nonfluffypagans: And I thought the regular pro-ana

Starved Persephone (

mistressmelissa) wrote in

nonfluffypagans,
@ 2004-12-29 21:28:00

And I thought the regular pro-ana communities were bad...

This is the stupidest thing I have ever read. I'm sorry (well, not really) but there is something wrong with having an eating disorder AND being pagan. I would think that if these stupid little girls really understood paganism they would see that having an eating disorder is nothing more than being stupid and ungrateful, and goes against the beliefs and practices of Paganism.

Let me explain.

Since the beggining of time (when paganism was the only religion) people prayed to the Gods for food, praised them when the Gods provided it, and held rituals for and dedicated Gods to the harvest. When they were scarce on food, had a bad harvest or drought, they believed it was something they had done to offend the Gods, not prayed to them enough, not made adequate offerings. Pagans worshipped food! And those who understand this still do.

Today, in America that is, people see having food to eat as a right not the priviledge that it is. Go to Africa and tell the people there that you don't eat because you think you're fat and see if you don't get scorned. Food is a blessing from the Gods. Being able to eat is not something you take for granted. Those who do, especially claiming to be pagan are the most ignorant, digusted people on the face of the earth.

Ya know there is background and meaning in the phrase "fat and happy."
------------------

I posted this in my journal a few days ago (its edited a bit). Wanted some opinions.

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	toomanywhispers 2004-12-30 02:25 am UTC (link)
	Flamewar starting in 3....2...1... (Reply to this) (Thread)

	ravens_hearth 2004-12-31 01:40 am UTC (link)
	Everybody's a prophet... (Reply to this) (Parent)

	tsita 2004-12-30 02:27 am UTC (link)
	What the bloody fuck? What ten week old dead goat did their parent fuck to produce them? Gah! That just really pisses me off. (Reply to this)

	amandajayne98 2004-12-30 02:30 am UTC (link)
	Go to Africa and tell the people there that you don't eat because you think you're fat and see if you don't get scorned. Or EATEN, as my boyfriend added when I read this to him. Chee! (Reply to this)

	feste_sylvain 2004-12-30 02:32 am UTC (link)
	We're a fringe religion. People attracted to fringes often come with some baggage. As sad as the pagan_ana group is, it's not wholly unexpected. (Reply to this)

paquerette
2004-12-30 02:35 am UTC (link)

there is something wrong with having an eating disorder AND being pagan.

I think you might be going overboard a bit. Some people do have eating disorders without being proud of it and thinking it's a good thing. Most of them would love to overcome their problem once they know they have it. It might even be argued that these girls DON'T really have an eating disorder, but something else entirely wrong with them.

(Reply to this)

glamwhorebunni
2004-12-30 02:41 am UTC (link)

What gives you the right to define what paganism is?
And isn't this list meant to be about getting away from the fluffy concept that paganism was once the universal religion and everyone who was pagan did _____?
And why can't paganism change? Must neo-paganism be the same as paleo-paganism? Because our "pagan ancestors" may have lived in caves, ate raw meat, sacrificed animals to their deities and regarded computers as evil. But I don't. So can't our religion evolve as we have?

If someone thinks it is right for them at this time of their life to be pagan and ana, then that is up to them. Do what thou wilt.

It may not be the path I choose, but I defend their right to choose their own path.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	missysedai 2004-12-30 02:47 am UTC (link)
	I defend my right to mock them mercilessly when the "path" they choose is utterly moronic, too. You know, respecting other people's religions doesn't have to include respecting stupidity. There are lines. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Yes -

amandajayne98, 2004-12-30 02:50 am UTC

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lordindra
2004-12-30 03:06 am UTC (link)

A few months ago, there was a post here about a website that was a pro-ana pagan faith(my first thought was that this was a repeat of that actually). They had an interesting take on it. The whole concept was building the will through self denial, which is a legitimate and powerful spiritual tool with a long history.

That said, while the idea does have some merit, what the path lacks is balance. Self denial has a lot of power and is extremely useful, but the way they use it is like a guy needs a hammer, so he buys a 20 pound sledgehammer and uses it for all things he'd need a hammer for, from smashing concrete(what its good for) to pounding nails to fix a wooden table(where you'll break it worse than it already was broken).

