either. Most people are woefully ignorant of the details of things in their own culture, let alone somebody else's...

The deities don't care for the most part (and if they do, you'll know it) - but the humans who do come from the cultures that have given birth to some deities or practices may care a great deal. And if we want to have any right to bitch about our religious freedom or our persecution then we need to respect that. The deities will take of themselves - people need a bit of help now and again. And when we start talking about "other people's deities" then we need to make sure that the people we talk to know where we got our information.

And it's not very sexy to say "Well, I took this deity from a culture that I read about, but I haven't actually bothered to seek out a worshiper of said deity to learn from them. So I'm basing this off my interpretation of (probably/mostly) secondary resources - which means it's cultural accuracy is suspect at best."

You want hubris? How about the hubris of thinking that we can learn anything from a book when there's a living breathing tradition? It's like listening to a Christian argue with a Hindu about what their religion really means...

[/rant]

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: In my cranky opinion...
[info]foxesdaughter
2005-07-03 05:58 am UTC (link)
OK. I agree with most of this. Practically all, really ...

But (you know there had to be one!) what if someone of non-native origins DOES do their homework? Manages to convince an elder or elder of their sincerity, trains in the particular tribal tradition, yadda, yadda ...

Do you feel that they would then be equal to a First Nations member that has done the same? Or what about a the non-native who has done all of the above versus the native who has been pretty lackadaisickal about his native spirituality - does the native have more "pull" (sorry, can't find the word I'm looking for!) with the community by virtue of his parentage?

I ask this in all sincerity ... one of the things that makes me go hmmmm in life is the incredible similarity of humans, DNA wise, despite ehtnicity ... does a few strands make a difference to deity?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: In my cranky opinion... - [info]arc_stormcrow, 2005-07-03 06:12 am UTC
Re: In my cranky opinion... - [info]foxesdaughter, 2005-07-03 06:14 am UTC
Re: In my cranky opinion... - [info]happydog, 2005-07-03 06:23 am UTC
Re: In my cranky opinion... - [info]missysedai, 2005-07-03 01:32 pm UTC
Re: In my cranky opinion... - [info]heimskringla, 2005-07-03 04:47 pm UTC
Re: In my cranky opinion... - [info]happydog, 2005-07-03 07:52 pm UTC
Re: In my cranky opinion... - [info]edwarddain, 2005-07-03 07:06 am UTC
Re: In my cranky opinion... - [info]deire, 2005-07-03 04:33 pm UTC

[info]heimskringla
2005-07-03 06:05 am UTC (link)
1) Religious conversion generally carries with it the understanding that the new devotee with begin a process of acculturation in the new religious culture. You don't, for instance, convert to Islam and then say "I'm going to worship Allah, but I'm going to do it my way!" and then start casting circles and invoking members of the Prophet Mohammed's family as the quarters. If it's a religious conversion rather than an appropriation, I don't see how it qualifies as strip-mining. If you want to convert to Islam, to continue with the example, you're going to learn about the Qur'an and its origins along with the Hadith of Mohammed and the history of Islam. It doesn't mean you're going to become an Arab, mind, but it does mean you'll start learning about Islam's religious culture and how to function in it.

2) Culture is fluid, but it's a combination of many different elements. Living cultures can change, and your example is an excellent one. The culture never died out, but it changed. In the case of a truly dead culture with no descendants at all, it's going to be a much different case.

3) Don't think that's an issue, really. Whether or not you and I worship similar deities isn't really relative. However, if one of us takes the time to understand the deity's culture of origin (especially in the case of a religion like Hinduism with continuous religious activity from its origin through now), but the other one opens up their copy of Silver Ravenwolf's To Ride a Silver Broomstick and starts writing an invocation to Kali-Ma as the generic Wiccan "Goddess," I'd qualify that as strip mining, because you've just taken a name and torn it straight out of its context.

Things are meaningless without context.

4) It's probably best to take this point and pitch it out the window. If my UPG is plain old maple syrup and yours is blueberry maple syrup, and I don't care for blueberries, it's probably best you don't try and pour blueberry syrup on my pancakes; if you try to pour blueberry syrup on my pancakes, I'm going to take my plate and hit you over the head with it.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]ashley_y
2005-07-03 11:06 am UTC (link)
Preach it, Brother Justin!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]quiet_wyatt72, 2005-07-03 03:16 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]heimskringla, 2005-07-03 06:04 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ashley_y, 2005-07-03 09:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]heimskringla, 2005-07-03 10:15 pm UTC

[info]happydog
2005-07-03 07:08 am UTC (link)
1) Deities can and do regularly "strip mine" humans from other cultural traditions every day. Its called "religious conversion."

