nonfluffypagans: New

angeluscense (

angeluscense) wrote in

nonfluffypagans,
@ 2004-10-26 14:08:00

Current mood:

hopeful

New
Salve! My name is Angeluscense. I come from the Stregheria Path. First and foremost, we are not Wiccans. Streghe were never on the Wiccan path. We don't believe in Duotheism, Or The Karmic Law or Three, or "an it harm none...blah blah blah". We Witches from Italy originated mainly from the Toscana region. The history comes from the Etruscan Civilization and spread when the Roman empire took hold or most or Europe. We, the Streghe, are not and were never a part of the Roman Pantheon or their beliefs. Actually they persecuted us and tortured us. But we have survived. Many things were stolen from us. Fractures (Spells), Fascini (Charms), Simboli (Symbols) and our Rituali (Rituals). It was brought into my family when my great great great great Grandfather Salvatore married a Strega. The craft is passed on thorgh the fire-lit talks and the moon-lit gatherings that were hidden in the depths of the forests. I am now a teacher and traing a student. If there is anyone who needs a question answered, feel free to ask. Thanks.

(Post a new comment)

	stephanielynch 2004-10-26 12:31 pm UTC (link)
	Are you saying spells and charms and symbols and rituals were originally only part of the Streghe? Welcome to the group, btw. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	onyxtwilight 2004-10-26 12:46 pm UTC (link)
	Arwen, you are entirely too nice. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) -

stephanielynch, 2004-10-26 12:50 pm UTC

	chronarchy 2004-10-26 01:16 pm UTC (link)
	Ooh, Etruscans! I love them! Tell me more about the Etruscan history that is involved? (yes, I'm entirely serious) (Reply to this)

seastormwitch
2004-10-26 01:17 pm UTC (link)

Welcome to Tennessee. I'm in Nashville so we're neighbors.

Ummm...it does sound like you're saying that Stregheria founded spells, charms, rituals and symbols...which makes it sound like you've been reading way too much Grimassi. Maybe I am misunderstanding?

As an aside..it also sounds like you have a very bad opinion of Wicca (the blah, blah, blah part kind of sets it out there). While I get fairly annoyed with the flakelites and McWiccans, we aren't like that. As a matter of fact, they aren't Wiccan ;) But I digress.

I'm also curious as to how comfortable you are teaching a student when you are so new. I know I have a hard enough time after years of training. You have my sympathies as I'm sure it must be difficult when you're still struggling yourself with learning your path.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Thanks

angeluscense
2004-10-26 01:45 pm UTC (link)

No, I am not saying all spells, charms, symbols, and rites were founded by Etruscans or Streghe, but what I am saying is that a lot of our material was stolen mush like Christians stole Pagan things Such as the Triquetra. The triquetra (often, triqueta) is a tripartite symbol composed of
three interlocked vesica pisces, marking the intersection of three
circles. Triquetra, deriving from the Latin word triquetrus
meaning "three-cornered." Now knowing that this symbols name is on a
Latin based language lets us know that it is distinctly of a Latin
peoples culture. Some say it is most commonly a symbol of the Holy
Trinity (Father, son, Holy spirit) used by the Celtic Christian
Church, sometimes stylized as three interlaced fish. This symbol
predates Christianity. Triplicities were common symbols in Celtic
myth and legend, one of the possible reasons Christian beliefs were
so easily adopted from the Celtic people. The interesting fact is the
Celtic languages are divided into two branches: Goedelic or Gaelic
(Irish, Scots Gaelic, Manx), and the Brythonic (Welsh, Cornish, and
Breton). Both being not of Latin descent. Some say these are Anglo-
Saxon based Languages. How can a Latin Symbol derive from a non-Latin
based Culture and Language??? Triquetra and other forms of it such as
Triskele and Triskelion have been in Europe in Latin Based Cultures
for a long time. I was taught Triquetra was an ancient symbol in La
Vecchia Religione. Whether it is Celtic or Italian is I guess up to
the bearer of the sign. The triquetra symbolizes the Triple aspected
Goddess (Maid, Mother, and Crone). As well as deeper meanings in some
traditions.