Though, reading this bit on their userinfo, this looks legitimate.
"DISCLAIMER!
This community is not intended as a site to promote eating disorders or encourage them. It's intended purpose is to support those already suffering from eating disorders and following the Pagan path. :) No-one involved with this community is responsible for any decisions made by members or readers."

Pagans are people too, we aren't magically gifted with the ability to avoid lifes problems, pagans suffer from eating disorders too. Whats wrong with a community to support pagans that happen to have them? Reading through several of the posts, it looks like its actually what the disclaimer says it is. Though that title is probably not the best chosen to advertise what they are about.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	mistressmelissa 2004-12-30 03:15 am UTC (link)
	Didn't LJ recently crack down on the pro-ed communities? That could be the reason for the disclaimer. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

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ishara
2004-12-30 03:20 am UTC (link)

Gah, I came across this pro-ana community a few months ago. I was curious about what the 'ana' in pagan_ana was... (I didn't twig immediately) and so I looked at the community info.

Although the community manager claims that the community isn't there to encourage eating distorders, there are several instances within the community user-info which I think contradict that statement:

"This community is PRO ED" <-- last I checked, the prefix 'pro' means 'in favour of' So they're in favour of eating disorders? how is that not encouraging eating disorders?

"Nothing tastes as good as THIN feels"

And there's a survey that must be filled out upon entering the community asking intrusive questions focussing on weight.
Uhm. People with eating disorders do not need encouragement to focus on their weight.

And then there's the community itself... the members don't treat it like a support group for people trying to deal with or recover from an eating disorder, it's a communal toilet bowl for people with eating disabilities to spew tips for emaciating oneself, into. In short, it only re-inforces bad behaviour.

It's like holding an AA meeting in a pub.

Stuff like this makes me so angry - this community is not helping these people recover, it's enabling their self destructive behaviour.

This said I have to disagree with you - I'm sure people with eating disorders can be pagan (It might not work so well with wiccans specifically though, what with the rede...)
They basically share information on how to emaciate themselves, and some of that information is in the form of spells and rituals.

I don't agree with it, but I don't deny what it is.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	montrealais 2004-12-30 03:37 am UTC (link)
	"Nothing tastes as good as THIN feels" My mother's raspberry yogurt kuchen tastes as good as being thin feels, so let's have no more of that foolishness. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

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scarydavedc, 2004-12-30 05:25 am UTC

I don't know why I bother.

soleklypse
2004-12-30 03:37 am UTC (link)

First of all: Paganism is not a religion. All Pagan means is "of a religion that is not Christian, Jewish, or Muslim". So saying that there is something wrong with pagan anarexics is tantamount to saying that there's something wrong with non-Christian anarexics, which is absurd. If you think there's something wrong with anarexia, so be it, but to declare that anarexics are not worthy of being a non-Semitic religion is rediculous.

Second of all: despite being technically pagan myself (that is, aligning myself with a religion that is non-Semitic), I do happen to find some tidbits of wisdom in those Semitic religions. One phrase comes to mind, "judge not, lest ye be judged." I think we've got enough problems with the fundamentalist Christians and Muslims going around telling people what's right and wrong in the world. If "non-fluffy pagans" is a code phrase for "intollerant pagans" then Odin help us.

A note about the author: I happen to consider myself a feminist who is at least as opposed to the psychological damage done by this image obsessed culture as anyone here. But having had numerous friends who have had eating disorders, as well as various other disorders caused by lack of self esteem (such as cutting), I can, with great certainty, tell you that telling someone that they are "wrong" (let alone not worthy of being anything other than Christian, Jewish, or Muslim) is not going to help them. If you actually care about the mental and physical health of the people in this world, I advise you to be a bit more tolerant.

