Not just another Jen ([info]anotherjen) wrote in [info]nonfluffypagans,
@ 2004-08-05 17:38:00
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Current mood:disgusted

My Last Post
I'm going to leave this community after reading the responses to this post.

When I first joined Nonfluffypagans, I really thought that the purpose of the community would be to discuss ways to make our Pagan practice realistic and substantial, maybe incorporating stuff about dark Gods and initiatory passages, the value of necessary destruction, ways to make a real difference in the world rather than just dancing 'round the maypole.

But over the months I've belonged, I see that the group is really geared mainly toward tearing people down. Nothing makes you feel quite so good about yourself as being snarky at folks behind their backs, does it? Only it's worse - you're not really doing it behind their backs; you're doing it in a public forum, so it will probably get back to them eventually. Even if not, I say words have power. And even if you don't put your will behind it, you are still slinging anger/dislike/hatred in the direction of a real person.

This doesn't just apply to people I happen to respect, like Oberon. I'm not a big fan of Silver Ravenwolf's books either, but you know what? She's still a human being, and she doesn't deserve abuse.

Of course there are both light and dark in the world, both necessary and both sacred. Shit happens. But that doesn't mean we need to add to that shit. If you don't like the way people do their thing, if you think it might have negative consequences in the world, then write to them and try constructively and kindly to convince them otherwise. Or just do your own thing in the world that you think will have a better result. But bitching about people and practices you don't like will have no useful effect. It's a waste of time, bad magic, and I wash my hands of it.




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[info]ronin75
2004-08-05 02:55 pm UTC (link)
This is not about light and dark/good and evil; it's about the highly visible "Wal-Mart" mentality of pop-pagans that are making the rest of us who are sincere in our studies look like children.

This is indeed a public forum, and I am sure that if Ravenwolf or anyone else wants to take issue with what is discussed here, then they would be welcome to the debate

As for me, I use this forum because it is easiest for me to communicate with others due to my schedule and where I live; as several of the members here who know me in person will attest, I have NO problem calling people out to their face. But if you would rather walk off instead of defending what you believe in, then that very action says enough in and of itself.

Ronin

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]anotherjen
2004-08-05 03:04 pm UTC (link)
If you are suggesting that I should stay just for the purpose of communicating my beliefs (perhaps with the intention of convincing people to change theirs), I think it would be much easier and lower-stress to write on my LJ, on my website, or publish another book. I have defended what I believe in, in this community before. I am not personally getting anything out of it, it stresses me out, and has proven itself to be a waste of my time. If anyone here is interested in what I believe, s/he can read my writing in one of those forums.

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[info]stephanielynch
2004-08-05 02:57 pm UTC (link)
Jen, are you saying that we shouldn't disagree with someone? If we don't like the way a public figure does something, then we should write to them? How would that work with George W. Bush? Isn't a political protest the same thing?

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[info]anotherjen
2004-08-05 03:00 pm UTC (link)
I also think that it's largely useless to sit around and gripe about Dubya, rather than put our energy into supporting causes and politicians in whom we do believe. Of course I enjoy a good laugh at W's expense as much as the next person; I'm not perfect, and I recognize that it's not going to help things get any better. But neither am I going to join a forum or community dedicated to slamming him. I'm going to belong to communities that have to do with causes I support.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]rainfallsautumn, 2004-08-05 03:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]anotherjen, 2004-08-05 03:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]elfwreck, 2004-08-05 03:38 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]srakkt, 2004-08-05 03:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]anotherjen, 2004-08-05 03:18 pm UTC

[info]rainfallsautumn
2004-08-05 03:03 pm UTC (link)
Are we really "adding to the shit" or calling people on theirs? Respect is *earned*, not demanded, and after enough stupidity, and wrong-minded, exploitive, unethical acts, respect is *lost.* Where's the honesty in remaining silent when celebrities do wrong? Where is the justice to those new people who are simply wowed by a "big name" and don't realize they've done wrong?

You can see it as "adding to the shit" if you like, personally I see it as calling people out when they've done something wrong and adding a bit of accountability to a community that all too often lacks accountability. BTW, I don't know about anyone else, but I've never said a word about anyone in this community that I wouldn't say to their face.

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[info]swisscelt
2004-08-05 03:12 pm UTC (link)
Ditto that. When I speak of Ginger Strivelli (for example), I say things that I've already said to her directly in e-mail. Actually, I have to credit Strivelli: At least she responded to my e-mail, and opened a dialogue with me. I can't say the same of certain other Pagan authors/celebrities. [Marguerite Elsbeth comes to mind.]