As for Grimassi, i have read a few of his books and they are fine to a point. They are too Fluffy Wiccany. There are things that I was taught by my family like Magia dell'ombra or l'erba della paura that requires to go into depth and yes, spill blood. We are a very passionate peoples.

Spells, Charms....are all natural. No one invented them. They just were. What I am saying is some of our stuff was stolen and renamed so when things like The Circle is considered a Wiccan concept, I get fired up because it was actually a Pagan one to begin with. See what I am saying.

And Thank you for your welcomes. :)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Thanks -

swisscelt, 2004-10-26 03:25 pm UTC

Re: Thanks -

seastormwitch, 2004-10-26 03:41 pm UTC

Re: Thanks -

myrrhdusa, 2004-10-27 07:17 am UTC

Re: Thanks -

seastormwitch, 2004-10-27 07:32 am UTC

Re: Thanks -

myrrhdusa, 2004-10-27 07:37 am UTC

Re: Thanks -

seastormwitch, 2004-10-27 07:52 am UTC

Re: Thanks -

myrrhdusa, 2004-10-27 08:02 am UTC

Re: Thanks -

seastormwitch, 2004-10-27 07:50 am UTC

Re: Thanks -

myrrhdusa, 2004-10-27 08:04 am UTC

Big claim -

tatjna, 2004-10-26 04:56 pm UTC

Re: Big claim -

swisscelt, 2004-10-26 06:59 pm UTC

Re: Big claim -

tatjna, 2004-10-26 07:26 pm UTC

Re: Big claim -

swisscelt, 2004-10-26 07:53 pm UTC

Re: Thanks -

c_korone, 2004-10-27 07:08 am UTC

	'allo witchywillow77 2004-10-26 03:35 pm UTC (link)
	I have Strega in my family too, but it died off because my grandfather was an only child. They didn't teach the boys back then... I'm very interested in talking with you, since I haven't found a little old italian lady to kidnap yet, and I think Grimassi drank too much Strega before he wrote that book. Email me off-list? whitejade@comcast.net (Reply to this)

ursus77
2004-10-26 04:15 pm UTC (link)

Hi. I'm a Roman reconstructionist pagan myself. I've always been rather .. skeptical .. of the Stregheria people. Usually they show up on Roman Recon lists, claim to be great esoteric masters, and then get annoyed when people tell them they sound pretentious.

Actually they persecuted us and tortured us.
Well, the Romans didn't have much love for sorcerors and charlatans and any other secret cult rocking the social boat. And they did often take steps to banish or restrict certain cults. But what exactly do you mean by torture, and can you please provide a reference for this? I don't mean to sound annoyed but everyone who is anyone - Jew, Christian, Celt, Heathen - often like to grumble about Rome's "persecution" and alleged imperial butchery. In most cases, the grumblings are rather overblown.

The history comes from the Etruscan Civilization
Our knowledge of Etruscans is a bit skethcy, so again I'd need to see some sort of documented evidence for this.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	swisscelt 2004-10-26 04:56 pm UTC (link)
	shrugs In many cases, it's the Vatican, not imperial Rome, that's the source of "persecution". That seems to be the case with most "Celtic" claims, anyway... (Reply to this) (Parent)

	myrrhdusa 2004-10-27 07:42 am UTC (link)
	Hey, you are back! Nice to see you again! (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) -

angeluscense, 2004-10-27 07:43 am UTC

volva
2004-10-26 05:27 pm UTC (link)