Alright, rant over. As I said in the subject, I don't know why I bother. It is clear that you, and most of the others on this board have conceptions about the universe that are as rigid as the 51% of the U.S. who voted for Bush. I suppose that puts you in good company.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	Re: I don't know why I bother. mistressmelissa 2004-12-30 03:56 am UTC (link)
	They didn't specify, so neither did I. "It is clear that you, and most of the others on this board have conceptions about the universe that are as rigid as the 51% of the U.S. who voted for Bush." Now, thats an insult. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Now, thats an insult. -

soleklypse, 2004-12-30 04:41 am UTC

Re: Now, thats an insult. -

mistressmelissa, 2004-12-30 04:49 am UTC

Re: I don't know why I bother. -

blacknyx, 2004-12-30 04:09 am UTC

Re: I don't know why I bother. -

soleklypse, 2004-12-30 04:43 am UTC

Re: I don't know why I bother. -

ravens_hearth, 2004-12-30 02:48 pm UTC

Re: I don't know why I bother. -

swisscelt, 2004-12-30 04:22 pm UTC

Re: I don't know why I bother. -

ravens_hearth, 2004-12-30 04:34 pm UTC

Re: I don't know why I bother. -

swisscelt, 2004-12-30 04:38 pm UTC

	slate1198 2004-12-30 03:48 am UTC (link)
	OMG! You killed the HORSE! (Reply to this)

Just like vi

laid
2004-12-30 03:59 am UTC (link)

You asked for it, you got it(tm)

What's wrong with following an earth based path and starving yourself? You're not starving me are you? Well good then. That's the first test.

Does it affect anyone else.

Second test

Is the person making this decision on their own.

Nobody is forcing them not to eat. They're not eating of their own free will. (Yes, I know, that once one gets started not eating, it's hard to go back to it. This is an established fact, and as such, is presumed to be known.)

Third test. Is there a third test? They're doing this on their own, and it doesn't directly effect me.

Pagans worship alot of things. Some worship food, others the sun(c'mon, if the sun didn't show up again, it'd suck alot more than the not eating thing). Some worship the sea. That's a big threat right there, the sea coming up and swallowing your village. That just happened recently, if you've been watching the news/reading the papers/not had your head firmly up your *** about people not eating and bringing about the wrath of the gods for being ungreatful you'd notice this.

I don't know that there's any more to say on the subject, so I'll leave you with some words of wisdom.

"When your beard is feeling tough

Grab some of that magic stuff

Leaves your face so silky smooth

Really helps you catch your groove.

Burma-Shave"

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	Re: Just like vi call_me_harmony 2004-12-30 11:18 am UTC (link)
	"Does it affect anyone else. Second test" If these are your tests then frequently a person starving themself fails this test, it affects their parents, their siblings, their friends, their work or study colleagues. Eating disorders do not occurr in social isolation though the person with the disorder may feel isolated. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Just like vi -

ravens_hearth, 2004-12-30 02:50 pm UTC

Re: Just like vi -

paquerette, 2004-12-30 06:54 pm UTC

Re: Just like vi -

call_me_harmony, 2004-12-30 07:37 pm UTC

Re: Just like vi -

paquerette, 2005-01-01 01:53 am UTC

liquideyeliner
2004-12-30 04:00 am UTC (link)

If you don't have an eating disorder, you don't understand. You can't begin to understand the loneliness or isolation, nor can you understand the importance of these communities. After all, they aren't hurting anyone because you can't "catch" an eating disorder. An eating disorder occurs as a result of mental illness. If you can't be pagan and have an eating disorder, then you can't have any other mental illnesses, either. Wow, that sounds really stupid, doesn't it?

Also, don't take what a few people say and form an opinion about the entire Pro-ED community- Pagan or otherwise. I have *never* known anyone not to support someone going into recovery. As someone who has been a part of these communities for a long time, I really had to throw my two cents in.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	mistressmelissa 2004-12-30 04:20 am UTC (link)
	The survey that they require you to fill out to join the community includes questions about your current weight, lowest weight, heighest weight. I fail to see how this promotes support. And that is just the first thing I notice. (Reply to this) (Parent)

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	swisscelt 2004-12-30 04:14 am UTC (link)
	Since the beggining of time (when paganism was the only religion) people prayed to the Gods Sorry, but my irony meter is still broken. What, exactly, do you mean, "when paganism was the only religion"? (Reply to this) (Thread)

	mistressmelissa 2004-12-30 04:24 am UTC (link)
	I mean the beggining of civilization. The first civilizations, practiced different forms of paganism. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

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silverwitch
2004-12-30 04:22 am UTC (link)

Alright...I really don't see what Paganism has to do with the situation, Pagans are just as vulnerable to disorders of any kind as anyone else is...however --> I've always found these kinds of communities really freaking sick, all issues of religion aside. Let's all get together so we can affirm our decision to kill each other. That's just freaking happy. I dealt with anorexia myself for several years myself when I was in junior high/high school and I can honestly say that I cannot imagine how communities that promote such self-abuse can be construed as positive or healthy, helpful, etc. etc. etc. In short - it really gets my panties into a twist.