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]elfwreck, 2004-08-05 03:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]swisscelt, 2004-08-05 03:44 pm UTC
Ginger politics - [info]elfwreck, 2004-08-05 07:25 pm UTC
Re: Ginger politics - [info]happydog, 2004-08-07 12:16 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]anotherjen, 2004-08-05 03:17 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]wire_mother, 2004-08-05 03:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]anotherjen, 2004-08-05 03:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]wire_mother, 2004-08-05 03:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]nemtetsemnewty, 2004-08-05 07:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]badgermirlacca, 2004-08-05 06:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]nemtetsemnewty, 2004-08-05 07:12 pm UTC

[info]gothic_oreo
2004-08-05 03:05 pm UTC (link)
Actually, I prefer being snarky to people's faces, but as you said it is a public forum.

But go ahead, read your comments and go, since you are obviously above tearing others down.

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[info]swisscelt
2004-08-05 03:09 pm UTC (link)
This smacks of a temper tantrum. If you truly believe that "bitching about people and practices you don't like will have no useful effect," then it's also true that bitching about [info]nonfluffypagans will have no useful effect.

Stay if you will, go if you must...

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[info]anotherjen
2004-08-05 03:19 pm UTC (link)
Aww, how sweet of you to give me a Goddess's sendoff!

As I said in an earlier response, I don't believe it's going to have much effect, but I just wanted to let folks know where I'd gone and why. I hardly think you can call it a temper tantrum (implying lack of forethought) when I've belonged to this community and been pissed off by it for months, before choosing to take this step.

(Replies frozen)(Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]swisscelt, 2004-08-05 03:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]swisscelt, 2004-08-05 03:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]anotherjen, 2004-08-05 03:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]swisscelt, 2004-08-05 03:39 pm UTC

[info]happydog
2004-08-05 03:10 pm UTC (link)
But over the months I've belonged, I see that the group is really geared mainly toward tearing people down.

I haven't seen as much of that as you apparently have. The post about the Grey Council certainly generated a lot of commentary, a good bit of it negative. But the "I'm taking my ball and going home" mentality isn't going to change anything, is it?

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[info]lysana
2004-08-05 03:18 pm UTC (link)
Anyone who lies to people in public deserves to be called on it in public. That is what happens here when people like Oberon, Ravenwolf and others repeat fraudulent history or otherwise make blanket statements that are provably false about paganism. It adds nothing to the light to leave them unchallenged.

But please, do leave. You're shedding fluffballs all over our clean carpet.

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[info]anotherjen
2004-08-05 03:21 pm UTC (link)
Hey, if folks actually posted that sort of material with citations, it would be quite useful. Simply making fun of people is quite a different animal.

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[info]wire_mother
2004-08-05 03:21 pm UTC (link)
"This doesn't just apply to people I happen to respect, like Oberon. I'm not a big fan of Silver Ravenwolf's books either, but you know what? She's still a human being, and she doesn't deserve abuse."

there is a very easy way for them to prevent the abuse.

stop doing ridiculous things and consider the consequences of their actions.

in my faith (Celtic Reconstructionist Paganism, focusing on Gaelic, if you are interested), satire is a valuable tool. (as an aside, it is also a dangerous one, which is why there ended up being laws to regulate the satirists who chose to use the threat of satire as blackmail. checks and balances.) it is one of the means that the social order was maintained, while allowing the social order to exist without central authority. having no central authority in paganism in general, there should be some sort of institution which prevents con-artists from exploiting pagans at will. satire seems appropriate.

there are some who feel that this latest scheme from Otter/Oberon/whatever is ridiculous. perhaps he did not intend it to be so. in that case, perhaps he would do well to consider the reasons that he is being satirized here (and i am certain in other places, as well). sometimes, a person can take an idea that seems reasonable to him only because he did not consider an aspect that is obvious to some others. if he feels that we are in the wrong, he is perfectly capable of coming here to defend his point of view.

however, all that aside: if you don't like it, leave, as you are planning to do. that is your prerogative and right. why you feel the need to announce it so loudly is not something i care to speculate on.

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[info]anotherjen
2004-08-05 03:26 pm UTC (link)
A) Satire, IMO, is clever and makes people think. I believe that this group tends toward is pure and simple playground bullying, which has no useful effect.

B) My opinion may have more weight for some than that of your random LJ-er, since I write books on Paganism. Plus, I've been a member for quite some time, so I thought it would make sense to tell folks why I'm leaving.