Ma va! Stregheria! Eheheheee! XD
Scusa, ma devo ridere. Non lo sai che è tutto finto il contenuto dei libri di Grimassi? Usando tanta fantasia ed alcuni pezzi autentici raccolti qua e la facendosi un mostro tipo quello di Frankenstein Grimassi si è costruito - inventato - una tradizione di magia che ha nulla ma nulla da fare con la verità della stregoneria italiana. Vivo in Toscana da tanto (vicino a Gonfienti dove hanno trovato nel 2000 una intera città etrusca) e posso dirti che conosco la regione ed anche i dialetti molto bene. Grimassi, proprio come faceva Leland (un grande truffatore anche lui!), tenta di essere furbo (per soldi, per celebrità, per "potere", che ne so) e forse funziona negli stati uniti dove la gente non sanno così tanto del paese e della regione, ma è ovvio per noi qua in Italia che sta dicendo delle ca**ate. Non è per caso che non sono tradotti in italiano i suoi libri. Se vuoi saperne di più della stregoneria vera della Toscana, cerca su Google "stregoneria, Toscana, -Grimassi, -Wicca". Non farti stregare di maghi finti, ma cerca la verità.
Buona fortuna.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	swisscelt 2004-10-26 07:02 pm UTC (link)
	I applaud you. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) -

volva, 2004-10-27 05:18 am UTC

(no subject) -

swisscelt, 2004-10-27 05:42 am UTC

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volva, 2004-10-27 05:54 am UTC

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onyxtwilight, 2004-10-27 08:24 am UTC

(no subject) -

volva, 2004-10-27 05:18 pm UTC

(no subject) -

ramlatch, 2004-11-08 10:36 pm UTC

	silverwitch 2004-10-26 08:17 pm UTC (link)
	darnit. I wish Babelfish didn't suck so badly and that I spoke Italian right about now... (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) -

zakcrazyquilt, 2004-10-26 10:00 pm UTC

(no subject) -

silverwitch, 2004-10-26 11:28 pm UTC

(no subject) -

volva, 2004-10-27 05:23 am UTC

(no subject) -

silverwitch, 2004-10-27 10:01 am UTC

(no subject) -

volva, 2004-10-27 05:13 pm UTC

	witchchild 2004-10-27 07:57 am UTC (link)
	Mille grazie! (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) -

volva, 2004-10-27 05:21 pm UTC

(no subject) -

appleblossomtru, 2004-10-30 09:32 pm UTC

	athanasios 2004-10-27 04:42 am UTC (link)
	Salve! It should be Salvete = plural. You are addressing more than one person. Vale or Valete. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	volva 2004-10-27 05:50 am UTC (link)
	It was quite some time ago salvete was in use. Salve is purely an interjection in Italian these days, and doesn't have any meaning beyond being a friendly, informal greeting formula. Usually when one is greeting more than one person, one normally says salve a tutti. (Reply to this) (Parent)

volva
2004-10-27 06:51 am UTC (link)

Fractures (Spells), Fascini (Charms), Simboli (Symbols) and our Rituali (Rituals).

Let me correct you; a spell in Italian is called a fattura (from the verb fare=to make/do), and the words isn't related to the word 'fractures' in any way whatsoever (e.g. a fracture is what you get when you break a leg). If you're going to claim Italian heritage and build a magical life on it, you could at least try and not insult the Italians by mistreating their language on top of everything else.

(Reply to this)

angeluscense
2004-10-27 07:37 am UTC (link)

What we have to know is that the Eruscan Civilization became a significant power around 1,000 B.C., so that tells us that they were there even before that. The Roman Empire took most of Europe shortly after that. Remember the Spanish Inquizition, when Pagans were fored to become Christian or certain death was upon them? Well There is a strong possibilty that they were not only forced to be Christian but encouraged to be of the Strega. Now, being persecuted, some streghe fled The Italian region and went North to find freedom. What probably happened it the two Pagan belief systems mixed right. What I am saying is that neither the Celts not the Streghe have right to say hey that is my symbol or hey that is my chant....no one has the right to say hey that is mine. I have worn the Triquetra and many Celtic Wiccan have came up to me saying I was wrong because I am a Stregone and that is a Celtic symbol. What is up with that!
The history of who is right or wrong is long gone. What I was trying to say is yes, stuff was taken from us. But I was not blaming anyone or trying to start an engagement. As far as the Triquetra, if there is a Celtic name for it the tell me. If one goes to www.google.com and types in History of Triquetra the first link to come up is altreligion.about.com/library/ glossary/symbols/bldefstriqueta.htm As for tatajina, http://www.museumoftalkingboards.com/tri.html Look there.
And Fractures, was taught by my family, that was their word for spells when it was not allwoed to be talked about in front or people. You dare think I ruin my fa,mily, you are saddly mistaken. Before you think I just made it up like an idiot, ask me. Maybe, just maybe, I have a reason right.
And lol, I am not a big fan of Grimassi. He does have a few good thing, but I have a friend that when she reads the rituals there she laughs, and I don't blame her. lol Who wouldn't. Stregheria is hard to teach because you have Outer Circle info and inner circle info that have to be divided. He instead added to the outer circle stuff and made it too funny to look at and take serious. :)