My comments, based on my own experience. This is certainly true. How I ended up being involved with Kali is a long and odd story, but in my mind there is no doubt that She picked me, and that there is a lot more to Her than is commonly talked about. Long time ago I basically said, "Hey, if there is a Goddess, I would like to meet you," and I got my wish in a very visceral and unmistakable manner. Since then my path has gotten involved and evolved and revolved until I ended up where I am now. But the basic thing is that She up and said "hello" when I asked if anybody was out there.

I can tell you from my own experience in the Yucatan that Ixchel, Chaab and Itzamna have certainly survived, albeit transformed, in the religious experience of Yucatan Latinos and Mayans to this day.

One of the things I have discovered is that, at least in my view and in the view of my tradition, the nature of the Gods is evolutionary. I do not think that they stand still and remain the same always. One of the sayings of the Feri trad is "God is Self, and Self is God, and God is a Person like myself," which means that if humans evolve (and they do, mentally, spiritually, and physically) then Gods also evolve, because IMHO there is an intimate and barely-desribable connection between the Gods and ourselves. This does not mean that I don't respect cultures or go god-shopping, far from it, but it means that when I am thinking straight, I try not to close my mind to possibilities.

...I would be very careful as a human being in expounding on the supposed limits of deities. And shouldn't that cause us to think even more deeply about criticizing the way humans (and deities) practice religion?

Yes and no. I don't object to how humans and deities practice their religions; I do, however, reserve the right to take note of how humans' relationships with deities impacts their lives and the world around them. For example, Dominionist/Fundamentalist Christians have the right to serve their God in any way that they deem fit. However, if they should try to impose their God on me in some way, that I object to, and I will and do criticize the idea of "evangelization." For some Christians, that is an inherent part of their faith and something their God requires them to do. For me, it is impinging on the rights of others to make contact with their own Divine nature. I reserve the right to criticize that. (and before anybody jumps on me for being anti-Christian, I don't really like evangelization by any religious group, ISKCON, Islam, Rev. Moon, Scientology, or what have you.)

So I reserve the right to criticize negative behavior by believers in a particular religion. However, I remind myself, as often as possible, that the behavior of a believer does not necessarily reflect the nature of a God or Goddess. The Thuggees of India had an interesting way of worshiping Kali but I get the distinct impression, in dealing with her, that she no longer wants or needs that particular kind of worship. Quite often the way people worship a God has little to do with the actual God, and more to do with their actual needs.

Which is of course contradictory, seeing as how the paragraph above says there is an intimate connection between Gods and Humans, but there are, I think, some times when people think they are worshiping a God and they actually aren't - they're simply doing what someone told them that they need to do in order to worship that particular God. Which leads us to a further digression which I'm not gonna pursue, because this is long enough.

(Reply to this)


[info]ashley_y
2005-07-03 09:27 am UTC (link)
Deities are part of their cultures, but they are not fixed. As culture changes, adapts, merges with other cultures, splits off etc., so can deities.

One can convert, of course, in many cases. But it's conversion to the entire religion, not just to the deity. And in some cases, such as converting to Judaism, it involves absorbing a great deal of the culture.

The problem comes when one tries to separate the deity from the culture, and say "ooh look, I'm doing a ritual to Inanna today". Well, no you're not, your understanding of Inanna would likely be unrecognisable to the ancient Sumerians and Akkadians.

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[info]hagazusa
2005-07-03 09:47 am UTC (link)
I agree that it seems disrespectful to invoke or say you "work with" a deity without making any effort to understand the culture from which the deity originates.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]ashley_y, 2005-07-03 10:54 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]quiet_wyatt72, 2005-07-03 03:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]chaos_rose, 2005-07-03 05:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]c_korone, 2005-07-06 04:41 pm UTC

[info]hagazusa
2005-07-03 09:51 am UTC (link)
As far as my understanding of this issue goes, what causes the biggest stink in the appropriation of Native American religion is when white newagers create a Native American spirituality fad (much watered down and bastardized) which they then try to exploit for personal gain, offering pricey sweat lodges and vision quests, etc. and those dreadful made in China dream catchers . . .

I think a Native American person would be justified in being disgusted by the above.

I'm not saying you have to be from a particular culture to honor the Gods of that culture but it helps if you try to be culturally sensitive and respectful and not turn it into a commercial rip off enterprise.

(Reply to this)


[info]breklor
2005-07-03 11:24 am UTC (link)
The real issue I have with cultural appropriation is the tendency to take deities out of context, or take only one's favourite aspects of them. I like to call it the "cuddly Kali" syndrome...