C) There was also a teeny tiny chance that my post might cause someone to wake up and staunch the flow of vitriol.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]wire_mother, 2004-08-05 03:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]marginaleye, 2004-08-05 09:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]echthros, 2004-08-06 10:33 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]simianlovedoc, 2004-08-06 09:50 pm UTC
Satire - [info]ulbh, 2004-08-05 04:35 pm UTC
Re: Satire - [info]cktraveler, 2004-08-05 05:09 pm UTC
Re: Satire - [info]ulbh, 2004-08-06 12:22 am UTC

[info]lothie
2004-08-05 03:32 pm UTC (link)
Jen,

I wish you wouldn't leave. You're one of the good things about this community, sez I. Still, if it's too wearisome to deal with, well...I hear you.

I've only been here a short time. I'm new to Paganism, having eschewed it (for my own reasons) up till now. I was hoping to learn things, and eventually post things. So far I haven't learned all that much and actually much of what's posted here fits *my* definition of "fluffy", but I'm thinking that I should just wait it out, contribute eventually, and see where that goes.

I'd love it if you stayed around.

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[info]anotherjen
2004-08-05 03:35 pm UTC (link)
I appreciate that, but I'm really quite done. There are many other Pagan communities on LJ. Even the general one is okay. It gets a lot of newbies, but people seem to be pretty respectful and kind.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]lothie, 2004-08-05 03:56 pm UTC

[info]moodeln
2004-08-05 04:20 pm UTC (link)
I wonder if we've been reading the same community--I've read some really interesting discussions, some funny snark, and some great articulations of the frustrations people have with aspects of the pagan community. I have yet to see any discourse that actually makes me uncomfortable--someone saying "yeah, Silver RavenWolf's a fluffy, I bet she has no friends and cries herself to sleep, the nerd!!" or "I hope Otter Oberon Zell is killed in a burglary gone wrong!!"

There is a difference between an honest, opinion criticism--and, for someone who seems somewhat outraged when people haven't read your userinfo, I'm puzzled that you apparently weren't aware what this community was about when you joined--and being meanspirited. Perhaps you honestly do think this community is in the second category, but I have to tell you, I've seen communities dedicated to making fun of people or tearing people down, and this isn't anywhere *near* crossing that line.

But my main reason for commenting was just to point out that I'm sorry, posting to a community or mailing list announcing "I'm leaving!!!!!" and then sitting back and waiting for the "no, don't go!!" comments to flood in is just IMPOSSIBLY wanky. Insist you're taking the high road all you like, but it's an immature, egocentric move, and makes your "because you people are a sucking hole of negativity" message just look hypocritical and ridiculous.

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[info]aeddie
2004-08-05 04:40 pm UTC (link)
The fact that you wrote some books does not make your opinion more valuable to me. You may be enough of an expert on your subjects to get the books published, but that doesn't mean that you are an expert on everything.

The fact that you claim friendship and to respect Oberon doesn't do much for you either. It explains your upsetedness about the reaction to some of the previous posts and comments. Yes, he did a lot of good things in the past and may still be doing some. But, to blatantly steal others works to make your own more appealing does nothing positive for my opinion of him.

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[info]dinpik
2004-08-05 04:42 pm UTC (link)
Meanie fascist poo-poo head buttons for everyone!

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[info]swisscelt
2004-08-05 04:45 pm UTC (link)
Wearing mine with pride already, thanks. ;-)

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - [info]ulbh, 2004-08-05 04:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]rainfallsautumn, 2004-08-05 04:56 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]wire_mother, 2004-08-05 05:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cumaeansibyl, 2004-08-05 08:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]theantichick, 2004-08-06 07:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]nemtetsemnewty, 2004-08-07 08:13 am UTC

[info]swisscelt
2004-08-05 04:47 pm UTC (link)
Okay, I think this entry's gone on long enough. Nothing's above critique here, not even this community, but "You're mean and I'm leaving!" style posts just make the authors thereof look foolish.

Move along, folks. Nothing to see here...

(Replies frozen)


[info]bukyou
2004-08-05 05:02 pm UTC (link)
First, I feel compelled to include my usual response to these posts: if you feel you need to leave a community because you disagree with it, just leave. Putting up a "you're all bad, here's why" post is, especially in this instance, ridiculously hypocritical. That said ...

I see that the group is really geared mainly toward tearing people down.

We all see what we want. I've seen plenty of posts that do indeed tear down popular pagan authors. I see nothing inherently wrong with that. A lot of these authors publish bullshit, and I say publicly pointing that out is good. There's enough historical ignorance in the pagan community.