Anyway - yeah. The Pagan part is really irrelevant to me either way.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	silverwitch 2004-12-30 04:56 am UTC (link)
	I just realized that that made no real sense at all, so I apologize to the community. Posting to LJ when one is sleep deprived is apparently a bad idea. (Reply to this) (Parent)

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	bsafemydeers 2004-12-30 05:51 am UTC (link)
	Damn those stupid little girls, what with their serious condition and tendency to slowly starve themselves to death. How can they not see that the Horned God cries a silvery tear each time they skip dinner to weight themselves? If only they'd read the right books, they wouldn't have EDs at all! Sweetjesusfuck. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	swisscelt 2004-12-30 04:29 pm UTC (link)
	And Pan and Gaia will save them from their sins. ;-) Or was that Mithra? I get so confused... (Reply to this) (Parent)

	mindrevolution 2004-12-30 05:57 am UTC (link)
	gross!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Reply to this)

	gothic_oreo 2004-12-30 06:26 am UTC (link)
	I am all for pro ana pagans, because well, they will DIE, and NOTHING is more in line with nature than natural selection. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	mistressmelissa 2004-12-30 07:57 am UTC (link)
	Hahahahaa, good point! (Reply to this) (Parent)

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happydog
2004-12-30 06:48 am UTC (link)

actually, your rant makes perfect sense to me. It is a sign of how sick and spoiled Western society is that people actually want to starve themselves to fit a fictional idea of beauty created by people who have no idea what true beauty is, and whose motive in creating that ideal is primarily to sell useless products to a sick and spoiled society.

Of course, you are going to get jumped on, because the Great Sin Of Paganism now is to have common sense and use your judgment. Because then, of course, you are being JUDGMENTAL! and being Judgmental is Bad! Because after all, "It's All Good." Whatever anybody does, It's All Good, and We Can't Mock, Because We Haven't Walked A Mile In Their Blahniks, etc. etc.

So be prepared to be called "pscycologically disturbed" (sic), a "moralist," a hooded-and-robed Master of the Inquisition, a bible thumper in a former life, etc. Because in Paganism, the Greatest Sin of All is pointing out when someone's personal emperor has no clothes.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

mistressmelissa
2004-12-30 08:04 am UTC (link)

"actually, your rant makes perfect sense to me. It is a sign of how sick and spoiled Western society is that people actually want to starve themselves to fit a fictional idea of beauty created by people who have no idea what true beauty is, and whose motive in creating that ideal is primarily to sell useless products to a sick and spoiled society."

Exactly!
Seriously though, are there people with this 'disorder' in third world countries? Like I said, go over to Africa and explain that you have a disorder that makes you not want to eat because you aren't exactly society's standard image. I think it would be funny as hell.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

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ravens_hearth, 2004-12-30 03:25 pm UTC

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ravens_hearth, 2004-12-30 04:55 pm UTC

And one other thing.

happydog
2004-12-30 06:56 am UTC (link)

this particular community is not a "support" community, IT'S AN ENABLING COMMUNITY. Jesus H. Christ wearing a dress riding a pogo stick, people, THERE IS SUCH A THING AS A DAMAGING MENTAL ILLNESS AND THESE PEOPLE HAVE IT IN SPADES. SUPPORTING THEM AND ENCOURAGING THEM IS HARMING THEM.

By saying, "It's all good, it's OK," you are engaging in the moral equivalent of handing someone who is suicidal a loaded gun and telling them, "Go ahead and kill yourself, it's All Good."