(Reply to this)


[info]tarr
2005-07-03 02:59 pm UTC (link)
Strip mining, by definition, is tearing through layers of earth, taking only a small amount of the matter you've moved, and leaving the hillside decimated. Cultural strip mining is cultural empirialism in action. It's entitlement, not religious rapture.

Most people have mentioned the North American natives, and they're a perfect example. Non-natives hang up dream catchers and invoke The Great Spirit, carry pipes with no understanding of the immense sacredness of such an object. They invoke racist stereotypes of natives as the Noble Savage and The Indian Princess. And they completely ignore real natives and their modern day problems, preferring romantic yet racist portrayals. They don't want to meet "real Indians" because the reality will clash with their carefully constructed fantasies. And the reality is often depressing: poverty, alcoholism, broken families.

I know a white woman who is studying Native American spirituality. She's learning from an actual tribal member. And she's working for the community that's showing her these teachings. She organizes donations for schools on the reservations, tutors kids, and helps scholarship programs. This is real learning, and the anti-thesis of strip mining. She's taking the good with the bad - she's learning the spirituality, while giving back to the community that's given to her. And so really, there is no "bad."

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[info]heimskringla
2005-07-03 10:22 pm UTC (link)
Exactly. That's the point I was trying to make earlier regarding religious and cultural strip-mining.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]ravendreamer
2005-07-03 03:37 pm UTC (link)
I applaud your post and I could not agree more! Well said!

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[info]isachi
2005-07-03 04:32 pm UTC (link)
First I completely disagree with your idea of deities "strip mining" humans, but this is likely because we have different viewpoints on God.

I'm one of those people that is against misappropriation of deities and cultural traits so I feel compelled to speak up because ... boy do you have the motivations wrong XD

Sure they are many people out there who are terrible elitist snobs, but the majority of us who are against cultural appropriation are against it because it muddies the waters of both modern day Paganism and cultures that are being appropriated. It's perfectly okay to borrow from another system if an idea attracts you, but what most Pagans seem to do is borrow and then change.

Now I have done this many many times, but the difference is if I borrow and then change an idea... I don't then run around using the same names, terms and presenting my new version as an aspect of the original. That's what I object to-- not Pagan's dabbling in other cultures-- because it creates a lot of confusion and misinformation. Misinformation is harmful to our whole community.

Here's an example: One of my biggest pet peeves is Pagans who use Shinto gods for the simple reason that even in their prime these Japanese gods were never worshiped the way say ... the Greek gods were. Most Pagan systems are built around an attitude towards deities that generally is not present in Shinto. By misappropriating here we make it harder for people interested in studying Shinto to find good information, and we make it harder for these who practice legitimate Shinto or study Japanese culture to take us seriously.

Furthermore, I find those that would rather misappropriate often do so because of this silly vain concept that something needs to be "old" in order to be respected. If you are taking another culture's god, worship her in a different way, giving her a different personality, or ascribing different characteristics to her ... you are not worshiping something old, you have created something new.

(Reply to this)


[info]tosk
2005-07-03 06:01 pm UTC (link)
While I don't tend to be a fan of silly tripe being handed off as fact, I have yet to see any proof that there's more to mosbunall religions (pagan or otherwise) than some people's ideas. This seems true for native American ideas that have been around for a few thousand years, Roman or Norse ideas that have been around not quite that long, and more modern ideas that have only existed in the past few decades. From my point of view, anyone who thinks they hold a monopoly on a spiritual viewpoint, idea or deity (based on their gene pool) appears, to me, as having serious issues with their anal-territorial (2nd) circuit programming.

If your great grandpa worshiped X, I fail to see how that gives you the ultimate right to say how or who should worship X.

But of course, since it seems that sombunall people have a strong need for meeting requirements on the fourth (social) circuit and need that "us vs. them" kind of paradigm, I doubt that we'll see the topic reasonably addressed throught the various pagan BS (beleif systems).

I personally think that if you appropriate a deity and a ritual, you should make clear that you've appropriated it and it is not traditional (mostly for the edification of your listeners, participants). At the end of the day however, the responsibility seems to lie with the listener/participant... what the hell are they doing engaging in a ritual or religion where they haven't done their own research?

Ratatosk

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[info]rimrunner
2005-07-04 09:28 pm UTC (link)
I personally think that if you appropriate a deity and a ritual, you should make clear that you've appropriated it and it is not traditional

Ding ding ding!

It's about this, and it's about context. As someone said in another response, these things have no meaning without context.

It might be more accurate to say that they lose meaning when removed from their contexts. Put them in a new context, and they acquire new meaning—but that might be very different from what they had before.