I've also seen plenty of informative posts. Questions asked and good, solid responses answered. I'm sorry you missed those. Sometimes hindsight isn't 20/20 after all.

If you think the things that have been written here about various public figures are attacks, abuse or hatred, then I'm happy for you. You've obviously never been a victim of an actual attack, abuse or hatred. I'm sorry people think your friends are fluffy. Your age, their age, and all the time any of you have spent "in the pagan community" doesn't really mean anything. I've known people who have been Catholic, actively, for fifty years and still have no grasp of the religion from a theological standpoint. It's common in all religions.

Now on the other hand, I'm the first to admit that I myself am an asshole. I'm pretty okay with that. People in this forum tend not to sugar coat their opinions with happy PC bullshit. I'm pretty okay with that. There should be more of that in the world, and in the pagan community specifically. If you can't handle it, well.. as other people have said: you know where the door is.

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[info]bukyou
2004-08-05 05:05 pm UTC (link)
Sorry, [info]swisscelt, I didn't see your above comment.

Well.. I'm not REALLY sorry, but.. I probably wouldn'tve responded if I had read it first. :D

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[info]cktraveler
2004-08-05 05:15 pm UTC (link)
I would consider this community to be fairly close to the edge of being a hypothetical dot_pagan_snark ... while I do wish there was more focus made on educating the stupid and less glee taken in smirking at them, a lot of the focus here is on finding particularly funny examples of fluffiness and laughing at them.

While this doesn't really do anything about the fluffiness percentage of paganism as a whole, it does make a lot of people feel better who might otherwise become jaded. Laughing with yashcherkes, right?

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[info]bukyou
2004-08-05 05:17 pm UTC (link)
You mean like [info]dot_pagan_snark?

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(no subject) - [info]swisscelt, 2004-08-05 05:24 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cktraveler, 2004-08-05 06:22 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]cumaeansibyl, 2004-08-05 08:42 pm UTC
Kudos!
[info]leeneh
2004-08-05 06:31 pm UTC (link)
Seeing all the fragile egos in this thread has helped me make up my mind about joining this community.

Thanks, Jen! :o)

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[info]cumaeansibyl
2004-08-05 08:53 pm UTC (link)
"Bad magic"? I wasn't aware there was such a thing.

I find destructiveness to be one of the most useful tools at my disposal, but then, I'm not exactly a nice person. Tearing people down means that they're free to a) rebuild themselves into something better, or b) shut up and go away. It's quite effective. :)

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[info]stephsicola
2004-08-06 04:14 am UTC (link)
Personally, I would have to disagree that this is a community about tearing people down. Yes, we discuss and criticize fluffiness, but I've also seen a lot of people willing to help other people find valuable resources for research. Personally, I'm proud to be part of an educated pagan community.

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[info]ursus77
2004-08-06 05:27 am UTC (link)
The problem with this community is that "fluffiness" is, I suppose, a subjective assessment. There are quite a few things on this allegedly non-fluffy forum that raises my eyebrows. The leftist-politics-disguised-as-religion phenomenon is probably at the top. The occasional whining from "Otherkin" for acceptance comes a close second.

And then, I suppose, the self-declared mystics on here who allegedly commune with demons, angels and thoughtforms would consider me fluffy since I don't have a mystical bone in my body. They no doubt would find me mundane whereas I find them pretentious (or insane).

All in all, I think this community serves a useful forum insofar as it demonstrates that "paganism" is not a monolithic force, but composed of dozens of sometimes contradictory religions. Everyone just has to keep in mind that while they are busy mocking others, there may be others who are just as busy mocking them.

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[info]arc_stormcrow
2004-08-06 06:18 am UTC (link)
Hi Jen - I don't post here much, but every once in a while I pop my head up for a moment.

Yes, there's a significant amount of venting that goes on here, I'll readily admit. It's not all that shows up here, but from time to time, it can be the bulk of the material. And, sometimes, it might not be deserved. Plenty of things that people complain about are little more than honest mistakes from newbies who simply don't know better. Some of it, however, is genuine outrage at things that go on.

As a community, we're pretty messed up. People like Isaac, Oberon, Silver... they are Elders for a large percentage of the community, but there's also a significant amount of the community that doesn't view them that way. Not to say that the latter group hasn't been influenced by some of their contributions, but they aren't always leaders for everybody.

However, whether or not they are leader for everybody, they *are* leaders for a large amount of the community. That places certain responsibilities on their shoulders. Due to their increased influence, they have to - or, at least, *should* - consider their actions carefully. What they do can have a large impact upon the community, both the part that looks up to them, and the part that doesn't. And that impact is external as well as internal.