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: And one other thing.

ishara
2004-12-30 02:47 pm UTC (link)

Thank you. I'm sure half the people commenting here didn't even bother to look at the community - it's the only explanation I can come up with for why people are defending this sick little community.
I noticed, when reading through the entries that when anyone did actually cry out for real help and support because they were trying to get better, nobody responded. :/
If it were a real support group, I wouldn't have a problem - but it's not, and they share tips on how to die of starvation, FFS!

Accepting unacceptable behaviour is enabaling unacceptable behavior.
There are ways to support the person without supporting their sick behaviour.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: And one other thing. -

ravens_hearth, 2004-12-30 03:37 pm UTC

Re: And one other thing. -

slate1198, 2004-12-30 03:52 pm UTC

Re: And one other thing. -

ravens_hearth, 2004-12-30 04:25 pm UTC

Re: And one other thing. -

slate1198, 2004-12-30 04:45 pm UTC

Re: And one other thing. -

ravens_hearth, 2004-12-30 10:43 pm UTC

Re: And one other thing. -

slate1198, 2004-12-30 11:02 pm UTC

Re: And one other thing. -

ravens_hearth, 2004-12-31 03:17 am UTC

Re: And one other thing. -

slate1198, 2004-12-31 03:34 am UTC

Re: And one other thing. -

ravens_hearth, 2004-12-31 03:39 am UTC

Re: And one other thing. -

ishara, 2004-12-30 04:06 pm UTC

Re: And one other thing. -

ravens_hearth, 2004-12-30 04:20 pm UTC

Re: And one other thing. -

ishara, 2004-12-30 04:26 pm UTC

Re: And one other thing. -

ravens_hearth, 2004-12-30 04:44 pm UTC

Re: And one other thing. -

slate1198, 2004-12-30 04:49 pm UTC

Re: And one other thing. -

ravens_hearth, 2004-12-30 05:02 pm UTC

Re: And one other thing. -

slate1198, 2004-12-30 05:13 pm UTC

Re: And one other thing. -

ravens_hearth, 2004-12-30 10:39 pm UTC

Re: And one other thing. -

slate1198, 2004-12-30 11:05 pm UTC

Re: And one other thing. -

ravens_hearth, 2004-12-30 11:42 pm UTC

	magicfuzzball 2004-12-30 01:15 pm UTC (link)
	...the pro ana communities terrify me. i'd hate to see what they'd say if i posted a picture of myself looking healthier and happier at over 200 pounds. (Reply to this)

	ursus77 2004-12-30 02:41 pm UTC (link)
	While ana-paganism is a disturbing phenomenon, I really think it's in the scant minority. Most pagan types I have seen are, uh, clearly in the opposite direction. I guess they, like you, see food as a blessing of the gods to be consumed liberally. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	ravens_hearth 2004-12-30 03:41 pm UTC (link)
	"To fully enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites. Moderation is for monks." -- Robert A. Heinlein (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) -

ursus77, 2004-12-30 03:43 pm UTC

(no subject) -

ravens_hearth, 2004-12-30 04:21 pm UTC

(no subject) -

mistressmelissa, 2004-12-30 09:59 pm UTC

Makes sense

ferretlightning
2004-12-30 05:25 pm UTC (link)

I totally get your point and I think it's a valid one. But girls like that are dealing with issues beyond their spiritual beliefs. People who refuse to feed themselves are mentally ill and generally folk in need of a great deal of counseling and possibly medication. Some may have some abuse in their background. I would think that explaining to such people, the way you did, may help them wrap their brains around why they should eat. But odds are good that it would only be a start. Anorexia and bulimia are just some really odd mental issues that a simple explanation, or even understanding of their path, may not generally fix.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	Re: Makes sense ferretlightning 2004-12-30 05:27 pm UTC (link)
	Although, if you're talking weight loss, that's a whole other can of worms and I don't see that as a black and white issue either. I like food too, but I don't want to start approaching physically unhealthy weight either. (Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: Makes sense -

ferretlightning, 2004-12-30 05:36 pm UTC

Okey-dokey then

foxesdaughter
2004-12-30 05:52 pm UTC (link)

Yanno, I tried for a few milliseconds not to respond to this ...

if these stupid little girls really understood paganism they would see that having an eating disorder is nothing more than being stupid and ungrateful, and goes against the beliefs and practices of Paganism.