I don't think that the answer is as simple as saying either, worshipping a god not of your own culture is wrong, or anything goes. The former still leaves a big question mark if you're an American, because most of us are mutts. The latter causes the obvious problem of pissing off the people you're appropriating from.

Still, religious practice and belief do shift context. Buddhism is an obvious example. How did we get from Theravada to Zen? By passing through a lot of evolution, development, and cultural boundaries. It happened again when Buddhism came to America. Religious practices change when they cross into new cultural contexts. Heck, look what's happened to Christianity, over the centuries.

Can this happen with gods, too? Sure it can. But it's trickier if they cross over without specific devotional or "working-with" practice attached. That's a pretty big contextual shift.

Now, being a librarian, I'm a big fan of recognizing context and doing one's research. I think these are good things. I think the context can tell you something about the deity. I think that if that deity is worshipped and recognized in a living tradition (which, being alive, has probably changed quite a bit over the course of its history), then it behooves you (that's a general "you", not you specifically, [info]tosk; these are just thoughts that occurred to me as I was considering your comment) as a conscientious person who respects that deity to learn something about it from the people residing in the context to which it belongs.

And if they say "no", well, then, you've got an unpleasant choice to make, don't you? If the god's really tapped your shoulder, you probably want to go ahead anyway, even though some people will have a problem with it.

Life's tough that way.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

the big picture
[info]lilithcoyote
2005-07-03 06:59 pm UTC (link)
The problem is genocide, genius. White colonists systematically tried to kill off my Crow ancestors by giving them "gifts" of blankets contaminated with smallpox, by purposefully decimating the buffalo--which wasn't just what my ancestors ate but formed the basis of their entire culture and way of life, including religion--until the Crow were forced to become farmers, then waging war and breaking treaty after treaty until the Crow were left with a tiny fraction of the land they used to live on. The children of the tribe were sometimes kidnapped, sometimes forced to attend boarding schools where they were not allowed to speak their native tongue and were forced to convert to Christianity and follow European ways. Women of the tribe were kidnapped and raped by white men. Men were persecuted by the military and the legal system. So on and so forth. Today the Crow culture is alive but only due to the persistence of the few who were able to hold on despite all this, and the language is hanging on by a thread. I personally grew up with only the vaguest idea of what my heritage means because of the thoroughness of the cultural genocide against all the indigenous people of North America.

And now the bored white people of America decide it's time to move in and colonize again. Take a deity here, a sacred place there, an amulet or two, a ceremony or three. Take them and twist them and water them down and make them more representative of white tastes and sensibilities than their original meanings and significance. Steal them from the people who have nurtured them for centuries and arrogantly proclaim it is the right of any white man or woman to take what they want from any culture that intrigues them. And then have the nerve to claim that they're doing the people they're STILL oppressing a favor.

It makes me sick.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: the big picture
[info]gookachu
2005-07-03 07:52 pm UTC (link)
amen!

as an asian american, i get really fucking sick of all this dinglefritz white ppl trying to be asian. they go around wearing stupid chinese dragons, speak in bad otaku-japanese, and eat everything with chopsticks and think they're asian. ya know the funny irony to that? CHINESE AND JAPANESE HATE EACH OTHER.

anyway, it's cultural genocide. and, you only see white people bitch and whine "oh, it's ok to culturally rape and steal and destroy other cultures, because we're the conquerors."

it's not white guilt, or being PC. it's about racism, ethnocentrism and genocide.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: the big picture - [info]sister_ananke, 2005-07-04 07:01 am UTC
Re: the big picture - [info]rimrunner, 2005-07-04 09:33 pm UTC

[info]attrice
2005-07-05 04:00 pm UTC (link)
"1) Deities can and do regularly "strip mine" humans from other cultural traditions every day. Its called "religious conversion."

Yes, but it's also a UPG and therefore not a terribly convincing argument. I mean, the logical extension of this idea gets us to the point where I can say "Kali and the Morrigan called me and they're super sweet and told me that their essence was that of happy sunshine and cuddly wittle puppies. And how dare you tell me otherwise! THEY called ME, ok?"

And yeah, I'll get shot down if I say that, but if we insist on using UPG as any sort of truth barometer, then the argument stops right there. I mean, the Gods told me, and you can't prove otherwise.

And really, it would almost be funny, if it weren't so disturbing, to see so many whites arguing so forcibly with the few non-whites around here about cultural appropriation. "hey, 30 white people agree that whites can use NA culture as long as it's with good "intent" and btw, other whites get to judge that intent. oh do some Native Americans disagree? well, stop being so racist, native americans. It's sickening."

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[info]lilithcoyote
2005-07-05 06:18 pm UTC (link)
Bwaahahahaha, your last paragraph is too right on.

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