A lot of people complain that Pagans, in general, aren't taken seriously by the general public. We've seen fundamentalists rant about everything from Harry Potter to Lord of the Rings. Normally, we can brush them off, appeal to logic, and people will believe us. Then a prominant figure in the community comes along and deliberately blurs the lines, and, in doing so, reverses a lot of work that folks have done. I agree that we shouldn't live our lives by the actions of fundamentalists, but we can hardly complain about their opposition if we contribute to it.

I've interacted with a number of authors and leaders - some approachable, some not. Oberon's responses to a number of very valid concerns (aboth both his book and his Grey School) were less than positive - he came across with an attitude of "Who are you to question me?" That's hardly a reassuring attitude in a community that often claims to have no gurus.

I think that this is the usefulness of this community - a place where people can bring up issues like that, to be able to express their frustration in a Pagan community that is becomming increasingly hostile to dissent. There's a number of issues that threaten the Pagan community right now, problems that we (in general) have caused - but we can't address them until we've articulated them, and made people aware of them. Sure, there's a lot of extra stuff here that doesn't move the community forward, and a non-trivial amount of just plain bashing, but there's still a baby in that bathwater you're throwing out.

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[info]blackfyr
2004-08-08 11:43 am UTC (link)
People like Isaac, Oberon, Silver... they are Elders for a large percentage of the community, but there's also a significant amount of the community that doesn't view them that way.

There's a difference between becoming an Elder by demonstration of the depth of your understanding and becoming an Elder by simple length of time. Unfortunately, Oberon & Silver have tended to show by their actions and writings that they are the latter kind of Elder. And, in Oberon's case, time has not weighed lightly on his wisdom or judgement.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]arc_stormcrow, 2004-08-09 06:23 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]blackfyr, 2004-08-09 08:21 am UTC

[info]tosk
2004-08-06 08:42 am UTC (link)
Its much more fun to stay and watch the few who are truly snarky and sure of themselves act out. I get at least a good laugh a week out of this forum.

:)

Ratatosk, Squirrel of Discord
Muncher of the ChaoAcorn
Chatterer of the Words of Eris

POEE of The Great Googlie Mooglie Cabal

(Reply to this)


[info]misslynx
2004-08-06 11:43 am UTC (link)
I'm of two minds about this community, actually. I can agree with some of your criticisms, but I also think it serves a useful purpose. Several useful purposes, even.

There are relatively few online pagan communities out there where one can find much in the way of intelligent discussion, and unfortunately, many of the ones where you can often devolve into predominantly bitching about the lack of it elsewhere, rather than making it happen where they are. After all, it takes a lot less thought and energy to say "Look at X! Can you believe how stupid he/she/they/it is?" than to actually engage in an informed, in-depth debate about X or anything else. I'd like to see a bit less energy devoted to sniping at the shallowness found elsewhere on the net and a bit more to actually creating an alternative.

But at the same time, there are intelligent discussions that take place here from time to time, and even the venting has its function, though really there are other communities more specifically devoted to that. Yes, sometimes discussions here do tend to devolve into "Look how much better we are than the pagan masses! Go us!" but as [info]tosk pointed out, even that can be amusing in its own way, and an opportunity for a little recreational ego-puncturing/golden-apple-rolling on occasion.

I've been close to leaving a few times, when the excess of egotism and dogma, combined with trendy cynicism masquerading as critical thought, has gotten to be too much for me to handle. But I've always ended up staying, and usually found it worthwhile to do so. However, I certainly respect those who choose otherwise. Everyone has their own threshhold of exactly how much of which sorts of annoying behaviour they're willing to tolerate; I don't actually find this community any less annoying than most of the fluffier ones, but it's a different flavour of annoying, and at the moment, that's good enough for me.

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[info]tosk
2004-08-06 12:37 pm UTC (link)
I have to agree... I really thought this was an alternative to fluffy bunnies, not a shooting range. But, ya take whats useful and make chaos of the rest.



"So many live in the land of Thud, although they think they're free"
- The Great Googlie Mooglie

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]docrailgun
2004-08-11 07:37 pm UTC (link)
While I agree with what you've said, the "mission statement" of this group includes several insults to what the arbiters of reality here feel are "fluffy" writers, so I'm not sure what you expected. While I don't feel those insults were necessary by whoever started this group, everyone needs to snark once in a while. I agree, though, that snarking is different than being totally derisive for no good reason. Snarking is calling people on their bs. I just joined this group, expecting the worst, but I've been pleasantly surprised thus far.

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