(Reply to this) (Thread)

ursus77
2004-10-27 08:55 am UTC (link)

Hi. I'm not going out of my way to be rude, but I'd like to see some sort of documentation that Strega is descended from the Etruscans.

The Etruscan people suffered the same fate as any other Italian dwelling they were quietly and gradually assimiliated into Roman society. That's simply a by-roduct of living in a superpower's backyard. No torture or persecution need apply.

The one aspect of Etruscan society that the Romans thought to preserve in any way was the religion -- we have a few glimpses on it thanks to the Romans. And from what we know of it, I can't quite reconcile it with what I know of Stregha. The Etruscans used to be the superpower on Italy, and Roman religion was directly influenced by them. The Etruscans themselves seem to have been infleunced to some degree by Phoenician and Hellenic cultures.

Given all that, it's just hard for me to believe that some native cult of Etruscan witchcraft that was never documented by the Ancients survived not only Roman cultural influence but also several centuries of Christianity.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) -

theaceofspades, 2004-10-27 01:28 pm UTC

(no subject) -

ursus77, 2004-10-27 06:24 pm UTC

(no subject) -

theaceofspades, 2004-10-27 09:45 pm UTC

c_korone
2004-10-27 10:35 am UTC (link)

Remember the Spanish Inquizition, when Pagans were fored to become Christian or certain death was upon them? Well There is a strong possibilty that they were not only forced to be Christian but encouraged to be of the Strega.

What? The Spanish Inquisition encouraged people to become Strega?? Or maybe you meant that the heroic, underground Strega were secretly approaching all these persecuted people and asking them to join their ranks.

To be fair, one's about as likely as the other..

But I still feel the need to point out that the target of the Spanish Inquisition was not pagans - it was Jews, Protestants, heretics and general 'non-believers' - but not a single case against any actual pagans. There is no evidence to support the idea that paganism survived in any unbroken chain in Europe, or that the 'witch craze'/'burning times' had anything to do with such an alleged survival. That concept is based on the long disproven theories of Margaret Murray.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) -

fourth_moon, 2004-10-27 03:27 pm UTC

(no subject) -

c_korone, 2004-10-27 04:11 pm UTC

Hi! My name is..

tatjna
2004-10-27 11:41 am UTC (link)

Um, tatjna, without the extra a or i, please. And thanks for the link. It seems to back what I originally thought, that nobody really knows where it came from. Interesting that the oldest one they mention finding was in India. And I'm glad they don't claim that the Charmed sisters invented it..

I still maintain that it really doesn't matter who used it first. I have no vested interest, being neither Wiccan nor Streghe. The reason I responded to your post was because I saw a flaw in your logic that the Latin name "lets us know that it is distinctly of a Latin peoples culture".

Also, your introductory post did come across very strongly with the impression of "we are a long unbroken line and we came first and are therefore superior". Maybe this wasn't your intention. But it's never a good idea to (even seemingly) put yourself above others, because this -will- elicit a negative response. Anyway, I reiterate my welcome and look forward to hearing more about your path.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) -

volva, 2004-10-27 04:33 pm UTC

Hi there!

fourth_moon
2004-10-27 03:35 pm UTC (link)

Nice to have you on board!