Lemme deconstruct this for ya, darlin' ...

"Stupid Little Girls" - well, I'll give you little, for the anorexics. Not the bulemics though. Girls, Primarily. Stupid? Sure. Some of them. The ones that think being ana is kinda cool, and there are some out there. Of course, they aren't the ones dying in hospitals far away from their on-line friends. Those ones we call ill.

On eating disorders being nothing more than being ungrateful for the bounty they have here in North America. I can see how someone with very little knowledge of medicine, psychology and completely lacking in empathy could see it that way. On the other hand, you may wish to get your head outta your arse for a moment to do some actual investigation on the causes of anorexia, bulemia and other eating disorders. It is a wish to be perfect - to be accepted - to conform. Those that are truly affected by an eating disorder, and NO, I am not talking about the wanna-be's, are very ill. No different than those that have diabetes, or cancer.

Now, about anorexia going against the beliefs and practices of Paganism ... um ... can you cite your sources? Have you become the arbitrator of all that is Pagan (tm)? Or more succinctly - who the hell are you to tell me what is or isn't paganism, then, now, or in the future?

I guess fasting before initiation is right out.

Before I go completely over the top here - did you reallt think about this rant? I think the Britney wanna-be's who play with the dangerous diet fads are idiots too ... but they aren't truly anorexic, and I think it has a whole lot more to do with their own low self esteem than anything else. I would pity them nor more or less if they were Catholic.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Okey-dokey then

paquerette
2004-12-30 07:03 pm UTC (link)

I think the problem is pretty much that the girls in this community are all "wanna-bes". This doesn't strike me as the behavior of people who truly have eating disorders; seems like they'd either be in denial and fully in the grips of the disease, or else they'd have acknowledged and be working on dealing with it on some level. Even if they haven't gone very far toward healing, they would generally understand, at least intellectually, that it's NOT healthy and good, and I can't imagine them wanting to encourage others to perpetuate this behavior. Oh, I'm sure there's something wrong with them, but I don't think it's as black and white as all that.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

heimskringla
2004-12-30 07:04 pm UTC (link)

Okay, I may only have undergraduate training in psychology and next to no professional or academic education in human physiology, but I do know that eating disorders are extremely serious. They have nothing to do with people being stupid or ungrateful for what they have. Eating disorders are based upon a seriously flawed body-image.

It's important to understand that someone with an ED does not see themselves as thin even if all that is left is literally skin and bones. They actually perceive themselves as being overweight and sometimes extremely so. The pagan-ana group is only enabling further sickness on behalf of its participants, and posts like the one that started this thread really aren't helping any.

(Reply to this)

Much ado about nothing?

hagazusa
2004-12-30 11:13 pm UTC (link)

So I visited the linked pagan ana site, read the user info that stated that people had to apply for membership by giving their height, weight, etc, then went and read the posts. One member introduced herself as a 5 foot 4 inch person who weighed 140 pounds and whose lowest weight ever recorded was 130 pounds. One person replied to her and gave similar height/weight ratios.

Excuse me, but these people aren't any more anorexic than (cough) I (cough) am. 140 pounds for a 5 foot 4 inch person sounds like a pretty healthy weight to me. Even if they lose a few pounds, they'll still be okay.

I don't mean to sound heartless or insensitive. Maybe they do have eating disorders or serious body image issues, but it doesn't sound like they're in any danger of wasting away like African famine victims any time soon.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	Re: Much ado about nothing? glamwhorebunni 2005-01-01 04:57 am UTC (link)
	For WEIGHT: 130 Lbs. (59 Kg); HEIGHT: 5 Ft., 4 In. (162.6 CM) Body Mass Index (BMI) = 22.31 - Normal weight. American Medical Association says 17.5 is the BMI for anorexia. That's about 102 Lbs for a 5ft 4in person. So yeah, they're not in any danger. They're not even underweight. BMI calculator: http://www.us-webmasters.com/Body-Mass-Index-Calculator-BMI/ (Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: Much ado about nothing? -

ladykathryn, 2005-01-01 03:28 pm UTC

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