The term "Strega" came up a couple of times in this community, but all that I know about it is that it's some kind of pagan path, italian origin (well, or broadly from the area that's italian today).

Can you give me some details, like basic beliefs, or what deities are important?

I'm the tiniest bit envious about having a belief system to grow up with - I'm from a catholic background (nothing über-Christian, and nothing worse than being forced to go to church each Sunday), and I find it difficult to find a way for myself in the jungel that is modern paganism.

As for the "an harm it none... blahblahblah", that has always struck me as a bit pretentious. Not the content, but the pseudo-ancient english.

(Reply to this)

angeluscense
2004-10-27 06:15 pm UTC (link)

Seeing as being attacked, I do feel the "no Love" here but that is besides the point. I am not really saying that hey you don't know jack-crap about your past, history, family origin, etc. But what I am saying is that sometimes people need to look at what they say before they type. Everything I have typed is not something I am "pulling out of my arse" is that is a such a word. Yes I do have factual things to back it. But, I don't think I should spend the time or energy trying to prove anything to anyone. A lot of pain has been endured by not just my family but a lot of the Streghe. At least here in America, one can say that they are Wiccan, Pagan, Celtic, etc. In Italy it is still looked down on, and the streghe there consider themselves "religious". To think that with so much freedom comes so much pain for speaking one's mind is an awestuck thought. If you got offened then get up, dust off and move on. I didn't mean to start a fight, but I did mean to speak my mind. I can take the harrassment. I have before, I will again. But I can see why all this commotion for just me. All I did was speak my mind.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

volva
2004-10-27 08:09 pm UTC (link)

Seeing as being attacked, I do feel the "no Love" here but that is besides the point.

You come here and claim the most outrageous things about stuff that many of us happen to be so much better informed about, and when we tell you so and ask you where you got your information, you call it "being attacked"? Get real, chicco. I'm the only one here who's told you off with any obvious indignation, but I have not attacked you. Nobody has.

At least here in America, one can say that they are Wiccan, Pagan, Celtic, etc. In Italy it is still looked down on

Now I know you're pulling stuff out of your own arse, too, as well as that of Leland and Grimassi (and, yes, there is such a word, it's from a language called English). Did it pass you by that I actually live in Tuscany, Italy, Europe?

I don't think I should spend the time or energy trying to prove anything to anyone.

Yes, you should. In this community it's expected of you to prove your claims when there are doubts about them, but you haven't even tried, even though more or less everything you've said has been questioned.

All I did was speak my mind.

Indeed you did... but you still haven't backed it up with any references to your sources like you've been asked to. In fact, you have simply ignored the majority of the comments in here.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) -

tatjna, 2004-10-28 03:08 pm UTC

(no subject) -

angeluscense, 2004-10-28 05:27 pm UTC

(no subject) -

tatjna, 2004-10-28 06:00 pm UTC

(no subject) -

angeluscense, 2004-10-29 10:35 am UTC

About the blood sacrifice.. -

tatjna, 2004-10-29 02:44 pm UTC

Re: About the blood sacrifice.. -

dana3, 2004-11-01 02:52 am UTC

Re: About the blood sacrifice.. -

tatjna, 2004-11-01 10:28 am UTC

Re: About the blood sacrifice.. -

angeluscense, 2004-11-02 07:51 am UTC

angeluscense
2004-10-27 09:17 pm UTC (link)

Don'yt even say that you know what it is like in ALL of Italy. My grandmaother has to use L'erba della paura to wash the fear from her when the community knew of her abilities. I don't mean to make myself the enemy but when I say what I do, I expect a lot of disturbance because even pagans have theri minds on set ways. We should accept all people with love. That is the highest lesson. With so many people with co-dependency issues, trust issues, and acceptence issues, we have to rely on human kind and all of us to accept and hug. Spirit teaches us to love, but how many of us say "Man, I need to lose weight" or "I don't feel like dealing with them right now"? All of us. We need to love and accept. Even if we don't understand. That is why I am here. Not to start fights. But, to show all of US, even me, that we all need to work from love. I love you all, for being humans and for standing up to what you believe.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

volva
2004-10-28 06:16 am UTC (link)

Listen, chicco, nobody here is trying to take anything away from you, and, just for the record, I for one am not at all saying that you don't have people who use witchcraft in your family, nor am I saying that you don't sit on a lot of nice and exciting family lore. In fact, nobody here has said such a thing, and many have bid you welcome to the community.

The point is that you are not even telling us about your family lore; instead you are trying to rewrite the history of Europe in general and that of Italy in particular by claiming the most ridiculous things.

Many of the things you have been claiming here have been claimed before by, in particular, two individuals whose writings are proven to be anything from historically incorrect to outright fraudulent.

If you want to have your family myth accepted by other people, you will have to either drop your incorrect historical claims and stop referring to Etruscans and the Inquisition and what-not, or find historical sources that can back you up.

As it is we have to assume that you're either making things up, or that whoever taught you was lying to you.

---

PS. To reply to a particular comment here on LJ you must click the "reply to this" link immediately beneath it, otherwise the person will not know that you replied. You have clicked on the "post a new comment" which nobody but the original poster (in this case yourself) will ever get notified about, and it was just by chance I saw your comment.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

doobieous
2004-10-28 05:14 am UTC (link)

If Stregha comes from a long line of Etruscan tradition, I'd like you to provide Etruscan spells and translations, as well as a few lines in Etruscan. There's quite a few Linguists who would love for you to help them solve translations of Etruscan texts (more reliably than the shaky translations we do have).

I do find it funny you mention Etruscans being persecuted for their beliefs since Rome left you alone as long as you didn't threaten the empire. The Romans were little interested in converting anyone, and themselves were quite into adopting other gods. They also frequently called upon Etruscan priests for spells and divination as they saw the Etruscans as extremely superstitious (using divination to fortell the moods of their gods). They even used Etruscan priests to conjure lightning against invading Visigoth barbarians in 410 CE.

Oh but all of that is lies right? The Romans were big bad meanies who hated the Etruscans and wanted them GONE!

(Reply to this) (Thread)

angeluscense
2004-10-29 10:56 am UTC (link)

I will give you one Etruscan Rite. Once a year, near the Darkness of the world when all things die, we go to a secluded place. There we invoke the Mothers and Fathers of the Beginning, the Spirits that were before Time itself and offer a blood sacrifice. There ia an animal inparticular that we choose. Dark on the outside like the darkness of the world that spreads. Blood being of very high value to the Gods, if offered as a sign of worship, reverence, and rememberance. Prayers are said, with the blood signs are drawn upon us, and a ritual dance starts. Outsiders see this as a crude and horrible act. But to us, it is very ceremonial and sacred.

Of all the beliefs and religions in the world that I have read upon, I think the closest is Santeria to the Enu of Etruscans. Beliefs in Demons, Spirits Magic(k), and nature.

And like I had said before, The Roman and the Streghe are very different. The Streghe did not call upon Jupiter or Pluto. We were the outsiders as well as most everyone else.

BTW, I don't have the font that writes Etruscan, but if you want me to send some script to you via e-mail, I would be happy to. Thank you and have a good day :)

(Reply to this) (Parent)

edens_echo
2004-10-31 08:14 am UTC (link)

I think there was such a "no-love" thing going on, because you posted an entrance with no purpose beyond introducing yourself. That's all good and well, but beyond that, you've made very grand claims about your familial history, and are acting as the national spokesperson for the Streghes.

So it's not so much the content of your post, just the grandeur of it.

Straight from the community userinfo: Discussion and debate are encouraged. Temper tantrums and inane prattling are NOT. Belief systems and opinions are welcome. Fiction is not. Be prepared to back up claims. Be prepared for people not to agree with you. Doesn't mean that they are wrong, mean, out to get you, attacking you or that it is time to take your trad and go home. Stick around and reply

(Reply to this)

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